Slashdot Mirror
Slow And Steady Leads To Windows Refund Success
linuxwrangler writes "By proceeding carefully, documenting everything, being persistent and keeping his cool, Steve Oualline was awarded a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. See his Linux Journal howto for the details. Hopefully this is the first of many victories."
I noticed that the title of the story is HOWTO: Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
Is this going to make it into the official HOWTO archive?
For those of you with ADD, let me sum the article up with the following chosen quote.
;)
"Me: I installed Linux.
Judge: Judgment for the plaintiff."
It isn't everyday you get to see those two statements so close together! Very interesting (and long) article that details a process that personally, I wouldn't want to go through.
I don't think the process is the point of the article, however.
Unique signatures are rare.
If I didn't pirate my software?
Oh well.
What percentage of people who intend to install Linux are going to jump through these hoops?
1%?
KARMA TAG! You're it.
What about a refund for Windows Me? I installed it but still couldnt use it. :)
It _IS_ meaningful though. I'm going to assume the copy the plantiff had was an OEM copy, so Microsoft didn't even make $200 off it-closer to $20 prob to begin with. By the time all of Microsoft's costs were added up, I'm sure it was at least $2000. In other words, if one out of every 100 people that have Windows forced upon them do this, Microsoft breaks even. If enough people do this, it will stop us from have Windows forced upon us by computer OEM's.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for on. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your refund (rare) or you'll realize the manufacturer is going to be totally unreasonable. So now is the time to pr
Oh come on - you don't do it directly to cost Microsoft money, but to encourage OEMs and Microsoft to let PCs be available for purchase without the Microsoft tax. It's a matter of principle surely - if you don't want Windows, why pay for it?
Anyone who does an analysis of monetary value (or cost) against time spent will not be reading Slashdot anyway...
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
One word: Laptops.
49 20 68 61 76 65 20 74 6F 6F 20 6D 75 63 68 20 66 72 65 65 20 74 69 6D 65 2E
This is a great document. My only minor quibble is i'm afraid at moments he tries to be "clever" and that could potentially make you look like a smartass in court. Which of these questions are *necessary* and which are just trying to be clever? The "WinXP is worth $10." "Okay, then will you sell me 10 copies for $200, please? I would like to make an order." sounds on first read like the author is just being a smartass, but this really is an important little interchange because later on in court you need to be able to say "i asked the company if they would sell me a copy of WinXP for $10 but they declined." However some other bits seem to just be annoyedly hacking at a customer service guy with a script:
:)
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?" "I just know it's the right amount." "So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
I don't think the "tell you what, let's split the difference" is necessary. Oh well.
Perhaps someone should make a repository of stories from people who tried to do this. Find out what worked, what didn't, who caved, who didn't, and what seemed unprofessional and pissed off the judge. I would love to see this become a widespreaed thing. I would participate in it myself, except I do not own an x86 computer
4000 linux geeks going "i want a windows refund" is easy to blow off. 4000 linux geeks dragging company representatives into small claims court equates to actual policy changes...
-- Super Ugly Ultraman
...when he gets refunds on those unused AOL cds
The thing that you do not want to do is be a nut case. Don't bash Microsoft...
I guess that eliminates all of us.
FLAC - Free Lossless Audio Codec
Read the article: he bought a LAPTOP. It is awfully hard to buy an x86 laptop without a Microsoft OS on it.
The author spends a lot of time talking about his inability to document the license and the provisions he didn't want to agree to. Perhaps he could save a lot of trouble by just photographing or videotaping the license. I'd reccommend both because its easier to get a hard copy for court of the still photo, and you might want the video to provide evidence you selected NO and then reformatted the drive and then installed an alternate OS.
Another choice might be to boot into Demolinux or Knoppix, then open the license file and print it. This combined with videotaping the process from opening the box to installation of Linux on the then formatted drive would be pretty convincing.
Per his description of small claims court the judge isn't going to want to watch the video anyway, but having it might convince the company to refund or settle out of court.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Two conclusions are possible: the judge in question already knew what Linux was. (Doubtful.) Or the judge was simply satisfied that the plantiff had installed something (i.e., not pirated the original software), and that he could name it easily (i.e., didn't pause to invent a name).
Why do you automatically assume that you are some elite clubmember who knows what linux is? Let me tell you a story, about something that happened in 1998.
I got stopped by a police officer outside of my apartment in the bay area. He immediately took a hostile attitude towards me, and accused me of being on drugs due to an genetic eye-condition that causes my eyes to not be able to contract. After dragging me out of my car, and trying to search me and being taken aback by my awareness of my prevention of search rights, he called for back up.
The second cop car got there to cool things down (the first cop and I did get physical, but I was defending myself.) and saw my t-shirt and immediately pulled the other cop aside. He walked over to me and said, "So, are you a programmer or do you just run Linux for fun?" We then had a discussion about Linux, my programming job, and the other cop got suspended for his actions.
This was in 1998. Don't assume people don't know what Linux is just because they aren't in an IT field, it just makes an ass out of you.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
(this is from painful, and recent, experience)
I've had the same types of experience with W2k and (very recently) XP. Had a D-Link WLAN setup, and the machine would just randomly stop recognizing the WLAN card.
OTH, the Suse on that same box had no problem. The WLAN was installed after both systems were installed; both XP and Suse recognized and set up the card instantly. But XP operation was quite dodgy.
So, I think it's more of a "YMMV" situation for both operating systems.
IMHO, both Linux and MS-Windows suck to about the same degree. The difference is this: in Linux, I see progress; in MS-Windows, I see a fast retreat in flexibility, configurability, and user control. With the stuff coming up in Longhorn (including (especially?) DRM), I don't see the future getting any better for MS products.
Plus, I have fun with my OS, and Linux is *fun.* MS-Windows hasn't been fun for years.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
If they set the price to $0.00, then you can buy the computer, return it the next day, and when they bitch and moan about how you didn't return the XP CD, that you'll give them back the same amount they charged you for it - $0.00.
When there's a MS License involved, there's never a simple answer.
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
Yes, a similar thing happened to me. I was serving tables in a restaurant and I started chatting with a customer about how waiting tables was a summer job while I got my Computer Science degree. And so he says, "Oh, you're a programmer, huh? Maybe you could help me with computer. Do you know anything about Windows?"
And I said, "Sort of, but I know a lot more about UNIX."
"Weird," he says, and then he leans in and says, "cause I always wonder, how do they take a leak when their weiners are chopped off?"
I was in a daze. Not everybody knows about UNIX/Linux as we do.
___________________________________
I crochet because I'm lonely; I'm lonely because I crochet.
It's a safe bet that the averge small claims court judge doesn't know what Linux is.
Uh, what? You just said, "Don't assume that's why I came to the conclusion I did." Then follow it up with a stereotype about people you know who work in law offices. Are you trying to say that there are more geeks as police officers than judges? Are you trying to say that they don't read the news?
CNN has ran 779 stories on Linux. It is not some elite club, and most people know that Linux is an operating system. They may not know the details, but most people know that it's an operating system at least.
You are assuming, based on stereotypes, that judges will not know what Linux is. No matter what you try to label it as, that is what you are doing.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Then how do you explain vibrators ?
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".