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Executing a Mass Departmental Exodus in the Workplace?

rerunn asks: "The recent story about the consultants from JBOSS walking out couldn't have had better timing. I'll save the drama and cut to the scenario: You and a few close co-workers make up the core grunts of 'the department'. The company relies heavily on your department for many services, some of which, other departments cannot provide. You like your job, it provides great satisfaction. Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit, and starts making cut backs. This impacts the department. You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt. You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out. Have you ever done this?? (We are so close!) What was the outcome?"

43 of 1,190 comments (clear)

  1. as good as it sound.... by sweeney37 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On a comedy special years ago, Bill Cosby quoted parents telling kids, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and I can make another one that looks just like you."

    With today's job market I'm afraid the company will just replace you with people that are hungry for work.

    I could be wrong, but I've always lived by the mantra "better safe, than sorry."

    Mike

    1. Re:as good as it sound.... by Kintanon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who trains the new people? If the entire department just walks you've got a whole shitload of untrained employees coming in who know nothing about the old setup or systems. It will take them months to get up to speed.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    2. Re:as good as it sound.... by msuzio · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who cares how or if they replace you? You're leaving. Unless this is some sort of bluff to make the company cave in, you could care fsck all what they do after you leave. In my experience, what they do is get screwed over *hard*. Oh, they'll cope, they'll survive, but this is what will happen:

      Scenario 1: Some of you leave, but not all
      Result: The pressure mounts on the remaining folks, and now the pressure *must* cascade above and below, because if you're straining now, after you leave the others will be even more stressed. So now management starts to feel some of the heat, and other departments get wind of this poor situation too...

      So, now even more people are getting pressured, stuff starts dropping off the table, and either the company figures out how to relieve the stress or in time they lose even more employees. Even if people don't quit, I've seen many 'sit-ins' at work where people just come in and screw off because they don't care anymore. End result, company is screwed if they are in any sort of competitive field, because they've been forced to sit on their ass dealing with internal IT issues while the competition gets stuff done

      Scenario 2: You *all* leave (perhaps to a competitor if your non-competes don't interfere, and much of the time they don't hold water)
      Result: As above, but worse. They can hire replacements right away, but even brilliant people in a new environment have some ramp-up time. Plus, if *any* of the previous people remain, these new people are going to be disheartened pretty quickly... the new folks won't quit (they need the job), but are they going to work with a song in their heart and their full mental powers engaged? Not likely. So the company either stagnates or continues to fall.

      I've seen it happen *a lot*. Both my previous job, and to a certain extent my current position went through this. In my current job, we pulled back from the brink, made the best of a bad situation, and got management to (somewhat) "fix" things. We still went from 22 people to 4 people in my 'group', but we also changed the expectations and plans we had, and now my job is relatively stress-free.

  2. No, really... by SanGrail · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sounds great.

    Why face the job market alone when you can face it with all your co-workers?

    --
    ---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
  3. In this economy... by EricWright · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...if you don't have a place to go, suck it up, find another job, THEN quit. You're crazy to walk out on your only opportunity these days.

    1. Re:In this economy... by pVoid · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I was in a similar situation. I did walk out. But not before making sure I had a 6 month parachute in my bank account, and some damn near certain contract work lined up.

      That being said, I thank god I had the parachute, because I've been self employed for close to 10 months now, and some of the projects I was supposed to get right after I quit my job are only now starting to come in.

      The thing you don't want to do, and I agree with parent poster here, is starve to the point that your breath smells... then you have no bargaining power anywhere, and you'll end up being a janitor. If you have enough money to float for at least a few months, you can play 'aggressive' (read not let yourself get raped) by the market.

      On a side note, quiting my job after the exact same scenario was the best thing I've ever done in my life. I used to be bitter, jaded, pessimistic, and always ready to snap into a bad mood. Now I'm jaded and pessimistic, but I enjoy life SO much more. Even more satisfying is watching the people who *didn't* quit back then, who are still complaining about the SAME things, 10 months after... not because I'm enjoying their pain, but because I can see exactly how much energy I was wasting in being that way back then.

      My moral: if things don't look good now, they will most likely not look good in 6 months unless something is done. Staying at your current place is not "something".

