Mwongozi was one of many readers to note that "the NY Times is reporting Justin's resignation from Nullsoft, and more details can be found in his weblog. One has to wonder whether this has anything to do with the WASTE fiasco."
queue the llama noises
by
sweeney37
·
· Score: 5, Funny
AOL, it really whips Frankel's ass.
Mike
Re:queue the llama noises
by
Snork+Asaurus
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
LOL. I wonder if Justin gets to keep the llama.
For many years, I have been impressed with the work of Nullsoft and their unique style and approach and I have always had the impression that Justin one of the key driving forces at Nullsoft. I fear that under AOL's corporate thumb Nullsoft (like Netscape) may be well on its way to becoming Null.
Good luck, Justin, and thanks for giving us Winamp.
-- Sigs are bad for your health.
Anything to do with Waste...
by
Daniel+Wood
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
One has to wonder whether this has anything to do with the WASTE fiasco.
Wonder? When he says, "The company controls what I do with my code [in the past, it seemed I had
freedom, but it turns out all of that was not really the case--rather, I
was somehow avoiding the control illicitly (for 4 years)]," it becomes rather clear as to exactly what he is talking about.
This has everything to do with WASTE and any other projects that AOL canned.
Re:Anything to do with Waste...
by
Xerithane
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
This has everything to do with WASTE and any other projects that AOL canned.
I think it has everything to do with the lack of independance of coding, not WASTE or any other particular project. Those are just symptoms of the problem.
I've worked for companies before that have draconian contracts, "Anything you think is our property! Hah!"
Re:Anything to do with Waste...
by
TopShelf
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Frankly, I'm amazed the guy stayed under the AOL umbrella this long. When you read a quote like that, it's clearly coming from someone who doesn't fit within a corporate environment. His talents would be better served in a smaller outfit within which he has greater control...
Re:Anything to do with Waste...
by
Sacarino
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Keep in mind that the guy is only 24. At ~19 he hit the jackpot with a "for fun" MP3 player -- a trivial app (see all the MP3 players on FreshMeat).
Alright, I'll bite.
Perhaps you weren't around when WinAMP was in it's infancy. I remember only one other player that even came CLOSE to the stability WinAMP provided. I even registered my copy with Nullsoft, back when it was shareware. It's not like you had "all the MP3 players on FreshMeat" to choose from. It was either WinAMP or it's crappy runner-up. Couple that with the fact that WinAMP was a) skinnable, b) had some badass graphical features, and c) impressed non-geeks. It also extended mp3 support with some attempts at backward compatability.
I know it's been a while, but computers used to be slow. WinAMP would play on a 95 box running on a 486/dx2. That's IMPRESSIVE, my friend. You couldn't do jack-shit else while it was playing or it'd skip, but the fact that it would play this fancy new MP3 format that only took a couple megs for a song was nice. It made people take notice. What did you do that ranks anywhere near that? I know that crap I did in Comp Sci & Eng didn't land me anything like the deal he made for himself. I don't think he got lucky at all, he saw a need and he wrote something that took care of said need.
-- --
El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
Good riddance :P
by
coupland
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I'm glad he's leaving, AOL doesn't need him anyway; after all they have lawyers. Let the lawyers write the code. I'm sure AOL 10.0 will rock the house.
On the other hand this unleashes a creative, boisterous, unwielding and stubborn geek on the world, perhaps even to join the ranks of all those amateur open source hacks. In the end you get AOL run by a squeeky-clean army of professional lawyers and another rogue hacker who acknowledges no ones authority to dictate what he contributes to their quasi-communist "community" of freedom fighters. Altogether I think both sides are getting exactly what they deserve.;-)
Re:Good riddance :P
by
tyllwin
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Ah, yes, but while at Nullsoft, he was (well, still is for the moment) getting handsomely paid to express himself through code. Open-source hacking may be better for the community, but it don't pay the bills.
One doesn't have to wonder...
by
Xerithane
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
He's leaving because he doesn't like the "We own everything you write" clause in his employment contract. I'm not sure what the WASTE fiasco is anyway. WASTE is something Nullsoft produced, as long as it's under the GPL (Yes.) he can quit and still work on it, and nobody can (legally) care.
He's probably just pissed that what he works on gets the "Copyright AOL/Time Warner" header on it, and understandably so.
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
Anti+Frozt
·
· Score: 5, Informative
IIRC, at the time that WASTE was developed, Nullsoft was owned by AOL/Time Warner. This would mean that anything created by employees of Nullsoft had to be cleared with AOL.
Therefore, it couldn't be produced under the GPL unless AOL said so. Most employment contracts specifically state that any thing or idea created, conceived, developed, etc. while employeed becomes property of the employeer (in this case, AOL/Time Warner)
-- In C++, friends can touch each others private parts.
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
tsetem
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Just because he released it under the GPL doesn't necessarily mean it's legal. If all of the code he writes is owned by AOL, then AOL, as the copyright holder, must determine the license it's released under.
