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Notebooks and Mini ITX Machines as Home Servers?
An anonymous reader asks: "I recently moved into a townhouse (the first time on my own, actually) and need to get a server up and running before the other trivial stuff (furniture, getting food in the fridge, *getting* a fridge, etc, etc). I need the basic set of services - HTTP, FTP, DNS, SMTP/POP3 for any self respecting geek. The drawback is that I'm on a limited budget (money and space wise) and need a server that is *extremely* energy efficient, takes up little space, makes no noise, and generates very little heat. A basic P4 notebook seems to fit the bill - small, low power consumption, built in screen/keyboard/mouse (no need for KVM), wireless so I can stick it on the top shelf of my closet, and generates less heat and noise than your average desktop. Is there any reason to consider, say, a mini ITX rig (such as a shuttle) over this? Any drawbacks?"
A mini-itx setup should be signifigantly cheaper than a P4 laptop. It also is somewhat upgradable, though that depends on the exact MB you get. I would look into the VIA Epia/Edens, as they are extremely enegery efficent and produce very little heat.
Twostep
There are 10 different types of people in this world... those who understand binary, and those who don't.
If you're looking for cost effective I'd say a notebook is definately out.
Go the MiniITX. Make yourself a cool case, submit to some places, feel better about yourself and meet new and exciting people.
A Mini-ITX rig, with an integrated Via C3 processor, will probably perform about as well as an Intel Celeron, a little bit weaker in the floating-point realm.
These machines are designed to be low-power, high-efficiency machines, where the emphasis is a quiet, cool system, rather than a high-performance one. For instance -- home theatre, mobile audio/video (car, truck) or light terminals in high-traffic areas. Many of them have hardware assisted MPEG decoding, to allow them to play DVDs and such in a home-theatre setting without heating up or glitching due to the limitations of the CPU.
If you wanted to run one of these as a TCP service provider (http, ftp, etc.) you're probably fine. But I wouldn't use this for anything "heavy" including, a high-volume e-mail server, Active Directory or DNS server, etc. The CPU just doesn't have enough power to push these services with sufficient performance.
Cliffnotes:
Mini-ITX: Good for light useage. Applications: Personal HTTPd/FTPd, personal e-mail server, home router, file server.
Bad applications: Active Directory / PDC, DNS, etc.
I did this with an old P120 laptop, and I had over 500 days of uptime (well, it rolled over at 497).
Some cautions to consider: laptops aren't designed as servers. I've heard stories of hard drives not surviving continuous use. Newer systems with fans still generate noise and heat--be sure it's ventilated.
The Via Eden processor is *designed* to use little power. It doesn't even need a fan. You can buy mini-itx boards with an eden processor.
There\'s no place like ~
I have a P4 2Ghz, with 17" monitor, laser printer, router, Cisco ATA and scanner that is up and running 24/7, and out monthly power bill is around $20. That is here in Southern California, where our electricity bills are ridiculously high too. That $20 power bill also takes into account that we use a lot of lights, and usually have the tv going.
This leads me to ask, why spend a bunch of money on a notebook or shuttle case to use as a server? If you're on a tight budget, won't one of those cost you a lot more than a regular PC would use in power?
My biggest disappointment is the noise level. There are three fans in the thing: CPU, PS, and Case.
I can't really speak to power since I power on/off the unit as I need it.
This is a boring sig
I dont know what your talking about, my monthly electricity bill is around $160. I guess that could be due to the 10 computers running 24/7 but they couldnt take that much power could they :)
Stay away from the shuttles, they're pricey. You can pick up a compatible P3 LAN motherboard, a cheap PSU, some PC133 RAM, and an 800 mhz Socket 370 C3 for around 100 dollars. Put it in a box with a pre-existing HDD and a fan, and you have a server for 1/8th the cost of a new Laptop.
After setting it up, you won't interact with it via the screen / keyboard anyway, so don't bother.
And if your C3 costs are getting too high, pick up a $200 lindows box at walmart.com. Just remember to upgrade the fans to Panaflos, as the walmart box is tremendously, tremendously loud.
BTW, for more silencing tips, visit SilentPCReview.com. That's Silent PC Review dot C-O-M.
