Slashdot Mirror
San Mehat On Web Services & .Net
A reader writes: "There's an interview with San Mehat in regards to .Net & Webservices. He has some interesting comments about what will work and what won't work, and where things are going." San is well known for his Netwinder work, as well as being a good DJ. And, in the interest of full disclosure, San does work for VA Software, the parent company of OSDN, as is DevChannel.
down my pants
FOR ME TO POOP ON
Pubcrawler.ca
.
Hi Everyone!!!!
SECOND POST YEAH!
I think it would benefit Microsoft if they made the framework for .NET open source. The dedication and expertise of the Open Source developer community would greatly enhance the reputation of .NET, leading to wider global deployment.
Is that Visual Studio eats a monstrous one. It's really hard to develop (in VB.NET - ack - not my choice) on an IDE that is buggier than an ant farm. Every time I build it's basically 50/50 whether or not the compiler is going to start throwing spurrious exceptions.
Give me Java, or give me death.
Microsoft pushes it all a little bit too much. It's really not worth it.
This is RiverTonic's sig.
LOL!
Super Airplane Fighter Jet Coming At Ya!!!
|
|
|
-===+=====_/(T)\_=====+===-
| |/.\| |
`-|\_/|-'
Doesn't 'San Mehat' sound like it would be a joke name, like Heywood Jablowme or Hugh G. Rection?
What's San's job at VA, locking the doors whenever he sees the repo man coming?
The goatse guy for president. Win one for the gaper!
a Knopptix cluster of these.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
A Conversation With San Mehat posted by eekim on Thursday May 29, 2003 - [ 08:00 AM GMT ] Section: Web Services : Feature Topic: Web Services
.NET platform, as he develops Web Services for the upcoming release of Sourceforge Enterprise Edition. Mehat shared his experiences with Web Services and .NET with Web Services DevChannel Guide Eugene Eric Kim.
.NET client code to consume those Web Services -- a whole Sourceforge Enterprise Edition .NET client, whether it's pieces of a native client or adapters to other Microsoft applications like Excel, Project, Visual Studio .NET, or Outlook. .NET works very very well with DCOM and COM. It doesn't put you in a sandbox, so you can effectively go and do whatever you need to do. You can do some interesting plug-in design and cross-platform development. It's really kind of neat.
.NET? .NET initiative. These patches were coming down to my Windows XP installation, and, I was thinking, "What the hell is all this? Why am I downloading this 22 MB patch? What is this .NET framework thing?"
.NET, I thought, if they can pull it off on the Microsoft platform, that's a huge coup over the technology they had been using before -- COM, DCOM. At the same time, if they can actually get enough industry adoption over this thing -- they appeared to be pretty open about the standards -- if they could get over the psychological hump in people's minds that this was a Microsoft technology, therefore they didn't want to use it, Microsoft would be very successful. Or at least, the industry would be able to pick .NET up and run with it, very much the way that people did with Java.
.NET, there are two main ways of doing remote procedure calls. One is called .NET Remoting, where you make a connection and you send .NET metadata over the wire. It's very tightly bound. It's similar to Java RMI. Then there's SOAP.
San Mehat has a long history with Linux. As a senior engineer at Corel, Mehat designed the BIOS and firmware for its Netwinder network computer, and pushed the company to adopt Linux as its operating system. Following his stint at Corel, Mehat joined VA Linux (now VA Software), and worked on the Linux kernel. Mehat recently shifted his focus to Microsoft's
DevChannel: What are you working on right now?
San Mehat: I am adding Web Services adaptors to Sourceforge Enterprise Edition (SFEE). These adaptors interface with the application server components of SFEE, creating a SOAP Web Services interface that will allow a Web Services client to consume all of the services of Sourceforge Enterprise Edition. That's step one.
Step two is writing some
DC: How did you get involved with Web Services and
SM: After VA got out of the Linux business, I went on a sabbatical for a while, visiting friends and family. At the same time, I was watching Microsoft start its
As I started following
DC: What is an example of a Web Service that you've exposed in SFEE?