Don't know how serious this may be, but if AOL wanted to, they might be able to sue for loss of IP due to the dumpage of WASTE into the GPL realm. That's the real bitch when you write code for a company. Unless you beg & plead with the lawyers (or your managers) to give you a little freedom, they own your stuff.
And this leads right into non-compete clauses in your contract. Even thinking about the code you wrote for another company could be considered competing against your previous employer.
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
LostCluster
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Therefore, it couldn't be produced under the GPL unless AOL said so.
This was discussed to death in the previous WASTE discussion. Justin, as an employee of AOL, tried to put WASTE under the GPL. AOL then came forward and said that Justin had no authority to do so.
However, just because an employee makes a deal outside of their authority doesn't automatically reverse the deal. The test is whether the other party to the deal in good faith believed that the employee had the authority, or should have known that something was amiss. That's a tough question and would likely take a judge to answer completely...
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
2logic
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
If it could only be that simple...
You have to remember that NullSoft is a subsidary of AOL Time Warner. Which probably means that Justin is under contract from Nullsoft and not AOL.
He probably has pretty much all the control over what he can do with what Nullsoft creates. The problem is probably in the contract that binds Nullsoft to AOL. I think that indirectly, Justin's code is owned by AOL, but since Nullsoft is an entity of its own, it can do many things on its own: creating software, releasing code, being a pain for AOL, etc... BUT only to some extent, because Nullsoft is a subsidary of (or controlled by) AOL.
So it's probably not just a matter of a simple contract between an employer and its employees... It goes deeper than that I'm afraid.
-- // TODO
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
pc486
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Last I checked, RSA is in the public domain. Even if WASTE used stolen/imporperly licensed code, opensource coders could simply replace it with a GPL compatible version.
Suprisingly he lasted this long
by
brent_linux
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
When AOL bought out Nullsoft, I was sure he would leave. When they took down the gnutella stuff, I was sure he would leave. When they stopped the aimster stuff, I was sure he would leave.
I didn't really have him pegged as a corporate kinda guy from the start. I am really suprised that he could take it this long before he left. Corps are often to stifling to creativity.
Why don't they ever ask politely?
by
zptdooda
·
· Score: 5, Funny
``If you downloaded or otherwise obtained a copy of the software, you... must destroy any and all copies of the software, including by deleting it from your computer''
Other valid means are: - just throw the whole computer out. That way we'll have covered all the bases for future potential license violations - hmm can't think of anymore (well this list sure fizzled out fast)
``Any license that you may believe you acquired with the software is void, revoked and terminated.''
Well Schrodinger's license is definitely dead then. I never downloaded it but now I'm wondered if I got one through some quantum license-tunnelling effect.
I wonder about the order of voiding, revoking, and terminating? Was it in series or in parallel? Sounds like the license got taken out back and worked over by the three of them at once.
I don't understand why its taken 4 years for this to happen. The guy obviously is not suited for corporate coding and when it comes to money I would think he's pretty well off. Having the legal backing of a big corporation might be nice but not if all they do is pull your code to avoid doing anything.
-Eyston
Question about article
by
tkrotchko
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
In the article, it claims Nullsoft is saying there is no valid license for WASTE, yet it looked to me as if WASTE was released under GPL.
I wonder if the GPL license is valid at this point for WASTE? Or did Justin not have the rights to release it under GPL?
-- You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Looks like WASTE is..
by
EinarH
·
· Score: 5, Informative
still available for download, including source, over at deviantart.com...
Strange they haven't pulled it off the web.
Disclaimer:
This post is of course provided as "AS IS". And I do NOT encourage any copyright enfringement.
--
Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.
Re:Slashdot won't like this but...
by
Planesdragon
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
I guess I didn't embrace the dot bomb generation or something. I can't generate any feeling of respect for a "company executive" that runs a weblog and moans about corporate issues publicly. It just isn't professional.
Executives don't write software.
He is, at worst, a software programmer who manages a division. In the software world--especially the free software world--keeping a weblog and being honest in it have come to be hallmarks of a professional.
Most Winamp coders left already
by
Skuto
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Most of the really good Winamp coders left already. The guy that wrote almost all the core plugins, Peter Pawlowksi, quit because he didn't like Winamp 3 design and thought it was a dead end. Because AOL still owns his code, some of the plugins are 'dead' now, and the code can't be used any more. Bummer.
He wrote his own player instead, which is, eh, quite different from Winamp, Foobar2000.
Anyway, Frankel has little to complain about. Nullsoft was bought out for almost 86M$. For that much money, he'll never have to code, err, express himself ever again.
Re:Slashdot won't like this but...
by
Meat+Blaster
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I can't imagine that he was being paid that badly, either. Most people would kill to get bought out by AOL (or Microsoft for that matter), so what's wrong with taking the money and leaving it to the college students to write the piracy apps?
When you can afford most of the things you want, why is WASTE so important?
Good for him
by
Arbogast_II
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
It is always a pleasure to see a person who realizes a good life is more important than money!