      Also, I would keep in mind that mass exodus will freak your managers out, hiring is the most expensive thing a company can do, so keep that in mind. You are in a company, in the business world... this is not favors in the school yard. IF you finally decide you will walk out - don't. First threaten walking out. Lay it on the table. Say "either we work a compromise of some sort, or we're out of here, chose". If you are determined to survive in the wild, then right now you are the most valuable selves you'll be ever. This is the moment when you can cash in on your skills - not when everything is peachy and all is running smooth. But always remember that you might end up staying there, so don't make ridiculous demands which will hurt the company and you ultimately either. Fine balance ain't it! =)

  4. What's really important for you? by tdvaughan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the company really is in 'deep financial shit' then your action could be the final straw. And if you're as important as you say you are then your action will have a severe impact on the company at this difficult time. I guess you need to ask yourself what you feel is more important: the well-being of the company (and your source of employment) or your personal pride? Perhaps you ought to think about how lucky you are to even HAVE a job right now.

    1. Re:What's really important for you? by BrokenHalo · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Perhaps you ought to think about how lucky you are to even HAVE a job right now

      It's precisely that attitude that perpetuates the perception a lot of bosses (and governments, for that matter) have that it's OK to treat staff as consumables.

      If you act like a doormat, don't be too surprised when someone wipes his boots on you.

    2. Re:What's really important for you? by Bull999999 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "It's precisely that attitude that perpetuates the perception a lot of bosses (and governments, for that matter) have that it's OK to treat staff as consumables."

      And how is this different from how employees treated employers during the economic boom? Employees demanded unheard benifits and jumped ship as soon as they found another job that pays more. Now that the table has turned, they whine.

      --
      1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
    3. Re:What's really important for you? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I guess you need to ask yourself what you feel is more important: the well-being of the company (and your source of employment) or your personal pride"

      I submit that in any decent company, this question should not and will not come up. Even if it is already 'in deep financial shit'. In a decent company, staff may be asked to bear a heavier burden or even take less pay, while the downturn lasts. The point is that staff is asked to make a sacrifice, rather than being pushed into that situation by management firing half a department and then expecting the remaining staff to do all of the work. Also, a good company will reward their employees' loyalty when things go better again.

      Don't tell me that I am somehow expected to make these sacrifices. And that is exactly the attitude of (too) many companies these days: "Times are rough and we all have to suck it up. Hey, be thankful you have a job at all". Treat people like shit and they'll return the favor one day.

      And what if inviting a number of co-workers to walk out to form our own company may spell the end for your erstwhile employer, sending other people into unemployment? If you think that that fact should give you pause, think again. You are not a slave to your company nor to your coworkers.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  5. The IS version of Johnny Paycheck by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You'd better have something lined up to move into, because you will have certainly burned bridges at your current employer. Plus, how will you spin this situation to prospective employers during the interview process?

    Q: So, why did you leave your last position?

    A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.

    This will raise doubts in the mind of the interviewer as to whether you're a person who can help an organization weather tough times...

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck by ashultz · · Score: 5, Insightful


      Well, you're welcome to play it safe that way, carefully moving from exploiting company to exploiting company.

      Clearly you should spin it a little better than that sentence, but if a company looks at you and thinks "hm, when we want him to bend over and take it, he's not going to" and the doesn't give you a job... did you want to work for them?

      -andy

    2. Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As an employer, I would naturally consider whether a prospect is the type that will help the company get through tough times, or bolt when the stress hits. The process to hire for an opening is long, expensive, and time consuming, so you'd like to hire people that will stick around.

      An an employee, there are two additional ways to look at this. First and foremost, have your concerns been known to management, or is this a bunch of guys grumbling at the water cooler? If management knew that things had gotten that bad, they would take action. Why would they risk a critical team walking out like that? They might not be able to wave a wand and make things better right away, but they'll most likely do something. Secondly, as an employee you can also look at circumstances like this as an opportunity...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
  6. Some questions and observations... by warmcat · · Score: 5, Insightful
    ...that might help you make up your mind.

    Would you rather be out on your own looking for another job than continuing to turn up every day and take what is being dished out? Consider that despite the angry words of your colleagues, they may not step up when the crucial moment comes, and you alone may be the one leaving. Is that still okay?

    Do you have savings to take 6 months with no income, or maybe shares you can sell to cover that period... because if you leave, it will be like leaving a relationship, you will be depressed, think and talk of nothing else for months, boring your friends and family until you get over it.