The ______ Agenda
I remember when a previous employer had four servers set up in a mini-rack. It was a very efficient use of space. As far as a laptop goes.
Options:
Get an old pentium and make do, for 350.
Best Buy has HP 1.8ghz celeron lappy's for 699 and up
If you do need the power of a P4, then you will probably have to pay for it.
Pros of the laptop:
Built in UPS
Very low power consumption
Cons:
compatibility may be an issue if you run linux
longevity not as good as server
bang per dollar
OTOH, you mention the mini-itx cases. Why? Because they are cool? I don't think they use any less power than a full size. Is there a space constraint?
with the mini itx
Pros
Cheaper
sort-of expandable
cheaper replacement parts
looks cool -- chicks dig it
Cons
more power usage
I guess my big question is what are you gonna do with it? "The usual geek stuff" can be handled with a P-300 last I checked-- just buy an old laptop. But also, is power that expensive? You are *buying* a house, the ten bucks a month in electric surely won't bust ya. I don't get it.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw
You can get a number of units that will be smaller, cheaper, quieter, and produce less heat than either Mini-ITX or a laptop.
For instance:
http://www.soekris.com/
It's an X86 PC that boots off of a CF card. Perhaps you could use this with an external HD enclosure, or network-mounted storage?
The laptop has a poor CPU/$ ratio and those little laptop drives aren't very speedy compared to the average 3.5" disk.
Best bang for the buck is probably an off-the-shelf compact system with a low-end processor in it. Use power management and a LCD screen and the power consumption/heat won't be too bad. Replace the fans with quiet ones and tuck it in a corner somewhere. Go see what's available cheap at the big chains, or check out the compact machines that Dell is making these days...
-Bill
Getting a P4 notebook or a mini-itx rig might even be overkill.
Think about it, how fast does a household server need to be? Assuming that you don't have anything more than a 1.5mbps 'net connection (which I highly dobut), you don't need massive processing power, or all the bells and whistles of a P4 notebook or Mini-ITX system. A Pentium3 or Pentium2 notebook may perfectly fit the bill. You can easily find a used P2 or P3 very cheaply.
That being said, I would steer clear of the VIA-powered systems. A 1ghz VIA chip is said to be slower than a 400mhz celron (ouch!). The P4/Athlon-based Mini-ITX rigs are a much better bet in terms of performance, but they will draw more power and make more noise (unless you choose to underclock the chip -- this has been proven to produce good results).
Of course, you may want to revaluate why you're even doing this. Why does a server need to consume low power and be quiet?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
I have a pentium 166 as my router/firewall. I put in an old 256 megabyte harddrive, installed Linux, setup iptables, then copied the important files to a tmpfs filesystem, remounted / read-only, and spun-down the harddrive. A completely quiet system (the processor doesn't need a fan).
If you need more speed for some reason, try a Via C3 processor. With a good heatsink you shouldn't need a fan at all.. even if, the fans required make little or no noise.
I found that harddrives are too loud. If you need to write to the disk, get one of those 'low noise' harddrives. Alternatively, you can try a flash disk which would be quiet and wouldn't have to be spun-down; however, you would only have a limited number of writes.
What I have done is purchase a socket 370 Via C3 online (they go for like 30 bucks for a 900Mhz that uses very little power) and then just used an old socket 370 mini atx case (ya know, the one with 2 PCI slots and EVERYTHING else built onboard). No harddrives in it, I run everything off of CD and use Ramdisks for RW stuff. It's a little noisy when it first boots up but after 45 seconds or so, it's as quiet as a powersupply fan and a CPU fan can be. Cheap too, I think I have a total of 60 bucks invested (god love ebay). So in short, be a geek and build your own. The power difference over a year between the eden boards and a C3 you can buy will amount to a super sized extra value meal over a year.
www.linux-skunkworks.com
Ive had to look for a small minimalist firewall+server, and the best thing Ive come across is an old Pentium1 IBM system. Its low-profile, and the power supply is 200W. 200MHz and 64MB Ram using FreeBSD has been enough for me serving 7 domains with their webpages, mysql and postgresql, qmail with virtualhosts, ircd, samba, VPN and other things I cant remember. Ive also installed similar systems at other places including homes and offices, and manage them through ssh. Uptimes have been since the installation and have never had a performance problemo.
