Slashdot Mirror
Predicting H.S. Dropouts With Pervasive Databases
rhadamanthus writes "As seen on the Houston Chronicle: 'With a new computer database available at every campus this fall, teachers can keep a virtual eye on every student and identify those at risk of leaving. For the first time, educators can look up a student's attendance, discipline, immigration status, grades, and test scores at one source and use that information to predict dropouts. ... "All students will know someone is watching them, tracking them, and is interested in their success," school board member Laurie Bricker said at a press conference today.' Hooray for surveillance in the HISD."
Somebody sure is watching and tracking individual students, but they're definitely not interested in the student's success -- collecting all this data together and using it to generate mass "trends" will likely end up in having various kids who are doing well being sat down and had a talking-to by the school's guidance counsellors about not dropping out, merely because they don't fit the trend. Same thing happened with kids who may fit the "school shooter" profile.
There's no excuse for this data collection -- but hey, schools and prisons are the two places where new privacy invasion is tried out before being installed in mainstream society.
Basically this looks like they're beefing up their data controls, and centralizing existing data - as opposed to invasively gathering more data and infringing on privacy. What exactly is the problem, then???
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
I can understand the fact that schools do need to track such information, but my question is do they erase the data afterwards? I really don't want those records floating around after A. I graduate, or B. I do drop out.... granted I've allready graduated, but this is for the people who will be going into this system.
I am full of goo... black evil goo
Remember, children, "Big Brother loves you."
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Come on guys. It doesn't take a giant computer and wonderous code to tell which kids are likely to drop out of school. Anyone that cares to notice could say. If teachers and parents don't care enough now to notice, a big blinking computer light isn't going to help any.
I can see the dialogue going like this:
Teacher: Our extensive data indictates you may be thinking of dropping out--
Student: FUCK YOU, BIG BROTHER! I'M OUTTA HERE!
Wow, a lucrative publishing contract! I don't have to be evil anymore. --Meteor
They didn't mention race as one of the features in the equation, even though there is (unfortunately) by no means an equal drop-out rate among the various races represented in US schools. Is this to sanitize the article, or is race really ignored in the database (surely making its predictions less accurate than what would be possible)?
I don't think "knowing someone cares about their grades" is going to be a big factor in affecting whether students drop out or not.
From the people that I've met in this situation, they either don't understand the benefits of a quality education, or they just don't care about how important it is. There are still others that both know and care, but may have a lot of other problems in life to deal with.
The first two groups can only be helped by convincing them how an education can help them later on in life. But the latter group is the one that this system might help if a person can be identified and they can get help with whatever other problems might be holding them back in school.
The only problem I have is, why the hell does it track immigration status? What does that have to do with the quality of their education; apart from language barriers, but even that has nothing to do with immigration status.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
I can speak to this a little bit, as I actually used to teach high school...
You see, schools make money based on the number of students that attend every class period. If a student drops out, that's less money the school is getting. The school at which I taught went nuts looking for dropouts. School-wide PA announcements were made regularly asking if anyone had heard from various students, or even seen them around town. They don't care if the kid is in class getting educated... it's all about the money.
Also, if too many students dropout, your school gets flagged as low performing and you lose money that way, too. Any tactic the school can use that is inexpensive and provides an easy, scattershot approach to keeping as many kids in classrooms as possible will be used.
The great thing to administrators is that they can keep the kids in class, get all the money, and they still don't have to spend it on teachers. School administration generally uses budget surplus to control departments and hammer teachers into submission or force them into retirement.
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
Sounds like they're not collecting any information they haven't always had -- just putting it together into a predictive model. And unlike some of the poorly-thought-out "school shooter" type of models, this is (a) predicting an event with a high enough prior probability that it might work decently (from a Bayesian perspective), and (b) targeting kids for extra help instead of punishment. At least if they end up implementing it the way they say they will.
I get SICK and TIRED of being treated like a prison inmate.. Ask permission to take a piss, no snacks, no laptops, state mandated cirriclum, low standards for teachers (who can't teach), crap textbooks, and so on.
I seriously would drop out if I could. I am getting ZERO out of this education. I would rather teach myself the stuff I need to know, take the SAT's and get into college. High School is great for people in the lower-classes who don't have any other oppritunity for sucess otherwise, but people who are self-motivated are being punished by being put through this horrible system.