SM: I've got a Web Service that allows you to connect to SFEE, authenticate, and get a list of projects that you're a member of. You can query for a list of bugs, get them back, and then request to drill down deeper than that. In terms of Enterprise Edition integration, this could be applied to a standalone application. You would run it, rather than using a web browser, and would get the Sourceforge interface. Or, you could integrate it with something like Outlook, so in your Outlook Today box, you get this Sourceforge Today thing. You click on it, you see all your bugs, you see what's going on, you see any changes that have been made to your projects, that kind of stuff. It would look exactly like Outlook.
DC: What are some of the challenges you've faced in developing these Web Services?
SM: In
SOAP allows you to do
Pubcrawler.ca
.
- PC with 300 megahertz or higher processor clock speed recommended; 233 MHz minimum required (single or dual processor system);* Intel Pentium/Celeron family, or AMD K6/Athlon/Duron family, or compatible processor recommended
- 128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)
- 1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available hard disk space*
- Super VGA (800 600) or higher-resolution video adapter and monitor
- CD-ROM or DVD drive
- Keyboard and Microsoft Mouse or compatible pointing device
Additional Items or Services Required to Use Certain Windows XP Features* Actual requirements will vary based on your system configuration and the applications and features you choose to install. Additional available hard disk space may be required if you are installing over a network.
San is well known for his Netwinder work, as well as being a good DJ.
...
scott
my co-worker ralph wrote this FAQ, not san
The information in this article applies to:
/dev/sda1 * 1 500 4016218 83 Linux nati
Microsoft Windows 2000 Server
Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server
Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional
Microsoft Windows 2000 Datacenter Server
Microsoft Windows NT Server 4.0
Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 4.0
This article was previously published under Q247804
For a Microsoft Windows XP version of this article, see 314458.
SUMMARY
This article describes how you can remove the Linux operating system from your computer, and install a Windows operating system. This article also assumes that Linux is already installed on the hard disk using Linux native and Linux swap partitions, which are incompatible with the Windows operating system, and that there is no free space left on the drive.
Windows and Linux can coexist on the same computer. For additional information, refer to your Linux documentation.
MORE INFORMATION
To install Windows on a system that has Linux installed when you want to remove Linux, you must manually delete the partitions used by the Linux operating system. The Windows-compatible partition can be created automatically during the installation of the Windows operating system.
IMPORTANT: Before you follow the steps in this article, verify that you have a bootable disk or bootable CD-ROM for the Linux operating system, because this process completely removes the Linux operating system installed on your computer. If you intend to restore the Linux operating system at a later date, verify that you also have a good backup of all the information stored on your computer. Also, you must have a full release version of the Windows operating system you want to install.
Linux file systems use a "superblock" at the beginning of a disk partition to identify the basic size, shape, and condition of the file system.
The Linux operating system is generally installed on partition type 83 (Linux native) or 82 (Linux swap). The Linux boot manager (LILO) can be configured to start from:
The hard disk Master Boot Record (MBR).
The root folder of the Linux partition.
The Fdisk tool included with Linux can be used to delete the partitions. (There are other utilities that work just as well, such as Fdisk from MS-DOS 5.0 and later, or you can delete the partitions during the installation process.) To remove Linux from your computer and install Windows:
Remove native, swap, and boot partitions used by Linux:
Start your computer with the Linux setup floppy disk, type fdisk at the command prompt, and then press ENTER.
NOTE: For help using the Fdisk tool, type m at the command prompt, and then press ENTER.
Type p at the command prompt, and then press ENTER to display partition information. The first item listed is hard disk 1, partition 1 information, and the second item listed is hard disk 1, partition 2 information.
Type d at the command prompt, and then press ENTER. You are then prompted for the partition number you want to delete. Type 1, and then press ENTER to delete partition number 1. Repeat this step until all the partitions have been deleted.
Type w, and then press ENTER to write this information to the partition table. Some error messages may be generated as information is written to the partition table, but they should not be significant at this point because the next step is to restart the computer and then install the new operating system.