--
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Re:Good for him
by
RealityMogul
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Spoken like somebody that makes enough money to have a good life.
Maybe AOL's mgmt wanted to shift Winamp to a pay for or adware product.
I never liked it when they proudly boasted that there were NO ADS! and it was FREE!
--
-- dK... Narf Poit!
iTunes for windows anybody???
by
snuffdiddy23
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
i am keeping my fingers cross that he can continue with his work. apple is looking for a coder for the iTunes Music store for windows, Justin Frankel would be perfect. only to switch him over to the darkside now.
The previous entry in his blog is even more interesting:
Winamp 2.92 will have CD ripping support, with support for OGG. OGG VBR at
0.0 sounds pretty decent, listenable, at like 60kbps. I'm pretty impressed
with it.
'bout damn time. Hopefully his leaving won't change Nullsoft's plans to provide real OGG support. I still can't get it to pick up very low bitrate HTTP Vorbis streams via a straight.m3u ala XMMS.
WinAmp 2.92? I'm using WinAmp 3.0c -- am I in the future or something?
No, WinAmp 2.92 is newer than the current Winamp 3 release. Winamp 3 was more of an experiment that pretty much failed and they are scrapping it for the most part. They are taking some of the Winamp 3 features and adding them to 2. This new version is tentatively going to be called Winamp 5 (2 + 3), and to be released end of summer 2003. This is what I read on the message boards a while ago, their plans may have changed.
I'm kinda pissed that Winamp 3 for Linux pretty much disappeared. The alpha version, though really buggy, sounded much better than XMMS. Hopefully they will release a Linux player some time in the future, but I don't see it happening.
-- #!/
/. Mishap again
by
MmmmJoel
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Justin has not resigned as/. has prematurely concluded. The NY Times article only says he plans to, which we could all come to the same conclusion by reading the blog. There is no additional information in the NY Times article and both parties have declined to comment. There is no indication that the NY Times had access to anything further than what we already knew.
Yes, it is probably inevitable, but this writeup is wrong as so many others have because some/. rogue reads something, draws a different conclusion, and the/. editors don't pick up on it.
Not much of a surprise...
by
Blic
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
It'd be curious to find out exactly what happened at Nullsoft. I mean, things seemed good for a while after the acquisition. Then it seems like they brought in a lot of new people and came out with the bloated beast that is WinAmp 3. How much involvement did Justin have in that fiasco?
Then recently they brought out WinAmp 2.9X which sort of undercut WinAmp 3, but in a good way.
Gnutella, and then WASTE which was such a perfect name for the program, hehe, as long as you've read Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49.
Well, as long as Justin diversified and didn't have all his money tied up in AOL stock he's probably doing pretty well and shouldn't have to put up with the headaches if he doesn't want to.
Re:Slashdot won't like this but...
by
SubtleNuance
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
it just isn't professional.
You know what, im sick of this 'unprofessional' trash. "Professional" is inhuman. Usually, any act of honesty is described as 'unprofessional' Im tired of my personal relations being filtered through the Blanket-of-Commerce that requires people to be a cog or a tool.
I could care less that a person was 'unprofessional' -- because a person's character is not defined by how well he conforms to his employers view of how best to achieve profit.
Justin has grown tired of being a wage-slave -- so have I.. I just dont have the resources to buy life back from my Corporate Masters just yet...
Your code is your kids...
by
malakai
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
can't imagine that he was being paid that badly, either. Most people would kill to get bought out by AOL (or Microsoft for that matter), so what's wrong with taking the money and leaving it to the college students to write the piracy apps?
seriously. Money is great, I like money, it pays the rent and lets me do what i want half the year. But if all I did was "nothing" I would not be happy. Coding makes me happy. I'm sure coding a app like WASTE for Justin made him happy.
I feel there are at minimum two kind of coders out there right now. Type A joined the ranks because they want to make money. They could have easily done something else. Most were drawn into the big bright light of the Internet boom. They want to code from 9 to 5pm, and then be done. They expect to move into mangement at some point, and consider coding a menial task that can be pushed down the ranks.
Type X started coding because someting intially didn't do what they wanted it to do. This led to coding addiction, consuming massive amounts of dry reading material, working crazy hours, but always coming back to the keyboard like the crack head to his pipe. The irony is, in present economy, Type X makes the money, and the Type A is trying to learn another skill, move to project management, go back to school and get a degress in business...etc..etc.
When you can afford most of the things you want, why is WASTE so important?
It's his baby. You'll understand if you ever code a baby of your own.
Having said all this, I think I would have fought it out until they fired me. but not knowing his legal/contractual situation resigning may be his best bet.
I find it really strange that AOL should pull things like Gnutella and WASTE, considering that Nullsoft's primary product, WinAmp, is perhaps the most frequently used by Joe Internet for playing often illegal MP3s. Admittedly, people can use it for legal music too - but go on, most people don't give a fuck.
