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Female Characters - Empowering or Endangering Equity?

deacon_jay writes "There's an interesting article from the NY Times (registration required) about what the depiction of female protagonists in video games is doing for female empowerment. Obviously, there are opposing views put forward, such as: 'Women as hypersexualized killers distracts attention from their unequal status' or 'I do not think playing these games encourages women to be victims'. I'm tending to the latter argument, but the article raises some interesting questions." For example, Lara Croft - icon for the power of the female, or created for gamers to goggle at? This is even an academically discussed question.

110 comments

  1. Are you kidding me? by immanis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Lara Croft - icon for the power of the female, or created for gamers to goggle at?"

    Sit down with every version of Tomb Raider ever made. Play them in order from oldest to most recent, and observer the increase in breast size from version to version.

    Then, ask that question again with a straight face.

    1. Re:Are you kidding me? by elid · · Score: 4, Informative

      It looks like things are changind. Did you read the NYT article? Quote: When a new Tomb Raider game subtitled The Angel of Darkness is released for Playstation 2 and the PC, expect a refashioned Lara Croft who engages in hand-to-hand combat with evildoers. (In previous games she either ran or shot them with her handguns.) Her infamous bust line, which prompted some women to complain that the character was gratuitously sexualized, will be reduced to more lifelike proportions.

  2. Sex sells by ThePeices · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Stylized killer uber women in games sells. Sex sells, its a well known advertising fact. Everyone wow'ed about how well rendered Lara's titties were when Tomb Raider first came out, and were annoyed that you couldnt get a full front view. Kids would spend hours trying to find the best position to look at. Nowadays we have Dead or Alive beach volleyball....and we can all attest to the niceness of them well rendered titties. Nothing's changed except for the graphics quality.

    1. Re:Sex sells by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But it sells games to undersexed adolescent boys, not to anyone else, which reinforces games as an activity for boys and young men. What bugs me about the cheesecake factor isn't so much the "offensive images" aspect of any single game, it's the fact that the grand preponderance of games cater to young straight male desire for ridiculously hypersexualized girls, which when put all together makes gaming less appealing for women. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, too, because then game developers can justify it by saying "women don't play games!"

      I don't mind cheesecake as a niche. I just think that the magazine publishing industry would be pretty pathetic if 70% of all magazines were Maxim and GQ. And there's all sorts of games where cheesecake is completely unnecessary, where the gameplay itself shouldn't have anything to do with pandering to someone's sexual frustrations - but the still put in the "fan service" and sex-doll crap just as a ploy for attention.

      Interestingly, I'm at E3 now, and the trope of note is the "death of the core gamer:" the consensus is that the market will have to diversify to thrive. The old traditional market has been called the "GWD" market - "guys without dates" - and the feeling is that that market is going to pay a constant amount of money per year on video games without much effort from the industry.

    2. Re:Sex sells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without even being at E3, I coulda told you that. Most of the (oh so quaintly phrased) GWD market is stuck in everquest right now, or bnet, so will thankfuly not be around to bitch about Lara Crofts incredable shrinking bust.

      As gaming goes more and more mainstream (mostly console gaming, as far as I've noticed) more and more chick people will be playing them, look at the Sims demographic for proof. Also look at all of the people who refer to themselves as "gamers" today, high school ninnies sitting around playing GTA, and yes, even their g/f's have experience with (second hand) gaming now.

      AHEM... Back the the point I originally wanted to make, there are alot of girl-gamers out there, and most of the ones I know try to keep quiet about the fact. You see, it is not characters that turn them off, but the PLAYERS. Try playing a nice game of UT2k3, Warcraft3, TA, or any other game online with you g/f, and see what comments get made towards her, if she 'comes out of the closet". Not pretty.

      Actually, alot of the girl gamers I have known have been offended by the very term "girl gamer"...

      (and yes, a girl has kicked my ass in TA before... damn her)

  3. I'm more worried about the players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm more worried about the boys who play these games, and their warped sense of the female form. I've met some guys who watch a little too much porn, to many anime cartoons, too much GTA, too many "Maxim"-type magazines, and have no real concept of what a real women is.

    Come on guys, you're getting off on a corporate logo. Go for something with a soul, something real, not a cartoon designed by dweebs in the marketing and design departments. Are you really that easy to control?

    Try thinking for yourself more often.

    1. Re:I'm more worried about the players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more worried about the boys who play with dolls and dress-up in their mother's/sister's clothes. They are more likely to be beat up by the boys playing GTA.

    2. Re:I'm more worried about the players by bluemeep · · Score: 3, Funny
      You mean girls aren't always 85 lbs., have a perfectly symmetrical face and DD breasts barely contained by a string bikini?

      Wow... Just... Wow. Do they still pull themselves up stacks of crates or try to jump onto moving platforms in lava flows?

    3. Re:I'm more worried about the players by Babbster · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm more worried about the perception that young boys are being warped to some ridiculous degree by seeing beautiful representations of women in magazines, video games, movies, etc.

      It certainly isn't a new phenomenon for boys and men to be fascinated by beautiful women, particularly famous ones. I had a poster of Vanna White (cut-off shorts, work shirt and hay - YAY!) on my wall as a youth and other generations of men have fantasized about Farrah Fawcett, Sophia Loren, Jayne Mansfield and Ingrid Bergman. Are today's boys in more "trouble" simply because Carmen Elektra's bikini is more skimpy than Farrah's was? And what's the difference if that idealized woman is represented through art, either analog or digital? Any way you slice it, real or not, these women aren't average or they wouldn't be so visually fascinating.

      Unless these males you're talking about are completely isolated from the rest of society (like NEVER leaving the house/basement), they know exactly what real women look like. I've never met any guy that thinks every woman looks, or should look, like a "perfect 10" - I'm sure they're out there but in my experience they're the minority. Frankly, I've found that concept to be mostly created in the heads of insecure women.

    4. Re:I'm more worried about the players by 0x0d0a · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, it's not impossible to both admire a hypersexualized image and still be able to deal with reality.

      You're making the same sort of leap that irritates me with people who hate video games that contain violence -- the assumption that people won't be able to distinguish between reality and the video game.

      Come on guys, you're getting off on a corporate logo. Go for something with a soul, something real, not a cartoon designed by dweebs in the marketing and design departments. Are you really that easy to control?

      Try thinking for yourself more often.


      And you're simply parroting propaganda put out by a couple of feminist groups. Go for what you find attractive, not for the social image that you're being molded to by a bunch of activists. Are you really that easy to control?

      Try thinking for yourself more often. :-)

      Seriously, images of perfect beauty have always been around. Mother goddess figures, Greek statues, paintings in the Rennaissance, mens magazines. Part of life is recognizing and dealing with life's imperfections.

    5. Re:I'm more worried about the players by leifm · · Score: 1

      I dunno, look at the woman most men are dating/living with/married to, most often they aren't super models, so I think most guys can separate the fantasy from their reality.

      --

      "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
    6. Re:I'm more worried about the players by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Unless these males you're talking about are completely isolated from the rest of society (like NEVER leaving the house/basement)

      Well done. You've just described a significant proportion of the gamer (and /.) crowd.

      they know exactly what real women look like

      They do, more or less, or they would spend a lot of time accidentally propositioning men when they leave their houses. Good for the guys, not so good for the women...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    7. Re:I'm more worried about the players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are today's boys in more "trouble" simply because Carmen Elektra's bikini is more skimpy than Farrah's was?

      I'm not talking about a Bikini. If a natural women is portrayed sexually, I have no problem with that. Nor do most feminists.