Lets start by giving motivated students the oppritunity to do independent study on their own, or take classes at the local commuinity college instead of high school.
Ya know, it's funny. We here on slashdot are always talking about privacy at home and at work, but when it happens to a group of people that we consider to be in a lower status (eg in high school instead of college), we are all for the big brother concept.
I'm going to give an example, but let me put it in perspective first. In school, you don't get paid. It's not your job. It's your daily life. You meet new people and make friends there. For the sake of being evenly sided I won't go into saying that you're forced by society to go there. This compares nicely to an adult's social life and what places they frequent, so let's go from there.
This would be the same thing as the owner of the (insert hangout place here, club, diner, bar, etc) having a declared record of everything you do thewre, when you do and don't go, where you're from, what you like to do with your time, and assorted other things. Said owner then uses said information as demographics to, instead of changing the service to suit whatever new styles might be going in and out, predict when you are going to leave and give you a small reason to stay. Nothing so great that you want to stay, just barely enough so you don't check out the competition.
But wait a minute, isn't that like invasion of privacy and all those mega corporations tracking your every move to attack you with the ads they want you to see, when they want you to see them? It is. And if you rationalize the use of this system on others, it's only a stone's throw away from coming back to bite you in the ass.
Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
Just my $0.02
Many here have already stated this system doesn't collect anything new, just centralize existing data.
But what if analysis are done on a scoring basis? Then will this system eventually be used by colleges to consider a student's qualification for admission? It says it is used to predict drop-outs, but I'm sure it will have the capability to determine any student's performance as well.
What does immigration status have to do with dropping out? Good question. Why not study it to find out?
If you find out that 90% of a certain status are dropping out, you know where to fucus your attention. But, until you KNOW _if_ there's a correlation, there's no reason not to include the data.
As far as what business of the school's it is, that's a good flamebait subject, but more to the point...if it affects the school's ability to accomplish its task (education), then it certainly IS their business. And again, you can't say until you study it...
Chaos, panic, disorder...my work here is done.
It takes more than a database and an expert system with forecasting to create the 1984 situation. If that were so, we have been living in 1984 for years (Insurance Companies).
It takes centralization of power to create a 1984 situation. Things like:
* Taking away freedom of speech
* Ignorance of the population
* Repressing human rights
will create 1984.
This database can contribute to oppression if it is in the hands of a very select few for the sole purpose of "criminal profiling".
If the database is used to make a more customized learning plan, including emotional counseling for hardships, this database can actually create a more intelligent population, improve the standard of living, and provide greater opportunities for the "at risk" individuals.
Finally, the database can help the education system learn from its mistakes and successes. This will create a robust educational system that is tailored for the individual student rather than stamping out more "bricks in the wall".
The database should be open to all interested parties, including the parents and students.
Also, add a few anti-discrimination laws and then it will be very difficult to oppress somebody by profiling.
If this is anything like how other school systems have developed this (and no, contrary to what the article says, this is NOT a one-of-a-kind system), it's not going to 'raise red flags' and automatically un-enroll you from classes, it will simply let teachers know that there is a trend with a student - and probably only then if the teacher actually puts the effort into looking at the data.
I would like to think that 95%+ of teachers are not the type to just blindly shuffle off a student because their test scores are low.
Sorry guys, but this is not Big Brother, it's not going to be a case where the computer runs the school, it's not going to be automatically doing anything to the students. It's a tool. Just like your hammer doesn't jump up and hit you in the head all on its own.
Denver Isuzu Suzuki
Yesterday I was appliying for something over the internet through a bank. I gave all my personal information - all ID#'s and bank card #'s I had and as soon as I was done step 2 they (the script on the page) downloaded my personal banking history and TESTED me on it - which account I had what trafi on at which perticular moth in a form of a multiple-choice. They have more information about me than I do... and as upsetting as that is, well - I already knew that.
