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DVD Recording - Is There a Winner Yet?
Rob writes "Ok, so I've finally gotten my TiVo configured to let me extract and archive video, now I'm wondering what is my best solution? I currently have a CDR that I've been able to use to save both VCD and SVCD. Unfortunately I have a very old DVD player that will only play VCD's. So I decided that it's time to look at recording to DVD, but what is the right answer? Has any format won? I just got back from Fry's and I could get either -R/-RW or +R/+RW and there were even drives that did all of the formats. This is all well and good, since I'll have to buy a new DVD player to play any of them, but which format is most widely accepted? Even if I get a drive that will record in any format what do most DVD players accept? Sure I can make sure that my DVD player will play whatever format I produce but what about my parents and friends?"
All the answers to your questions have already been given on http://www.dvdrhelp.com. Not only do they detail which DVD players accept which formats, but tell you were to get the best deals on media, which formats work the best, and what dvd-r/w+r/w drives work the best.
I don't want to troll, but a simple google search would have easily answered all of your questions.
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
DVD-R has something like 89% compatability - meaning 89% of the DVD players out there will play DVD-R. Almost ALL DVD players made after 1999 will do DVD-R. DVD+R is next with 85% compatability. Note that DVD+R offers a couple more features, but you trade off just a notch of compatability. The +/-RW formats are less compatible... modern DVD players should be able to do it. My friend bought a new DVD player which said in the instructions that it couldn't play DVD+RW, but I burned one anyway and his player was able to play it just fine.
You can find more information and even user testimonials here.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
we have a sony dru-500ax here that burns either format (dvd+ and dvd-). it is our experience that the "dvd-r/rw" works much better than the dvd+ in off-the-shelf dvd players. i have an apex 1100 at home and it will not play the dvd+ discs (verbatim brand 2.4 speed) that i have burnt with this unit, while the dvd- (also verbatim brand 2.4 speed) discs play just fine. we also have another brand of dvd player in our break room (dont remember the brand) and it wont play them either, and its fairly new. we've also had trouble getting the dvd+ data discs to read in some of the computers we have on campus (brand new dell optiplex) while the dvd- work. maybe its just the brand of discs that we are using. hope this helps....YMMV
DVD-R seem to be the most widely playable...and Apple's DVD-R media seems to be the most reliable (and very reasonably priced) from my extensive testing at work. We ended up purchasing the Sony DVD-R/RW+R/RW drive to ensure maximum compatiblity.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
(I ended up replacing the loader in my Apex AD-600A because it wouldn't handle any burned DVDs. $35 and an RPC-1 firmware download took care of that. I use a Pioneer DVR-105 in a FireWire case; it gets shared between two computers at home and one at work.)
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
...record in BetaMax!
I know you want to go out and get that dvd burner now , but if you can get by with your (s)vcds for another year or so the blue laser dvd burners which store a little over 24 gigabytes will probably be about the same price as the current dvd burners. However, if you can't wait (and I don't blame you I want one too), I would by one of the Sony burners that supports all of the formats, they cost a little more though. After you get it installed and have a new dvd player you can try recording in different formats to see what your or friends or families dvd players like best and burn your dvds accordingly.
If your existing player works be happy, but if you are not willing to buy a new compatible player, forget about it, return the DVD burner and stick with VCD & SVCD.
Its very hit and miss for all DVD+R DVD-R DVD-RW & DVD+RW. I've found two occasions where two instances of nominally the same model player ( JVC, Sharp) DVD-R played perfectly on one and glitched badly on the other.
The "format war" is a distraction to cover the fact that the DVD industry sold out to Hollywood and changed the laser wavelength for burned disks and this makes compatability of "old" players designed to the DVD Forum's specs a crap
shoot when it comes to playing burned disks.
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
Wow, remind me never to cross you. Looking at me might take up too much of your precious time.
On second thought, I wish I knew you, just so I could give you Dickens for your birthday and watch you cry.
If I had a nickel for every time I had a nickel, I'd be richcursive!
here's what you do
1. ditch the dvd idea
2. buy a relatively cheap pc, or if you're crafty, convert an xbox.
3. put a big harddrive in it
4. connect svideo out of computer into video 1 on tv or equivalent.
5. visit doom9.org. and buy dixv pro codec
6. convert tivo format to divx.
7. you're done
I own that drive and it died in less than a month the first time, now it won't read the +R media IT WRITES. The +R will read in any other drive that I have, just not the drive that wrote it.