    Is there any upward future for you in the company, ie, is continuing to work there acting as an investment for you that may pay off at a later time? If there is some hope of a career path, given how you are treated by people at that level, is that somewhere you want to be? Given the trajectory of the company, is there going to be a later time for this to pay off in?

    Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?

    1. Re:Some questions and observations... by Zathrus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you have savings to take 6 months with no income

      I'm glad someone brought that up... if you don't (or aren't working toward that goal - and by that I include paying off debts like credit cards first), and you're currently employed, then you're an idiot. Plain and simple.

      And if you claim that that's bullshit, and you can't save that kind of money, then you need to go read some investment books. I highly recommend pretty much anything from The Motley Fool, as well as The Millionaire Next Door. It's not that hard, and saving for your retirement and for short-term unemployment is the best thing you can do.

      Anyway, if you don't have those kinds of funds, seriously think about securing a new position before leaving the old one. Otherwise you're going to be in a world of hurt. And realize that while 3-6 months of savings is good, plan ahead for what you're going to do when that money runs out and you still haven't found a position. Don't be negative, just be realistic -- part of that includes planning for worst cases. (And, actually, if you don't have a job in 6 months then you also need to figure out what to do for health insurance - COBRA runs out at that point. Don't go uninsured, since any future insurer will then be able to point at "previously existing medical condition" to avoid paying for many things).

      Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?

      Doubtful, but there's little he can do about that at this point... if the managers are overworking their staff, it's not his fault. And getting out may be the best thing to do. Yeah, more will fall on his coworkers, but that was due to bad decisions by management, not by him (I hope).

      As far as the mass exodus bit goes: unless you have a business plan to work on for yourself and your coworkers -- complete with funding -- then there's no point. All you're doing is walking away from the company, ensuring you can't even get unemployment benefits, and screwing the company while you're at it. If you're unhappy with the job, then leave. Or at least start looking for a new gig. Don't take all this crap about "be happy you have a job!" because some jobs just aren't worth it.

      Yes, not having a job sucks - I was let go from my company (along with 60% of the other employees) ~18 months ago. And I found a new job in a bit over a month. But wow did that suck. If I hadn't been let go, then I would've been looking anyway, because I'm quite sure that the job went to hell in a handbasket.

  7. Just be careful about your co-workers by AnotherSteve · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That kind of thing is cool to talk about, but it is like starting a union. If someone in the department doesn't walk out, then you're out of work and you've handed them a promotion. So stick together. Everyone should hand in their resignation at the same time. Better impact that way, anyhow.

    --
    Information wants to be $1.98/lb.
  8. Be careful... by mixy1plik · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Back during the big ol' bubble of the late nineties, I worked with a development team that came up with everything that end-users interacted with. Back then, we were doing just as you described- endless hours, little or no compensation... but we all still believed in the dream that was "we'll be millionaires soon enough". Thinking back, we were all in a perfect position to leave and start something on our own.

    NDAs and other such things in your contract might not let you break off "en masse". That is something to be careful of. Make sure you don't have contractual limitations or obligations that could prevent you from making a clean break. Using your collective knowledge and contacts, I think you all have a pretty good shot at making it on your own.

  9. We did it 1 year ago! by md17 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And there is no looking back. The pay sucks, but the freedom is priceless (atleast until all my credit cards are max'd out). I wouldn't go back if my life depended on it.

  10. Don't do it! by stevew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Look - if you are going to jump ship -GREAT! Only be a little smart and find another job before you jump.

    I know it would give you great satisfaction to flip off the boss and walk as a group. Yet, the economic reality today says that is a really dumb idea. If you don't like your current position, at least have another place to land before you toss it.

    Further, it is HIGHLY suggested that even though you don't like the place, that you don't burn bridges. What are the chances you are going to work with some of the managers/people above you in the future (answer from 25 years in the business - 100%) Leave gracefully and your career will do better in the long run.

    --
    Have you compiled your kernel today??
  11. HR Perspectives by FortKnox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My father is a 'big wig' in HR. We've seen many a strikes in the past.
    Dealing with a union is nice, cause its a one-on-one arguement and you can get things moving that way.
    But if everyone leaves in your situation, they need to know why you left, and who to talk to make things right.