Am thinking now to replace the IBM system with a Sun Ultra 5, just for the heck of it. I dont think you should go for a power-guzzling Duron or any system with a loud processor fan. Nor should you have to go with an ATX tower with extra drive bays. Be minimalistic and efficient and you wont need a Pentium4 unless you plan to serve your webpage through an IBM Websphere and DB2.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
...and dont forget the built in UPS to boot...
I too have been looking into putting together a small media server/web services
machine. A little research turned up, Mini-ITX.
I would start here, its a pretty good site that has a lot of information of
what you can do with mini-itx and features note worthy products as they come
out. Personally I think what you need is a HUSH.
Its the size of a dvd player, its completely silent and its so low power that
the power supply (95watts I think it is) is external. It might not be the cheapest
itx option out there but it fits all your (and mine) requirements and adds the
nice look factor aswell. They seem like a pretty good shop and they even let
you buy it without an OS, which I'm sure you'll (and me too but for different
reasons) appreciate. If you do get one I suggest getting it with 128ram and
buying more ram elsewhere, they're based in Germany and the value of the Euro
really shoots up the price of ram (and everything else I imagine). Btw I don'
work for these guys so don't assume I do, but I'd gladly trade a free one for
advertising these guys as often as possible.
And before anyone says it, I have imagined a beowulf cluster of these :)
[Just Shut Up and Do What I say]
The gray ("Graphite"), blue ("Indigo") and white ("snow") models look nice and fit into most decors. They were selling new for about $800 until recently. Used ones should be in the $500 range.
Note that the G4-based flat panel iMacs and the G4-based CRT eMacs have CPU fans.
If your laptop/server is more important than your fridge, you have a serious problem, methinks.
Just wanted to point this out. Not to be a jerk.
Here we use a P120 laptop w/OpenBSD as a wireless router. Used to serve files and mysql webs off it but got slow, so moved serving to a "mini" system.
Don't use the MSI NetPC MS-6215T system as a server. The power supply is only 90 watts. I ran it 24/7 for a year, the next time I powered it down, it wouldn't power back up. Was running a P3 Tualatin (low power) 1.13ghz, Geforce PCI card, Wifi, and 60gb hard drive. Now I power the system with a standard sized ATX power supply sitting outside the case. Works but is UGLY.
But do use the Shuttle SS51g. It has a small but full power 200w power supply. Been running the hell out of this thing with 60+80gb hard drives, Geforce AGP, and Wifi. Not a single problem. Also the cooling solution in these things is very very nice.
those CPUs use 35watts *at least* and up to 100w if you get a "notebook" with a desktop P4 in it.
If power consumption is your concern buy an older notebook off ebay, look for an old Pentium MMX or low end celeron. Or for more modern low power performance get something with a crusoe.
one thing notebooks will not have is ECC memory (no demand for it so it'd cost too much for manufacturers to bother supporting it).
Sparc 5s were our DNS servers for a site with 500 machines and a 100mbit/sec internet connection. A Sparc 10 was our mail server for the same location (a previous job).
what do you mean a mini-itx system doesn't have enough cpu power to handle dns and mail. get real. stop running exchange.
I used an old notebook (TI TM4000M 486/75) for a firewall and print server. The LCD screen was broken so I just removed it. I could do pretty much everything from a network connection to it and I used an external monitor while setting it up. I used two bargain pccard NIC's. A neat benefit of using an old notebook like this is that you have an automatic UPS for it because it will switch over to battery and you can have it save your print queue to disk.
I used the notebook as a fileserver in college, but that was a bad idea. The hard drive could not handle this. The case of a notebook is tight and with the disk usually spinning there was no opportunity for it to cool down. After one weekend of this the drive was toast. Maybe newer laptops deal better with this. It was fun to replace the internal disk and see how everything was crammed in there though. Plus I was able to replace it with a bigger drive.
This one had a SCSI connector and I did have an old external dirve I used with it later. I tried to use it for file serving again, but there was no way to put enough memory in the machine to use it practically for something like this. With such a low power laptop like this you should be able to do PPPoE, firewall, and print server well but that is about it.