The biggest problem I had was with Sony Tech Support. It took me 4 hours to get an RMA to return the drive. They refused to help me at first because the drive wasn't hooked up as the master on the SECOND IDE controller. It was hooked up as the master on the first IDE controler (My MOBO has 2 IDE, plus a RAID controller which the HD's run off of).
Trying to explain to them that it didn't make a damn bit of difference which controller it was on made ZERO difference to them.
I also spent half that time on hold waiting to talk to someone.
If I had to do it over, I would go with probably the Pioneer drive.
I also prefer the -R media because it's cheaper and my Home DVD player can read them.
Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
i have a sony dru-500A, a pioneer A04, and the ever so worthless hp dvd +r drive.
here is the basic line if you want compatability there is no choice but a -r -rw drive. i recently took a pair of home video disc i had burnt and a *cough* full *cough* copy of the dvd disc hackers. at 2 electronics stores i tested the disc's out in over 80 different dvd players. computer, home, integrated, car....
the +r disc worked in 6 drives and they were the brand new sonys that listed +r compatability. the -rw disc worked oddly in every single cheap player and the more expensive sony's. the -R disc worked in every single player.
curently from a number of internet sites dvd -r blanks can be found for ~80 cents (usd), i still havent found a single source of +r blanks for less than ~4.00 each.
curently tiger direct and a number of other sites are selling dvd-r, -rw drives that also act as cd burners for less than $160. including software and a 1 year warenty. (panasonic)
i very much think the +r standard is dying
as for drives the pioneer A05 is nice but the sony DRU-500A is a superior drive and well worth the $300 it costs. i think at last count i'm up to ~900 burnt dvd-r's and no coasters.
...which is the entity that defines the DVD Format specifications, publishes reference materials, creates DVD Format books, administers the DVD Verification Laboratories, and licenses the familiar DVD logo:
"Please note that the "+RW" format, also known as DVD+RW was neither developed nor approved by the DVD Forum. The approved recordable formats are DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM."
Technically, DVD+RW aren't even DVDs, since, in order to be a DVD, it must be approved by the DVD Forum. The +RW alliance, will have you believe otherwise; that they don't have to follow any standards and that the DVD Forum means nothing.
DVD+RW's biggest "benefit" over -RW is that it allows for packet writing - therefore allowing it to be treated like a normal writable volume, having files added to or deleted from it at will, and doesn't require closing the disc. The drawback is that a bunch of companies went out and did this on their own, and DVD+RW is the least compatible format with consumer DVD players. Of course, manufacturers - particularly those a part of this "alliance" - have buckled to provide support for it. A somewhat backwards approach, if you as me. In any case, in the days of cheap 200GB+ drives, I'm not sure why you'd want to use a really slow recordable optical format that holds a comparatively scant amount of data as a writeable volume...after all, DVD-R/RW can hold data as well, just not via packet writing methods.
Many manufacturers are providing DVD-R/RW/+RW drives now, so I imagine this point will be moot.
DVD-R/RW is backed by the DVD Forum, as well as a long list of hardware manufacturers. A few months ago, this would have given this format the edge. Microsoft, however, has recently thrown its weight into the +R/RW camp along with the many hardware manufacturers which were already supporting it. This sort of evens things out.
I assume the reason MS decided to back +R/RW is because of its ability to provide lossless linking in the recording mode that is the most compatable with video DVD players. This feature allows realtime streaming of low bitrate MPEG directly to video-compatable DVD which is something MS probably figures many consumers will want to do.
The fact that both formats have strong backing probably means that we will have to live with both formats for longer than we previously thought unless one camp or the other suddenly backs down, which is unlikely.
As for me, I have a +R/RW, and am so far very happy with it. It is well supported in Linux through the growisofs utility, and I haven't had any problem with compatability of the +R media in video DVD players.
The growisofs webpage mentioned above has a good technical discussion of the lossless linking issue and why this is supposedly an advantage for +R/RW (look near the bottom of the page), although I personally don't do realtime MPEG streaming to DVD.
I was a very early adopter of CD-R with sony's first CD-R drive at 2K$us back then when the CDs were over 20$ a pop.... I was always satisfied with the writer and never in my mind the doubt of "losing data" before 10 years really triggered....