    Another point, during strikes, about 25% of the time, the people were simply replaced.
    You are talking about a poor IT economy. Lots of unemployeed geeks that just want a job, even if its 50-60 hour weeks (as long as you can put food on the table).

    The bottom line? Don't even think about doing this unless you are prepared not to come back.
    You're better off just doing the work, and talking to management about compensation.

    --
    Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
  12. Alternatives by Harik · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Walk out each day after 8 hours. No compensation for overtime? No overtime. Something breaks while you're on (unpaid) call? Wait till monday morning to fix it. Let them know that you're going to treat the company as it treats you. If the entire department does that there's pretty much nothing they can do about it. They can't fire you for cause in that situation, the amount they'd have to pay in wrongful termination would be staggering.

    Would you like to try to convince a judge and jury that these 'lazy' workers were fired because they refused to work unpaid overtime? Didn't think so.

    --Dan

  13. Don't have a walkout party, have a resume party! by mekkab · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good point TopShelf.

    Combined with other people's comments that "You are replaceable"
    You and your team might as well critique each other's resumes and start applying for jobs.

    If you are walking out, its because you don't want to come back- not because you want them to treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with respect, ASK that you be treated with respect. If the response is a lot of Management BS (hopeful language but nothing concrete) you know that they aren't going to do anything about it. So send those resumes, line up a better jorb (homestar runner typo!) and then LEAVE.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
  14. Yes, we just did this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A group of us at my company just did this. It has had its problems. I haven't gotten my last paycheck because, just as we all believed, the company couldn't survive without us. The second effect is that I am now emotionally and economically linked to a group of people who, while not the enemy, I am growing sick and tired of seeing every day.

    The biggest regret I have is an accomplishment that I would never put on a resume or mention in a job interview: I put a dying company out of its misery by being part of a staged walkout. I mean who would walk to talk about that at your next job? "If the company is in trouble, I the man to kill it dead."

    My advice: don't do it. The thing you are suppose to do is get your work done and go home at 5:00pm. If they can't handle this then you will be fired which, believe it or not, will make you feel better than walkout in lockstep.

  15. Be selfish, but don't be vindictive by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Find another job. Then leave. Convince your colleagues to do the same.

    Solidarity is all well and good, but at the end of the day, the only reason any of you are working for this company is to get a paycheck at the end of the day. You don't actually owe each other anything.

    If the company suffers (as it will after a mass wlakout) it doesn't help you. It harms them, with ne benefit to you at all, and the loss of your financial stability. It doesn't matter if they learn their lesson. If they improve, you don;t work there any more.

    Admittedly, the other people will suffer even more through having to do your job if you walk out, but that will be short term. They can also find a new job. You can help each other out if you want. They can stiull choose to leave.

  16. Re:Result by RevDobbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A thought... you could just "slow down". Work slowly, stop doing things, make sure you only put in 40 hrs / week. In New Jersey at least, if you get fired you can collect unemployment after 2 weeks. Granted, I don't know how long you want to live on unemployment for...I think it's about 2/3 of your salary with a cap at $280 a week. Ugh.

    Also, there have been a couple of lawsuits where people have sued for unpaid over time... a class action suite between Walgreens & their pharmacists(sp) comes to mind. Shoveling a ton of work on you because you're "salary", "a professional", or "management" is illegal, and if you work cannot reasonably be done in ~40 hrs/ week you are supposed to be compensated for overtime put in.

    ::shrug:: IANALOAUO

  17. What if it DID work...for a while? by ScottGant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You also have to take into consideration that if this plan did work and they decide that they couldn't live without you now, that doesn't mean 6 months down the road they replace you with new people.

    If this plan did work it would also make you all look like trouble-makers. They would please you now, to keep the business going, but then slowly hire new people (at a cheaper rate) to learn everything you do and simply replace you.

    So perhaps you should rethink your plan. Remember, no one is untouchable. No one is unreplaceable. You may think this, but it's simply not true.

    --

    "Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
    1. Re:What if it DID work...for a while? by Madcelt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If your irreplaceable you'll never get a promotion.

      --

      I can only make one person a day happy. Today isn't your day.....tomorrow doesn't look good either!
  18. Re:Result by haystor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Trust is a two way street. How can a person trust a company that doubles the demands required for a regular paycheck just because management's plan isn't as profitable as once thought.