      Carmen Elektra's breasts are implants. Natural breasts don't look like that. Sadly, many men don't realize that they are attracted to surgical implants. I find it disgusting: This women has such low self esteem that she's willing to scar herself just to gain popularity. THEY"RE NOT REAL!

      You might as well masturbate to an Aibo or a plastic doll.

    8. Re:I'm more worried about the players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing the issue...

      Mother goddess figures, Greek statues, paintings in the Rennaissance

      Go take another look at those statues. Compare them to Camen Electra or Tomb Raider lady... big differences. The statues, the Rennaissance paintings show women with realistic boobs, and realistic waists.

      Heck, the women in many of the Rennaisance paintings are size 12-16. Today, that's considered 'fat', even though the average size today is a 14.

      Once again, I have no problems with women being portrayed sexually, as long as it's realistic.

    9. Re:I'm more worried about the players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more worried about the boys who play these games, and their warped sense of the female form. I've met some guys who watch a little too much porn, to many anime cartoons, too much GTA, too many "Maxim"-type magazines, and have no real concept of what a real women is.

      You're right, this is not fair. It is not fair that we guys have to look at all these beautiful babes all day, and then go home to our plan (ugly) girlfriends and wives. Damn you corporate america! Damn you for getting my hopes (not to mention *other* things) up!

    10. Re:I'm more worried about the players by kreyg · · Score: 1

      You're making the same sort of leap that irritates me with people who hate video games that contain violence -- the assumption that people won't be able to distinguish between reality and the video game.

      What I've been thinking for some time is that the people worried about violent video games are themselves the ones who can't separate fantasy from reality, not the ones actually playing the games. Combined with an "everyone should be just like me" mentality, perhaps their attitudes aren't too surprising.

      That falls somewhere between sad, pathetic, and more than a little bit frightening.

      --
      sig fault
  4. Empowering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hate when women say "empowering". Do women not have power by default? They need something to "empower" them? Empowerment seems sexist to me b/c it implies that women don't naturally have power.

    1. Re:Empowering by Daetrin · · Score: 1
      Do women not have power by default?

      Not when they're living in a patriarchy.

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    2. Re:Empowering by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you had a telemarketer ask for the "head of the household"?

      The US is not a patriarchy.

    3. Re:Empowering by Daetrin · · Score: 1
      When was the last time you had a telemarketer ask for the "head of the household"?

      What does that have to do with anything? I'm honestly confused.

      The US is not a patriarchy.

      Did i say the US was a patriachy? Did i say any country/society in particular was a patriarchy? Perhaps the fact that you assumed i was speaking of the US reveals something in and of itself? ;)

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    4. Re:Empowering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, your Slashdot home page says you live in Southern California, so I think it would be safe to assume you mean the US.

    5. Re:Empowering by AceM2 · · Score: 1

      A patriarchy? I hope you aren't including the US in that at least.. If you are, I think you need to explain it to my girlfriend that I have power over her and see how she reacts =) I'll stand back..

    6. Re:Empowering by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      What does that have to do with anything? I'm honestly confused.

      Holding the position of power in a family is one of the two elements of a patriarchy.

      Did i say the US was a patriachy? Did i say any country/society in particular was a patriarchy? Perhaps the fact that you assumed i was speaking of the US reveals something in and of itself? ;)

      The fact that most Slashdotters are from the US, and when someone makes a comment about society, the default assumption is US society, the same as "lira" having traditionally assumed to mean "Italian lira".

    7. Re:Empowering by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      If you want to get nit-picky i suppose we should make a distinction between a de jure patriarchy and a de facto patriarchy. Yes, she would disagree violently at the suggestion that you have legal control over. However she might very likely agree however that our current society prefessionaly undervalues and socially stereotypes women.

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    8. Re:Empowering by Daetrin · · Score: 1
      Holding the position of power in a family is one of the two elements of a patriarchy.

      What does this have to do with telemarketers asking for the head of the house?

      The fact that most Slashdotters are from the US, and when someone makes a comment about society, the default assumption is US society

      I was actually speaking of the world in general, although the US is certainly one of the countries of the kind i was speaking of. Almost all first world nations are de facto patriachal although not de jure. If you really want i can dig up a whole mass of figures showing that women are under-paid, under-promoted, and under-represented.

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    9. Re:Empowering by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:

      patriarchy
      n : a form of social organization in which a male is the family
      head and title is traced through the male line [syn: {patriarchate}


      Because we no longer generally use the concept of "head of the household" in the United States.

    10. Re:Empowering by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1
      Because we no longer generally use the concept of "head of the household" in the United States.

      You don't pay income tax, do you?

    11. Re:Empowering by AceM2 · · Score: 1

      I was just kidding.. Just as a note though.. Somehow through most of my jobs I've had a female that was either my boss or had some direct management control over what I was doing.. In every job I've had there were plenty of female managers and all.. That may just be because of the laws now, or where I am.. but I really don't think it's that bad anymore.. Some men in power will never look at women the same as other men in terms of capability, but those same guys are now scared to death of hiring a white male over an equally qualified woman or minority..

  5. I wrote... by flattop100 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...a paper for my media studies class, discussing how women's voices were used in Homeworld: Cataclysm. I basically came to the conclusion that women were portrayed as weak:

    It seems inane to be arguing equal gender representation in a video game, but such games are becoming an increasingly popular form of entertainment and can be immensely compelling. Accordingly, we should examine how female voices are portrayed. In the original Homeworld, there were 28 vessels, only one being voiced by a female. While Cataclysm has improved that ratio some, the voice acting has become more personalized. Homeworld's voice acting was very flat and devoid of individuality. However, in Cataclysm, there is definitely a characterization associated with different ship types. The Recon Probe voice sounds to be an alto in her 30's. Her voice is relatively smooth and often has an ironic tone. The Hive Frigate appears to be a soprano in her 20's, as her voice is high pitched and often seems strained. Fleet Command is personified by a female tenor in her 60's, and sounds like a self-assured chain-smoker.

    The implications of these positions are extremely important to note, for they are exceedingly subtle. The Recon Probe for all intents and purposes is an expendable ship, cheap to build and for the most part superfluous. However, the voice acting is very cocky and aggressive. Responses to the attack command are "Just say the word," and "I'll take 'em out." As a result, this particular female voice is derided and mocked for having male attitudes but being unable to act them out.
    The Hive Frigate is essentially designed to be bait for enemy affronts at the beginning of a battle, and then to fall back and act as a support vessel. This soprano voice is nervous and edgy, perhaps giving the impression of a young woman who is in over her head and is about to snap and start screaming. Contrary to the impression given by the Recon Probe, the Hive Frigate is a weak powerless character, once again forming negative stereotypes.
    Finally, Fleet Command is the tactics officer on the Mothership, giving suggested attack strategies and fleet directives. The voice is relatively deep for a woman, but is very self-assured and confident. It's a poignant aspect that the only secure female voice in the game is an 'old' one, suggesting that women only become robust and poised in old age.
    This is not to say that all the male voices in the game are cocky and confident. There are units that sound like teenagers going through puberty and even mentally insane men. However, the ratio of male voices to female voices is unbalanced, and the attributed personalities contribute to stereotypes.
    Few large-scale studies have been done on the number of female video game players to male players, but the proportion is heavily weighted on the male end, and probably will continue to be for a while. Therefore, it's important that all aspects of human representation in games are carefully considered. The voice acting in Homeworld and Cataclysm is one of the last things to be noticed after the gameplay, strategy, graphics, music, and sound effects, yet its subconscious effect can be very pronounced. This is most revealing when we consider that of the three (out of sixteen) female voices in the game, only one is assertive, and she sounds like Grandma.

    What do you folks think? Any ladies care to chime in?