Type q at the command prompt, and then press ENTER to quit the Fdisk tool.
Insert either a bootable floppy disk or a bootable CD-ROM for the Windows operating system on your computer, and then press CTRL+ALT+DELETE to restart your computer.
Install Windows. Follow the installation instructions for the Windows operating system you want to install on your computer. The installation process assists you with creating the appropriate partitions on your computer.
Examples of Linux Partition Tables
Single SCSI drive
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
.NET isn't that bad and VS.NET isn't that bad. That being said...I'd rather not use VS.NET. I've never been comfortable with it to be honest. ASP.NET has made my web stuff so much easier it isn't even funny. I used to be doing PHP stuff and then tried ASP 3.0. I never really liked either of them...I'm kind of excited to see where this stuff goes. And as for the post on VS.NET being buggy...it's not.
The information in this article applies to:
/dev/hda
/dev/sda
/dev/sda1
/mbr removes the disk signature from the MBR. If the drive is a member of a Windows fault tolerance set, the drive is no longer recognized as a member of that set. /mbr
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Microsoft Windows XP 64-Bit Edition
This article was previously published under Q315224
SUMMARY
This article describes how to remove the Linux LILO boot manager from the master boot record (MBR).
MORE INFORMATION
If Linux is installed on your computer, Linux allows a dual boot by loading a boot manager called LILO directly into the MBR. To remove LILO, follow the appropriate procedure.
If Linux Is Still Installed
At a command prompt, run the lilo command and use either the -u or the -U option. The device name must be the second parameter. The only difference between the two options is that -u checks the time stamp on the current MBR and on the backed-up MBR, and -U does not check the time stamp at all.
If LILO is installed to the MBR of the master drive on the primary IDE controller, type
lilo -u
where dev is the device directory, hd indicates an IDE hard disk, and the a option indicates the master on the primary IDE channel.
If you want to use the command on a SCSI drive, type
lilo -u
where sd indicates a SCSI drive and a indicates the first drive in the SCSI chain.
If the drive has multiple partitions, indicate the partition from which you want to uninstall LILO by adding the number that corresponds to the partition number on the drive, starting the count at 1 (not 0). For example, to remove LILO from the first partition of the first SCSI drive, type:
lilo -u
Note that sda is not related to the SCSI ID number.
If Linux Is Not Still Installed
NOTE: The following procedure is not supported by Microsoft and is performed strictly at the discretion of the user. Microsoft assumes no liability for lost or corrupted data. This procedure should be performed only as a last resort.
IMPORTANT: Running fdisk
Boot to MS-DOS, and then type the following:
fdisk
Restart your computer.
The third-party products that are discussed in this article are manufactured by companies that are independent of Microsoft. Microsoft makes no warranty, implied or otherwise, regarding the performance or reliability of these products.
SOAP has several parts and he seems to be confusing them. Most all of the major vendors are using Schema (another W3 standard) for types and SOAP for enveloping but not encoding.
.Net does not use it by default but rather uses SOAP enveloping with Literal encoding.
SOAP encoding is recognized as incompatible and limiting which is why
Yuck, who wants to 'consume'web services?
love is just extroverted narcissism
SOAP = Slashdot Owners' Anal Playground
Rob's anus is blistered and gooey from riding on "the swing" with CowboyNeal.
You're not Bret Victor are you?
For years all the webservices buzzwords were going to save the world. If San's article is correct, we still have a long ways to go. Developers still worrying over serialization and passing complex objects as arrays of arrays of name-value pairs. Yuck
Everything he says about .NET can be done in Unix today. M$ is just reinventing *nix as a class library.
Did anyone else first see this as "Sun Redhat On Web Services & .Net" ?
would entail not spinning trance.
While Mr. Mehat states this as a criticism, I going to come out saying that this is a strength. SOAP is very light weight considering its alternatives. In-so-far as you can serialize objects to W3C Schema primitive types, you can avoid the difficulties of complex marshaling one incurs with other distribute service mechanisms (the stubs/skeletons of CORBA, etc.). The W3C Schema types are a quick and easy standard that are independent of choice of language, operating system, environment, etc.
