Slashdot Mirror
Body Adornments and a Career?
termilitor asks: "I was thinking about decorating myself with a tatoo. The only argument that holds me back is whether this will affect my career of a mathematician / computer programmer negatively. I would like to ask readers of the Slashdot if they have such experiences, including other types of self decoration, like body piercings and dyeing hair." It's always important to look professional when in the work-environment. The big question, of course, is how many of you believe such things are mutually-exclusive. Wearing a tattoo is a non-issue with the right clothes, but what about piercings and hair coloring? Can a happy medium exist between self-expression and the professional environment?
Can a happy medium exist between self-expression and the professional environment?
most employers take a dim view of self-expression. at least this is true in most of corporate america.
Are you really sure that you want to permanently alter your body? REALLY sure? There is a *reason* they call it permanent. And, for the most part, body "adornments" are pretty stinking ugly. Especially cheek and eye-brow piercings ... ugh. And tattoos are rarely very artistically executed - (there are, of course, exceptions.)
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Unless you're planning on getting "Poor Impulse Control" plastered on your forehead, don't worry about it. People expect mathematicians to be eccentric. In fact, mathematicians who aren't eccentric make regular people uneasy.
In mathematics, one does not understand things, one merely gets used to them.
--VonNeumann
I've run a consulting business since '94 with a brief break as CTO of a financial software company. I've died my hair a lot over the past 10 years, but never anything too crazy (it's been blonde, and also reddish brown).
Both my tattoos and my piercings are concealed easily by business clothing. I *did* have a tongue piercing for a little while, but got rid of it.
People were always amazed that I had tattoos and piercings when they found out....I guess most people assume that people who have them will have them somewhat visibly.
I guess part of your question revolves around how you carry yourself, too. I've always been a little 'larger than life'...I think if you're not prepared to put yourself 'out there', then you might be right thinking that you could get some negative feedback.
-psy
If you're going to dye your hair purple, then find employers that will hire people with purple hair. Likewise, if you like to wear a suit to work every day, don't work for a bunch of people with purple hair.
I mean, DUH.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Imagine for a moment that you are wearing a leisure suit and a mullet.
Now imagine that they are permanent.
That being said, if you are good and have a good manager, then it won't matter. However, you may have to leave an otherwise satifactory job because of other's stupidity.
This whole having to look "professional" thing really bugs me.
I really don't see the link between dressing in a suit and being *competent*. I don't comprehend it. And while I don't like tattoos and piercings, I can't understand that someone with a full body tattoo and a green mohawk is automatically considered incompetent and useless.
But in the corporate world it seems to be the way things are.
It's a sick world.
- Muggins the Mad
"Can a happy medium exist between self-expression and the professional environment?"
Of course. But then, she'd better be a well paid psychic if she's truly going to be a happy medium.
Why all the wierd ask slashdots lately?
-Adam
Many of the people I know don't use their tattoos as a means of self expression. Instead, it some how seems that the tatoo uses the person as a means for self expression.
In other words, everything in their life revolves around their tattoos or piercings. It's all about how society doesn't understand me because I've got "body art". Or I didn't get that job, or get a date with that girl/guy, or, oh my god my life is complete shit but at least I'm expressing myself because I've got body art!
Anyways. I also know quite a few people who do have simple tattoos or piercings that dont get in the way of a normal social life (yes, i'm making an assumption about the definition of normal). You don't have to have "FUCK YOU" tattooed across your forehead.
If the tattoo you are wanting makes you concerned that you won't get a job at IBM or Sun (much less SCO), then you may very well regret it later in life.
...about what you can get away with, you should be looking at employers who'll value you for your professional expertise and not how you look. It'll work out better in the long run.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
If you get a tattoo then you instantly become a social outcast. Your friends will hate you, you will never be able to find a job, even flipping burgers, and you'll never be able to find a signifigant other. Not only that but there is a 100% chance that you will contract hepatitis and of course two days after you get the tattoo you will become suicidal due to the intence depression you feel from having made such a big mistake.
In all seriousness though, a tattoo shouldn't be a big deal as long as it is easily concealed by standard business atire.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
The only problem with taking part in a fad like tatooing is that you need to live with it forever. Ten years from now, you are not likely to be with a crowd that still finds tatoos to be a "cool" thing.
Even if you never grow up mentally, time and gravity will take it's toll, and your tatoo will turn into a black and blue smear. Tatoo removal people will be rich when all the girls putting giant butterflies on their backs and ass turn 40.
Why don't you "express" yourself by coloring your hair purple or something. At least dye washes out eventually.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Everybody is different, and I suppose I wander in more conservative circles. But nearly everybody I've ever met who has a tattoo regrets it. Several of them are saving for laser tattoo removal. Remember that while the tattoo may express who you are today, you will be a different person 20 years from now. The tattoo might not express who you will be, but it will still be there expressing itself.
