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Neuros Gets (Beta) Linux Support
Jahf writes "/. reported awhile back that the folks at Digital Innovations (makers of the Neuros portable MP3 player) were teaming up with Xiph.org (makers of the Ogg Vorbis audio format) to release both native Linux support for synchronizing the Neuros and firmware support in the Neuros for Ogg Vorbis files. Today they announced in this forum posting that the native Linux client has reached beta. Nice to see this happen ... I can ditch my last Windows install (well, I'll keep it for a couple of games). It is a command-line utility, no amazing fancy UI, but I'm sure plenty of folks will work to remedy that in some fashion or another and I'm happier with a rock-solid command-line util than a buggy GUI app anyway since I already do all my ripping/encoding/freeDBing/etc from scripts in a shell (so I can just add this as the final step). Next on the list is Ogg Vorbis support ... not done yet but hopefully close. w00t!"
Show your support for this and buy a Neuros player.
These players are great. If I wanted a nice big music player I'd chomp down on this fast, but 4.5x2.5x1.5 (not exact) is a bit big to just throw in my pocket considering the size of some of the players out there.
I'm happy that companies are starting to tune digital music players for the linux crowd and starting to get ogg support on them, but would it kill to have a small, no frills player that can play vorbis files?
I do security
positron
when these MP3 players get marketed as "portable Ogg Vorbis players" instead. (Yeah geeks have strange wet dreams I know.)
Can't the editors at least remove the lame stuff from the submission text?
... I can ditch my last Windows install.
:)
... not done yet
Nice to see this happen
Why does this need to be in the submission?
(well, I'll keep it for a couple of games).
Ok now I'm confused.
no amazing fancy UI, but I'm sure plenty of folks will work to remedy that
Good attitude!
I'm happier with a rock-solid command-line util than a buggy GUI app anyway
Or not..
I already do all my ripping/encoding/freeDBing/etc from scripts in a shell
Too l33t for me!
Next on the list is Ogg Vorbis support
Ok, so a non-story.
w00t!
I don't think this one needs an explanation.
no buggy GUI...command line?
all of the sudden I had this vision:
#sync --usb --neuros -tgif ~/audio/music/OGG/
comparing file lists........
syncing files.........
error: device block full reload.
#_
"What the hell does THAT mean?"
#man sync
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
Free Software works on a system of replacing, And originally Replacing UNIX. Now it is replacing Microsoft. But now many Open Source advocates are saying they dont mind Windows but use Linux anyway, and keep a second Windows partition. Why not just use Microsoft Windows and cygwin for all your geek stuff.
I can ditch my last Windows install
/. And another dollar every time they end up re-installing Windows when it didn't work out as they dreamed.
I wish I had a dollar every time I heard that on
but I'm sure plenty of sexually repressed geeks will work to remedy that in some fashion.....
Yeah they will. With a simple "RTFM" comment.
I agree, but some people dont care about all this compression hype, its all vapourware, PCM all the way!
Check out what xiph.org have to say about this:
Please do not run out and purchase this device immediately, assuming that Vorbis playback will be supported by Neuros. The firmware we write for them (codenamed 'NeuRosetta') will be documented in its creation, and we'll have a site up to document the progress. When that site says it's 'safe' to buy the unit, then it's safe.
"I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy"
License issue aside, which sounds better (VBR)ogg or (VBR)Mp3? I can't tell them apart.
This seems to be all the rage on UseNet.
That Neuros device looks pretty sweet.
with half a fucking brain.
ooooohhhh Ogg Vorbis. Oooooooohhhh Captain Picard. Ooooooooooh Matrix. Oooooooooohhhhh Lord of the Fags. OOoooooooohhhhh Johnny Carmack please pound my ass. Oooohhhhohhoohhh command line. Ooooooohhhhhhh you fiend. I am a fanboy and I will pound your ass with uneducated remarks and ignorant zealotry until the source dries up.