    You should not work more without some sort of compensation. Any change in your regular work requirements should come with negotiation. Management's line will be something like, "we all just need to dig in", but management usually has a bit more equity in the company. Negotiate for some of that equity. Negotiate a company policy for preferential promotions for those that did dig in. More vacation, flexible work hours, etc...

    Or just walk out all at once. They've made unilateral changes to the implied rules. Its your life and you owe loyalty to yourself first.

    Think that just because you're salaried means you should work 60 hours per week when called on? Try leaving work after 20 hours one week when you get everything done early and see just how flexible they are. Forty hours is implied most places.

    There are all sorts of exceptions to what I said above. As a programmer I expect a few wild hour nights/weekends when we are integrating or deploying to production. When I sign on to be a programmer, I can expect a few of those at milestones. I also expect that my output will be based on 40 hour weeks and not 60 hour weeks.

    --
    t
  19. Reminds me of a story I once heard... by Paul+Doom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This may be an arcane reference, but I think this idea was tried already a long time ago. As the story goes, workers once banded together to force employers to improve working conditions, pay, etc. As the story goes, these groups called themselves "unions".

    Of course, in the tech industry, where we are all "professionals" and get "salaries" and have "careers", we are above such plebeian things as unions, a day's wage for a day's work, any sort of job security, or any action that would bring into question our undying and unflinching support of whatever corporate entity we are employed by.

    Stand up! Companies treat employees as badly as the employees put up with. One bit of advise: don't just walk out without warning. Get together as a group and talk with management. Be up front about the problems and what would fix them. Don't threaten to walk out, just use your collective voice to give them a chance to fix things. Then if things don't improve, walk. I say this because I once worked for a small company with a CEO that was a real piece of work. All 15 or so employees got together and met with the board, not threatening to walk, but deadly serious. A month or so later, he was gone. If one or two managers are the real problem, organize and go above them. Don't be petty or complain about "style" or "personality". Instead, provide a clear list of issues and how they hurt productivity and morale, and what can be done to fix them. If it works, you won't have to walk. If it doesn't, walk quickly. You will have given them the chance to save themselves a heap of expense and trouble.

    Please excuse the ranting, but as someone with a family and a life, I have been disgusted by all the corporate boot-licking and cowardice I have seen. Big salaries and perks during the boom distracted people from seeing that they we being used. If you work 80 hour weeks, you are doing the work of two for the price of one. Who is the sucker?

    --
    "Life is life." --Laibach
  20. Communicate, people! Communicate! by jtheory · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Neither of these is a good answer at this time!!

    Maybe the description of the situation left some things out... but this really seems like a big case of an "us against them" failure of communication. Notice this bit: "You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens." Feelings, huh? You don't know what's going on or why, but you have these feelings?

    There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt. There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."

    Do you get it? You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.

    Important: approach everything with a friendly, "we're all doing what we can" attitude. As soon as you get hostile, whoever you're talking to will get an uncontrollable urge to dig in their heels. Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.

    If you start getting frustrated with anything other than the economy, calm down and pick up the conversation later.

    Bottom line: decide what kind of sacrifices this company is worth to you, and get in on the big picture.

    Good luck.

    --
    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". - Albert Einstein

    --
    There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
  21. Re:Result by arivanov · · Score: 4, Insightful

    May I refrase the question:

    Will you prefer a daft slug that stays until the final solution has descended on the office?

    Alternatively, will you take someone who can actually foresee the reality and where will the business develop to and has gone and tried to fend for himself before the shit has hit the fan (due to some idiot PHB with a mi(bi)llion sized compensation package)? Or an idiot with no business sense and a firm belief that "Build it and they will come"?

    I frankly prefer to work people with guts, brains and at least some elementary survival skills. If you like to work the gutless and brainless ones I am not really amused that you have to speak about things like loyalty to retain employees. That is instead of speaking of business perspectives (if any).

    Overall, loyalty is a concept to be mentioned around countries and ideologies. Die for your country for loyalty reasons - yes. Stay on a sinking ship (company) for loaylty sake - the f*** no.

    Loyalty and business do not mix. A decent business should cause a sufficient level of interest in the employee for him/her to be loyal without having to call on that loyalty. That is especially and mainly from the "what happens next perspective". Under "what happens next" I do not mean tomorrow. I mean years down the road. Yeah, times can get tough. But there is no reason to despise an employee that has jumped ship in a tough time if you could not make him/her believe that the times will get better and when they will get better.

