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Cyber Sleuths vs. Secret Networks

amnfinch writes "I saw this article on BBC news and frankly, I was blown away. Just another example of the relentless campaign to treat file swappers as criminals when their 'crime' is murky at best." Sir Haxalot provides an article on the flip-side: "CNN has a story on 'exclusive' Peer to Peer networks, that require 'knowing the right people and having a wealth of content on your hard disk to get into the clique.'"

16 of 640 comments (clear)

  1. Quoting a P2P "cyber sleuth": by James+A.+A.+Joyce · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From the BBC story:


    "Mark Ishikawa, a former hacker, is the CEO of BayTSP, arguably one of the most recognised and biggest companies working in the business of patrolling the web to unmask violators of copyrighted music.

    From his Silicon Valley base he told BBC News Online: "There is no lock that can't be picked and our technology ensures that there is not a rock in the world you can hide under if you are sharing files.""


    It's not about whether or not there's a lock to pick, nor how strong it is; it's about the fact that there's about 30 million locks which have to be picked at any one time.
    That's why clamping down on P2P is going to be so hard. It's not because of the difficult of catching people - after all, most of the make virtually no effort to cover their tracks even when using centralised services - but the fact that there are simply so many of them. It's like trying to delete every single byte of data on a hard disk - it's not very easy to do at all without completely destroying the disk itself.
  2. uhhh by nomadic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    when their 'crime' is murky at best.

    Actually, it's pretty clear. Distributing copyrighted material without the copyright holder's permission is illegal. Nothing murky about it. The sense that I seem to get from slashdot is people really, really want to share files, so they tell themselves there's nothing wrong with it.

    1. Re:uhhh by ryants · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Distributing copyrighted material without the copyright holder's permission is illegal.
      ... so they tell themselves there's nothing wrong with it.
      Legal and illegal != right and wrong.
      --

      Ryan T. Sammartino
      "Ancora imparo"

    2. Re:uhhh by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, but maybe he meant 'crime' as opposed to 'misdemeanor'. Swapping songs is wrong, but the punishment should fit the crime. Sharing a few songs does not warrant being served with multi-million dollar lawsuits, being treated worse than a drunk driver, or being bullied into handing over your live savings to the RIAA. It's the RIAA's tactics and the way file swappers are treated, that has people up in arms, not the fact that they're going after the swappers in itself.

      The RIAA is clearly trying a scare tactic, by making examples out of a few individuals. It's a bit like the old days, when they would cut off the hands of shoplifters (though not quite as bad). Respectable people like you and me may shrug about that, but just you wait until you are singled out for being made into an example... and you don't have to have committed any actual crime; if the RIAA dislikes what you do, you're a viable target. Look at that student with the search engine.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    3. Re:uhhh by homer_ca · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Music is more than property or possessions. It's culture. The studios take our culture, repackage it, lock it up and sell it back to us. It's not like all this 'intellectual property' was created from the void by some oracle at the studio. We had a public domain with things like folk music, Shakespeare, Greek theater, etc.

      To put your analogy in perspective: instruments + composition are to music what groceries + recipes are to cuisine.

  3. 'Crime'? by heir2chaos · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Look, I file swap, but it is still illegal to trade copyrighted material. Everyone that trades files knows this, it is just that they don't care. It's just like speeding, it's illegal, but it doesn't matter until you get caught.

  4. Enough with the editorializing by TrollBridge · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "...when their 'crime' is murky at best."

    I really wish article submitters would stick with the facts and stop injecting their opinions into the stories they are submitting. Statements such as that only makes one sound like a zealot (granted, though, there are plenty of people who agree with it).

    --
    There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
  5. This quote is very telling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    As well as making money, Mr Ishikawa's vision for BayTSP is to become a hi-tech version of Pinkerton, the legendary detective agency that protected presidents like Abraham Lincoln and hunted outlaws like Jesse James.
    The Pinkertons did a great job protecting Lincoln, except for the assassination part and their hunt for Jesse James was a success only in that it didn't result in a capture.
  6. Deterrence is Ineffective & Farcical by FreeUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The RIAA doesn't want to prosecute everyone who shares files, they want more people to stop sharing files. The idea is that if for everyone they do go after 10 (or whatever) other people will stop.

    The idea is wrong, both ethically and practically. Ethically it is absolutely heinous to make some people pay an exaggerated price in order to frighten others. Indeed it could be argued that it is unconstitutional (14th amendment) to go around destroying some lives in order to 'communicate' a point to others (some are getting very, very harsh treatment, while others are being left alone). Practically, deterrence has been shown not to work, as we see every day with speeding and the woefully ineffectual and counterproductive War on Drugs(tm, Reagan & Daddy Bush). Indeed, deterrence of such crimes is only marginally effective at best, and more often ineffective altogether, particularly with teens, whose notorious "it will never happen to me" attitude is more or less hardwired into their biology and often remains intact well into adulthood. The entire youthful 'immortality syndrome' conspires against any such efforts at deterrence at several levels, something the RIAA and other cartels seem to be unable to grasp (talk about not knowing your market, or your customers).

