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Nat Demos Dashboard

pheared writes "Nat Friedman from Ximian gave a fairly in depth, quite hilarious (got embarrassing screensaver?), and somewhat impromptu, talk about his project "Dashboard" at OLS. From his blog: "The dashboard is a piece of software which performs a continous, automatic search of your personal information space to show you things in your life that are related to whatever you happen to be doing with your computer at the time." Neat stuff, but I don't think I will be warming up to Mono and C# any time soon."

27 of 274 comments (clear)

  1. Personal Information Space? by heironymouscoward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Are you taking the PIS? Uhm... "my PIS is full. I can't find my PIS."

    I think we need another term. Unfortunately my PIS seems to have crashed so I can't search for one.

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  2. Unnecessary commentary? by Osty · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From the submitter:

    Neat stuff, but I don't think I will be warming up to Mono and C# any time soon.

    Was this commentary really necessary? This software looks like neat stuff, just as pheared said, so why the barb? Could you at least give a reason for your statement? What, if anything, does it have to do with the article, save that the software in question was written using C# via Mono?

    Editors, I know you've explained why you won't edit user submissions before, and I know it's a losing battle to suggest you change, but this is a perfect candidate for editing. That remark had no business being left on the submission, and removing it would not detract from the story one bit. If there has ever been a perfect example of why editors should take their jobs seriously, this is it. Was pheared so unsure of the quality of his submission that he needed to try to stir up debate over Mono and C#, rather than let the story stand on its own? Or worse, were there really no other submissions for this story, or did the editors purposely choose this one submission because of the added barb at the end?

    1. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by CurlyG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...What, if anything, does it have to do with the article, save that the software in question was written using C# via Mono?

      Err, it's written in C# via Mono. The author of the article is interested in the app but has reservations about that technology.

      What is so inappropriate about stating that? If anything it provides a good starting point to the discussion here.

      Getting your knickers in a twist because slashdot isn't a traditional media source and doesn't try to ape that style *is* inappropriate, and somewhat silly.

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    2. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Agreed, especially true because the full Dashboard system is written in a range of languages - the plugins/backends tend to use whatever languages are best for integration with the software. It's certainly not a pure .NET app, not by any stretch.

    3. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ahahaha. Yes, just as SCO were concerned about their IPR three years ago, when Project Monteray collapsed on them. Just as Unisys made it clear right from the start that they wanted royalties for LZW in GIF. Yeah, I'm sure they would have done something by now. Thats right. Microsoft would never wait until a developer base had grown around C# among FOSS developers and then pull the rug out from under them and leave them with no choice but to switch to Microsoft .NET No, they'd never do exactly the same thing as they've done to countless others before, for example OS/2. No. Never.

      Pull my head out indeed.

    4. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by plasticmillion · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I don't have any problem with inflammatory comments, but I am curious to know what exactly motivated the author's statement besides sheer bloodymindedness vis-a-vis Microsoft.

      I currently have two machines sitting in front of me, one of which runs my "Microsoft" development environment (Visual Studio.NET, C++, C#) and the other my Java development environment (Eclipse). I use all three languages more or less on a daily basis, and I don't think I have any latent bias other than what actually works for me. From this perspective (pun intended) I would make the following observations:

      • Eclipse is totally awesome. No other Java IDE comes close (and I've used a bunch). Not only is it a pleasure to use, but it has had a major influence on my view of software architectures in general by virtue of its elegant plugin architecture.
      • C++ sucks. I've been a C++ programmer for 10 odd years, but after using Java and C# there's no turning back. I understand memory management, pointers and the like, but they are a major cramp on productivity and I'd rather do without them.
      • C# and .NET look very cool as a replacement for venerable C++. C# has all of the obvious advantages of Java, and equally important, the .NET libraries are finally a worthy equivalent to all the J2SE foundation class that should have been in C++ but aren't (and don't get me started about STL). Ever try to, say, check whether a directory exists in C++ and, if not, to create it? I spent at least 20 minutes surfing through MSDN and ended up with 10-15 lines of code. I'm very much still learning C#, but I wrote:

        if (!Directory.Exists(str)) Directory.CreateDirectory(str);

        ...and it worked first time.