Likewise, Gnutella/WASTE could be used for good or evil (in the political sense). What makes them so different from WinAmp? Why is file sharing worse than playing music? Given that they already provide the criminal community (so to speak, I mean - call me a crim) an excellent tool for playing their often illegaly acquired music, as well as to the RIAA-friendly users out there - what makes file sharing so goddamn different?
Re:Why did this take so long?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Was that $86 million in Cash or AOL shares? If it was in cash, he's sitting pretty. If it was in AOL shares, he'll probally need a new job and fast.
Last thing we need, another unemployed programmer on the market. Quit in this economy?! The fool.
you're free not to work for them.
by
Artifex
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
I've worked for companies before that have draconian contracts, "Anything you think is our property! Hah!"
If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later. I don't mean just you, Xerithane, personally, but anyone in general, and him especially. If he really agreed to this kind of contract, he's given AOL the high road in this matter.
Besides that, even if he worked on it completely independently, without Nullsoft resources, and without a contract giving all IP developed during employment to AOL, they're still free to refuse to let it sit on corporate servers, where it generates legal liability and bandwidth costs for them.
-- Get off my launchpad!
Re:you're free not to work for them.
by
MunchMunch
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
"If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later. I don't mean just you, Xerithane, personally, but anyone in general, and him especially. If he really agreed to this kind of contract, he's given AOL the high road in this matter."
Not to sound trite, but I think this is maybe oversimplified. Contracts are compromises, and compromises always leave room for either side to get an advantage over the other. As with many corporations, the power dynamic is such that a contractee may in effect be forced to agree to less than fair provisions because they have become 'standard,' or the job market is tough, or the company is exerting monopoly power, etc. That agreement doesn't make draconian clauses or terms any less draconian, and the "free-market, free choice" ideal shouldn't be an absolute argument when there are such exceptions.
That said, I think it looks like Frankel more or less agrees with you, and that's why he's resigning instead of filing a frivolous lawsuit.
Re:you're free not to work for them.
by
DarkZero
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later.
He's not just complaining about it, he's doing something about it, which is leaving the company. Don't act like he's just bitching and moaning about a contract that he could easily get out of, but is still holding himself to for the sake of money and position. He doesn't like his situation, so he's taking action to resolve it. That is not just pathetic little piss ant whining. That's really following through and I think that's worthy of a little respect.
It amazes me
by
darthtuttle
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
I'm always amazed when people get in to business deals, the deal turns out badly, they are forced to move on (for personal convictions, or through corporate moves) and they are amazed and suprised!
Frankel sold out to AOL. He made a LOT of money doing it, but he should (and maybe did) understand the price of that money is freedom. AOL controls Winamp, and as long as he's an employee they control much of his actions and ability to publish.
Were I him I would have not published anything new until the contract requirements to stay with the company were over, then I'd leave and start a new company with all the money. I'm sure his share of 86 million, after taxes could start a new company to do new things.
If you value your life based on what you have done, then investors and selling out is often a bad idea. You are selling control over the products you have created. If on the other hand you value your life based on what your able to do going forward, take the 86 million, walk away from one software product and do something new. Sure, it's a PITA, but 86 million funds a lot of new things. If nothing else you could probably manage a half million a year from investment (even in this market) and live off that while writing new software and paying a buddy or two to write with you. There's bound to be a new idea in there somewhere that will start another company that sells for twice as much, which gives you more allowance, and so on.
It's all personal values.
--
Darthtuttle
Thought Architect
Justin, if you're reading this...
by
crashnbur
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
It's been a good run and, for what it's worth, Nullsoft has generated some of the niftiest and most useful programs I have ever used... Winamp, Sex, then SafeSex, and several of your utilities. I learned quite a bit by examining the code of some of Nullsoft's creations. Thanks for all you've done for the Internet community, and best of luck on your future endeavors. I hope to see your name applied to a new development project in the not-too-distant future...
Huh, dont follow you amigo
by
Arbogast_II
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
I am a long time gardener. I hardly have a large income.
Money has little to do with happiness. Unhappy people are unhappy with or without material possessions in most cases.
The man has chosen a wise path, placing his own life ahead of maximizing financial gain at any cost. I dont know the man, but I would bet he is in a much better position in life now. There is a shortage of people following their own life path in this world, and an oversupply of sheep mindlessly plodding along.
As to saying it is easier because he is wealthy, I disagree. Because he is wealthy, it is EASIER for him to get trapped in a world where only money matters, making the choice more difficult.
--
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Re:Huh, dont follow you amigo
by
maxpublic
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Money has little to do with happiness.
The lack of money, however, does. The lack of money can lead to living in piss-poor conditions, or being homeless, or not having enough food to eat. The lack of money, in many places in the world, can lead to death.
When one is simply concerned with scraping enough together to feed one's family, the question of 'happiness' is irrelevant. These questions come *after* the basics have been taken care of.
Max
-- My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Some people would rather...
by
CrazyDuke
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
...die than live in bondage.