It sadens me that it's possible a ms-linux solution would take over... the good thing about it is that most of the system is still open source and modifiable. The internals are well and publically documented for most functions of the system. It's a more powerful and secure system to begin with, anything MS does that undermines the current stability of linux will be fixable since it will have to be gpl'd and thus for everything screwup ms includes, someone can put a patch on their screwed up source that fixes it back to the way it should be without removing anything that is needed for compatibility. They could still manage a nice buggy port of their gui though...
MS will use the kernel straight, no new code will be introduced there. Everything non kernel related will be clean and not contaminated by any GPL code. All this will remain proprietary and thankfully closed.
And what is this bias that MS will "screw it up"? MS hires the same programmers that come out of the same schools that Linux coders do.
...first have to wait for MS to move before they can be "original" and "different". They can't act on their own, every move first depends on what Bill does. They then do the opposite. All Bill has to do to kill Linux is pronounce it cool, the Zealots would have to then abandon Linus simply because they would have to disagree with Bill.
you generally use your portable while you travel in bus or go jogging etc.
the ambient noises disort the sound anyway so you don't have to use full 192Kbps quality for your audio, besides the memory in the devices is limited and still bit expensive to expand.
how's your headphones? do you really carry around high end half open/closed headphones that cost $1000 when you go jogging?
no, you use the $10 button headphones that you got cheap from some junk shop --> no need for the extra quality
Currently you can get portable mp3 player with 128Mb memory for less than $100
how about getting one of those cheap mass produced mp3 players and whip up script that transcodes the ogg on your hard drive to 64-160kbps mp3 just before transferring it to the player
you could still enjoy the quality of oggs on your high end speaker system at home since the files are oggs on your hd
But does it support Og.. Oh, never mind.
From the Neuros Forum thread pertaining to ogg Vorbis, from the head of the Neuros product development:
(...)we do wish to open up our system so that third parties can contribute to the product's development amd leverage our own efforts.
Good! another smart company who wants to help the user community rather that stop them!
On their site, Digital Innovations say the NeuRosetta (ogg vorbis for neuros) should soon (sometime in June?) be available for the Neuros HD... I was really hyped up by the Neuros 128MB / 20GB Upgrade Bundle (tho does the upgrade bundle include the Neuros 128? If not, the price tag is beyond my limited student resources...) But will NeuRosetta work on other versions of the Neuros than the Neuros HD? Coz an HD mp3 player is maybe a bit big for all my uses...
Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
1) Well, on their site Digital Innovations say they intend to open up the device for the community. This way we should be able to quickly get some good hacks for the player (i'm not expecting D.I. to *support* these hacks), thus enhancing the player for free!
.ogg file. From what I skimmed, Ogg can contain mp3 or mpeg4 even!
2) Ogg vorbis support: we're not talking about whether Ogg sounds better on the player. Remember that most people have secondary players for their audio files (like... their PC?) which can take full advantage of the higher quality (?) of the OggV* files. If the player supports OggV, then all those guys who are turning to OggV will be able to listen to their precious OggV collection with this player
3) I'm not sure about this, but look at the HD Upgrade version of the Neuros player. It seems that with it you can quickly switch from a solid-state device, which you take out for your jogging session. to the HD version for that long car trip, with one device!
*OggV = Ogg Vorbis
As a side note, remember that Ogg != audio. The ogg format, if you checked out the RFC that was posted some time ago, is a *container* for media streams. Vorbis is the actual audio format, contained in the
Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
You should not use --r3mix. It is old and deprecated - its removal from LAME has been considered. You should use LAME 3.90.2 with --alt-preset standard (aka "APS", ~ 192kbps VBR) or possibly --alt-preset extreme ("APX", ~ 256kbps VBR) for trickier encodes (classical, jazz, rock, experimental). Those without space concerns still wishing to use mp3 can try --alt-preset insane ("API", 320kbps CBR).
/. too, I'll leave it to you to find üs, but the rules are:
.log, add an .md5 md5sum for the log and audio files to complete the rip.
The --alt-presets are optimisations for quality and have been very thoroughly tested by hydrogenaudio. They represent the current state-of-the-art in mp3 compression.