... my art teacher said I did excellent...) but it's the idea I'm trying to get across
The problem is that this data that the schools are collecting may or may not leave the school board. (I assume it's the school board at the least doing this not each school by themselves, and if not the school board - maybe the govt. thet's even better)
At any rate, I don't think that the teachers, principals or guidance councilors will use this info to benefit (themselves) financialy. As with any data mining (think of your computer being mined) there's always reason's being given about why it's good and why it's constitutional and beneficial etc.. But let's face it 99% of the population (no I don't have anything to back that up) don't like the idea of data baing collected on what websites they visit, what brand of milk they buy, how much they pay for rent, what greades they had 20 years ago in H.S. and so on.
As I see it the problem is worse when people do look at H.S. stats and make biased - yes BIASED decisions about people whether this is hiring a student for a summer job or 8 years later when choosing a profession. Or how about a teacher enforces a seating arangement where the "DUMB" kids sit at the back because they're not willing to learn anything. None of you had a teacher that was bised about his sudents when going to H.S. I know I did.
Anyways - I've got plenty of examples (I can even draw you a picture
If you dont act a certain way schools and teachers go out of their way to label you.
Theres a whole array of labels, the most popular? ADD, then theres Bipolar, then theres Manic Depression, they basically have a label for anyone who doesnt act in the "normal" way.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
ask and ye shall receive :-D
I do not have a high school diploma (not even a GED).
I do have an AA from a junior college, a BS from a well-respected major university, a real job, and am starting in a program to get my MS (at the same place as my BS).
Get your parents to support you on it and leave high school. Enroll in a junior college (you'll need your parents to sign some stuff), get an associates degree (or at least look at and take what four-year schools expect you to have from the JC--most JCs will have some relationship with the nearby big schools and will have lots of guidance info about this), do reasonably well, and then transfer to a four-year school for the rest of your undergraduate college education.
If you're really ready to motivate yourself, skip jail (err, high school) and get a real education.
Then when the REALLY invasive stuff happens as they reach adulthood ( and when true rights and freedoms kick in ) they will be used to it and accepting of the practice. Give it 2 generations and it will just be 'normal' to be watched 24/7. Why not RFID tag them while we are at it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Actually, we do offer a service that is targetted at small to medium size companies looking to implement a prescreening and job success preditction system.
;-)
QuickSelex is much cheaper than a custom system. If THAT is what you're looking for
it is meant to socialise the working class. I concur with the learned Enomar, the reason there is structure and deadlines and scutwork and all that is because that is the way 85% of the world's jobs are.
For the very bright kids, school matters little: they will always be entreprenurial
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.
"I think I need to spell out things a bit for you. The job of the High School is to prepare students to go out into the world and take a job, or continue on to college. "
." Most managers want to see their employees in their offices on time.
No thats a parents job. The role of history is to teach a child how to educate themselves so that they will be able to learn in college.
Let's leave aside the argument about how academically prepared students exiting high school really are and look at your other arguments. In the job world, attendance, manners, dress and perceived attention span are very important.
Depends on the job, lets not assume all students will be factory workers, some people will be CEOs, Musicians, Artists, Programmers, Scientists, Firemen, Politicians. Not all of these jobs care about what time you arrive, how you look, or how good your manners are. Also its not a schools job to teach professional skills, thats a parents job.
This is why our kids cant read, we are so busy trying to teach them to be obedient and well mannered that yeah they know how to "act" right on the job but they dont have any ideas, they dont have a mind.
We all hear about how "cool company X" lets their employees wear whatever they want to, show up anytime, and ride skateboards through the hallways. However, we all know that this isn't the "norm."
Not everyone wants a corperate job for a company, doing office work as a clerk or manager. Thats what you do with your life, I'm not going to join the corperate world, there are plenty of jobs for non profit, government, social work, etc. There is no rule which says you must work in an office.
Argh please stop assuming everyone is going to be an office clerk.
. The want to see employees paying attention in meetings. They get nervous when these characteristics aren't displayed, and employees who can't achieve these standards are frequently fired.
Thats why theres creative departments for people who arent clerk material. Who do you think comes up with all the good ideas, the marketing, the programming, the research? Its not the office clerk who runs and fetches that coffee, thats what you do, some people actually have creative jobs which are deadline based, and task based.
Maybe it doesn't matter too much in economically good times, but during downturns, when jobs are scarce, this kind of behavior is important. High schools would be doing an incredibly bad job if they didn't enforce behavior that will ultimately make their students more likely to get a job.