    --
    Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
    http://www.sigsegv.cx/
  22. exit with grace by asr_man · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's the first few questions you'll be asked at your next job interview?

    Why are you looking for a job?

    Why did you leave your previous job?

    Would your former employer rehire you?

    Make sure the way you exit provides the best possible answers to these questions. You'll regret it if not.

    When I was in a similar situation, I got the next job first and then I wrote two resignation letters: the one wanted to send, which is still fun to read, and the cordial one I did send. The object is not so much to avoid burning bridges but to let them stew in the regret of not to being able to hold on to such a desirable employee. Flip the bird on the way out and it'll only give you more trouble later.

  23. Blackball by tmark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you do organize a mass walkout, which screws the rest of the company like you think it will, prepare for the likelihood that anyone who knows or hears anything about the incident - including your managers, people who know your managers, your co-workers, your friends, and even your collegaues who walk out with you - will remember that you were all sh*t disturbers who acted and colluded in a particular way to screw your company when things got tough. The world is smaller than you think.

    It would take me about 1 second to decide toss a resume of a guy in your situation who did what you plan to. Nobody needs agitators, least of all a company in somewhat dire straits.

    If things are so bad, quit, by yourself. If things are bad for others, they'll probably quit too. But getting others involved in an organized fashion for the explicit purpose of making it tough for the company is unprofessional and will rightly brand you as a trouble maker.

  24. Try this. by twitter · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Q: So, why did you leave your last position?

    A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.

    BZZZZZT, wrong answer.

    A: We did not like the way our management was handeling our product so we formed a partnership. You may be familiar with OUR_NAME and OUR_PRODUCTS and OUR_CLIENTS.

    Of course, the question only has to be answered if the partnership fails. As such partnerships are the way of free software and free software is the future, I would not project a failure. If you end up with an interviewer that wants to work you to death and dispose of you, you might be better off somewhere else.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  25. My advice? Be professional. Always. by tmoertel · · Score: 5, Insightful
    My advice? Be professional.

    That doesn't mean you must work overtime in terrible conditions for poor pay. But it does mean, if you decide to take your employment elsewhere, that you leave the company like a professional.

    Treat your reputation like a valuable possession -- because it is.

    You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out.
    Sorry, but walking out is a "screw-your-employer" gesture. It's about as unprofessional as you can get and, even worse, makes you look vindictive. Is that really the impression you want to leave? Do you really want to trade a good piece of your reputation for a few fleeting moments of take-this-job-and-shove-it jubilation?

    Be professional. Give two weeks notice.

    Like most people, you are probably under an "at will" employment agreement that gives you the right to walk out whenever you please. Don't do it. Give the two weeks, which is universally considered reasonable and comes at no cost to your good reputation.

    If you do resign, tender your resignation in writing. Make it simple, polite, and direct -- professional. Something like, "I am writing to inform you of my resignation, effective on date ." That's all you need. Do not include a grand, barbed explanation of why you're leaving, which is especially tempting when you feel that your employer has wronged you.

    When your employer receives a stack of resignation letters on the same day, they'll get the point. No need for you to draw circles around it or point to it with big red arrows.

    Remember: When you leave, do so in a way that makes it clear to your employer that they are losing somebody valuable. Be professional.

  26. Re:And at your next job interview... by Chewie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "So, why did you leave your last company?"

    "They were treating me badly enough that I had to weigh what was more important: My self-respect or a paycheck. I came to the conclusion that I had to leave."

    "How were they treating you?"

    "They started by asking for more work hours and some time on call, because the company was going through some tough times. However, it grew to about eighty hours a week just in the office, plus 24-hour call with no compensation, appreciation, or acknowledgement of our effort. It also became clear that even if the company started doing better, they would view it as more economical to keep up the workload."

    "That was unacceptable to you? You weren't able to negotiate a better position?"

    "No, there was no room for negotiation. To provide service to the customers, we did it. It had to be done, customers were depending on it, and we collectively stepped up to the plate for the good of the company."

    You see? Spin. It works for presidents, it can work for you. If there's one thing I hate, it's interviewers who think it's their job to rake you over the coals before you can join their golden circle of employment. Just because it's an employer's market doesn't mean you have to act like an ass.