For a scale, quality (normally transparent up to lossless) and size (50-80MB up to 300-700MB) go roughly (Qx represents Vorbis 1.0 quality number): APS < Q6 < APX < Q7 < Q8 < API < Q9 < Q10 < FLAC
A music sharing network for people who care about quality exists. Because the bad guys read
Rip with Exact Audio Copy 0.9b4 (secure mode, accurate stream, NO C2, no normalisation, no read or sync errors, only complete discs with no missing audio tracks, save a log file) and encode to MP3s (LAME 3.90.2 or 3.92), Oggs (Vorbis 1.0) or FLACs. Tag correctly - for mp3 ONLY use id3 v1.1 and id3 v2.3.0 - with year and ideally genre from allmusic, name scheme "%A - %C\%A - %C - %N - %T" normal, various artists discs - name tracks "Artist / Title" and use name scheme "%C\%C - %N - %A - %T", add " (OST)" to album name for soundtracks. Move log into directory, rename to directory name +
Th package deal includes both the 128mb and 20gb backpacks. They are interchangeable, allowing you to switch out the smaller (in size and space) pack for the larger one. And the Positron (and eventual Neurosetta) should work on all versions of the Neuros. -Weirdo513
The hard drive is a "backpack". Does that mean an external USB hard drive would work instead of the 20GB upgrade?
;) )
What's the _actual_ range you've experienced with it?
How's the quality of the transmitted sound?
would you give it to your girlfriend? (virtual ones don't count
> I'm not Seth.
Fuck off, Seth.
There are already commodity DSPs for mp3 decoding. Making an OGG decoder would require either a faster general purpose CPU (more expensive) or an ASIC chip for it (also more expensive), even though it's easy to actually do either case from the R&D standpoint, since the algorithm is well known.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Well, in my experience, it usually goes like this: 1) user installs some Linux distro, 2) user keeps Windows around just in case, 3) user ends up not using Windows anymore at all. Once in a blue moon at -most-.
/. so I'm likely to be a geek, you're thinking. Well, here's something for you to chew on: I installed Mandrake on my girlfriend's own machine in a dual-boot with Windows, so that she could try it and see how she liked it. A few weeks later, she had stopped using Windows. Interesting, isn't it?
That is the scenario I've seen happen most often, anyway.
In my own case, last time I booted to Windows, a few weeks back, it told me, "We have detected it's now Winter Time, do you want Windows to update your clock accordingly?"
I hadn't used it for over six months.
Now of course, I post on
Windows is -NOT- inescapable, my dear AC, oh no. It -does- a few things right (games mostly), but let's face it, Linux has become a more pleasant desktop environment for quite a number of uses. Want to read DVDs without being -forced- to watch the FBI warning (and in some case the ads)? Can't do that on Windows, sorry. Want to read any video file (DivX, Quicktime, Real) with one single unobstrusive player? Can't do that on Windows, sorry (though I hear there's a new player trying to imitate Xine and MPlayer in that regard -- 'twas about time). And then there's the viruses, the sub-par IE browsing environment, the perpetual risk of having pieces of crap software trying to take over your computer for their own purposes (that last point being the one that sealed my switch to another OS -- too tired of having to run AdAware everytime I installed something), etc, etc.
Now don't take me wrong, Linux -does- have it's issues too, but trying to pretend that Windows is inescapable is at best uninformed.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
This is nice to see, and this device has some neat features. Just a shame its so much heavier (9 oz as opposed to 4) and bigger (5.3" x 3.1" x 1.3" as opposed to 4.1" x 2.4" x 0.73") than a comparable ipod. That said, it has got marginally better battery life.
As a previous Neuros owner, I'd like to share my experience with you, since I learned about the Neuros at this site.
As of the last week in May, when I returned my unit, I had owned the Neuros for three months. During that three months, I spent more time attempting to get the software and firmware to work than I did actually listening to the Neuros outside of sitting at my desktop. Though during that time I saw a committed effort to improve the software, firmware and hardware, be warned that the Neuros was at that time for early adopters who had the time and patience to post bug reports and wait for a commercial company to release updates.