Perhaps there are better ways of expressing yourself. I mean, what does dying your hair or getting a piercing say? Everybody is going to interpret it differently, and many of them will get the wrong meaning. If the idea is to make yourself look a certain way, then I suppose it works. But if the idea is to communicate something, you probably could find a more effective and accurate way to do it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Anything more is a tool to help you filter out companies you wouldn't want to be a part of, anyway, without wasting too much time talking to them. Likewise potential mates, potential mates' parents, bands, river-rafting clubs, condo associations, military academies, supreme-judicial internships, churches, university faculties, and diplomatic appointments.
I've worn varying amounts of earrings in my ears for years (16 years, 11 of them in 'the real world' of business). Never had a problem. Let me repeat:
:-). Maybe it helps to be in a creative field (computer consulting, but I worked many years at Ford Motor, so that's a pretty 'standard' environment)
:-).
:-)
NEVER. EVER. EVER.
Don't listen to anyone at all who disses this. They underestimate how much people will put up with if you are confident and very good at what you do. I rate the confidence as more key than anything else. If you don't treat it as strange or unusual, people will put up with quite a bit.
Just expect to always be singled out as 'the strange one' in the department. For me, I never cared... either way. I don't get in people's faces with something assinine like "oh! look, look, I'm *different*". Especially since at this point I'm more part of the general crowd than anything
Now, a few cautions:
1) If you get a tattoo, get something you *can* cover up or play down if you are so inclined. Facial tattoos are only for those who really, really don't mind standing out and making compromises due to people's narrow viewpoints. You probably will find you'll prefer it this way anyway... better to have something you can *choose* to share with the crowd at large, because there are times where you'll want to *not* make the tattoo the focus of attention.
2) You will encounter dumb people. You may even encounter personal or career set-backs from this. It's always a chance. Assume that anything that happens like this is meant to be, and that you're better off not around those people or in that situation. If it's your mother crying over this, I suggest flowers and a hug and reassuring her that you're sorry you marked up the body she kept from harm all those years, but you were just expressing the creative side she always told you you had
3) As noted above, plan to be exceptional and very professional in your career. That will overcome any silly preconceptions most people might have. And yes, you can plan to be exceptional... It's pretty rare to be exceptional without putting some effort into that goal
4) Ask rec.arts.bodyart about this if you don't believe me. Tattooed, pierced, and otherly modified folks abound there. Many of them are very successful professionals, including my favorite librarian (hi Kate! I bet you're reading this!)
ciao!
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
The only argument that holds me back is whether this will affect my career of a mathematician / computer programmer negatively.
I look at it this way: What are the chances it will affect your career positively? None, right? So, what your considering is a move that will, at best, not torpedo your career.
The last time that choice wasn't obvious, I was 15 and did not yet know the sorrow of unemployment.
I'd get a tatoo of some BSD code, then tell SCO it's some of theirs! They'd probably believe me! A cool employer would understand my deep-seated need to do this.
(of course there's always the danger that Senator Orrin Hatch would find out and attempt to blow up my body, but I'm starting to think that danger was always there)
My company provides data for law offices and provides simple digitizing and digital services for people that don't know how to use scanners or to transfer their old family movies to DVD. Soon we'll be expanding into video production (what I REALLY want to be doing!). In the next few years we'll have retail stores/service centers in malls.
Personally, I think putting something on your body that will fade and look ugly in one's later years, or could be something that simply does not fit your personality after you grow or mature (and I'm not saying tats are immature) is, at the least unwise. It makes no sense to me (but neither do piercings -- even pierced ears on women) at all -- and I'm not exactly known as a conservative.
However it's not my job/business to judge your personal life. I want to know if you can do the job I am hiring you for. (And, from what I've seen in talking to other small business people, if you get a boss/interviewer as open minded as me, you're lucky!)
If you come into my office to interview for a "frontline" job where you're dealing with clients (or working in the storefronts when we have them open) and you have visible tats or piercings other than "normal" ear piercings on women, you won't get a job. It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what customers and clients think. I'm not going to take a chance on offending or bothering a lawyer client or a retail customer who may be a fundamentalist or a member of any other group with prejudices against non-conformists. As said elsewhere, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what others (customers and clients) think. I'm not going to let my business lose money because an employee wants to "express" him or her self.
On the other hand, if you're applying for a backline job, like programmer, sys admin, video editor, or even as camera man for our in-house productions, I don't care if you're The Illustrated Man. If you can do the job and interact well with the other employees so then can work with you easily and everyone does a good job, then you're hired.