    1. Re:I wrote... by Tyreth · · Score: 1
      The fact is, at least physically, men are stronger on average.

      Women have also been considered more timid than men on average too, but that is probably a bit of a cultural influence.

      It is also true that throughout history, the art of war has been almost entirely the domain of men. It shouldn't be considered strange, in my opinion, that such a field is dominated by males in games. Men are naturally more interested in war (for better or for worse). I don't think adding balanced female presence will draw much more of a female audience, because women mostly just aren't interested in war.
      My conclusion would be that different sorts of games would appeal to a female audience. Ones involving more emotion and relationships (I've heard the sims was popular) than destruction and problem solving. I say this because it has been demonstrated and suggested many times that women are more in tune and able to empathise with people's emotions, and less capable with problem solving - less interested in it. While men tend to be the opposite way around.

      Of course, there are always exceptions, but they don't make the rule.

    2. Re:I wrote... by i+chose+quality · · Score: 2

      gelatinous?

      --
      the computer is online
      i am not at it
      what a waste of ressources
    3. Re:I wrote... by Pxtl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      StarCraft is even worse - the only female combat unit is the air-to-air missile launcher, and that was an add-on unit. Every other female is a support person (the computer, the transport pilot, and the medic) - Kerrigan was an exception, but she was an excuse because they just wanted a character to turn into a Giger-esque chick-demon.

      There are some games that do women credit. Oddly enough, FPS games are pretty good at it. For example, Quake II has a male and female character model, and the female is very serious looking. Quake III continues this, including both serious female characters and sexy female characters.

      Japanese Fighting games have always been the worst culprits - there have been attempts to stray from the stereotype - one of my favourite characters in Bloody Roar was a big, mean, butch 40-something woman in overalls. She was ugly, but she could kick some serious ass, and was cool in a violent sort of way. She could also transform into a big scary warthog.

      The sequel removed her and replaced her with a blond in a super-high miniskirt and a lether shirt that cut down to her navel.

      I remember one SNES title called "pretty fighter" that had a cast consisting of a girl in a school uniform, a girl in a school gym suit, a girl in nurse uniform, a cheerleaer, etc.

      I often find that the portrayal of females is a good baseline to determine the quality of the game. Sexualized but not obviously so means the game is mainstream - nothing wierd about it. Hypersexualized games are usually tongue-in-cheek humourous about it, like the Tomb Raider and DoA games (play alone or play with yourself). The fun ones are the games that are outright bizarro-sarcastic about the sexuality of the characters, like Space Bunnies Must Die! - which was sort of a redneck tomb-raider.

      Very few games take themselves seriously enough to include non-sexual females. From the dev's standpoint, there's little reason to. Girl gamers are fringe in action games, and the males are adolescents who are still discovering the glory of spanking the monkey.

      The fact is that games are still pulp. There is very little "high-art" in games. While that continues, women will be sex-objects or neglected.

    4. Re:I wrote... by JackMonkey · · Score: 1

      You make good points, but I think the armies you build in RTS games like Homeworld or Command & Conquer reflect the current state of today's real armies. As far as I know, every army in the world is dominated by men.

      This plays into the traditional male role of hunter/gatherer. Men (on average) are physically stronger than women, and are therefore expected to perform physically demanding tasks like galactic domination and waging war on the Axis of Evil.

      If you look at how the US army is distributed, most women are communications officers or medics or some other non-combat position. So my best guess is that these games are less of a slight to female power roles as they are a reflection of the current state of combat.

    5. Re:I wrote... by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I have a couple of points to bring in....

      You spoke like a true post-modernist. First you pick what you want to say, then you find a source, then you procede to find what you want. Big woop, political correctness, sans science. Please notice your use of semi-qualifiers, such as "seems to be", and "sounds like"... Not quite the grounds for any form of objective proof, no?

      Also, observe the Freudian conotations, "this particular female voice is derided and mocked for having male attitudes but being unable to act them out.", why not just say "PENIS ENVY" and get it over with.

      From what I've read of your comment, you make it sound like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" proposition. If the female character is assertive, she get's mocked, and is a bad image. If the female is passive, it is a bad image. Great, no famales in video games then.. Oh wait.. then your a sexist pig, nevermind.

      As a gamer of a long time (sometime in the mid/early 80's), I have yet to actually form an opinion of any class of person from video games, television, or movies. And most of the people I know are the same, relying on PERSONAL experience to form opinions. Hell, you could even say that the KKK and the Nazis formed their opinions from non-media experiences. Meaning familial/societal.

      In my experience, most of these "covert media discriminatory conspiracies" are formed by media savvy liberals looking for office, and not by rational experience. These "descriminatory memes" are then spread by a sensationalist media, mostly for ratings. Just like all those silly sociological "theories" that claim that there are no inate differences between sexes, utter crap, proven wrong in hundreds of actual scientific studies. But opinion is more colorful.

      Also, if media IS sexist (strong if), then shouldn't we be looking for the actual cause? Media does not form itself, it is based on that which sells. Things sell because a majority of consumers find it desirable. Just like violent games, and sex on TV, people must watch it before it becomes ubiquitous.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  6. Re:Well... by Graelin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Although the (sometimes)crappy CGI and that nipple revealing suit would fuel your statement. It is simply not true.

  7. Re:Well... by Tyreth · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I hate it when people judge an actor or another person in the street by their looks.

    Who are you to say what she needs? What if she came here and read your post. How do you think she would feel? Is it right to say that about her? Is her role in life to provide you with sexual pleasure?

    I think this is plain rude and insulting to her. To any woman, perhaps, who is made to feel that her worth is related to her body.

    Though I shouldn't be surprised, given what I've recently seen about the American porn industry. To all you geeks who watch porn, I suggest you read this. Makes me sick.

    The way they trick women, and use the lure of money to get them to do things they didn't want to do, it's sickening and depraved.

  8. Equity is not equality. by Mad+Quacker · · Score: 1

    Obviously Lara Croft is for gamers to ogle at. What planet do you have to be from to not know women are the ogled ones? They know it, they wear the make-up and the pretty dresses. To say that she shouldn't, and neither should any women is some ultra-feminist idea that wants to make all women men and all men women, something that near all people - men and women - would not like.

    I think this article is just riding the wave of criticizing/blaming video games for social problems, grasping at straws for attention and income.

    --
    "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." George HW Bush
    1. Re:Equity is not equality. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ummm ...:)

      http://www.publispain.com/lara/nude/
      http://www .game-revolution.com/download/lara.htm
      http://www .puntinipuntini.it/lara.html
      http://www.laracroft .doo.pl/

      someone was going to post them
      well anyway you get the point....
      Lara is not about empowering woman.

    2. Re:Equity is not equality. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like a 12 year old boy. Grow up a bit, will you?

    3. Re:Equity is not equality. by Mad+Quacker · · Score: 1

      If that's what a 12 year old sounds like, then no thanks.

      Perhaps you mean grow into raging political correctness? Grow into giving up all the things you know are right because they don't vibe with the herd? If you've ever wondered why social change and social justice are slow to come, here is why.

      At least I had the guts to say it non-anonymously, and actually make a point. If you make another ad hominem attack or don't give a meaningful reply, we'll all know who needs to grow up.

      --
      "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." George HW Bush
    4. Re:Equity is not equality. by Daetrin · · Score: 1
      Obviously Lara Croft is for gamers to ogle at. What planet do you have to be from to not know women are the ogled ones? They know it, they wear the make-up and the pretty dresses.

      Now _that_ isn't sexist at all.