;)
With the pioneer, I went along the logic that they were the first to introduce a "end user" DVD-R unit (at 10K$ back then) so I thought that at the A04 revision it would be a winner... God I was wrogn, that unit pissed me off so much, first, the firmware issues, passing from 1.20 to upwards; you couldn't revert back to older firmware because pioneer locked the firmware with a key, you couldn't put cheap disks into it anymore, and the worst was the princo RW would never record correctly or freeze the drive off and I had to do some weird "leave the cd in while resetting the unit, boot windows, use dvddecrypt in debug and reinit + full erase RW" to recuperate the disk. Anyways, of course if you would use 5x more expensive medias you'd have less problems, but at that price point it was defeating the reason why I bought a DVD-R in the first place ($/megs/reliability). Nightmare aside, what pissed me off the most is when I started seeing reports of DVD failing after a short amount of time, even commercial grade one. Dunno if other people here will post more specifically about that subject but it got me worried to a point where I use cheap medias, and only use my drive as "second layer backup" for the time being and when I have something critical to put on disk I go out and shell more for a brand-name disc, which I find is way overpriced. Of course if you burn 2x on a 1x media with an hacked firmware, you're asking for trouble, but this isn't my case, I always burn at 1X to put every chances on my side.
Drives are comming down in price, which is a good thing, newer models have both +R and -R support so that stupid (very stupid) compatibility thing shouldn't be a problem anymore unless you run into firmware issues like I did. Even if you buy something cheap, READ the forums, read the firmware discussion groups, and like when buying a motherboard to build a server for example, ALWAYS read the tech support forums of the company or "unofficial supports" sites before making a decision if you are planning on using your device for stuff you'd want to keep for a while. This is where I failed, I took the pioneer brand for granted... I can tell you there are a buttload of unhappy customers with the A04 model, A05 came out shortly after with 4x support which was even more upsetting because it wasn't announced a decent time before the release (I would have waited). Now the A06 has dual support (+/- R/RW) But I'd go Sony or even LG before going back to pioneer, the tech support was lame and that firmware issue had ABSOLUTELY no justification, locking a firmware to not be downgradable and introducing support only for your DVD-Rs (1.20->1.31) as a feature is simply disgusting.
As for a standard... it's hard to tell, since all drives manufacturers seems to go for Dual-mode drives, the fight will probably stay there until the next leap happen (like those 20+GB dvds with backward compatibility, maybe they will limit it to 1 standard). The reason I chose -R over +R is because they were 2-3 years LATE into delivering the product from the "supposed launch date", I was planning on working with that about a year after the supposed launch date, 2 years after I was still waiting and I was really upset so I went the other way, and still got screwed a bit
Oh and a good source for firmware discussion/problems for most drives Firmware Page
They were really helpful into hacking that damn device and firmware so that I could downgrade it.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Just a small note, if anyone cares - Only the the recent model PS2's will play DVD+R. Go with DVD-R's if this is an issue.
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
Here has been my experince with DVD+Rs. I bought my first DVD+R about a year ago because it was $250. That was anywhere from 50 to a 100 bucks cheaper than anything else out there. When it got fried, along with the rest of the computer, I started looking for a replacement. The one thing that I started noticing was that all the major players where fielding DVD+Rs now. TDK, Plextor and a few others where making DVD+R and nobody seemed to be shipping DVD-R with thier shit.
Now I will admit that my research may have been bias because I had about 100 blank DVD+R laying around. Another thing that I noticed was that they local BestBuy and Compusa seem to be stocking more DVD+R than DVD-R. This was both writers and media. This as lead me to think that DVD+R is what people are buying. I think that DVD+R has won whatever DVD battle there is.
On compatablity issues there is only one DVD player that I've noticed can't play DVD+R and that was in a Compqa laptop. This Sony Vaio doesn't have any problems and neather does my PS2 nor any DVD player I've tried.
Oh and if your going to pirate movies Pinnacle has this great software called Instant Copy that will make great copies of DVD movies. It does everything but rip and burn for you. Will automaticlly re-encode a DVD-9 to DVD-5 with better quality than a (S)VCD. Not that I would encourage you to pirate movies that is.
Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
Big whoop. DVD+R is the one approved by Sony and Phillips...not to mention Dell, HP, Ricoh, Yamaha, and a little company named Microsoft.
DVD+R/+RW is better technically, and doesn't require different discs for different purposes. It will easily last as long as DVD-R.
All sorts of hacks, manufacturer links, FAQs, etc.
If your priority is for Video that you can share with friends and family, my experience is that DVD-R is the more compatible format. That doesn't mean it's without flaws, though. At least in this part of the world (Australia), both formats seem to be equally available, but a lot of the -R media is still 1x speed. At least with +R you'll get a minimum of 2.4x write times.
The advantage of the +R format is allegedly better support in future versions of Windows, and packet writing ability for the +RW formats.