Just the opinion as a business owner.
As a general person, my thought is tats and piercings may or may not hurt your career, but there's no reason to expect it to help. Why put the effort into doing something that may create problems in the long run?
As someone that has both body piercings and tats, think very carefully about alterining your body. None of my body art is visible when I am wearing business professional clothing. When I would think about an article of clothing that may be iffy if the artwork showed through, I wouldn't wear it.
The last corporate office that I worked at was an engineering and microelectronic firm. Noone knew about my artwork for almost a year before I saw someone after work and I was wearing something more reveiling. As long as my tattoos weren't seen, there was no issue in having them. The piercing wasn't seen at any time.
When you do decide to get a tattoo, ask around. In most cities there are some great artists that are very skilled at what they do. Same for piercing salons. Ask other people that have tattoos where they got their work done. They will give you a suggestion of whom to go to and whom to avoid. In the Phoenix area, Halo Piercing is one of the best and there are several excellent tattoo parlors - Club Tattoo, Blue Dragon and Artistic Tattoo to name a few.
As another poster mentioned, as long as it's not seen while wearing business attaire, it shouldn't matter about having body art or not.
Good luck in making the decision and take your time in finding what you what as a tattoo, that way you won't regret it. I don't regret mine at all!
design is art - art is design
First question: ...does it go with an Armani suit? =-)
Is it blatently, "offensively", openly, in-your-face visible?
Does it scream "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"?
Will it say to the boardroom "I shouldn't be here... I don't take anything seriously... please latch a dog leash to this ring in my nose and connect it up to my eyebrow while you're at it"?
Ask yourself a similar (but more common) question that women ask themselves each day before work: "Is this skirt too short / blouse too open / etc."? In other words... Is it appropriate for anything, anywhere, 'cause that's where you'll be wearing it!
Just before I moved to New Zealand, I put a Canadian flag on my upper arm, just above the short-sleeve cuff. I haven't had a problem... but I'm not throwing it in anyones face.
mindslip
If you're a woman you can probably get away with it. Mnay traditional, large companies are very strict about how men dress and have their hair etc. but apply much less rigorous rules to their female staff. It's a horrendous and blatant display of double-standards and anti-male discrimination. Maybe it is a relic from the days when people only considrered males to be serious employees and women to be less important? Who knows. I used to work for one of them. When I left I grew my hair. It's half way down my back now and I'll only lose it naturally to alopecia! Finding a good professional job has not been a problem. I think you'll find that the people (companies) who are most successful are the ones that are nicest to work for, and treat their staff with dignity and respect and as individuals.
Stick Men
I got a tatoo when I was 21 on my right bicep. If I wear a long or short sleave shirt (the type with a collar), it can't be seen. When my employers eventually saw it, they were not concerned. This is because wearing normal work attire, it is invisible.
I also got a tongue piercing, and it took a week for it to be noticed by my employers. They didn't seem to mind, and I was still allowed to meet clients because it wasn't obviously visible. I ended up taking it out (after a year) because I didn't want to chip my teeth.
I also dyed my hair black (from dark brown)... it wasn't a big change and my employers didn't mind.
If you do get something done, don't make a big deal about it. Get it done for personal reasons, not to impress your colleagues. Don't go to extremes, be subtle and decorate a location on your body that is hidden by business clothing, but not by recreational clothing (if possible).
PS: Don't EVER get a girl's name on a tatoo... If you want to impress her, get a heart tatoo and write her name across it every day with a permanent marker. You *will* thank me one day.
you should find some older person whose tattoos are
a couple decades old.
take a close look at that 20-year-old tattoo.
really. you want that?
it may look fresh and lovely when it's new --
but it's not always gonna be new.
Wait a minute. Didn't I say that on the other side of the record? I'd better check
I've got several large tattoos - 6 in total which are all covered by my normal clothing. I'm fairly certain that most of the company knows these exist after drunking nights out - but I've never really shown them at work, and nobody has every commented.
Piercings are pretty much the same. At the moment I have 12 piercings, and I see a colleague across the other side of the office with a lone eyebrow piercing.
I guess if I had a customer facing position things would be different - but hiding around in the office my Septum (middle of the nose; like a bull!) piercing doesn't give me anything to worry about.
(I'm annoyed I had to lose the tongue piercing I've had for the past 8 years recently for unrelated reasons. *grumbles*)
I think if you're good at your job and haven't got really uptight employers a ring or tattoo here or there isn't likely to cause any problems - it's only if you've got a load of "obvious" mods that folk might get the wrong idea and judge you upon appearence more than necessary.