I put the 'fun' in fundamentalism
I used to know San back in the early days of the computer scene around Ottawa...Nice to see he doing well. He used to run a great BBS too!
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
out of won side of his forked poutoll, whilst sucking in the hobbyists, out of the other won. a real mug's game.
why does his DJ description read like marketing-speak?
;)
San's years of DJing experience playing parties and clubs from California to Canada have put him close in touch with the dancefloor and its needs.
or pouthole. now which is it?
I've received several reports from sources in and close to Microsoft that suggest the software giant is getting ready to walk away from
As I described in the first-ever issue of
The goal for the company was to transition to a subscription software model, similar to cable TV subscription services. One of the problems with Microsoft's sales models is that the company has peaks in its earnings reports that are tied to big product introductions, and valleys that occur when existing products have matured or the company has replaced them with lackluster revisions. To smooth its earnings curve, Microsoft embarked on a controversial (but, at the time, legal) decade-long earnings restatement project, in which the company put aside portions of its earnings in each peak quarter and applied the difference to quarters in which the company didn't perform as well. The result was an unnaturally smooth earnings growth curve, in which the company experienced double-digit growth, year over year, throughout the 1990s. Unfortunately for Microsoft, earnings reporting laws changed. Federal regulators began to examine the company's books, and Microsoft had to change the way it reported earnings.
Although the company knew it couldn't maintain its historical growth rate, it was still eyeing ways in which it could smooth out revenues and avoid the bizarre daily stock-price changes that affect most high-tech companies. One obvious way, of course, was to move to the subscription software model it had so long desired. Instead of customers purchasing Microsoft Office once every 3 years for $400, for example, perhaps the company could convince customers to subscribe to an Office service for $100 a year. Like a gigantic aircraft carrier turning slowly at sea, Microsoft moved to implement this plan. On the enterprise side, software licensing had already evolved to a subscription-like plan, so Microsoft met little resistance among its business customers until it so egregiously changed the licensing fees in Licensing 6.0 that customers revolted and the company finally had to make concessions to lower the cost.
Consumers represented a different problem for Microsoft's subscription-service scheme. Most people think that when you buy a software product, you own it--Microsoft's obscure and little-understood licensing terms notwithstanding. Explaining to an individual that the software he just purchased for $100 wasn't really his to keep and continue using proved to be a challenge that even Microsoft's unlimited marketing budget couldn't overcome. In test markets for subscription software--in particular, Office XP--consumers universally panned the
One is evil and was born at Microsoft, the other is evil and was born in Germany (mostly)... Being a long time House music producer (House was born in CHICAGO USA!) and Java programmer I have this to say:
.NET or trance.
But you won't see any trance in my record crate, and there will be no VB.NET in any of my projects!
Don't give Trance a Chance! and Web services go much better with a cup of Java!
Ok, I really have nothing against
TallGreen CMS hosting
For those doing ASP.NET development (all six of us), check out Nikhil Kothari weblog. Pretty exciting the tidbits he's posting about Web Matrix, the free ASP.NET IDE. Depending on how the full release goes, I may just move most of my "personal" ASP.NET development to Web Matrix just based on ease of use alone. No intellisense, but most of my heavy lifting of code I'll be putting in .dlls created in VS.NET anyways.
my favorite thing he says is "SOAP allows you to do a lot, but also gives you just enough rope to hang yourself." must be soap on a rope.
This note was originally published at John Munsch weblog on January the 14th.
.NET to fail and fail badly
.NET "rebuttal" that I linked to above, "For non-profit use VS.NET can be had pretty cheaply, especially if you know anyone that is in college somewhere." Pretty cheaply? For a non-profit (that means charities, churches, universities, the hobbiest who is going to give away his work for FREE)... pretty cheaply? Wow. That is well and truly pathetic. To try and justify it, and say, oh well, you can try to scam an educational discount so it won't be so dear, is even more pathetic.