"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry
Oh, but this is the modern day United States; we're all supposed to be corporate butt boys and prostitute our lives as wage slaves. All hail the almighty dollar!...for nothing is more important!
-- Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Another thought on this
by
SolemnDragon
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Money is like health: Having it doesn't mean that you're definitely happy, but not having much of it greatly increases your odds of being unhappy.
There are poor people who are happy and rich who are unhappy. there are also starving people who are too busy looking for something to eat to discuss the question, and rich people who really do enjoy their lives and give back to the community. IANAM (i am not a millionaire) far far far FAR from it in fact, but i think that a person should choose their own path in such a way that it preferably doesn't leave them starving and gives them enough that they can share. And to do this by ethical means in the American culture is sometimes difficult, yes, but a good thing to aim for.
Will leaving make his life better? Probably. Will it make him poorer? In the short run, probably. In the long run, probably not- if he has the skills, there will be a way to apply them, and hopefully in an environment which better suits his temperament. Mind you, this is coming from someone who works a day job unrelated to any of her interests (but not against my ethics) in order to stay solvent. For the moment, it's where i'm at. I couldn't imagine doing it for the rest of my life, however.
May we all have jobs that we can live for, enough to live on and to share, and the good sense to appreciate both??
Re:Long Decline Anyway
by
pacc
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Apart from skins in winamp 2.0 you should know that AOL has put it's mark on that too.
Since winamp 2.61 there are some support for "content management" for microsoft.wma files. You should install winamp 2.60 copy the plugins/in_wm.dll file to replace the one shipped with winamp 2.91, otherwise you won't be able to convert your.wma files to wav using diskwriter.
losing millions?
by
peter303
·
· Score: 4, Informative
The purchase of a company usually has a retention clause saying you dont get all your money until you have worked X years. X ranges from one to five years. The purpose is (1) the company's assets are often its creative people and (2) to train successors. It is unclear if he is losing some of the purchase money due to his independent streak.
The pruchase was in stock currency, so its value declined with AOL Time Warner stock price. Could have been worse considering other dot.coms.
It's just DOT COM-ism
by
sleeper0
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Everyone all upset about aol (aka the man) keeping justin down should consider this:
june 1, 1999: aol buys nullsoft for $86m
june 2, 2003: justin announces resignation due to creative differences
For those who can't connect the dots, he had a 4 year stock vesting schedule. Justin didn't have enough trouble with his free expression while his stock was still vesting, but now that it's done he suddenly feels the pangs of regret for working for the corporate machine.
There's nothing wrong with leaving after your contracts are up, but why not be a man about it? Releasing a ton of code you don't own under the GPL (and indeed, has code in it that can't be released this way due to RSA copyright) and yamering on in public about your former employer is at best pretty immature.
Justin obviously made out quite well selling a media player for nearly $100m. Anyone that's followed the ups and extreme downs of the industry knows that its unlikely nullsoft was ever worth that big of a price tag. Why not exit out of the situation gracefully and be thankful for the luck he had in getting the deal instead of granstanding for your hacker friends.
In Frankel's Defense
by
qortra
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
I don't know very much about the business end of corporate buyouts or corporate software licensing, but I'll assume that you are accurate with your facts and your speculation. Furthermore, I do totally respect your opinion about Frankel, under certain circumstances, I would probably agree with you; I just want him to get a fair defense.
You say that, of him, that "yamering on in public about [his] former employer is at best pretty immature." While this is true, he isn't guilty of this particular thing (at least in the links that slashdot provided; i would welcome others if you have them). In fact, he says (of AOLTW), "I have nothing but respect for the company". All he claims is that the company owns his code, and it seem to me that you agree with that statement.
If there was financial timing involved, its possible that he came to his conclusion about leaving a while ago (perhaps after gnutella got ganked), and just postponed his departure until after he was financially secure. This too, to me, is totally valid; its a lot easier to practice your art (whatever that may be) if you don't have to worry about money. Four years of compromise might mean, for Frankel, a lifetime of doing just what he's wanted.
Which brings us to WASTE. First of all, I need to plead ignorance here; perhaps you can explain to me why Mozilla folk can release GPL code while still working for AOLTW, and Frankel can't. Is it a difference in their contracts? If so, do you have access to their contracts to show me the differences? But alas, I promised to assume that your factual information is accurate. So, he did something wrong and illegal by claiming to release GPLed code under Nullsoft. However, I'd like to think that this is another part of self-expression, perhaps similar to graffiti (which, although it is wrong, and ought to be wrong, is still sometimes beautiful/powerful art, and a real form of self expression). Sometimes, the method of communicating your art (in his case, as his last act of working for Nullsoft) is as important as the art itself. It sounds illogical, and grounded more in romantic ideals than in fact, but I can imagine that being important to Frankel.
Thanks for your comment, and please respond or email me if I've misrepresented your opinion in any way.
Slashdot Mirror
AOL, it really whips Frankel's ass.