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A Sun Sparc has a much better processor than a VIA EPIA board does...
The idea of batteries as a UPS is kind of a problem. You'll probably fry the expensive battery in less than a year. I only use batteries when I need to move the machines and run on a real UPS the rest of the time.
Memory on an older laptop can be a problem. The ones I have use EDO SO-DIMMs. Going from 2x64m to 2x128m would cost me $300-800. If I had picked laptops that used a pair of SDRAM sticks, I could probably get to 256m for $50.
One of my biggest problems with using these laptops as servers is that it feels like such a waste. I've got friends that could still squeeze a good bit of life out of them, especially on a wireless lan. In fact I've given away most of my stack and I'm down to just one busted-up spare.
You might want to classify that just a bit.
A 200Mhz sparc II is not a better processor than a VIA. Sorry to burst your bubble.
One should not theorize before one has data. -Sherlock Holmes-
they're small, low power, quiet (fanless is possible), and cheap.
VIA were supposed to come out with a dual-ethernet model for servers at the end of May but I haven't seen it yet (the CL model) anybody know anything about it??
For what it's worth, old laptops can make great servers for low-intensity use. One trick I've used before is to remove the hard disk and replace it with a compactflash card attached to a CF2.5" IDE adaptor in order to A. replace the only moving part with something less failure prone and B. make the laptop silent instead of merely quiet.
The only caveat is that you need to have enough ram for your application to never need swap (64 meg is more than enough for basic non-X, non-java server and/or firewall use). Never ever run a swap file or partition on flash media - you will quickly exhaust the limited write cycles of the flash media.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
US Robotics have just launched the USR8200 storage router. XScale based, runs Linux. Plug in a Firewire drive and it's a file server.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
The answer to your question is quite simple, just get a 2nd hand dell (or any other make) office workstation. There are plenty of these out there, they're cheap & they're compact (you could even just put one under your hifi system). They are also quite reliable.
;) ), and even if you do you cn get a cheap old 15" monitor & keyboard for close to nohting.
You don't need a monitor or keyboard for a simple server (that's what ssh & vnc is for
If you buy and old pII and underclock it you don't even need a CPU ventilator and the server's quiet as an ant pissing on cotton.
You also have enough space to put in a real hard disk (laptop hds just don't cut it, they have a tendancy to go capblamo when used as a server).
I just happened across an old Macintosh 7200 one day, a coworker heard I dug old Macs and thought I might have a use for it. This particular Mac has a 120MHz PPC processor, had a 16 MB memory chip of sorts in it, and a 1GB SCSI hard drive. It is PCI based, so I was able to just throw some 3Com NICs in it. Cost-wise I couldn't tell you, since all this stuff was free or laying around. It is very quiet though, only a small power supply fan. 120MHz and 16MB of RAM has no problem routing/filtering 2Mbps while doing DNS and DHCP. I used Yellow Dog 2.something that I had laying around.
Feel free to email me if you want more details.
i'm using a mini-itx (800 Mhz version) as a home server right now. i have it mounted to a wooden shelf, without a case.
the board and hard drive (2.5" laptop drive) use little enough power that i was able to take the fan out of the power supply without it overheating (its been 10 months). with adequate ventilation you should be able to rip the fan out also- just remove the cover of the power supply or drill some extra holes in it so the air can circulate.
mini-itx makes 2 fanless motherboards as well, but you will sacrifice either cpu speed or extra cash to get one.
Somewhere on this page I have hidden my signature.
It is more expensive than it used to be, but it is hardly expensive... It is now just costing california citizens what it costs to produce and ship the electricity that they use.
That said, thank the Government for buying power at the high point of the market and locking in those rates for 20 years, rather than let the free economy work and utilities lock rates when they are favorable
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
In Canada but they ship to the US. They have Casetronic bookshelf cases with external PSU, get the M6000 board with the fanless CPU. Buy the barebone and get your drives and memory somewhere local, they're too expensive at mini-pc.ca This system has only 55W power supply!! So you can't load it up on drives but if you need a good one-drive system thios looks like it.
Seagate Barracuda drives are silent and the Maxtor Diamondmax drives are supposed to be quiet too.