      Apparently the planet is earth. Women spend pleanty of time ogling guys, the only real difference i know of is that the girls have better standards for which guys they ogle at. (If i were a girl of the same general attractiveness as my male self, i could put on some sexy clothes and get hit on by lots of guys. However as a male, the only female who even notices me is my girlfriend =) Some girls complain about women being sex objects in games, but others say the problem is that there need to be an equal number of scantily clad guys to look at as well.

      There would be a lot more Chip 'n Dale type places if our society didn't perpetuate the stereotype that men ogle and women are the object of the ogling.

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    5. Re:Equity is not equality. by Mad+Quacker · · Score: 1

      There are scientific studies done on this subject. WHERE did these 'stereotypes' get started? WHY does society 'perpetuate' them?. Many who think like you are unable to even approach these questions in any meaningful way.

      It's like an alcoholic not admitting he has a problem. Don't deny human nature. Next you'll be telling us that if society didn't perpetuate the myth that women carry babies, we'd be seeing more pregnant men. (and of course some of you will want to say 'but but but that different we're still equal!!!') Only if we become a species of self-fertilizing hermaphrodites. To assume that the differences stop with hair, muscles, and genetalia is foolhardy.

      For some reason you seem to equate women focusing on their external appearance with sexism. Don't tell me that, TELL THEM! Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but we're not talking about exceptions, we're talking about a large majority. You pick a random 10 girls, and at least 9 of them will be wearing makeup.

      --
      "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." George HW Bush
    6. Re:Equity is not equality. by Daetrin · · Score: 1
      There are scientific studies done on this subject. WHERE did these 'stereotypes' get started? WHY does society 'perpetuate' them?. Many who think like you are unable to even approach these questions in any meaningful way.

      These sterotypes got started and were perpetuated because for a large chunk of history most human societies have been patriachal.

      The patriarchal system most likely got it's start when humans were forming proto-tribal units. At that point in time there was a big surplus of males, because a single male could impregnate many females, while the females could only bear one child at a time (usually.) As in many other species, natural selection therefore favored groups in which the males went out and did the more dangerous hunting activities, while the females did the gathering.

      Since the males were performing the more dangerous tasks (with the exception of pregnancy) natural selection favored size and strength in them. That size and strength gave the males the ability to dominate the females, and the fact that the male's genetic representation in the next generation depended on the number of females he mated with, he was encouraged to use that ability. Note that many if not all early human socities started out as polygamous.

      The males didn't care very much about the "attractiveness" of the females (ie how good of a genetic stock they seemed to have, however they judged that) but rather how many they could mate with. They might show a preference for mating with the most desireable females first, but that wouldn't stop them from trying to mate with every other female they could get their hands on. This correlates rather well with the observation that males seem to be more attracted to "average" females.

      Females on the other hand, since they can only bear children from one father at a time, are quite interested in finding the best father possible. Studies of primates groups have shown that females will "cheat" on the dominate male in order to mate with males they believe offer a better genetic selection to their future children. For males examining the females is of secondary importance, for females it is of first priority.

      In that old "natural" setting, both males and females tend to display to attract mates, however males display to attract as many mates of whatever quality as they can, while females attempt to attract one or a small number of "superior" males.

      The whole process of developing civilization screwed with this a bit (to understate it _just_ a bit) however in general, the males used their greater strength to create a patriarchy which encouraged the females to accept the mates chosen for them by the males. Females were discouraged from having power both because of the social belief that the males were superior, and at a more fundamental level because power might give the females the ability to choose their own mates, thereby threatening the base of the patriarchy.

      Since the females were encouraged to believe they were powerless, their means of "survival" depended on finding a good mate who could support them, but without any power of their own the only means of attracting such a mate was through appearing attractive. Although ideally they would want to target specific individuals, dressing up and wearing makeup tends to lead to a shotgun effect that targets all males in the are indescriminately.

      That explains how the stereotypes got started, and they were maintained for the same reason any power structure is maintained, because those in power like being at the top, and resist any change that would remove them from power.

      Now that the patriarchy is starting to break down, we're seeing some of those rules change. There are more and more women who don't wear makeup and don't dress up any more than the guys do. And more and more of them are willing to admit to being interested in ogling guys in one way or another. The societal standards from the patriarchy are still lingering on however (and some would argue about wheth

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  9. Dammit by RaboKrabekian · · Score: 3, Funny

    Enough of this empowering nonsense! No video games for you! Get back in the kitchen and make me dinner!

    --
    "Moderate drinking can help prevent amputated limbs" -- Abigail Zuger, NYTimes, 12/31/02
    1. Re:Dammit by isorox · · Score: 1

      the kitchen? What are they doing out of bed?

    2. Re:Dammit by Descartes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK, I'm posting AC 'cause I modded you down.

      I hope you're being sarcastic, but this is still bullshit. As a feminist (male, before you ask) I find this offensive. I hope you're not a racist too, but put the joke in racial terms and I think you'll see the problem.

      I know it's "just a joke" but that kind of thing send a subtle message that somehow for women to ask for equal status is silly.

      More on topic, I do think the article goes overboard. The author seems to say that having women in fighting games means it's ok to hit women, which isn't what the feminists they quote are complaining about. I'd say that it's great to include empowered women, and it is just as ok to hit women as it is to hit men.

      I think it's more about the context of the violence. The only real beef anyone quoted had was with vice city. I haven't had time to play much vice city what with finals and all but I remember GTA3 having a somewhat sexist bent (I still played it 'cause it kicks ass). How many of the women were just there to hang on the men, or be looked after like children? I think that kind of thing is worse than Kilik beating the shit out of Sophitia with a stick. The violence against women in GTA3 focuses on weak women that's why it's bad.

    3. Re:Dammit by Descartes · · Score: 1

      ok I guess it's not AC it just unmodded it all, crap.

    4. Re:Dammit by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      As it happens, I think that everyone should purchase products that focus on philosophic or abstract CS thought. Unfortunately, it turns out that that's not how the vast majority of society wants to relax. Unsurprisingly, they also dislike being fed loads of PC material when they're unwinding.

    5. Re:Dammit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  10. I find it interesting by toddhunter · · Score: 1, Interesting

    That anyone should care one way or the other. Guys like seeing semi-naked girls beat the crap out of each other. So what? We have made a form of entertainment, why should it then be tailored to include girls as well? If they are not happy with the situation, then girls are free to make and market their own entertainment that tailors itself to their needs. The bottom line is sex sells to guys. Games are just games.

    1. Re:I find it interesting by moncyb · · Score: 1

      Substitute guys where you put girls. Guys like seeing semi-naked guys beat the crap out of each other. What do you have? Mainstream boxing.

    2. Re:I find it interesting by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Ok, take Dead or Alive. Now, compare it to this.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  11. You Can't Have It Both Ways by Babbster · · Score: 4, Insightful
    There is a segment of the feminist culture that really does want everything and nothing at the same time.

    On the one hand, it will be argued that there are not enough female protagonists in video games. So video game companies step up and say, "you're right, we'll put some more female characters out there." Then, the complaint is always made [by someone] that the women are just there to be eye candy and that guys love ogling them. It always makes me wonder if these people want female video game characters to be ugly or if they want them to be dressed in ugly clothes. This despite the fact that women often spend thousands per year trying to look as pretty as they possibly can. I'm a fat, ugly, pasty guy but I'm sure not out there agitating for Kilik of Soul Calibur to gain 50 virtual pounds, nor would I ask that Mario get some warts.

    Another drum they like to pound is that women in fighting games send the signal that it's okay to beat up women. This one makes me think that those folks have no problem with assault when a male is the victim. Fighting games, in particular, are completely neutral in terms of gender. It's very rare that a female character is so under-powered that she's going to be beaten by any of the male characters. I can recall several successful sessions where I took on all comers as Sonja in Mortal Kombat or Chun-Li in Street Fighter (I like kicking, what can I say?).