      So what exactly is wrong with .NET? If you need to work on the Windows platform it's a godsend!

    5. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by Taurine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By writing Mono, and by writing unique and interesting software using it, these guys clearly have an agenda of creating interest and demand for C# on Linux. This is a big win for Microsoft, and pretty much of no help to Linux. Mono is always going to be on shaky ground legally, but it will let people begin their critical application development on Linux before deciding that for safety they need to move to Windows. If they wrote their application for Java instead, they would have less need to move off Linux, and should they wish to, a far greater choice of hardware and operating system environments to move to.

      Essentially Ximian are developing this software to grab some market share for something they hope will become big, without regard for the impact such a product could have upon the free software environment they will be sitting on top of. They are happily giving a leg-up to Microsoft while claiming to be purer than white due to the standards submission by Microsoft of a portion of the platform. Nothing prevents a full free software port of Java, and Sun would not risk an enormous loss of credibility by making substantial incompatible changes or moving against other Java providers. Standardising part of the C# environment is a marketting exercise, in practical terms it doesn't give your C# code a longer life than your Java code.

      So I'm happy to see the /. editors reminding everyone that this isn't just another piece of warm, fluffy, cute free software to configure && make && make install with open arms. Think before you endorse C#.

    6. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by miguel · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, I didnt.

      Miguel.

    7. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Insightful
      these guys clearly have an agenda of creating interest and demand for C# on Linux

      Uh, no. The guy pushing Mono is Miguel, Dashboard is written by Nat. Large parts of Ximian are not using Mono, or not sure about it. Nonetheless, Nat decided to use Mono because he wanted to try it out, and decided he liked what he saw.

      This is a big win for Microsoft, and pretty much of no help to Linux

      I fail to see how having a language that doesn't suck and is good for writing desktop apps in is "no help at all to Linux". We have to move beyond C and C++ sometime, you know.

      Mono is always going to be on shaky ground legally

      What, just like Linux itself? Need I remind you that Linux is a reimplementation of a once proprietary OS written in a once proprietary language?

      If they wrote their application for Java instead.....[snip]

      Yes, but they didn't. Java had its chance at being the choice of desktop apps, and failed it. I'm still not sure why Java is any better than C# - both languages/environments have had to have their compilers and class libraries cloned by the free software community, except that Java is not ratified by ISO.

      Essentially Ximian are developing this software to grab some market share for something they hope will become big

      Er, no. Why don't you read up on how it got started? It started as Nat trying something he thought would be cool, and then a load of people helping out. There are enough conspiracy theories as it is, no need to invent more.

      Think before you endorse C#.

      The people writing this stuff aren't stupid. I can tell you, they are thinking about C#, and have decided that most peoples fears are groundless. That doesn't mean it's risk free! Oh no. It does mean that they think it's no more risky than any other part of free software is (cloning a UNIX kernel? reverse engineering Windows? GPLd MP3 players?)

    8. Re:Unnecessary commentary? by alext · · Score: 3, Informative

      Friedman is a well-known Mono propagandist, as has been covered in /. before (based on this article).

      The rest of the comments above appear to follow the "let's play dumb" ploy that's been a distinctive feature of the Mono program from the outset. Three years after starting, there are still no concrete objectives listed on the project site. Can I really port my Dotnet application to Linux? Gee, that's a tough one - we'll get back to you...

      The Mono vs. Java comparisons in particular are almost desperate in their attempt to mislead. All these statements have been refuted numerous times before on /., but it's clear that we're not dealing with people that can respond intelligently to objections, instead we're in the "Mono groundhog day" zone. Here, proponents are obliged to constantly restate discredited arguments in the hope that there are at least some new readers out there who are naive enough to be drawn in to their cloner "community".

      FACT: Java has 3 million developers now, and is continuing to grow rapidly, both on the server side and now on the client side. (Millons of phones now support a JVM compared to... well, are there any Dotnet phones?)