I've got several tattoos, to the point where percent of body coverage is counted, not individual tattoos. I also have multiple ear piercings, a very large tounge stud, and hair down to my waist. I've never found it to hamper me in any way. In fact in most cases I'm the person whom gets to meet with clients. And it's never been a problem with them either. I can still look and act professional, how I look does not stop me in that. The only thing people find odd is the fact that my wife does not have tattoos or multiple piercings.
The only time I have ever seen problems associated with tattoos or piercings is when the wearer allows them to become an issue. The 'I look different, so treat me different' mentality that seems to pervade the body-mod community. Everyone makes a statement, from what tie, shoes or color of jacket they wear all the way to what direction they part there hair. People whom choose not to have body-mods do not ask for different treatment, so those of us whom choose to adorn ourselves should expect the same.
A long time ago, I had a chance to work with a former-salesman turned development-manager at IBM about the dress code in the company. To set the image in your mind, IBM had announced that it was relaxing the dress code a bit for employees who did not meet customers on a regular basis (i.e. the people he was managing), yet he was still wearing the white shirt, suit and tie.
He reason for sticking with the suit and tie made perfect sense to me (paraphrased version because it has been 14 years since I had this conversation):
I thought about it for a while, and I reached a simple conclusion based on the details of my life - I loathe ties, enough that I would be willing to sacrifice that 5% of my possible business. Someone else in the same sales role would have made the sale to that 5%, beating me out in performance, and/or making the difference between the company going broke, or the company staying afloat. Ergo, I needed to stay out of sales, and stick to the areas where I could effectively work without a tie.
Simple, right? Then, in 1993, I applied for a job with a small company that expected it's developers to dress in the suit and tie. They were so petty that they never even sent me a formal rejection letter when they decided not to hire me . . . my "sin" was that I have a beard.
The exact quote about the reason why I was not hired was, "People with a beard have something to hide."
In fact, that statement was true (I do not like looking at my double-chin in the mirror, and I have a scar from a high-school fistfight that the moustache hair covers enough that I can forget about that part of my life), but it was the reason why I was not hired at a company . . . in an economy that was better than it currently is.
A few months later, that company screwed over several of my friends, so I was actually glad that they did not hire me . . . or *I* would have been in the same boat.
The point (to the original author) is - do you get a visible tattoo, and cut yourself off from 5% of your possible employers? That limits you to only 95% of the possibles, but if they hired you with the tattoo, then you will probably "fit in" with the corporate culture. But you still end up eliminating that 5% of all potential employers, right off the top.
(Incidentally, I chose the 95% route. I've known people who worked for pressed white shirt, pressed suit and pressed tie lawyers, and they universally hated their jobs and their bosses - eliminating them from the potential pool of employers up front saved a lot of time, I believe.)
Chivalry is not dead, it's just frequently misspelt. - M. Langley
I've been working in the IT sector for about 10 years now. I'm pushing about 50% body coverage with tattoos (fully sleaved on both arms, lots of individuals spread out over the rest of my body). I wear earings. Up until a few years ago I had a few facial piercings too (removed because I was sick of them, not from any external pressure). I've had blue hair (right now I have no hair). I've never had a complaint. Why? I follow a few simple rules:
1. Look neat and professional at your interview with none of your tattoos showing. Always look/behave one level more formal than you think the interviewer expects.
2. Don't allow your tattoos/modifications to be visible at work until you are sure they appreciate your skills. Once you have proven that you have the skills, they don't really care how you look.
3. On the day you decide that you are going to allow your tattoos to be visible, make sure you go to your manager and ask them something along the lines of "Please let me know before we have clients coming in so that I can make myself presentable to them." They will appreciate the fact that you understand that some people may be put off by your 'non-professional' appearance and that you are willing to 'play the part' for the good of the company.
`fortune -o`
Speaking of tatts at least, as long as it is tasteful (ie, not plastered across your forehead) you probably won't have any issues.
... not just placement, but that the design itself is artful. I don't mean you have to custom design your own welsh zoomorph (which is what my band is ... it matches our wedding bands ... I hate wearing jewelry except at formal functions). But don't just walk in and point at the latest fad design or skulls or whatnot. A number of folks I've met have remarked that they normally dislike tattoos and were surprised that they liked it, but that being a good design made all the difference.
I have a full armband, but I got it below the elbow rather than on the bicep, which means most times it is visible at work. I've -never- had a person give me a hard time about it. Even my grandparents (who are much more anti-tattoo than any boss I've met), once they saw that it was well done and not obscene, said they didn't mind and sort of liked it.
That actually is often the key
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
Your boss isn't going to care about your Prince Albert, and if she notices it, you're halfway to a relationship or a great harassment lawsuit.