    Finally, everybody and their grandmother keeps bringing up the killing of women in Grand Theft Auto. My first response is always that if you follow the storyline missions in GTA3 and Vice City you'll find that you won't have to beat down or kill many women, especially when compared to the number of men you inevitably whack. The natural response of these whiners is "That game encourages you to beat up hookers and other women for money." I then ask what percentage of prostitutes are male, followed by pointing out that it's entirely up to the player whether or not they want to beat up female OR male civilians to get cash. If someone is a mass murderer or huge bully in the GTA games, it's because they wanted to be and not because the game encouraged them in any way.

    What all this comes down to is that there are more powerful female characters in games than ever before. Whatever they look like, the message that video game women can be just as capable as video game men is being sent by the video game industry every day. As far as I'm concerned, any feminist who thinks that's a bad thing needs to take a huge pill...I'd recommend estrogen but that might be sexist...

    1. Re:You Can't Have It Both Ways by mdielmann · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm a fat, ugly, pasty guy

      Okay, that's it! You're going on my foe list! Now, how many other /.ers will I have to put in there...ah hell, back to my coding cave...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  12. Re:Well... by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 0, Troll

    I hate to break it to you, but she's an actor. It's her job to look good.

  13. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She doesn't have breasts because she's annorexic.

    Gesus, put some flesh on that girl. WHen her skin stretches over her scrawny bones it's frightening.

    Gimme a girl with curves, a natural girl!

  14. The altermative by smoondog · · Score: 4, Informative

    The alternative is Samus from Metroid. Do ya think anyone noticed (that 'it' was female)? Or maybe Dora the Explorer (Dear god why do I know that?) Female characters with ridiculous figures are the only ones that are noticed. There are lots of characters that are not. Samus, Dora, the woman from Zelda, the princess from Mario -- all don't have stylized figures. Hey guess what? Lara Croft was made for the women, like fark's boobies links are for women. (Anyways, I blame Anime, a really, really cool genre with some serious testosterone issues, IMO)

    -Sean

  15. Look at the on that is complaining by Burnsy3071 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Look at the pictures of the 2 women the article talks about. The one that thinks games show women in a good light looks ok and the one that is against how women are treated in games is nothing to look at.

    You know the one is just jellous that she isn't hot and can't control men using that.

  16. Re:Well... by Tyreth · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, I just don't buy the following logic:
    a. An actor must look good
    b. A female actor does not look good if she doesn't have "appealing size for Tuxinatorium" breasts.
    conclusion. Trinity does not have big breasts so therefore she needs them.

    I stand by my original post. She can and does look impressive without sexually exciting you. I disagree with both assumption a. and b. An actor can do an excellent job without looking good, and without having a breast size that you find just right.

  17. We have not achieved equality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    When a female genius wins the Nobel prize.

    We have equality when a female schlemiel gets promoted to her level of incompetence just as fast as a male schlemiel.

    (A slight variant of someone else's quote.)

    I'm not sure that the female protagonists in many current movies that make fun of the boys because they can do everything better than them *and* have ripped abs and flawless skin, are exactly a good thing.

    Isn't that a bit of an unrealistic standard?

  18. Bah... by darkov · · Score: 2, Funny

    Women as hypersexualized killers distracts attention from their unequal status

    As long as they've got big tits I don't see the harm in it.

  19. Re:Well... by tha_mink · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, I just don't buy the following logic:
    a. An actor must look good
    b. A female actor does not look good if she doesn't have "appealing size for Tuxinatorium" breasts.


    Then you, my friend, have not been paying attention.

    --
    You'll have that sometimes...
  20. Same problem by isorox · · Score: 1

    With any -ism, sexism, ageism, racism. You're dammed if you do, and you're dammed if you dont.

  21. I wrote... by flattop100 · · Score: 0

    jellous?

  22. Why do people want that? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A statement such as, "Women as hypersexualized killers distracts attention from their unequal status", distracts attention from the question of why someone wants to spend time watching women as hypersexualized killers.

  23. Re:Well... by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 1

    agreed except excess fat it bad too.

  24. Re:Well... by orthogonal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The way they trick women, and use the lure of money to get them to do things they didn't want to do, it's sickening and depraved.

    Yeah, my boss uses the "lure of money" to get me to do things I don't want to do, too -- like getting up in the morning and putting up with chickenshit and coding in java.

    Seems that for the girls of porn, keeping their sex lives private isn't worth as much to them as easy money. They could always get a job at McDonald's. Their choice. Not mine, not yours.

  25. The Longest Journey by ChadN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We talked about this on slashdot a couple of weeks ago, but "The Longest Journey" is a great, plot driven adventure game, with a lead female character who:

    - is well acted.
    - is realistic (or at least naturalistic).
    - is not a mere sex object.
    - has a journey of discovery that draws strength from a female perspective (I'm a male, so I could be wrong; but the writing and design are good enough that I think I'm not).
    - isn't pandering to men.
    - isn't pandering to women, either.
    - makes you care about her and her plight.
    - has LOTS of dialogue, but also good graphics and interesting story, so I wasn't bored.
    - couldn't be replaced with a male character without greatly changing the story (ie. isn't a gratuitous female lead character).
    - depicts, as part of the game, the complexities of male/female human interactions.

    If ANYONE wants to talk about the potential that women have as "lead characters" in computer games, The Longest Journey should be held as the example of how it can be done without fear of alienating all men, and without exploiting male sexual arousal. Probably no coincidence that is was a game designed in Scandinavia. I highly recommend it.

    What struck me most, was that this was a BETTER, more interesting, female lead character than ANY recent mainstream Hollywood movie with a lead female character (which are largely either gratuitous, or pandering to the perceived needs of women, or the perceived needs of men). April Ryan is a better role model for women and men, than most "role models" that are normally foisted on us all by the mass-market media.

    Lara croft is an unrealistic depiction of womanhood. But male video game action characters are largely unrealistic portayals of men, too. Getting beyond the sexual elements, Lara does succeed (I think) as a character because her womanhood is not gratuitous (she has big juggs; so do some athletic female friends of mine. It isn't like they turn into missles to kill the bad guys), and her scope is limited to an action role (ie. she isn't portraying a societal 'role model', she is portraying a heroine, which are almost always romanticized ideals.)

    I'm glad to see there is at least a trend towards women in computer/video games that is less purely sexual. I think, in some large part, it is because the technology is getting better at allowing "substantive" visual depictions (ie. facial expressions and interactions; see Half Life 2 trailer) that were harder to do previously. Whereas hot-looking bodies are relatively easy to do. I hope gamers are progressing towards more substantive portayals of BOTH men and women (at least as an option).

    --
    "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
    1. Re:The Longest Journey by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      The Longest Journey didn't treat women as sex objects...and sure enough, The Longest Journey also was not a commercial success.

      When a larger chunk of the game-playing demographic is not teenage males, there will be more products aimed at other niches.

    2. Re:The Longest Journey by carou · · Score: 1

      This just illustrates that commercial success doesn't always originate from quality.

      Have you considered *why* the game-playing demographic is what it is? Because that's what the Tomb Raiders of this world are aiming for. They aim there because such games sell well, and that's because there's a large section of the demographic interested in adolescent voyeurism.

      We need games more like the Longest Journey to break that vicious circle, not to wait for the demographic to magically change before targetting the new audience.