Mike
Wonder? When he says, "The company controls what I do with my code [in the past, it seemed I had freedom, but it turns out all of that was not really the case--rather, I was somehow avoiding the control illicitly (for 4 years)]," it becomes rather clear as to exactly what he is talking about.
This has everything to do with WASTE and any other projects that AOL canned.
I'm glad he's leaving, AOL doesn't need him anyway; after all they have lawyers. Let the lawyers write the code. I'm sure AOL 10.0 will rock the house.
On the other hand this unleashes a creative, boisterous, unwielding and stubborn geek on the world, perhaps even to join the ranks of all those amateur open source hacks. In the end you get AOL run by a squeeky-clean army of professional lawyers and another rogue hacker who acknowledges no ones authority to dictate what he contributes to their quasi-communist "community" of freedom fighters. Altogether I think both sides are getting exactly what they deserve. ;-)
He's leaving because he doesn't like the "We own everything you write" clause in his employment contract. I'm not sure what the WASTE fiasco is anyway. WASTE is something Nullsoft produced, as long as it's under the GPL (Yes.) he can quit and still work on it, and nobody can (legally) care.
He's probably just pissed that what he works on gets the "Copyright AOL/Time Warner" header on it, and understandably so.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
When AOL bought out Nullsoft, I was sure he would leave. When they took down the gnutella stuff, I was sure he would leave. When they stopped the aimster stuff, I was sure he would leave.
I didn't really have him pegged as a corporate kinda guy from the start. I am really suprised that he could take it this long before he left. Corps are often to stifling to creativity.
``If you downloaded or otherwise obtained a copy of the software, you ... must destroy any and all copies of the software, including by deleting it from your computer''
Other valid means are:
- just throw the whole computer out. That way we'll have covered all the bases for future potential license violations
- hmm can't think of anymore (well this list sure fizzled out fast)
``Any license that you may believe you acquired with the software is void, revoked and terminated.''
Well Schrodinger's license is definitely dead then. I never downloaded it but now I'm wondered if I got one through some quantum license-tunnelling effect.
I wonder about the order of voiding, revoking, and terminating? Was it in series or in parallel? Sounds like the license got taken out back and worked over by the three of them at once.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
The dream is still alive people. Demand your fair dues.
__
Cheap web hosting Dragon Action Figures
Read the article. It says that he can't stick the current situation much longer, but at no point does he say that he has resigned.
[ Monday is a terrible way to spend one seventh of your life. ]
I don't understand why its taken 4 years for this to happen. The guy obviously is not suited for corporate coding and when it comes to money I would think he's pretty well off. Having the legal backing of a big corporation might be nice but not if all they do is pull your code to avoid doing anything.
-Eyston
In the article, it claims Nullsoft is saying there is no valid license for WASTE, yet it looked to me as if WASTE was released under GPL.
I wonder if the GPL license is valid at this point for WASTE? Or did Justin not have the rights to release it under GPL?
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Strange they haven't pulled it off the web.
Disclaimer:
This post is of course provided as "AS IS". And I do NOT encourage any copyright enfringement.
Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.
I guess I didn't embrace the dot bomb generation or something. I can't generate any feeling of respect for a "company executive" that runs a weblog and moans about corporate issues publicly. It just isn't professional.
Executives don't write software.
He is, at worst, a software programmer who manages a division. In the software world--especially the free software world--keeping a weblog and being honest in it have come to be hallmarks of a professional.
Most of the really good Winamp coders left already. The guy that wrote almost all the core plugins, Peter Pawlowksi, quit because he didn't like Winamp 3 design and thought it was a dead end. Because AOL still owns his code, some of the plugins are 'dead' now, and the code can't be used any more. Bummer.
He wrote his own player instead, which is, eh, quite different from Winamp, Foobar2000.
Anyway, Frankel has little to complain about. Nullsoft was bought out for almost 86M$. For that much money, he'll never have to code, err, express himself ever again.
When you can afford most of the things you want, why is WASTE so important?
It is always a pleasure to see a person who realizes a good life is more important than money!
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Maybe AOL's mgmt wanted to shift Winamp to a pay for or adware product.
I never liked it when they proudly boasted that there were NO ADS! and it was FREE!
-- dK
i am keeping my fingers cross that he can continue with his work. apple is looking for a coder for the iTunes Music store for windows, Justin Frankel would be perfect. only to switch him over to the darkside now.
unfortunately, they use fake information when writing stories.
'bout damn time. Hopefully his leaving won't change Nullsoft's plans to provide real OGG support. I still can't get it to pick up very low bitrate HTTP Vorbis streams via a straight .m3u ala XMMS.
hang brain.
Justin has not resigned as /. has prematurely concluded. The NY Times article only says he plans to, which we could all come to the same conclusion by reading the blog. There is no additional information in the NY Times article and both parties have declined to comment. There is no indication that the NY Times had access to anything further than what we already knew.
/. rogue reads something, draws a different conclusion, and the /. editors don't pick up on it.