    A teenager sees a few thousand people get busted, out of several million, and (virtually every one) rightly concludes that they'll never be prosecuted. Indeed, any one filesharer is far more likely to be killed in a car accident than to be brought to trial by the cartels, and we've seen what a deterrence death by physical mutiliation resulting from a high speed automobile impact has on teen driving ... i.e. none whatsoever.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    1. Re:Deterrence is Ineffective & Farcical by saiya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Stealing music is shoplifting.
      Making unauthorized digital copies of music is copyright infringement. It is not theft, and it certainly is not piracy.

    2. Re:Deterrence is Ineffective & Farcical by drsmithy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Punishment for a crime is intended to deter others from committing that crime.

      No, it's intended to either gain reparations or isolate the offender from society.

      The whole principle of "deterrence via punishment" is broken (and immoral). If laws are just, the majority of people will follow them (and the people that don't, wouldn't anyway). Not to mention the vast historical record demonstrating that it doesn't work.

      Stealing music is the equivalent of shoplifting.

      Bollocks. They're not even remotely similar crimes (legally *or* morally).

      Deterrence has in fact been shown to work as a general principle of the justice system [...]

      It has ? Where ? History is replete with examples of people who broke unjust, immoral and unethical laws regardless of the punishment. So is modern society, for that matter (P2P being just one of many).

      Indeed, about the only way to make punishment a somewhat effective deterrent is to make the punishment so ridiculously out of scale with the crime that the consequences*probability equation is affected (and even then, it doesn't work for long - particularly in a modern democratic-style society - as there is significant social backlash).

      If you think people don't break the law because they're afraid of being punished and similarly, if you believe the principle of deterrence via punishment is the philosophy behind modern justice systems, then you have my deepest sympathies. I wouldn't want to live in your neighbourhood.

    3. Re:Deterrence is Ineffective & Farcical by Alsee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      [CDs] so damned expensive
      Who are you to decide.


      (A) The RIAA was found to have been illegally price fixing by the legal system. And it *is* their place to decide that.
      (B) It doesn't matter either way. It has absoltely nothing to do with whether or not copyright infringment is "theft".

      That is rubbish. Who are you to decide. That's like me breaking into your house

      That's rubbish. Breaking into a house is a crime - a completely unrelated crime. You may as well have compared copyright infringement to theft by saying it's like murdering someone and swiping their wallet.

      and stealing something with dust on it and claiming innocence because "you would never have used it anyway".

      Again you are relying on a non-existant case of taking someone's property. In copyright infringement nothing is taken. It has absolutely nothing in common with theft. You might as well try to argue that slander is theft.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  7. in response to the most common of comments. by Suppafly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Copyrights exist to provide an incentive to push works into the public domain, by providing a means for the publisher to make money off the published work. Sharing files with friends deprives him of that income. I don't see how sharing files with friends is 'clearly not immoral' (though one could argue that it isn't).


    One could argue that since copyright is effectively broken (ie: it doesn't push anything into the public domain due to the fact that its been constantly extended every few years for the last hundred years) that there is no obligation for the populus to obey copyright laws as they gain no benefit.

    Social contracts only work if both sides hold up their end of the bargain, and in this case, the RIAA and associated industries have failed to do so. Once they start releasing material into the public domain after a relatively short amount of time, I (and I imagine many others) will start rewarding them by paying for some of the material they have copyright on.

  8. Sony is one of the two studios... by Lyrrad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Quote from the BBC article:

    Two of the industry's top seven movie studios have engaged the sleuthing services of BayTSP, but because of contractual arrangements they can't be named.

    A snapshot of illegal movie downloads by BayTSP's chief technology officer Evelyn Espinosa was revealing.

    "This is just over a few hours and I have almost 14,000 records with a variety of different titles ranging from Daddy Day Care to Anger Management and Charlie's Angels."


    Well, since Daddy Day Care, Anger Management and Charlie's Angels are all Sony films, Sony must be one of their customers.

  9. Re:Bluffing? by Frailty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the RIAA is trying to plug a Titanic sized leak with dish towels. They are not going to be able to stem the flow of files across the web. Rattleing their sabers will not get them very far. I would conclude that we will see a percentage of people dump their connection to the big services, and erase all their swapped files. Then there will be those who sit tight, and weather the storm in rebellion, and then there will be those who find the way around the wall. With all due respect to those corporations who aid the RIAA in there failing crusade, I hope they are being paid well, because this crusade will eventually fail. Personally I don't participate in file sharing, but I can remember the days of buying a tape (ooops did I date myself?) and making copies for my friends. Just like trying to make CD's copy-proof, technological inginuity and rebeliousness will overcome. Technology is progress, and with progress comes winners and losers. Here the winners will eventually be consumers and artists, the losers will be the RIAA and it's allies. Stand clear when those big ones fall.

    --
    " My next house will have no kitchen - just vending machines and a large trash can. "
  10. Re:You may well be correct. by Xabraxas · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Yes. Because for every Britney or Justin there are a hundred Airs or Midnight Oils or Polyphonic Sprees. Kill the pop hits, and you kill the little-knowns.

    Not really. Lesser known bands make much more from concerts than record sales. The only point of having a record label is to they can distribute your record to different markets. Bands only make a very small percentage of what you pay for an average CD anyway. Lesser known bands survive by touring relentlessly and if music is what they love, I don't see a problem with them having to make their money that way. I'm not terribley concerned with the welfare of millionaire pop stars.

    --
    Time makes more converts than reason