      See also the last section of this article in the Designer's Notebook at gamasutra.com, (free registration required, etc,)

    3. Re:The Longest Journey by ChadN · · Score: 1

      They are making a sequel. I'd bet that it sold well in Europe (the whole "adventure game" market is soft here in the U.S.), and I think it will have some legs (since it gets a lot of good word of mouth advertising). That said, your point is well taken. My comments were pointing out the artistic achievements of the game, not the business achievements.

      --
      "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
  26. It's simple. by CdotZinger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're not being superficial enough to get this, to see what's most obvious.

    What "they" want is simply to be the acknowledged--and, "they" hope, one day, legal--arbiters of righteousness.

    There's no position to decipher. They're Puritans, prohibitionists, frustrated Stalins.

    What most people most want is to dominate other people. When you don't understand what people are doing, that's probably what they're doing.

    --
    Your mouth is like Columbus Day.
  27. Actually by extrasolar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My experience has been that the older a guy is, the lower his expectations get as to the looks of the girl he is looking to court. Listen to a group of 15 & 16 year olds sometime---or maybe even ask them. Their expectations are usually very high because thats what they see on television or on movies.

    I am not judging this or anything, but its just the reality of the society we live in.

    1. Re:Actually by MrResistor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My experience has been that the older a guy is, the lower his expectations get as to the looks of the girl he is looking to court. Listen to a group of 15 & 16 year olds sometime---or maybe even ask them. Their expectations are usually very high because thats what they see on television or on movies.

      I think the expectations stay just as high, but the emphasis is on different things. As we grow older we learn that all too often the most beautiful are also the most petty, the most spiteful, and in the saddest situations, the most stupid. In other words, we learn that there are things more important than looks. I would hardly call that a lowering of expectations.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    2. Re:Actually by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      Listen to a group of 15 & 16 year olds sometime---or maybe even ask them. Their expectations are usually very high because thats what they see on television or on movies.

      Yet, given the opportunity, they will still screw anything that moves.

    3. Re:Actually by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      At a certain point, a super-model who will never speak to you (and probably wouldn't have much to say if she did) is less sexy than an average-looking woman who may actually sleep with you, and then say clever and amusing things over brunch the next day.

  28. Typical sexist crap. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 3, Funny

    The issues are staring you straight in the eyes and you choose to ignore them.

    Society puts far more pressure in women to toe the true line of how a woman should look. Any visit to a magazine shop should convince anybody that women are portrayed mainly as sex objects whose only tasks in life are to keep an eye on their weight and how to find their blue prince.

    Men do not have to suffer such humiliation.

    Regarding games the problem is one of violence and generalized lack of imagination from the part fo the game makers. It seems like they are addicted to violence in the first place, to make it a possible choice to beat and kill women and be rewarded for it, in spite of the amount of domestic violence everywhere, is frankly crass and irresponsible.

    Since its beginnings action games are depended heavely on violence to sell, obviously the talent of most game companies to figure out new ways to entertain people while at the same time promoting positive values (or at least stop promoting negative ones) is sorely lacking.

    If porno gaming is your thing, fine, but many females are uncomfortable knowing that strong industries like the gaming one can't come with better ideas but the stereotyping of women as sexual animals.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Typical sexist crap. by 0x0d0a · · Score: 0, Troll

      Any visit to a magazine shop should convince anybody that women are portrayed mainly as sex objects whose only tasks in life are to keep an eye on their weight and how to find their blue prince.

      Men do not have to suffer such humiliation.


      And men are portrayed as insensitive and expected to be breadwinners. Big deal. If you think that pop culture media is humiliating to people, I have to disagree. Pop culture shows computer programmers to be antisocial geeks. So?

      If porno gaming is your thing, fine, but many females are uncomfortable knowing that strong industries like the gaming one can't come with better ideas but the stereotyping of women as sexual animals.

      The gaming industry does not determine the psyche anywhere near as much as the psyche determines the gaming industry. Guys like looking at attractive girls, and will tend to throw down money more readily for a product if they have the opportunity to do so. Sorry. It's biological.

    2. Re:Typical sexist crap. by Babbster · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You say that "society" puts pressure on women to look a certain way, act a certain way. I would submit that women form HALF (a tiny bit more than half last I heard) of that society and that they have to take some responsibility for what pressure it exerts.

      As an individual, I can categorically deny that I've ever pressured any woman to wear makeup, change her clothes, lose weight or anything else. I'm not aware that any of my friends have, either.

      As far as media go, video games would be far down on the list in terms of influences on society. Music, movies, television...These three clearly exert greater influences on society in terms of shaping the way the majority thinks. Video games, if anything, tend to reflect the rest of society - and, more significantly, the rest of the media - as opposed to exerting any force on their own.

      I would write more here, but my thoughts keep getting derailed by your snide, somewhat pathetic jab about "porno gaming" and I don't think it's worth responding to your militant attitude in any more detail.

    3. Re:Typical sexist crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Society puts far more pressure in women to toe the true line of how a woman should look.

      The other poster put it best: women are half of that society, they should take half of the responsibility for that.

      Any visit to a magazine shop should convince anybody that women are portrayed mainly as sex objects whose only tasks in life are to keep an eye on their weight and how to find their blue prince.

      I don't see that at all. And why, if what you say is true, is this inherently a bias against women in society? Your statement reduces the role of men to a one-dimensional character provided solely for the benefit of women.

      Men do not have to suffer such humiliation.

      Riiight. Men don't have to worry about their weight. Men don't have to worry about their looks or muscle tone. Men don't have to worry about going bald. Men have no pressure on them whatsoever.

      Regarding games the problem is one of violence and generalized lack of imagination from the part fo the game makers.

      No. Violence is part of the human psyche, just as problem-solving and curiosity are. All sorts of games exist that focus on different parts of the human psyche. Games are not exclusively violent.

      It seems like they are addicted to violence in the first place, to make it a possible choice to beat and kill women and be rewarded for it, in spite of the amount of domestic violence everywhere, is frankly crass and irresponsible.

      You are portraying it as though you can only beat up women, or that it is some kind of goal to beat up women. If there are games out there that are like this, I certainly haven't heard of them, and they certainly aren't representative of the majority of violent games.

      The post you are replying to made a point that obviously went over your head. Violent games are almost exclusively gender-neutral. In other words, you can beat up men or women, it's entirely up to you, and there is no bias either way.

      The GTA example is a good one. People moan about the fact that yo can run around the city killing prostitutes and stealing their money. What people don't realise, unless they have actually played the game, is that you can also run around the city killing people in purple suits, ambulance drivers, people on motorbikes, or anyone else. Or you can just get on in the game without doing that. The criteria you choose to kill people is entirely up to you, and the game is neutral - it doesn't reward you for killing a woman rather than a man.

      You also work for men and women in the game - it is often women initiating the violence in GTA as well.

      If porno gaming is your thing, fine, but many females are uncomfortable knowing that strong industries like the gaming one can't come with better ideas but the stereotyping of women as sexual animals.

      Last time I checked, men worked in the porno industry too.

    4. Re:Typical sexist crap. by Chelloveck · · Score: 3, Funny
      Regarding games the problem is one of violence and generalized lack of imagination from the part fo the game makers. It seems like they are addicted to violence in the first place, to make it a possible choice to beat and kill women and be rewarded for it, in spite of the amount of domestic violence everywhere, is frankly crass and irresponsible.

      You're right. To be responsible they should only reward you for beating and killing men. White men. White heterosexual men. White heterosexual middle-class men. Because we all know that they're the source of all the problems in this world!

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    5. Re:Typical sexist crap. by asdkrht · · Score: 1
      Society puts far more pressure in women to toe the true line of how a woman should look. Any visit to a magazine shop should convince anybody that women are portrayed mainly as sex objects whose only tasks in life are to keep an eye on their weight and how to find their blue prince.