.NET commercials with William H. Gacy telling you how great it is without really ever telling you anything about it? Microsoft doesn't trust .NET to stand on its own technical merits and it knows it may go like cod-liver oil down the gullets of a lot of people who have seen how the company works behind closed doors even if it were the tech shiznit.
Lots of reasons why I want
It's benefits a criminal organization. Not one that's been found guilty of crimes once or maybe twice, but lots and lots of times. Those crimes are many and varied, but here's just a few of them: Stac Electronics v. Microsoft, DOJ v. Microsoft, Sun v. Microsoft.
P.S. If you want to split hairs, Stac v. Microsoft isn't a criminal action, it's doesn't stem from a criminal abuse of their monopoly like the other two cases. Instead it was just a case of a small company being driven out of business by willful patent infringement, theft of trade secrets, etc.
Microsoft isn't just one thing anymore. It's too damn big for that. I'm sure even Bill himself knows better than to think that he truly controls the whole ship because it's become big enough that he can't possibly know all the projects, people, etc. anymore. But even a really large company still has a kind of collective personality that it exudes and a large part of the personality both internal and external to Microsoft for many years now is that of a total control freak.
If they don't own it, if they don't control it, if they didn't create it, if it doesn't have a broad stamp from Microsoft on it, then they don't want it. Sometimes it's sufficient for the thing to merely exist and they'll refuse to acknowledge it, other times they need to actively stamp it out because they can't control it.
When was the last time you can remember Microsoft saying they supported a standard? That is, not something they invented and submitted a RFC for, an actual, take it off the shelf and re-implement it without renaming it or "improving" it so it doesn't work with anybody else standard. C++? Basic? HTML? A video or audio codec? Java? Anything?
I'm sure there's something, somebody will point out their excellent support for TCP/IP or something and I'm sure that's true. But if you were to look at Microsoft as a person in your life, you'd wonder what was wrong with him or her such that so much had to be controlled by that person.
When your business is selling the operating systems that 90+% of everybody uses, software development tools should not be a profit center.
Why should I have to plunk down a couple of thousand dollars for a "universal subscription" in order to have access to compilers and basic development information? Sun doesn't have to do that? On this point I'll quote from the
Marketing. Have you been "lucky" enough to catch one of the
So they are going to pull a page out of Intel's bum-bum-buh-bum "Intel Inside" playbook and try to sell the brand like it's sneakers and cola. Trust us, you'll look cool if you use it, and we'll keep hammering the brand on TV so somebody who doesn't have much tech savvy in your organization will ask you if you are using it, or have plans to port to it, or whatever, even if he hasn't got a clue what "it" is in this case.
They don't trust you. They don't like what they can't control and they can't control you. They can try and they always will keep trying bu
Do you mean alternatives like CORBA, or like REST? REST to me seems the proper way to go about web services for 99% of web services people are building. Most people are doing simple calls... the only trick that remains (and is evidenced in the interview) is a simple means of creating objects that represent web service calls and results, to make working with the calls more natural in the OO language that most corporations are using right now. I'm hoping a simple mapping layer on top of a pull parse is a good answer - I'm trying out JiBX for that although it's still rather beta.
In theory with a good mapper to and from the XML should alleviate the collection problem they talked about in the article by naturally generating good XML for Maps and Lists, and converting back just as easily.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think this article is just the sort of information we need in the technology community. There has been too much hype about web services in from the marketing departments of IBM, Sun, Microsoft and others. I have the basic grasp of what it does and how it works, though haven't coded with it yet. Mehat's experiences sound very much like my experiences trying out a new, immature toolkit and finding it exciting (in promise) but frustrating (in reality and limitations). Without this sort of ground-level view, it's too hard to tell if web services is an important part of a system architecture, or whether it needs more time.
p!
"I honestly would vote libertarian if their candidates weren't usually total cooks."--slashdot poster
Hemos wrote:
> And, in the interest of full disclosure, San does work for VA Software, the parent company of OSDN.
And, in the interest of full disclosure, devchannel is a OSDN site as well. How incestuous.
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*
g_______________________________________________w
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______w
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______w
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____.