Yes, it is probably inevitable, but this writeup is wrong as so many others have because some
It'd be curious to find out exactly what happened at Nullsoft. I mean, things seemed good for a while after the acquisition. Then it seems like they brought in a lot of new people and came out with the bloated beast that is WinAmp 3. How much involvement did Justin have in that fiasco? Then recently they brought out WinAmp 2.9X which sort of undercut WinAmp 3, but in a good way. Gnutella, and then WASTE which was such a perfect name for the program, hehe, as long as you've read Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49. Well, as long as Justin diversified and didn't have all his money tied up in AOL stock he's probably doing pretty well and shouldn't have to put up with the headaches if he doesn't want to.
it just isn't professional.
You know what, im sick of this 'unprofessional' trash. "Professional" is inhuman. Usually, any act of honesty is described as 'unprofessional' Im tired of my personal relations being filtered through the Blanket-of-Commerce that requires people to be a cog or a tool.
I could care less that a person was 'unprofessional' -- because a person's character is not defined by how well he conforms to his employers view of how best to achieve profit.
Justin has grown tired of being a wage-slave -- so have I.. I just dont have the resources to buy life back from my Corporate Masters just yet...
seriously. Money is great, I like money, it pays the rent and lets me do what i want half the year. But if all I did was "nothing" I would not be happy. Coding makes me happy. I'm sure coding a app like WASTE for Justin made him happy.
I feel there are at minimum two kind of coders out there right now. Type A joined the ranks because they want to make money. They could have easily done something else. Most were drawn into the big bright light of the Internet boom. They want to code from 9 to 5pm, and then be done. They expect to move into mangement at some point, and consider coding a menial task that can be pushed down the ranks.
Type X started coding because someting intially didn't do what they wanted it to do. This led to coding addiction, consuming massive amounts of dry reading material, working crazy hours, but always coming back to the keyboard like the crack head to his pipe. The irony is, in present economy, Type X makes the money, and the Type A is trying to learn another skill, move to project management, go back to school and get a degress in business...etc..etc.
It's his baby. You'll understand if you ever code a baby of your own.
Having said all this, I think I would have fought it out until they fired me. but not knowing his legal/contractual situation resigning may be his best bet.
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
I find it really strange that AOL should pull things like Gnutella and WASTE, considering that Nullsoft's primary product, WinAmp, is perhaps the most frequently used by Joe Internet for playing often illegal MP3s. Admittedly, people can use it for legal music too - but go on, most people don't give a fuck.
Likewise, Gnutella/WASTE could be used for good or evil (in the political sense). What makes them so different from WinAmp? Why is file sharing worse than playing music? Given that they already provide the criminal community (so to speak, I mean - call me a crim) an excellent tool for playing their often illegaly acquired music, as well as to the RIAA-friendly users out there - what makes file sharing so goddamn different?
Was that $86 million in Cash or AOL shares? If it was in cash, he's sitting pretty. If it was in AOL shares, he'll probally need a new job and fast.
Last thing we need, another unemployed programmer on the market. Quit in this economy?! The fool.
If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later. I don't mean just you, Xerithane, personally, but anyone in general, and him especially. If he really agreed to this kind of contract, he's given AOL the high road in this matter.
Besides that, even if he worked on it completely independently, without Nullsoft resources, and without a contract giving all IP developed during employment to AOL, they're still free to refuse to let it sit on corporate servers, where it generates legal liability and bandwidth costs for them.
Get off my launchpad!
I'm always amazed when people get in to business deals, the deal turns out badly, they are forced to move on (for personal convictions, or through corporate moves) and they are amazed and suprised!
Frankel sold out to AOL. He made a LOT of money doing it, but he should (and maybe did) understand the price of that money is freedom. AOL controls Winamp, and as long as he's an employee they control much of his actions and ability to publish.
Were I him I would have not published anything new until the contract requirements to stay with the company were over, then I'd leave and start a new company with all the money. I'm sure his share of 86 million, after taxes could start a new company to do new things.
If you value your life based on what you have done, then investors and selling out is often a bad idea. You are selling control over the products you have created. If on the other hand you value your life based on what your able to do going forward, take the 86 million, walk away from one software product and do something new. Sure, it's a PITA, but 86 million funds a lot of new things. If nothing else you could probably manage a half million a year from investment (even in this market) and live off that while writing new software and paying a buddy or two to write with you. There's bound to be a new idea in there somewhere that will start another company that sells for twice as much, which gives you more allowance, and so on.
It's all personal values.
Darthtuttle
Thought Architect
It's been a good run and, for what it's worth, Nullsoft has generated some of the niftiest and most useful programs I have ever used... Winamp, Sex, then SafeSex, and several of your utilities. I learned quite a bit by examining the code of some of Nullsoft's creations. Thanks for all you've done for the Internet community, and best of luck on your future endeavors. I hope to see your name applied to a new development project in the not-too-distant future...
I am a long time gardener. I hardly have a large income.
Money has little to do with happiness. Unhappy people are unhappy with or without material possessions in most cases.