      Men do not have to suffer such humiliation.

      Sure we do. Look at all the hair replacement and growth commercials. As well, there are magazines that have guys on their covers, so it's not only good looking women that are on magazine covers. Of course, for a magazine to sell it has to "look good". Sure there might be more good looking women on magazine covers, but then I think that maybe more magazines are targted to women then men. Dunno.

      As well, there is all this spam related to my size... so it's there.

    6. Re:Typical sexist crap. by sanity_slipping · · Score: 1

      Hehe. I have. I have tried to convince women not to wear makeup (although I've usually failed).

      --
      I can feel my sanity, beyond my reach and slipping...
  29. What does she want? by Daetrin · · Score: 1
    A lot of games involve the characters beating up people, or killing things. Do they have a problem with this style of game? The fact that such games seem to dominate the spectrum (although has anyone done any actual numeric analysis of that?) might be a valid complaint, but that doesn't really address females in games.

    Are they upset that the females are frequently scantily clad and/or of unlikely anatomical proportions? That doesn't really seem to be the main issue addressed.

    The complaint seems to be that the females are in the same game behaving in the same way as the males. This is a problem because? I can't imagine that if developers were to follow her apparent desire and remove all females form games that feature violence that she or someone like her wouldn't be complaining that females are underrepresented in games.

    I guess she wants the female characters to show up, refuse to fight, and make a speech about defying the patriarchy before exiting the arena? I'm sure that would go over _really_ well.

    I'm all for feminism, but railing against the fact that girls are in the game, and they're acting exactly like the guys! seems to me to be a pretty dumb complaint. But maybe i'm just missing something.

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  30. You could not have exemplified better... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    ... the stupid mentality of sexist people.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  31. Re:Well... by Tyreth · · Score: 1

    Ah, I understand. So if I tempt someone to do something that is wrong, and they agree, then it's their fault and I hold no blame?

  32. Why? Women *do* take that role. by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously Lara Croft is for gamers to ogle at. What planet do you have to be from to not know women are the ogled ones? They know it, they wear the make-up and the pretty dresses.

    You know, he put it a bit harshly, but women *do* tend to take a role of passive attractor in our society. You don't see guys spending a significant chunk of their morning sitting in front of a mirror applying makeup.

    Furthermore, that role is one that cannot be reasonably blamed on a lack of action on the part of males. This is an issue that needs to be resolved by women changing if they want change.

    I mean, I don't hear any complaining from *guys*, despite the fact that we are the only ones that have to fill out a selective service card and face possible forced military service and death -- the most onerous of civil duties -- yet women and men both get the privilege of voting. The feminist lobby becomes remarkably silent when true equality is on the boards, instead of just the advancement of females.

    So if Mad Quacker wants to make an entirely correct observation of society, abeit somwhat rude, I'd say that he's certainly justified in doing so.

  33. Re:Well... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

    Well, then we get into what's "wrong". Morally wrong? You may have an entirely different set of moral. To some people in the world, a woman showing anything but her eyes is morally wrong. Those people feel that women walking around with their heads and faces uncovered are just as immoral as you view the porn actresses to be.

    In general, I don't really see the problem with porn actresses. As a matter of fact, I find military tours of service much more upsetting, since it is *illegal* to leave if you find that things aren't quite what you were expecting. Heck, you can be *shot* for that.

  34. What's the difference ? by a_peckover · · Score: 1

    Between a game that allows you to beat and kill women and one that allows you to beat and kill men ? Does it make a difference if one game allows such killing while playing as a female character ? Is it okay for women to beat and kill men ?

    By the sound of your response, it looks to me like you are saying yes, it is okay for women to beat and kill men, it is okay to apply double standards when it comes to men.

    What you and the games industry should be saying is that it is not okay for anyone to beat and kill anyone else. Even Grand Theft Auto makes this clear. Kill people and look what happens - your wanted rating goes up and you end up being chased by the police in overwhelming numbers.

    This isn't a problem specific to the games industry. Instead of learning to value women, society has instead learned to devalue men - especially in the entertainment media.

    Here in London, our own Mayor has stated that existing facilities to help and support victims of domestic violence will never be available to men because "the majority of victims are women". Incidents of domestic violence perpetrated by women against men are rarely even investigated, let alone punished.

  35. Re:Well... by drac · · Score: 1

    I think that the point being made is that focussing on the adult film industry for transgressions that are common in other industries is itself misleading and wrong.

  36. The Male Stereotype by robbway · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article mentions that if you're going to be spending a lot of time looking at a single character, that character had better be pleasant to the eye. That's probably the number one reason right there.

    Most importantly, most characters in video games are male. Of all those male characters, almost all have an impossibly ripped body of unnatural proportions. The torso of the video game male is usually almost double the size of what is possible. And a large majority of the time, the males are scantily clad.

    Please note that the depiction of the male is as outlandish as the depiction of the female. This depiction is exploitive of the video game character. Since they're not real, it doesn't matter. It's all about fantasy. If a fantasy isn't intersting or intriguing, nobody wants to see it, let alone play with it.

    1. Re:The Male Stereotype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Please note that the depiction of the male is as outlandish as the depiction of the female. This depiction is exploitive of the video game character. Since they're not real, it doesn't matter. It's all about fantasy. If a fantasy isn't intersting or intriguing, nobody wants to see it, let alone play with it.

      Exactly. It would be like watching a porno flick where the people in it were ugly, lasted a couple of minutes, and then rolled over and fell asleep.

  37. Is it just me, or... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one here who finds the way most posts say "females" instead of "women" mildly disturbing?

    1. Re:Is it just me, or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems to be a regional thing. I moved out to OH a few years ago, and I've found that the two words are used pretty much interchangably. Feels wierd to me, too.

    2. Re:Is it just me, or... by pdbogen · · Score: 1

      "Female" refers to the anatomical female of the species capable of producing offspring following fertilization by a male. "Wom[a|e]n" is something else entirely. There's probably a reason people here are using one and not the other.

  38. It's up to women. by TheLink · · Score: 1

    AFAIK women prefer to chat than to play games. So games are targeted at men.

    If that's because women don't like the existing computer games, hey nobody is stopping them from making games for themselves. PC hardware is cheap. Plenty of tools around. And there's Google and the Internet.

    Women take 50% of the blame in
    "empowering/endangering equity". You want the power, you sign up for the blame too.

    Y'know there are a LOT more important things to focus on for gender equity than complaining about sexism in video games. Check out the state of women in India, Pakistan, various retrogressive muslim countries for instance. Places where it's common to have society/culturally sponsored murdering of women.

    In other places (US, EU), women have enough opportunities to get where they want.

    --
  39. Yeah yeah... Anyone see the latest Lifetime movie? by AntiGenX · · Score: 2, Funny


    How about all those movies on the Lifetime Channel where the women kill their husbands? What kind of messages are those sending?

  40. Obviously I think it depends... by StressGuy · · Score: 1

    The Lara Croft's I've seen (I've not seen the early versions of the game) are a bit of an exagerration while the protagonist for Resident Evil: Code Veronica seems to be well potrayed.

    On the other hand, the Id Software protagonist from Wolfenstein 3D through Quake II all seem to be hyper-male types while Gordon Freeman is just a scientist in an extrodinary situation.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sure this is a great topic to spur discussion but my opinion is that we are painting it with too wide a brush.

    --
    A goal is a dream with a deadline
  41. Re:Why? Women *do* take that role. by blackwidowb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You know what, this is true. I can attest to that, being a female myself and all. What I can say is that most females want, no *need*, attention. They need compliments and admiring looks to feel needed. That's just the way we seem to work. I work that way more often than I want to admit, and it seems that other women do too.