    --
    49 20 68 61 76 65 20 74 6F 6F 20 6D 75 63 68 20 66 72 65 65 20 74 69 6D 65 2E
  27. Self Delusion by smack.addict · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Technologists are particularly prone to the delusion that the company cannot run without them. In truth, everyone in an organization is expendable. If you are not expendable, that really means you are doing a bad job and they are probably better off in the long term without you anyways.

    If you are unhappy where you work, execute a job search and leave when you have another job. In the mean time, work with your bosses to see if you cannot improve the situation. If you do work with them and improve it, you will be happy AND you will be more important. If it does not improve, at least you have ammunition when you are asked what steps you took before deciding to leave at an interview.

    Under no circumstances should you talk about leaving or hint that you are actively seeking another job. Their first hint should be your 2 weeks notice. Even if you think you are being nice, you really risk only creating suspicion.

  28. Re:Result by Blkdeath · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I was going to suggest unionizing, but like I said, I Am Not A Lawyer Or A Union Organizer.

    You don't need to be a union to walk out, neccesarily. Here in Canada we have something called "Wildcat strikes", where regular employees band together for a specific purpose and walk out.

    The submitter would do best to contact his local labour board (and legal counsil) to determine his rights in this regard. If not properly researched, it's entirely plausible that his employer could fire his entire department as a result. Fired for walking out == no UI and a lousy reference.

    --
    BD Phone Home!

    Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

  29. Re:Communicate, people! Communicate! by infinite9 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt.

    No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1. So there's now no time to accrue vacation before christmas. How nice. And those altruistic beings who are just looking out for the company? Let's see how quick they are to give back that benefit once the economy turns around.

    There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."

    Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
    You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.


    Have you ever had a paycheck bounce? I have. Have you ever had your employer siezed by the IRS for failure to pay payroll taxes? I have. Have you ever been promised bonueses on eight separate occaisions and received a fraction on one only once? I have. Have you ever been fired because your manager thought you were better than him? I have. Have you ever gotten in trouble for not predicting the future or reading someone's mind? I have. Have you ever predicted a project's failure months and millions of dollars in advance? I have.

    Have you ever been warned before your employer goes out of business? I never have.
    Employers are not on your side. Ever. There are only two possibilities. If it's a private company, they're on the owner's side. If it's a public company, they're on the shareholder's side. Never yours. You are a commodity to be exploited however possible, no matter what the HR propaganda says.

    Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.


    And you'll be the first to be laid off. Employers want sheep. If you want to keep your job, act like one. Tell them nothing because they're certainly not volunteering any information. If you don't like your job, find another one. But never let them know you're looking. Otherwise, they'll remove you before you have the next job lined up.

    Like it or not, you're in a business relationship with your employer. One in which you're at an extreme disadvantage. If your employer wants to cut your benefits, they simply say, "Well, things are tight, so we're zapping vacation this year." Can you imagine what would happen if you did that? "Well boss, you've been working me harder so I'm going to take an extra week of vacation this year." After the laughter subsides, they'll replace you.

    The work culture in this country sucks. And it's time for a change.

    --
    Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
  30. Be Machievelian about it. by LibertineR · · Score: 5, Insightful
    First, walkouts are for pussies. If you walk out, understand that your job is 99% over. Your mission at this point is to get revenge on your boss. If you are let back in, it will only be until your ass can be replaced. So, decide that if you are going, go.

    Now, here is the hard part.

    Say NOTHING.

    No contact, period.

    Just leave, dont look back, accept no messages, open no mail, just send it back unopened. If your entire crew does that, you can insure that your former boss is toast. One thing that people do naturally is talk too much. Silence is power.

    If you keep quiet, the HR department will be ORDERED to find out what happened. Meanwhile your group picks a single person who is NOT an employee to do all the talking for your side. If you let multiple people talk, they will turn your words against you. It also prevents you from being served with a lawsuit notice.

    That person meets with HR off the premises alone, and gives them a single list of complains attributed to the group, without specifying individuals. HR will demand to speak to employees before anything happens. Resist and let them replace you if nessesary. Do NOT allow anyone from your group to speak with them for any reason, no matter how trivial.

    The frustration will be directed at your Boss who is still there. Their ability to manage people will be questioned. There could be no other conclusion, due to your extreme position in not speaking with them. Your company will start looking for your boss' replacement while he is looking for yours.