      FACT: Most of Dotnet is patented and not standardized. Anyone still resorting to the assertion that Dotnet is open because the C Sharp language is standardized is either hopelessly out of touch or being deliberately deceptive.

      FACT: All of the Java platform is available on a free license for open-source developments, including the test suites. This is what the Kaffe people use. Nothing comparable exists for Dotnet whatsoever.

      FACT: Java development happens under the JCP, an open process with a number of big players involved, not just one company.

      The bottom line is that Java is, and has been for some time, a far better platform for Linux development than Mono. There are three very high quality commercial VMs freely available (from BEA, Sun and IBM) and dozens more for specialist platforms, plus of course an open-source implementation.

      For some of us, hearing the latest Mono annoucement about how it's bringing some great new feature to Linux just a cause for amusement, since typically that feature has been available with Java for years. (One example comes from Friedman again, who mentioned the exciting possibility of Javascript on Mono "soon". Needless to say, Rhino, Javascript on the JVM project, has been around for some time (5 years to be precise)..

      Others, apparently, are taken in by this nonsense and genuinely believe that they are adding features and helping open source by extending the reach of the Microsoft environment. It's time people woke up and realized that they are doing OS no favors, in fact, are likely to do it positive harm, to say nothing of the risk to their employers and associates.

  3. Making life easy for a hacker by indiancowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A hackers dreams come true? Get a log of everything you did today or in the past, all kinds of data passwords etc. all on a golden platter ?! What are the security features in this thing?

    1. Re:Making life easy for a hacker by JanneM · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The apps choose what to send cluepackets about. I doubt any app writer would be dumb enough to send out an entered password as a cluepacket, anymore than they would print it in clear text on the screen.

      It's a neat idea.

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      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  4. Re:Nice to see the sideswipe at .NET (not) by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Funny

    You're thinking of kuro5hin. This is slashdot. Slaaaaash, dohhhhht.

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  5. I'm warming up fast to .net by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In fact, the more knee jerk, unsubstantiated, unjustified snide throwaway comments I read about .net and C#, the more inclined I am to think that I'm seeing Ludditism writ large, and that .net is something that I should be taking a look at sooner rather than later if I want to stay employed in the tech business.

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  6. emacs: been there done that by 10am-bedtime · · Score: 4, Informative

    once again, lame technologies seek to imitate what the One True Editor has been able to do for years.

    next!

  7. haystack by hey · · Score: 4, Informative

    Reminds me of haystack which was dismissed as been-there-seen-that when it was discussed here. I think there might be a place for these things -- but where?

  8. Screenshots by Sibeling · · Score: 5, Informative

    Besides one screenshot in the link, which is going slow..

    Here's one using sniffed rss traffic

    and here's one with geo traffic.. (cool) There's a bit more info here

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    -- Sib
  9. Elsewhere in slashdot... by ultrabot · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... you can read a discussion about ADHD, general lack of concentration and inability to get a job done.

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  10. He is reimplementing the Remembrance Agent ! by BigJim.fr · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Remembrance Agent is an Emacs add-in that does mostly what Nat's tools seems to be supposed to do : "The Remembrance Agent (RA) is a program which augments human memory by displaying a list of documents which might be relevant to the user's current context. Unlike most information retrieval systems, the RA runs continuously without user intervention. Its unobtrusive interface allows a user to pursue or ignore the RA's suggestions as desired". Nice concept, but since the original is mostly tied to Emacs, a modern implementation would sure be quite welcome.

    1. Re:He is reimplementing the Remembrance Agent ! by avdi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not exactly. While RA is quite a nifty tool, all it does is index your home directory and run searches against what it finds their based on the current document in Emacs. RA doesn't have the ability to note that you're having an IM conversation with someone, and automatically show you: their email address and other FOAF contact information; their last few blog entries; when you last talked to them; their schedule; etc. That's the kind of thing Dashboard is intended to do. Dashboard integrates semantic information from many different applications, rather than just doing a smart grep against your home dir.