From corrupted on unit databases to a firmware that randomly deleted the entire contents of the unit, the problems were constant. Every time I took the unit with plans to listen to it, I was dissappointed. During the short periods I managed to make it work, I had other problems. From the MyFi functionality being only listenable in mono to the UI of the unit not allowing you to search for songs while one is playing, the enitre experience was not worth the $399 I paid for.
If you don't fit into the early adopter catagory or have $400 to loan a company for beta software while you "test" their products for them, then buy another MP3 player.
Please don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the concept of the Neuros. The hardware was well designed, but not in the same catagory as an iPod. The UI was livable, but again, not in the same catagory as an iPod. The software and firmware were unusable and required hours and hours at a time to find the bugs that wouldn't allow useful listening to the device. And then, the worst part of it all... it's USB 1.1. No device with 20 Gb of storage should have USB 1.1 There's nothing worse than transfering data for 5 hours to find out you discovered a bug and had to transfer the data again.
Digital Innovations has great customer service and they actually care a great deal about what you have to say. However, for $400, I'd rather purchase company stock than either of their units.
I have to say that the mic on the unit and the line in are nice features. There's nothing like recording your drunk friends at 2:00 am while they think you're listening to MP3s. And the MyFi is a real nice idea, it's just the performance of the MyFi is inadequate. HiSi is a nice idea, though I never found it useful since my unit never made it very long outside of my desktop.
Before I posted this, I checked out the Neuros website. They seemed to have released a serious update to the software. Hopefully this one is spot on or a huge improvement to the versions I had previously used.
I am slightly confused why this device just would not support usb-storage. That would sound like the simplest thing to do. No strange programs run, etc.
Even for those who want syncronization abilities. They can just mount the usb-storage and then rsync the local paths.
Why the special utility?
badness 10000
I'm interested in this, but after a quick look at bestbuy.com, compusa.com and tigerdirect.com I didn't see them. I see you can order them directly- is that the only way? $400 is a bit much, but I'm willing to compare prices a bit.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
I just wish I had a dollar.
I seem to have misplaced my
and because all commercial apps will be geared to work with the MS-Linux desktop, the users of the other distibutions (read ALL of them) will still have their 4th rate "alternative" apps, and not the quality MS-Linux ones.
If Bill and company were to give in to an GPLed kernel and core system, and just port their crappy desktop apps to a Linux base, nothing would really change. Yes, the core OS is primary for security and stability, but for long term usability of your digitally encoded materials, whether audio, visual or text, it is the application formats that matter. At some point (now or in the near future), you will probably need an open source app just to convert obsolete MS word processor files and spreadsheets to something usable.
The reason this won't happen is that if the core OS was Linux, this would vastly lower the barrier for high-quality commercial applications from vendors other than MS as well for Free applications. Further, the most important security vulnerabilities of MS systems is really applications related, not OS, so they would just be porting their insecure apps to Linux and nothing would change.
OGG vs. MP3 is yet another "format" debate, and I fully expect that in the long run, the most open and capable formats will win. As others here and in some of the Neuros forums have pointed out, you want to have record capability for a lossless format for source recordings and archives so you can convert easily to whatever compact format you need. OGG-FLAC combined with OGG-Vorbis seem like a really hot ticket. I gather that the OGG-FLAC encoding hasn't been adapted for integer only devices like this one, but that hurdle shouldn't be too tough.
You wind up looking like a big sign that reads "We don't allow direct-linking"?
Let me guess... It's supposed to be a picture of a Jerry's kid. No wait, a fat slob? Burn victim? How about a transvestite? Now THAT would be teh funnyest thing evar!!!!1
So, what's it like being an invertebrate?
No it isn't. Apple is not by any means supporting an independent developer community for the iPod. Quite the opposite, in fact.
+++ATH0
Which is a bit annoying
Yeah, you say that now. But with FLAC, the files are compressed losslessly, and in my experience, I generally get about a 33% size reduction. And with subtle music with a lot of will placed percussion (e.g. my jazz albums) FLAC does give a noticeable improvement over ogg vorbis encoded at 9.1 quality.
So assuming you'd get about 74 minutes of audio on the standard CD, you'd get 747 MiB of wave files per disc.