The man has chosen a wise path, placing his own life ahead of maximizing financial gain at any cost. I dont know the man, but I would bet he is in a much better position in life now. There is a shortage of people following their own life path in this world, and an oversupply of sheep mindlessly plodding along.
As to saying it is easier because he is wealthy, I disagree. Because he is wealthy, it is EASIER for him to get trapped in a world where only money matters, making the choice more difficult.
HenryJamesFeltus.com
...die than live in bondage.
...for nothing is more important!
"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry
Oh, but this is the modern day United States; we're all supposed to be corporate butt boys and prostitute our lives as wage slaves. All hail the almighty dollar!
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
There are poor people who are happy and rich who are unhappy. there are also starving people who are too busy looking for something to eat to discuss the question, and rich people who really do enjoy their lives and give back to the community. IANAM (i am not a millionaire) far far far FAR from it in fact, but i think that a person should choose their own path in such a way that it preferably doesn't leave them starving and gives them enough that they can share. And to do this by ethical means in the American culture is sometimes difficult, yes, but a good thing to aim for.
Will leaving make his life better? Probably. Will it make him poorer? In the short run, probably. In the long run, probably not- if he has the skills, there will be a way to apply them, and hopefully in an environment which better suits his temperament. Mind you, this is coming from someone who works a day job unrelated to any of her interests (but not against my ethics) in order to stay solvent. For the moment, it's where i'm at. I couldn't imagine doing it for the rest of my life, however.
May we all have jobs that we can live for, enough to live on and to share, and the good sense to appreciate both??
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
Apart from skins in winamp 2.0 you should know that AOL has put it's mark on that too.
.wma files. .wma files to wav using diskwriter.
Since winamp 2.61 there are some support for "content management" for microsoft
You should install winamp 2.60 copy the plugins/in_wm.dll file to replace the one shipped with winamp 2.91, otherwise you won't be able to convert your
Tip courtesy of apachez
The purchase of a company usually has a retention clause saying you dont get all your money until you have worked X years. X ranges from one to five years. The purpose is (1) the company's assets are often its creative people and (2) to train successors. It is unclear if he is losing some of the purchase money due to his independent streak.
The pruchase was in stock currency, so its value declined with AOL Time Warner stock price. Could have been worse considering other dot.coms.
Everyone all upset about aol (aka the man) keeping justin down should consider this:
june 1, 1999: aol buys nullsoft for $86m
june 2, 2003: justin announces resignation due to creative differences
For those who can't connect the dots, he had a 4 year stock vesting schedule. Justin didn't have enough trouble with his free expression while his stock was still vesting, but now that it's done he suddenly feels the pangs of regret for working for the corporate machine.
There's nothing wrong with leaving after your contracts are up, but why not be a man about it? Releasing a ton of code you don't own under the GPL (and indeed, has code in it that can't be released this way due to RSA copyright) and yamering on in public about your former employer is at best pretty immature.
Justin obviously made out quite well selling a media player for nearly $100m. Anyone that's followed the ups and extreme downs of the industry knows that its unlikely nullsoft was ever worth that big of a price tag. Why not exit out of the situation gracefully and be thankful for the luck he had in getting the deal instead of granstanding for your hacker friends.
I don't know very much about the business end of corporate buyouts or corporate software licensing, but I'll assume that you are accurate with your facts and your speculation. Furthermore, I do totally respect your opinion about Frankel, under certain circumstances, I would probably agree with you; I just want him to get a fair defense.
You say that, of him, that "yamering on in public about [his] former employer is at best pretty immature." While this is true, he isn't guilty of this particular thing (at least in the links that slashdot provided; i would welcome others if you have them). In fact, he says (of AOLTW), "I have nothing but respect for the company". All he claims is that the company owns his code, and it seem to me that you agree with that statement.
If there was financial timing involved, its possible that he came to his conclusion about leaving a while ago (perhaps after gnutella got ganked), and just postponed his departure until after he was financially secure. This too, to me, is totally valid; its a lot easier to practice your art (whatever that may be) if you don't have to worry about money. Four years of compromise might mean, for Frankel, a lifetime of doing just what he's wanted.
Which brings us to WASTE. First of all, I need to plead ignorance here; perhaps you can explain to me why Mozilla folk can release GPL code while still working for AOLTW, and Frankel can't. Is it a difference in their contracts? If so, do you have access to their contracts to show me the differences? But alas, I promised to assume that your factual information is accurate. So, he did something wrong and illegal by claiming to release GPLed code under Nullsoft. However, I'd like to think that this is another part of self-expression, perhaps similar to graffiti (which, although it is wrong, and ought to be wrong, is still sometimes beautiful/powerful art, and a real form of self expression). Sometimes, the method of communicating your art (in his case, as his last act of working for Nullsoft) is as important as the art itself. It sounds illogical, and grounded more in romantic ideals than in fact, but I can imagine that being important to Frankel.
Thanks for your comment, and please respond or email me if I've misrepresented your opinion in any way.