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  11. Re: (OT) Luddites by perly-king-69 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Luddites weren't against new technology, per se. The destruction of machinery was one of their sole means of making a stand against poor working conditions, since trade unions were illegal.
    The Tolpuddle martyrs were 'transported' to Australia because they swore an oath to someone other than the King of England, namely their union, which was illegal at the time.

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  12. I was at the demo... by Ron+Harwood · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...and yes, I think you will find it useful.

    Seriously, there will be a signal to noise ratio to begin with... but the concept of related information - it's like if someone did "pop up videos" information blurbs for all your computing needs...

    So until you can start adding extra memory units to your brain - something like this may prove itself very useful indeed.

  13. Re:Nice to see the sideswipe at .NET (not) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    As always, if you think something doesn't suck then prove it.


    Actually, whenever you think you have a point (wether something sucks or not - it works both way you know), you have to make it, not just state it. You merely gave your opinion on the .NET technology, you didn't make a point about it. Same for the story poster, and so you both deserve critisism for that.

    That said, you're right on the story editing. If the story is worth to be posted, so be it, but it's good question to ask wether this story, as it is stated, should have been accepted.
    Oh well, this is Slashdot after all.
  14. Re:Nice to see the sideswipe at .NET (not) by nepheles · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's maybe a little ironic that large portions of the OS community are generally against C# and Mono, as it is a Microsoft technology. Mono is an OS clone of a mainly proprietary technology.

    ...Almost like a certain Operating System

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  15. Re:why would you not support mono? by deadlinegrunt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "...shun all things .net - just because it has nothing to do with microsoft?"

    Basically this sums it up for quiet a few people. You see the simple truth is you can only be burned by something so many times before you learn. You obviously have not, but I am sure you will get there if this does not do it to you when everything is said and done. Agreements, standards, rationale, etc - none of these things mean anything when dealing with Microsoft. Look at how many companies have teamed up with MS and look what happens to them - by the way, it's not limited to companies; look at their customers too...

    The only thing demonstrated by MS is that they will do what ever it takes to hinder/reduce/eliminate competition which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but when it is done illegally they rob you of things you obviously haven't begun to understand yet.

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  16. Yeah, Like That's Proof by reallocate · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >> As always, if you think something doesn't suck then prove it.

    Says who? You?

    >> Everything I've seen of .NET has looked retarded...

    Oh, there's the proof.

    >> I don't like most things Microsoft...

    ..and, therefore, anything and everything associated with Microsoft is beneath contempt, by definition.

    Have you ever considered the possiblity that you might, sometimes, be wrong?

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  17. Ah, but that's exctly the point! by Lysol · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So what exactly is wrong with .NET? If you need to work on the Windows platform it's a godsend!

    Precisely. And that's where it will stay - on a Win platform. At least until Win is made much smaller (think Novell) and the platform becomes less important compared to the app and development technologies.

    Anyway, I have to say that I'm a huge Ximian fan. I think they've contributed a great desktop. So my hat's off to them.

    However, as someone who has done some hacking on dotGNU, I am pessimistic about the whole .NET thing.

    Besides domination, what is m$'s ultimate goal: lock in. This has been documented and has hit people over the head for years so I don't need to go into a lengthy discussion about it.
    Coupled with the fact that even from a clean room implementation standpoint, m$ will pull ip claims. No question about it. Especially when GNU/Linux starts making more and more inroads. I mean, if it's (.NET) supported on *nix, why go with costly m$?

    Like I said, I think Nat, Miguel and co. have done an excellent job. They're doing great things. But unless there is some strict, free, licensing agreement submitted along with the .NET ECMA stuff (to my knowledge, only C# has been submitted), then I just can't see how m$ will stay away from shutting Mono down.

    Also, while I think Mono is cool, I still have a problem supporting a language/platform that was created by a company such as m$ for the reasons they did. It still feels tainted and dirty to me. m$ has not become the largest software company in the world by being 'compatible'. There's a documented history that goes back well over a decade that proves this.

    Good luck guys! The dashboard looks reall cool, btw.