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____g
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____o
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____a
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____t
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____s
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>_\___|__e
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>_|__/__.
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>_|_/___c
s______/_/\|___C_____)_______|__(___>_/__\___x
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___*
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|___
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__g
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_o
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_a
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_t
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|s
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|e
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|x
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|
*_http://www.goatse.cx_*__http://www.goatse.cx__*
Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
Dance music sucks. Period.
I think it's just going to take someone to be loud. Any New Yorkers out there?
Sure, web services isn't so bad...as long as you don't drop the SOAP!
I must say that this is one stellar development platform. Once you're over the initial learning curve from whatever it was you were using before, you can create web applications at an increible pace. It's rock solid as well, I keep it patched and its never ever crashed on me. The amount of documentation, examples, code libraries etc available at your fingertips are mind numbing. With this being a Microsoft product as well goes to show that perhaps the money hungry M$ isn't half bad after all. In fact, after my experience with .NET, I'd have to say that I'm become a huge fan of Microsoft's Visual Studio.NET product.
But, we live in a world where STL is a normal thing. If you're a C++ or Java programmer or any kind of an object-oriented programmer, you must have some semblance of containers
I don't think .net has generics yet.
The questions: Mono is the .net runtime/compiler/interpreter for C# (yet). But what about the proprietary code ? the windows forms etc ? All the .net apps that have a MS-based gui will not be allowed to run in mono. Will they ? And how will mono handle those Win32 calls ? Maybe through wine ?
Since it will be hard to find people that believe the same as you here at /., I will. I, for one, am sold on .Net development as well. I enjoy it immensely; it is too bad that a lot of people here won't even give it a try because it is a MS product.
He really doesn't know anything and just blabs on and on about how little he knows. If you haven't read the article, don't bother, it doesn't teach you anything new.
I used to be fairly active on the 613/819 boards.. what did he used to run?
And also... My fellow Java developer and myself have had zero problems exchanging complex types over web services. There is no problem with XML/SOAP. The problem lies in immature proxy generators. WebSphere Studio Application Developer and the
Karma means fuck all to me, I appreciate having the info available on a non slashdotted server. When karma helps you losers move out of your mom's basement and gets you laid. Let me know.
Pubcrawler.ca
.
So, from the intro to the article I gather that San is a former Linux developer that has started working with .Net Why should I care what he has to say about it?
*YAWN*
Kent
I've recently started developing in C# with VS.NET. It is very cool. Even the visual database wizard thingies are useful time savers if you are careful when and when not to use them.
A tip that wasn't immediately obvious to me as a beginner: To use the visual db tools in your non-form classes, inherit the class from System.ComponentModel.Component (or select 'Component Class' when adding a class from the menu). All the examples in books etc seem to only show them being used with forms which is bad for separation of display and logic.
My only real complaint: Why is browsing the documentation so slow? I know its huge etc but it seems like it needs a better indexing system or be in something more like a real database.
Having just spent about three hours listening to trance while coding in C#, I can personally vouch for the safety of using the two together. Over-enthusiatic listeners may want to invest in an extra-sturdy keyboard, however.
EXCEPTION: Under no circumstances should you mix Trance music, .NET, and a large array of multicolored strobe lights. If you think the headache you got from the 60 Hz monitor refresh rate was bad, you ain't felt nothin' yet.
Amen brother!
.NET?
.Net framework is so much better than WIN32 that it isn't even worth comparing. There are some bugs, but for the most part it just works. Speed is OK also, especially considering how quickly applications can be built.
.NET model even more: Many languages, one platform.*
.NET.
.NET?
.NET is too good to be ignored. I tried to hate it at first, but eventually I was forced to look at the merits of it and I learned to love the product, even if I did hate the company. Let's all face it, if .NET was for Linux, we would all have been worshipping it as the second coming since it started.
.NET, but as of now, it is really only one platform
ASP.NET looked so good that I just had to try VS.NET! At first I didn't like the IDE, but it grew on me. I don't know if I would claim it to be a stellar product, but it is at least as good as any other IDE I have used.