Given that there are quite a few drives that can write both media, I'd say get one of those. Also, if you havea DVD-ROM drive in your computer, it's worth checking the compatibility of that as well.
DVD+R is the one approved by Sony and Phillips.
Well, DUH! They designed the +R standard.
Just because Microsoft prefers it doesn't make it better... have you ever used Windows?
-- This sig for rent.
and I can tell you that the Pioneer is not worth the money when you can buy Sony for a bit more and have it do both standards.
Well, that's not the whole picture. The people that I've talked to say that Pioneer DVD writing drives make more compatible discs than Sony drives, on the same media. One guy does a lot of burns for set-top drives and he says he consistently gets better player compatibility results with the Pioneer.
Plus, if you look online, you can get the Pioneer A05 for a lot cheaper than the Sony, often over $100 less. It's hard to find the Sony for much less than $350 anywhere.
I've said this on every DVD-related topic that I've replied to, but I'll say it again: The quality of the media that you get is the most important factor. Particularly for DVDs, it seems that some of the new exotic high-speed media has to have a firmware revision that includes specific media manufacturer support (e.g. Verbatim 4x DVD+RW). The brands that I recommend to my clients for all writable media, CD and DVD, are Verbatim, TDK, and Mitsui (and their badge-engineered equivalents), in no particular order. The Mitsui Gold Archive standard are rated at something ridiculous like 200 years useful life. Everything else is of questionable quality and compatibility. Now, while you may not get or need that much mileage until the next greatest thing, some of the cheaper media (e.g. Ritek) can go on you like crazy, sometimes in under a year. To me, if I'm going to go through the trouble of "backing up" my DVDs, storing my Ogg/MP3 files, or archiving source material for video editing, I'm going to use something that does the job right the first time, not something that I have to worry about dying on me in 2-3 years time. The advantage in cost over a spindle is miniscule compared to potential complete data loss. And I have blanks (Kao CD-Rs come to mind) that have totally died on me that have never even been opened. If I get at least 20-30 years with average abuse, I'll do it. Or I can put my most prized data, movies and music onto DVDs and store them in a safe deposit box at the bank where they likely will last much longer. I know that there are folks who like DVD+R, but DVD-R is the standard. Just because more DVD+R drives have appeared right now means nothing. Just because Microsoft supports DVD+ standards means nothing. What counts is maximum compatibility, and DVD-R is that beast. It's not the most modern or sexy, but if you have a corporate training video or are duplicating your wedding video for friends, DVD-R is the choice you should make.
What Rob wants to know -- and what I want to know -- is which format is outselling the other, not which one /.'er X prefers and which one Y has heard has more problems than the other, and not even the rumor that a certain fruity computer company is leaning toward dvd-r (or is it dvd+r, who cares?)
dvdrhelp is a nice site, but they only tell you how many recorder models do one or the other or both and how many dvd player models play one or the other or both. What we want to know is: is one recorder format outselling the other by, say, 5 to 1, because then the war is over and hang the minute technical details. You can't find this out by Googling, unless there is some secret search-term combination; I've tried.
The sales data seems to be as closely held as the crown jewels. Isn't there some industry insider reading this who will post some facts, perhaps as Anonymous Coward?
And curse Sony for starting this whole format war in the first place!
>DVD+R/+RW is better technically, and doesn't require different discs for different purposes.
Sure DVD+R/+RW doesn't require different discs for different purposes... so long as you stick with DVD+R or DVD+RW. If that was your point, you had no point.
DVD-R/-RW doesn't require "different discs for different purposes" EITHER.
Or were you referring to the niche "DVD Authoring" format? This is irrelivent/FUD for 99.9999999% of DVD recorder owners, since DVD Authoring is a special authoring format not supported outside its small, vertical market.
I suppose in one sense tho that makes DVD-R/-RW "more complicated" than DVD+R/+RW... because there is *no* authoring format for the "+" writers. Sure, you can save some encoded files to DVD+RW... (and probably not proof it in your DVD player unless you just got a DVD player this year... then MAYBE). What your service provider will do is copy your DVD+RW onto a DVD-R Authoring disc because that is the master.
Personally, most people won't consider the advantage of being able to master on DVD-R(A) a negative... most people won't care actually. They just want their movies to work on Uncle Bob's DVD player, puchased 3 years ago... it ain't gonna work with DVD+RW.
The new 4th generation DVD-RAM drives can do:
- DVD-RAM
- DVD-R(G)
- DVD-R/W
Remember that DVD-RAM is the only standard that is reliable for backups, the only one with (optional) data verification, the only one with long life cycles for constant use (100,000 records vs 100-1000 for DVD-/+R/W).