    However, there is a difference between wanting to be admired and wanting to be sexualized. Women want to be admired, complimented, and, sometimes, to feel sexy. Most do not want to have to beat men off with clubs because they are so overdone, or to have to try to compete for attention with women who *do* need to beat men back. In my mind, there's a difference between a powerful female assasin of fairly modest to large proportions in a skin-tight leather catsuit, and a female assasin with oversized breasts, a three inch waist, and her suit unzipped to her belly button.

    Attractive protagonists aren't the problem. Even powerful, sexy protagonists aren't the problem. *Oversexualized* protagonists, beyond what even most normal women would want to be, are the problem. These are what can put women off from video games.

  42. Thoughts from a game developer by jparker · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a game developer, I see a key reason that female characters are hyper-sexualized that has been missed. It's not really that people want huge breasts (though some people argue for that in design meetings, they are usually ignored); the real issue is that we want the characters to be attractive, and modeling a pretty face is damn hard, but a slim waist and large breasts are easy. If it was easy to make a female (or male) character attractive without exagerating their physical characteristics, many would do that instead, but there are several technical issues preventing that. Poly limits and texture resolution create a large problem here, and are compounded by having to present all this on an NTSC screen, which is 640x480 and blurry as hell. Often a face, regardless of the detail you put in, comes out on the screen as a 64x64 pink blob with dark spots for eyes. Also, what makes a face "pretty" is very subjective, while large breasts are (largely) universal.
    Sure, the fact that most developers are guys has an impact, but when deadlines are tight and the publisher keeps telling you that the lead isn't pretty enough, the temptation to forgo all the hard work of reworking her face again and just stretch some "torso verts" becomes overwhelming.

  43. Re:Why? Women *do* take that role. by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

    Hmm. I never really thought about it that way. Interesting.

  44. The real problem... by JackMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think stores, restaurants, and all other businesses should stop hiring attractive women for any kind of sales position, because they are obiously only hired to take advantage of men's need to ogle them. Do you know how much useless crap I've bought from pretty girls? :-p

    But, seriously...where is this going to end. People need to realize that there are differences between men and women. Does this mean that a woman is less able than a man? In some respects, yes...but a man is less able than a woman in some respects, too. Does that mean you shouldn't respect the other sex? Hell no.

    If there were no differences between the sexes, we would all be hermaphrodites, or we would all reproduce with ourselves...and who would want to live in a world like that?

    Video games are like epic novels...play them and enjoy them. The protagonists are idealic respresentations of heroes and heroines. The men in games are typically as unrealistic as the women, but yes, there are some games that pander to males. But if gamers weren't inside ogling the women in those games, they'd be out in the real world ogling high school girls.

    All I'm saying is people who are frustrated with their own shortcomings shouldn't take out their aggression on everyone else by spewing words like "sexist" and "pigs".

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play DOAXBV. ;-)

  45. Re:You could not have exemplified better... by Burnsy3071 · · Score: 0

    Maybe, but that's what happens when you work for tech support for a lot of sorority girls. The stereotypes are not always correct, but they are a LOT of the time.

  46. Interesting, reminds me of when I tried... by StressGuy · · Score: 1

    pencil drawings back when I was in college. I spent a lot of time trying to get body proportions right and figuring out how to best do faces. Over time, and with the advice of some real artist, I learned a few tricks. One thing in particular about female faces was that they were easier to draw because they tended to have less fine detail - especially if you draw them assuming they are wearing make-up. (another advantage of drawing female faces is that I tended to give them earrings with reflective geometric shapes so I could practice drawing those as well).

    Anyway, I would imagine that if you got down to that level of rendering detail, it's probably easier to make an attractive female face than an attractive male face.

    But I could be wrong, your post just reminded me of a process I went through about 20 or so years ago.

    --
    A goal is a dream with a deadline
  47. Typical sexist retort. by cgenman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Action games do and have always relied upon violence because violence is far easier to simulate than creation, and the need for action is a repressed desire to be exploited. This is not necessarily a failure of imagination (it can be quite creative), but a reality of the current market. For every tetris that made it into public consciousness, there are about a hundred that were ignored in droves because the public doesn't find abstract gaming to be particularly gripping.

    Since the introduction of Chun-Li in Street Fighter 2 (a reasonably endowed female, at least compared to some of the other characters in the game) fighting females have been getting more and more popular. Before then, women were largely reduced to the role of helpless princess to be rescued, medic, or very occasionally villaness (whose attempt to actualize was a defining factor in her evilness). Now they can shape their environment, go toe-to-toe with the 900 lb walking dumptrucks that pass as men in videogames and can do anything that men can do. With the general lack of women as leading action-hero roles (except in terrible game-to-movie conversions) strangely a large cultural spearhead of this has come from, well, videogames.

    Does violence happen against protagonist women in videogames? Yes, but the depiction of violence against women has so often been against helpless women that the two separate concepts have become intrinsically linked. It is almost assumed in this culture that *any* violence against women will expose fragility, which is not the case (come out to boston for a women's football match sometime). The problem is the depiction of women being hit by the enemy and falling down crying, not the depiction of women being hit by the enemy and who in turn beats him to a bloody pulp. All protaganists in videogames hit back, and eventually win. That's empowering.

    What's disempowering and what you touched upon was the hypersexualization of the female figure in videogames, which is a real problem. Videogaming is probably not the arena to fight this larger societal problem, however. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, the characters need gross anatomical differences with wildly differing dress styles to be able to tell the two apart. And with men and women's violation of the age old long-hair-is-woman, short-hair-is-man code, there is very little to be able to distinguish between 32 pixel by 32 pixel male and female characters besides huge hips and big breasts vs giant shoulders and stunted legs. That part probably can't be stopped any time soon. The role variation needs to be upped, as does the number of female characters whose sexuality or sex life just doesn't come up, but arguing against oversized breasts in a medium whose plumber posterboy features a nose the size of his head is like shouting at the wind.

    Either way, with female empowerment but continued female sexualization we've taken one step forward and no steps back. That doesn't mean that there is no ground left to cover. That means demonizing a medium which has overall improved the perception of women in our culture is shooting your friends.

    If you want a target, start with those aformentioned magazine shops, preferably "YM" and "Cosmo Girl."

  48. (OT) small historical correction by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    And with men and women's violation of the age old long-hair-is-woman, short-hair-is-man code

    Both wore long hair, and men had beards and mustaches, up until around WWI, 1914-1918, and I believe it was because gas masks don't work well with facial hair. I am not sure why long hair got the shove at the same time, but that's the way it looks...

  49. Shut up, whiners by rhuntley12 · · Score: 1

    Sex sells, I like staring at a beautiful woman with huge boobs when I'm playing a game. I don't want to be smashing floors, and tossing my blubber at bad guys as a 400 pound woman wearing spandex. I mean seriously, you don't like how the women are portrayed? Don't buy the game. Why do people feel the need to bitch about every single thing, and ruining others enjoyment? You don't hear me complaining about having to play as a buff guy wearing shorts and no shirt. Look at Dead or Alive 3, imo one of the best fighting games out there, along with soul calibur 2. The girls are damn hot, but the game is great too. I hear females bitch about how the females are portrayed, but they don't mention the dudes. Basically what I'm trying to say is. Shut up you fat hag, just because guys would rather stare at pixels then look at your whale of an ass in spandex, doesn't mean you have to whine and complain. Well err, gets me riled up I guess

  50. GWD? by geoswan · · Score: 1
    Most of the (oh so quaintly phrased) GWD market is stuck in everquest right now...

    Sorry, what is "GWD"? Games of Wide Destruction?