Why do I like
1. ASP.NET makes things easy. My productivity has soared with it.
2. The
3. I used to love the Java model: One language, many platforms. But I love the
Allowing a group of developers to write their parts of an application in the language they are most familiar and comfortable with is an awesome experience. It works very well using
What I hate about
1. MS!!! Why oh why did I have to get sucked back in. I hate the company, but
*I know there are efforts to extend
I'm pretty sure by containers he meant the collections (like arrays and hashtables) that we all have today.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
San Mehat is an anagram of Neat Sham.
This is a troll. A VB developer can be an Open Source developer at the same time.
The fact that you can get a ob easier with VB is irrelevant.
What?
in my experience... if you wanna pass more complex datastructures over webservices, you send objects encoded as xml strings... then decode the xml into the native structures you want.
.NET services already in place. the hardest stuff i've had to tackle in the interoperability between java and .NET is getting into the soap headers... and then just getting commonality between encryption classes etc. lot's of hurdles and non-overlapping block styles and things. drive me crazy!
sure, it's work, but so it goes.
that's how we've gotten around a lack of standardization of higher level objects.
i've been writing a set of java services to serve as a linux option to some
gosh, and then how some of those wsdl and stub generator tools in java land have changed and produce different code. shoot me now!
m.
I _love_ vs.net
.Net provides. (Sound is a gigantic pain in the ass for example.. and non-portable).
.Net is great, I like the VS.Net IDE... I'm still not in love with MS.
It's really fast to get what you want done..done as long as you work within the limits of what
My only problem is MS's constant whining for more money. Unless you buy the Enterprise version you get shafted as to the tools and technologies you can use. Don't even get me started on having to buy VS 2k3 6 months after I got 2k2.
SharpDevelop, Mono, WebMatrix... once these tools fully come into their own I can see transitioning from VS.Net without any sadness.
my 2 cents anyway
-bren
EMACS
dude, the fact that he's got his feet wet in both sides of the fence is a plus in my book. isn't the article about interoperability?
?
m.
For web service development in the J2EE world, and soon for much else (portals, workflow management) you might like to take a look at BEA's Workshop.
I like its approach to messaging a lot - makes SOAP/HTTP just another transport like JMS, presents RPC and async alternatives very clearly and shows what's going on message-wise live, rather than being a separate code generator.
He's bashing us /.ers!!! Let's get him! Show him your wrath by giving him ... ... NEGATIVE MOD POINTS!
Bwahahahahahahahah!
It's the kinda prank call that you'd make to Mensa or something. Moe's patrons certainly wouldn't get it.
You bad mouthing hats?! They cover our heads!
Blar.
Where can you get VS.Net 2003 for $20?
:-)
I'll rephrase, where can you get a legitimate copy of VS.Net 2003 for $20?
Please, don't hesitate to reply, I'm curious as to who you've blackmailed to get such a great deal.
I doubt if MS will ever allow WebMatrix to eat into VS.NET sales. Without auto-complete and about a million other little features it is not in the same league as VS.NET. If you need a small, simple light-weight ASP.NET IDE it is quite good but otherwise stick to VS. Sharpdevelop has auto-complete and looks promising. IIRR Borland where going to bring out a developer tool for C#/.NET also, although I've not checked that one out.
Didn't even bother to check the Mono site to see that there are, in fact, Mono implementations of ADO.NET and ASP.NET, including webforms. Come on.
I tried out .NET recently. It's actually obscenely easy to write GUI apps that look really good. Unfortunately, the baseline memory usage for a Windows Form app is 20MB. So, that pretty much rules it out for commercial projects.
SOAP is very light weight considering its alternatives. In-so-far as you can serialize objects to W3C Schema primitive types, you can avoid the difficulties of complex marshaling one incurs with other distribute service mechanisms (the stubs/skeletons of CORBA, etc.). The W3C Schema types are a quick and easy standard that are independent of choice of language, operating system, environment, etc.