Got CDs with mpg files burned as just files instead of (X)S/VCD tracks? It'll play em. MP3s burned on a DVD? It'll play em. Got mpg files encoded with nonstandard resolutions? (512x384, 352x176, etc) It'll play em. I can personally sttest to it's smooth playback of both PAL DVD and SVCD content on NTSC hardware
With several revisions floating around, region coding can be disabled on all models, just requiring a different code to be punched in depending on which model you have. Easily looked up based on the serial number of the unit.
Early, 'golden' models were just using an IDE DVD drive, which some industrious users have managed to hack the firmware for to allow dropping in a HD instead. Macrovision can only be disabled on these early 'golden' models as well, which are sadly hard to find nowadays. Granted, the playback hardware was less powerful in the 'golden' models than the other variants to pop up since, but I'd still like to be able to just pop in a big HD worht of MP3s & JPGs, load up the undocumented 'musical slideshow' feature, and just leave it running :'>
In order to make this past Christmas a successful one, I wanted to make sure that the "special edition" DVDs I was making for family members were as compatible as possible.
After extensive reading, some experimenting and some real-life experience (both successful and less-than) I can say the following:
A DVD-R burned on high quality media (e.g. 2X Maxell - this brand has the best compatibility that I have read about and personally experienced) in the proper DVD spec (I stick with 1.0 or 1.1) will work on MOST players, including at least one "first generation" Pioneer set-top player.
In my experience, after testing various conditions on a number of set-top players, it is the media that makes the most difference in compatibility rather than anything else. As long as your MPEG video stream is spec (or corrected) and your audio is also at spec I think you'll be good to go.
BTW I do all this via BSD (Mac OS X) and Linux (TiVo) over a WLAN.
They just want their movies to work on Uncle Bob's DVD player, puchased 3 years ago... it ain't gonna work with DVD+RW.
This just plain isn't true. If you browse through sites like dvdrhelp.com, which I did recently, you will find two things: 1) the user reports of compatability vary considerably even within the same DVD player model, and 2) if you average the results (which you must do because there is so much "noise" in them), there is very little difference between the two formats in terms of compatability. If one is better than the other, it is by only a few percentage points at most.
I have played +R disks in many players made during the last 5 years, and have not had any problems. The surface reflectivities of the two types of disk are very similar, and a player which is physically capable of playing a -R will almost always play a +R, at least in my experience. Some players might refuse to play a disk which is tagged as a +R, but there are utilities available which will let you change the so-called "book type" field to get around this problem.
I agree that end users will not have any issue with the two types of DVD-R/RW, but there is one difference that probably will make a difference to some consumers. DVD+R/RW is capable of recording with lossless linking in the mode which is the most compatable with video DVD players (see this page (near the bottom) for a technical description of this issue). What this feature means is that with +R/RW, you can stream variable bitrate MPEG directly to the DVD and have the resulting disk be more compatable with video DVD players than with -R/RW, which wasn't designed with this in mind. My hunch is that this is one of the reasons M$ has decided to put its weight behind +R/RW (along with the Mt. Rainier stuff).
The bottom line is that for all users who don't need to stream MPEG directly to the DVD (which probably includes most Linux users), there is very little practical difference between the formats. Both formats have the support of some heavy hitters and neither one is likely to go away anytime soon.
DVD+R/W has some big supporters behind it, although the discs are about twice the costs of -R/W discs. If you're curious if it will work in your player, you might check out the Compatibility List at dvdrhelp.com. It's also a good place to find out which player to buy.
My votes go to the Koss KD305 available for $49.99 at Sears (plus option $7 service plan, unlike $30 at Best Buy) or the Norcent DP300 which is $39.99 at Amazon ($49.99 at Walmart). Both play darn near anything you can throw at them, and they're CHEAP!
I own the Koss 305 and simply love it.
If it's not better, why do so many people use it?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here:
Because Microsoft has a monopoly?
Because of software availability?
Because that's all OEM's offer? (with VERY few exceptions).
Because that's what they learned at school?
Because most people don't even know there's an alternative?
Just because it's popular doesn't make it good.
Just look at Britney Spears... or VHS... or Michael Bay movies... or McDonalds... or Twinkies... or fossil fuels... I could go on...
My point is, popularity and quality are not the same thing. Microsoft has the worlds best marketing machine... how do I know? because they routinely beat the competition, even when the competition offers a better product, at a lower price.
-- This sig for rent.