I have the EPIA 800 with the 800MHz C3 in one of these cases with 40GB Maxtor drive and it's pretty quiet. The C3's fan has an annoying whine, that's why I suggest the M6000 with the fanless CPU. Remember as a home server this machine will not be limited too much by CPU speed. Oh, also the M6000 has TV out, and will play a DVD with hardware MPEG2 decoder (hint - use Power DVD, some players aren't going to work right but Power DVD seems OK according to what I've read). The 800 can't double as a media player very well, it will drop a LOT of frames from your DVD.
If you want more power go for the M10000. The warning here is that it only has 1 memory slot.
For a budget server with no multimedia capabilities get the cheapest board the EPIA V 5000 with 500 Mhz CPU. Probably OK for file serving.
Check out the Netwinder line of small servers. I'm running a couple here with the Debian ARM port.
Oh bollocks.
Sparc 5s and Sparc 10s ran on CPUs that would be considered underpowered in a PDA these days.
Sure, they got good throughput compared with PCs of the time thanks to their more sensible bus, but they don't stand a hope in Hell of keeping up with any modern CPU (and that includes C3s).
I run a miniITX with a C3-900Mhz. I got a nice little CF->IDE adapter on ebay for $10 and use a 128MB CF card for permanent storage. The machine has 512MB of RAM and i have a custom gentoo setup.
/use/portage via NFS so its available on the server. The server runs a basic system without X/sound/etc.
i run gentoo on my main box and export
How about an XBOX? $180, stylish, small, and a game console to boot (no pun intended)!
Sure, it's not the fastest system in the world, but it's cheap, quiet and reliable. Red Hat 8.0 loaded without any problems so I am willing to bet that other distributions would drive the board just as well.
Ed Almos
I have a Toshiba Libretto with a P75 CPU, which I'm currently using as a home server: it's quiet, it's quite powerful enough to run Apache with SSL on Debian, and it does everything I need.
However, even the small noise it does make, is pretty annoying when trying to listen to a quiet passage of music, DVD, etc. (it's in my front room).
So if you're starting from scratch, I'd recommend getting an VIA Eden 600Mhz based mini-itx setup, so it's silent, and assuming you need a lot of storage, invest in a laptop hard drive, because they're quieter than full size ones.
Laptops are very very bad with heat. They are not really designed to run 24/7.
So as others suggested the Mini-ITX is cheaper, more efficient and a lot more likely to stand up to working 24/7. You can also add decent harddrives and memory.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I bought a micro-ATX Book PC and had to replace the power supply 3 times. They are notorious for putting in cheap@ss power supplies that simply burn out for a couple different reasons.
The 3rd time I simply extracted the motherboard and everything else to another full size case with a power supply with 2-3 times the capacity.
Check out http://groups.msn.com/BOOKPC/powersupply.msnw for more info.
* Except when it's not.
** Except when it does.
I bought an EPIA 5000 board with a 500MHz VIA C3 built-in for $90. I picked up a 128MB stick of PC133 for $15 on ebay and a blue IBM Netvista Flex-ATX case for another $30 or so. I had a 40gig Maxtor sitting around.
Using a CDROM drive temporarily connected to the setup, I installed Clarkconnect, which is based upon Red Hat 7.3. Clarkconnect gives you a simple web-based interface and lets you run and manage several types of servers, including mail, samba, DNS and Squid. The box runs headless tucked into a corner of my home office and serves out files to my laptop and my fiance's Mac via samba.
Overall, I am very satisfied. However, I have noticed that if I try to rip a CD to MP3 and specify the server as the destination drive (over samba), its networking will shut down *sometimes*. The same thing happened when I temporarily tried out FreeBSD 4.7 on the exact same hardware.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Actually, Shuttle doesn't produce a mini-ITX machine. The do produce a line of so-called XPCs, with a custom form factor. Some of these can use C3 processors, just like some mini-ITX mainboards.
If you're disappointed with the noise level, I'd recommend checking out the SS51G1, SB52G2, SS51G, or SB61G2, all of which have heat pipes, which are capable of cooling the CPU much more quietly than fans.
you parents probably have an old P-166 one in their basement next to a Amana Radar Range that died back in '85. Find a frind that has a zip-lock bag full of old simms (you know who you are). But do purchase two new hard drives and set up raid 1. total cost about $100. my p-pro has been running for about 4 years now 24/7 (other than a hard drive failue). scrap the monitor and key board once its set up. use ssh.