Two of the main tenants underlying SOAP are broken:
* Size does not matter
* Efficiency does not matter
Earth to SOAP advocates: both of those things matter a great deal. Sure, there may be even more clumsy alternatives out there, but SOAP still ranks very high on the clumsy scale.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Now we know why there's so much .Net coverage on the slashdot shopping network these days. All those Microsoft acronyms which have emerged in the last 3 years make my eyes water. Is that really the big thing people are doing now?
For fun, I fired up some Java RMI examples, and the overhead was much better. 20% or so.
What we really need is pickle (python object serialization) implemented for every language. Then we could sling those giant lists of hash tables around like there was no tomorrow!
-- ac at home
We recently incorporated WSDL parsing support into the project. SOAPpy has already been released with the new support. ZSI will shortly be released.
:)
WSDL support is most definitely in Python.
Do it for da shorties
http://saveie6.com/
Thank god there are tools to make it and consume it. For the uninitiated, it's not fun. It's not fun at all.
I've been using this tool for a few months, and even with its auto-magical bits, the WSDL still regularly gives me a headache. Oh, for the days of CORBA IDL.
I've been doing some hardcore webservices work lately and here's my .5 cents on this. There are some good things about web services in theory, but in practice the current implementations for WSDL, Schema and O/R mapping in .NET is majorly crippled. Before people start saying "what a load of crap" consider this. SOAP is a simple transport that doesn't understand the concept of transaction, which is fine, since it that wasn't the original goal. But that means deserializing and serializing complex objects has to be done with some other tools. The recommended method from Microsoft is to use Schema.
Schema has several major weaknesses, the primary one is it lacks the ability to inherit external types. Schema does support includes, but when the XML is converted/compiled to an object it essentially becomes flat. I'll clarify this a bit for those who haven't used schema. When schema is loaded to generate classes, the validation checks to make sure references to simple and complex types are valid. But to do so, it loads all the includes and builds one complete file. For applications that require modularity and custom extensions, schema simply doesn't work unless you build your own schema driver. What does this mean for an application?
Say you are using SOAP + Schema to build a messaging system and you want to dynamically update the messages incrementally because the messaging platform has to support tens of thousands of messages per hour. If you don't implement some kind of event mechanism within the generated objects, it would require you to transfer the entrie message, which consumes I/O and cpu time when it parses the XML. Take this use case. Say you have multiple messaging servers that can communicate on a peer-to-peer or master-slave basis. Now add several thousand clients that must recieve those messages and decide intelligently how to handle the message updates. An easy approach would be to have each of the objects register for a particular topic in the messaging server (assuming it's pub/sub). If you use the default schema driver, the classes do not extend any class or inherit any predefine logic. If you want all messaging objects to extend a base class which provides messaging subscription and intelligent updates, you have to write your own schema driver. Take another example. The default mode of building schema descriptions from a database is to open a connection to SQL Server, select the tables and VS.NET generates flattened schema models. On the surface that seems fine, if the data you want is flat. If the data you want is relational and has to preserve the structure or map to an object structure, you have to provide your own mapping implementation.
Do these kinds of problems exist in the java world? The answer is mostly no. For O/R mapping there's castor, jdo and numerous other mature drivers. Compiling schema to extend base classes, Castor provides the ability. Not only that, the Java solutions provide a more mature and flexible method of doing these types of operations. If you don't believe, try it yourself.
The cool features of WebMatrix are getting rolled into the version of VS.NET that is currently under development, and is supposed to be ready next year. So then you are supposed to be getting all you liked about WebMatrix, plus what you missed (like integrated debugging).
How does Sharp Develop compare in quality and features to VS.NET? I might consider switching IDEs if it works as well or better.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
If what you want to do is have an IDE that integrated text editor and the free SDK C# compiler, it is OK. If you want the Visual Basicy kind of drag and drop on to a form and hook up events, it is still very much under development. If you want to use your legacy ActiveX controls (not a problem with VS.NET), that may be on the to-do-list but is not currently available.
Just write a few simple wrappers and extractors to get the vars from HTTP. SOAP and .NET web srvcs are a pedantic attempt to create more certification fees and consultant billing.