Note: CD Audio encoding is different than regular data encoding. You cannot fit 747 MiB of wave files on a CD-R in a regular file 74 or 80 minute system because of redundant error correction data that does not exist in the CD Audio format.
So with a 20 GiB Neuros Audio Player you would be able to fit 27.4 CDs on one player. With FLAC, assuming a 33% file size reduction, you would be able to get 40.9 CDs onto the player.
Lossless support in the Neuros player IS a big deal because it allows you to put a significantly larger quantity of non-lossy music on it. And furthermore, if you want, you can just convert the FLAC back to RIFF wave format whenever you want because, one again, the conversion is lossless in both directions.
Whoops... here's a slightly better link about MiB and GiB: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
If Microsoft were to go Unix (don't hold your breath) they'd go FreeBSD. And no, they wouldn't open source it.
Emmett, did anyone make any /. story submissions when this product was launched? Given the fact that you are encouraging a developer community to form and that you've been working on Linux sync software, you'd think this would have seen a lot more exposure. I *especially* like the swappable storage sleeve option - more or less unlimited expandability.
+++ATH0
I'm currently using my Zaurus. Since I can get two hours of oggs at q0 (plenty for work) on half of a 128MB MMC card, I'm not quite ready to run out and buy another device of comparable size just for tunes. If I'm going on vacation, I can get a 512MB CF card for 90 bucks and keep my gadgets down to the Zaurus and an external battery pack.
I'm having crash problems with the Sharp ROM 3.10 and the current Vorbis plugin, but I expect somebody will remedy that soon enough. Of course, if Sony ever supports vorbis and Linux on the NetMD players, the whole question will be moot. Yeah, right after pigs fly outta Hillary Rosen's ass...
One more thing: anybody who thinks that mp3 at 128 sounds as good as .ogg at 64 needs to have their ears checked... I suppose you could like it when cymbals sound like breaking glass, but there's no accounting for taste...
hang brain.
4.5x2.5x1.5 (not exact) is a bit big to just throw in my pocket
That seems to fit easily into any pocket... unless you are using 19th century measurements? You aren't, are you?
For anyone with the Jazpiper portable player John johansen (of DeCss fame) has written a driver and a command line utility fot linux called Openjaz
And to be completely clear:
1) Both units use the same firmware, the only difference is the amount of built-in flash. The CPU, RAM, etc are the same between the 2 units.
2) The 128MB or 64MB flash are built into the main unit. If you buy the basic 20GB HD backpack version, you get a main unit with 64MB. If you buy the 128MB version you get a main unit with 128MB and the backpack only contains a battery. If you want the 20GB -and- 128MB options, you have to buy the bundle.
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
It is interesting that the early comments in their forum were careful about not saying definitively that they would have OGG as a purely software update, but they appear to have gotten past that. I still couldn't find anything for sure about decoding or FLAC. I suppose it is partly a matter of whether the existing hardware has enough processor power to keep up at sufficient bit rates.
I might just take you up on that. :) How much we talkin' here?
Kudos, btw, on the extremely good customer service regarding the issue of the USB 2.0 upgrade. Very, very classy.
+++ATH0
This is only true if you use very low bitrates (i.e. Vorbis 16 kbps *might* be close to MP3 32 kbps). It's certainly not true at most bitrates. Usually a 5-30% gain is more reasonable, decreases as bitrates get higher (since Vorbis is currently really well-tuned only up to 128 kbps or so).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Bitrate peeling is not yet implemented, and will not be for quite some time.*
* Well, there are experimental implementations, but the quality is generally considered to be unacceptable, so the interfaces are not yet exposed.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It is not generally agreed that LAME APS Ogg Q6. Q6 should in theory be better than APS, but APS is much better tuned at the moment, so the quality is roughly comparable (they fail on different samples, in different ways).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Why on Earth would you use the Sharp ROM?
+++ATH0
Free software aims to replace the Windows operating system only in-so-far as to create an open, competitive marketplace for desktop applications. If Microsoft had stuck to creating operating systems, Linux would have nowhere near the following it does today. Throughout the 90's, instead of being content with improving Windows, Microsoft ignored the bugs in their OS and concentrated on extending their monopoly vertically into the more profitable applications market, integrating their own products into their OS and giving them inherent, illegal advantages over competitors' products.