    You may never get your jobs back, but you can insure that the pain you cause your company will cause your boss to lose his job too. You need to decide just how far you are willing to take this. If you are just pissed off, you will get no satisfaction. If you are committed, you might be able to inact some sort of revenge on your former boss.

    Look around at your group. If you have any pussies in it, forget the above and get back to work; you fucking slacker, you.

  31. Re:Result by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Loyalty and business do not mix.

    this is the single most important thing that has ever been said on slashdot.

    All of you need to remember this phrase. I dont care if your boss is your best friend, you have been there cince day 1, whatever...

    when it comes down to the wire they are not and never have been loyal to you as an employee. They will can your ass with as much regret as not having chicken salad for lunch.

    you as an employee mean nothing to them (management) because if you did, you would have been promoted into management. (and then you still mean nothing.)

    Remember 2 important things.

    1 - they do not own you. no matter how they try and make you think that.

    2 - YOU are doing them a favor by working there, not the other way around. You were the cheapest they could find at your skillset. if there was someone cheaper, they would have hired them instead. and your replacement will walk into the job at a pay rate that you are at now or a little higher.

    Dont trust your employer, dont be loyal to your employer, and do not under any circumstances forget that you are making money for them by doing them a favor in showing up every morning and using your skills and talents.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  32. Re:Result by dslbrian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Walkout but make sure you have the next job ready
    I can second this. Myself and two coworkers recently (last Sept) left our old job for a new opportunity. We were all EE-majors doing IC design work at a major cell phone maker. It wasn't a bad job, but the dept was crippled by bad management. Projects that should have taken months took years instead, and even then a good bit of them were eventually cancelled. All the while the boneheads in the organization floated to the top and the whole mess degenerated into a political power grab for upper mgmt to feed their egos into thinking they were doing something important.
    It might not sound untolerable, but trust me after you work on a project for a long time, spending uncountable hours of overtime on it, only to have some bonehead screw it up, you get seriously pissed off. So, after enduring this for a while, myself and a couple others (majority of the core people in our group) decided to look elsewhere. The choice of people was not accidental. The three of us were diverse enough in skills and experienced enough in past projects to function as a self contained design group.
    Outside of work we negotiated with various people to move ourselves as a group to a new company. This is where industry contacts really pay off. This part took a long time (on the order of a year or more), and a couple of our opportunities collapsed before they ever got anywhere. But eventually we negotiated to all move to a new company and form a new design group. At that point we got offer letters extended to all of us, told our previous employer we were leaving, and a week later we were in new offices, with new cubes, etc.
    Now in the short term it sucked as we all put in a lot of overtime in order to set a good impression on our new employers. They had a bunch of urgent projects for us to chew on, so they were eager to have us go. Everyone got ~30% pay increases to boot, so it all worked out. There is always the risk of unemployment in the near term, whereas in the old job one could assume some amount of job security (I personally think this is a bad assumtion), but I wouldn't change my decision either way.
    The thing people should realize above all is that job security does NOT come from your job, it comes from your skills. If you have skills, you can get a job. Jobs come and go, but your skill set stays with you. The best thing you can do as far as job security is to learn as much as you can and augment your skills as much as you can.
    I would recommend that if you know a group that is skilled and intends to leave a company, work on lining up a new job first. It may take time, but there are huge advantages in moving as a group. The new company should realize that in acquiring a group of people, they not only get new skilled people, but people that have proven that they -can-work-together-. This is a great benefit, especially if the group can work on its own. In addition, you end up knowing your coworkers, and what their skills are or are not. Pick good people, and move as a group, I would highly recommend it if you can do it.

  33. Re:Result by Chris+Y+Taylor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "They will can your ass with as much regret as not having chicken salad for lunch."

    Written like someone who has never had to lay someone off. A good businessman will be willing to make hard decisions, but that doesn't mean he will have no feelings of regret.

    "do not under any circumstances forget that you are making money for them by doing them a favor in showing up every morning and using your skills and talents."

    I don't know about that; I know quite a few people that must cost their employers more money than they bring in. They do not "do their employers a favor" in showing up. Why aren't they fired? Not every employer is a ruthless business tycoon who can be modeled as a "rational man" decision maker. Spend a little more time working in the private sector, and perhaps your "black and white" take on the employer/employee relationship will be a little more realistic.