I second the older Pentium solutions. Mine is a 233, with 256MB and 2 60GB HDs mirrored. Mount on a standard size board which supports multiple PCI cards (3 ethernet), install in a mid-tower with a small ps, add only necessary fans and put in a closet. It's fully functional, expandable, cheap, and reasonably energy efficient.
-- "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." - R.A.H.
They look the same at first glance, but service processors are the boxes that control really big data equipment, like disk arrays and heavy duty communications equipement. They are usually mounted in the door to swing down when needed. They are manufactured by laptop makers like Twinhead, but there are several differences. For instance, the batteries are usually removed (avoiding leakage problems) and the hard drive is server quality. They are designed to run for years on end, monitoring the big box, and "phoning home" if they notice anything wrong.
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
That would have cost about $554.00 last month. My plan is to eventually use Freevo to make myself a nice hackable home theatre box that no one can cripple in the future, and that supports OGG files.
Anyhow, if you don't want multimedia power, you can reconfigure to use the fanless VIA and ditch the fancy sound card, tv card, dvd player, and PCI riser. That'd drop the price to around $350.00. A chopped down machine will use 35W (peak) and be 16"x12"x4" - about the size of a VCR.
Disclamer: I haven't actually tried this yet, I'm just planning.
I used to be a narrator for bad mimes. (wright)
First, you mention that a laptop doesn't generate much heat. While it doesn't necessarily heat up my room as much as my dual Athlon box, certain areas of the laptop get red-hot, even on new ones. I end up putting things between the laptop and my lap to prevent myself from getting set on fire. (Okay, small exaggeration...) I'd be concerned about overheating with it running 24/7. I'd actually suggest a 486. Someone threw away four or five ones (smallish cases, too) at my local dump (erm, recycling center... not like I'm digging through trash. There's a little bin for computer stuff.). It had no problem serving as a firewall for the cable modem here, and I'd suspect that if it's a small little thing you'll be running (ie, you're just hosting personal site / mail, as opposed to hosting Slashdot...), the 486 should actually be fairly powerful. The downside is that: 1.) You can't walk into a store and buy one, or parts for it. (But on the flipside, I've found several spare machines... A friend set up a 10-node cluster of 486s, and only paid for the cabling.) 2.) Power draw isn't super-low. But they're quiet, can be rather small, put off little heat, and you can get several entirely free. If you're running Linux on your desktop machine, can you use that as your server? The desktop I'm writing this on doubles as a webserver and DNS server.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Not UltraSparc.
Read: OLD. On the order of a 486 or maybe a classic Pentium in power.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I just picked up 5 Dell Servers to replace my aging home server farm. These machines go for $300 (after rebates) and have a 2.4Ghz P4 with a 40MB harddrive and 128MB RAM. Best of all the only use 250W power supplies so you won't need dedicated wiring. Toss in a 100GB or 200GB drive sprinkle in some RAM and your looking at a machine worthy of any small business setup that can handle anything you throw at it.
My home server is a Mini-ITX box that I bought from iDot Computers - it's a C3-533 processor in a case using an external PSU (feeding direct DC into the case and avoiding one fan that way). The lower-speed C3 is fanless, and I put a 30GB laptop 2.5" HD in it to lower heat even further, letting me disconnect the internal fan as well. The server's got 512MB of RAM, and it runs e-Smith server (based loosely on RedHat) with a plug-in package for Spamassassin added in.
I use it for file storage, web and mail services, and MP3 serving - it has a built-in 10/100 Ethernet connection and I have a cheap Linksys 10/100 switch. I support 4 client computers in the house typically - both Mac and Windows with no problem, and the web server doesn't have any trouble keeping up with a light load over my 1.5/768 DSL connection.
The box itself is utterly silent - there are occasional noises from the HDD, but it's a lot quieter than the typical desktop-class drive is. I keep it in a spare bedroom today, but when we move in a couple of months I have a small rack area planned in the basement of the new house and I'll be moving it downstairs at that point.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."