Right so highschools should train everyone to be a n office clerk because you are one? Argh this is as sicking as when colleges would try to force everyone to get a degree in business or management. Forget about the artists, the people who design the commercials which Microsoft and other companies use, and forget about Lawyers, Politicians, Non Profit Orgs, or starting your own business, we dont want people growing up in poor neighborhoods to have jobs like these do we?
You also mentioned homework. While I agree that some homework assignments are absolutely idiotic, the vast majority of it is for practice.
Thats assuming everyone is an idiot. See they give homework because they assume you need to practice 20,000 times before you get something, some people however are smart enough to get it after doing it a few times in class, doing it 20,000 times only pisses them off.
Most students perform much better in all subjects when they do their homework. Countless times, I've heard teenagers complain about how bad their math was. When I asked whether they did their homework, they pretty much always answered "no" or "sometimes." Homework also gets students used to working independently -- a valuable skill for on the job.
Well I admit I'm not good at math, but it certainly has nothing to do with homework, I was given math homework where I did t
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Where is the database I can monitor to provide me with accurate, timely information to predict which schools are failing?
My idea was to keep a virtual eye on every school administrator and identify those at risk of reducing the quality of education at the school. I'd like to be able to look up the measurements of that person's effectiveness from one source and at a glance: test scores, attendence, discipline, and so on for all students that he or she is responsible for.
My idea was not to punish low performing administrators, but identify high-risk ones so that early intervention can be used.
The urban legend lives? Do we really need to pidgeonhole unlikeable kids as stupid kids?
Theres more genious out there than you think. I have friends that are very smart, but the school system didn't work for them.
School needs to change, but not like this.
God spoke to me
It really irks me how so much attention is being put on people for whom education is a waste of taxpayer's money.
The reason for this attention is the simple statistic that says high school graduates are better off than people who dropped out. The belief is that by keeping would-be dropouts in school their lives can also be improved. Unfortunately things just don't work that way. The reason why high-school graduates are better off has everything to do with their character and intelligence and virtually NOTHING to do with whether they have a high school diploma or not. These educators, in no small part because of their own need to feel important, have got the cause and effect reversed.
Spending time and energy trying to keep these people in school does nothing but worsen the educational environment for students who might actually stand to benefit from an education. The money would be better spent providing more challenging or comprehensive classes for gifted students since they are the ones who benefit the most from an education. Society itself has more to gain by investing in our best and brightest than it does from trying to rescue losers from their own self-destruction.
If only foolishness and stupidity were fatal, imagine how much better our gene pool would be.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Well I admit I'm not good at math, but it certainly has nothing to do with homework, I was given math homework where I did the same stupid algebra problem over and over again for about 5 pages, for maybe weeks or a month, guess what, now I'm an adult and I dont remember any of that shit because it was all a bunch of useless paperwork to me.
Hold it. First you're railing against keeping track of attendance because it shouldn't matter if you show up or not, just so long as you can do the work. Now you're going on about how meaningless homework was for you, that it was "a bunch of meaningless paperwork."
You can't have it both ways. Obviously in your case the self-directed notion of learning where you just do the work and turn it in, having taught yourself the concepts, was not working at all. And yet in the same discussion you rail against teachers for daring to hold you responsible for attending class, when obviously in your case there was a need for this encouragement.
I recognise that a lot of the points you bring up are faults in the education system, but it's concentrated naivete to believe that you can adapt a large institution to the whims and desires of every single student. The "bend over backwards for Bobby" plan sounds great on paper, but until you can manage some significant changes in the way the educational system is funded and managed, it's just never going to happen. I'm sure that many teachers and educators would love to be flexible enough to adapt to the needs of every last student, but the fact is that is nearly impossible, logistically. And frankly, most students' issues with their education stem from authority issues not pedagogy. No matter how compassionate you are, at the end of the day a lot of young adolescents just can't deal with authority in any shape or form, and they react to that in all sorts of self-destructive ways. Am I saying that some school institutions aren't WAY over the line? No. But fundamentally the whole notion of education has to fundamentally involve authority and subordination, even if its edges are smoothed over. My point is that kids of this age are always going to hate their schools, and while there is always room for improvement you will never be able to create an atmosphere of complete satisfaction and fulfillment.