Microsoft likes to tout the availability of third-party software for Windows, but the trend in the Windows 'ecosystem' has been for large, profitable products to either be purchased by Microsoft and rebranded as M$ 'innovation' or merely crushed under the weight of the Microsoft integration monopoly. It's shocking how many Microsoft 'patches' just serve to further integrate their applications into the OS and break competitors' products. Lots of businesses in the 'dot-com' era were formed with the sole purpose of being purchased by Microsoft. Now, on Windows, you have the choice of one browser, one word processor, one e-mail client, one media player, and one instant messenger. Using anything else puts you at risk of having your investment in third-party applications and training made obsolete by Microsoft's anti-competitive tactics.
Sadly, those who were most fed up with this situation were the users. The mere fact that there are people so sick of Windows that they are willing to work to build their own OS has given Microsoft the only real competition it has ever had. Had there been no OSS 'Revolution', we would all be running M$ apps on a buggy, Macintosh-like system where everything from mice to CPU's to word processors come only from Redmond. Microsoft is still living in this fantasy world where they can control the entire desktop market in this way.
OSX is probably the best example of an open, capitalistic desktop applications marketplace so far. Apple has smartly placed themselves as a stepping stone between a proprietary OS running one vendor's applications to a free OS capable of attracting proprietary applications developers. They have a thriving third-party software base that hasn't (yet?) been monopolised by the OS developer. Maybe their choice of BSD as a base OS will help to convince more application developers to write for open software targets instead of coding nervously as the Sword of Redmond hangs precariously over their heads.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
I have also emailed them and they claim to be working on the details of making the software and firmware open source.
Luke-Jr
I've not had any of the problems you've had, though I was unable to get into the initial batch of units that shipped. There were a lot of the early units that had a hardware bug in them, I would suggest you take Joe Born's offer up and try out a newer model.
:)
I'm listening to my Neuros right now, it goes with me everywhere. I know that sounds like a bad commercial, and I'm sorry if I come off as a Neuros spokesmodel, but it's the truth. My friends/coworkers have my MiFi station saved on their Stereos for when we car pool.
THe USB 1.1 was a big sticking point for me, but with their recent offer of free upgrades to USB 2.0, I was sold and purchased a 20gb drive.
I've also never encountered a company that is as dedicated to customer satisfaction. If there were more people like Tim Artz in customer service the world would be a wonderful place to live.
Early Adoption can be a pain but I've not had the experience you've had and after a month+ of ownership I'm happy to own a Nueros.
-Weirdo513
VBR MP3 not only exists, but is quality (not bitrate) based, and very widely used amongst the sort of people who care about quality (including several major filetrading networks). Tthere is also average-bitrate VBR, but this is not the recommended one: LAME's --alt-preset standard is recommended, and is a quality-based mode. It is generally considered approximately equal quality-wise to Ogg -q6 (and averages around the same bitrates as Ogg -q6 as well).
So I maintain my point, that Ogg is not superior to MP3 at high bitrates (or "high quality settings" if you prefer, which maps to the same thing). Once you get above Ogg -q4 or so, MP3 can match Ogg's quality at similar filesizes.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I've heard that it's supposed to be better, but I haven't seen any listening tests that show that to any significant extent. IIRC, the latest iteration (gt beta 3) turned out to have some pretty major quality problems with it, and that's unlikely to change in the near future, as garf has discontinued work for the moment.
In any case, it's not nearly enough tuning to match the tuning done on the LAME mp3 encoder, which is why at high quality levels Ogg remains approximately even with MP3, despite MP3's inherent suckiness as a format.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That's just transcoding, can be done with any format (or even between formats), and is generally a very bad idea. The point of bitrate peeling is to allow you to do 128->64 and end up with a 64 that sounds not too much worse than a 64 that was encoded straight from the original source material. Doing a 128->64 transcoding (which is really 128->wav->64) will give you something that sounds significantly worse than straight-to-64.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10