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Castronova's Notes on Hacker Court
scubacuda writes "Cal State Fullerton's Edward Castronova (who recently wrote an excellent analysis of gender inequality between male and female Everquest avatars) has just updated his notes on 'Hacker Court', a mock trial held at Vegas' Black Hat Conference on whether virtual items destroyed during the hack of an online video game constituted real loss. 'No verdict was reached, but the jury and audience agreed that the damages were real,' says Castronova."
A mock jury decided a mock decision.
How about we mock the geeks that are still crying over this?
Sig & Below
Yuck Fou
I read that as Casanova's Notes and I thought /. was finally going to tell me how to be a babe magnet.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I'm not an Everquest player, so I may be talking out my rear here, but the logic seems fairly simple.
Somebody with bad intentions hacks into the server and destroys your virtual items. Later, the hack is revealed. The sysadmin either goes to the backup or resets a few counters. Virtual items are returned to you. Problem is solved.
The only tangible loss I can see is the Sysadmin's time and effort.
Just award them some virtual money.
The difference between a verdict and the jury simply all agreeing is wether or not what they agree upon is the matter being tried.
They could all agree that the moon is made of green cheese, but if the trail is regarding what caused the cow to jump over the moon, it is not a verdict.
Did they arrive at a value for the loss of pride associated with going to an Everquest convention?
I have a dream that one day everyone will use the terms hacker and cracker correctly. Well, I guess that one's not going to happen today.
http://mediagoblin.org/
So Im looking at a couple of thousand life sentences for playing Counterstrike?
Haha, I hope I'm not (though I am certain that I am...) the only one that, at first glance, interpreted the headline as Fidel illegally obtaining some cheap Viagra on the 'net or some equally funny sexually-enabling object.
In all seriousness though, I have to admit that I have serious doubts regarding any impact that this story could possbily have...The 'mock trial' has no real-world implications, and even if it did, well...inconclusive.
So, why? this is the part where you rip into me for missing an 'obvious' point.
Damages were real, but to pass verdict would have been to decide which side is guilty and say so. To say "the damages are real BUT" that 'but' is what invalidated the verdict. Sort of like saying that the "dissenting" opinion was 50%, which pretty much invalidates a majority vote. The article was quite short though and didn't elaborate much in my opinion.
:)
Courts can often throw a case out without deciding in anyone's favor (thus it seems as if one person wins by being acquited, BUT depending on wording, having the case thrown out can be grounds for denying it an appeals hearing.)
On the other side having the case thrown out with teh words "but there was damage done that is real" can be seen not as a verdict but as admitting that IF something comes up later, this can be used as evidence that the court DID see it as damage but refrained from passing a verdict. (i.e. party a is guilty and will pay or party a is not guilty and has not to pay even though).
In my experience if a case is passed on like that it can be because a decisive verdict cannot be reached. I've never seen one go that way, but I'm sure the possibility is there in a very controversial case. (this would probably NOT be it
-Khye
While I understand the issue, if I spent hours of time leveling up, gsearch for secret items and rare bonuses I'd be pissed too, if someone hacked it and all my hard work was for nothing. But what about the devlopers who design the game constantly changing it, giving some really kewl items, then for no reason they nerf it out of existance, so it becomes worthless. I feel the next big jump in mmorpg's will be when the users have more control over what happens in the realm of the game, then things will become "interesting" to say the least.
Somebody with bad intentions hacks into the server and destroys your virtual items. Later, the hack is revealed. The sysadmin either goes to the backup or resets a few counters. Virtual items are returned to you.
I suspect that's the crux of the problem--whether or not the sysadmin would actually return the items/counters or just say "tough luck". As an off-and-on FFXI player, I've had to deal with Square taking the latter position (albeit on bugs rather than cracks) far too often. If it took you X number of days to acquire an item or the like, and through no fault of your own that item suddenly disappeared, then yes, the real time you spent acquiring that item is a real loss.
You can also look at the losses in this case as being a loss of real time and effort on the part of the people who created/obtained the virtual items. Sure it's a mock court, but the philosophical principles upheld are real in many ways.
I just want to take a moment to talk to all the retards.
So, you spend your real money in order to get pretend money in your online games.
Then, for the privilege of spending that pretend money - in a pretend world, on pretend things - you pay more real money, every month.
What a bunch of fucking brain surgeons.
(Credit goes to Penny Arcade. Seems apropros here. Seriously guys, get a life. It's disturbing.)
So, a bunch of people who play EQ-type games get together and decide that getting their EQ-type characters messed up is "real damage."
What does the other 99% of the population think?
This is by far the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life.
In the objective sense, everything happens as-it-is. If something disappears or gets created, it's just an event happening in a world, in this instance the artificial cyberworld of Everquest. In fact, if Verant wishes to, they can easily implement a system of degrading items or having NPC thieves pickpocket you. It's their game, their chose. They even claim no warranty for preserving anything you "gain" in the game in their license you agree to every login. They also have a history of banning people who auction out virtual stuff. It's not real. You pay for the experience of these events, wether you judge them good or bad, not any objects in their world.
It's your choice to play the game, and also how you're gonna handle a setback. Obviously, you have a goal of earning as much level, eq, money, power, respect, whatever, as you can. This goal is also subjective, and varies a from player to player. I won't go into details here about that, that could last for days..
One lesson, as in real life, is that things come and go. There's no real value to material stuff, because in the end THEY WILL ALL GO, including our own body. When you realize this, you can see everything as events with hidden lessons in them and let go of it. This doesn't mean you should never complain to get your character fixed or do anything dogmatic. Nobody can tell you what you MUST do, and rob you of your choice!
It means that in the end, you know you're perfectly safe because you're going to lose Everything anyways.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
I admit that I play some online games that I end up having to pay for. I play PSO with a few friends and my brother from time to time. I played AC2 for awhile, I am playing in the FFXI beta right now.
But I could never see the justification in buying items with real money. I mean its a freakin game, as soon as it becomes so important to me that I'll spend $100 for an imaginary sword I hope that somebody is kind enough to snuff me out. The "items" one finds in a game are, at most, numbers. I can no more own a magic broad sword +2 vs Nose goblins as i can own the number 7.
People cheating/hacking can disrupt my enjoyment of a game, but its a game. Im not going to press charges against them, im not going to go over to their house and tell their mom. If the host of said game can't keep the miscreants under control than I will quit and find some better use for my money, simple as that.
People are just way too attached to their own self worth. It wouldn't be hard to throw in some arguments about artifical spirituality and psuedo-relegious behaviors associated with online gaming but I am out of scotch
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
Require payment of damages - in the game's own virtual currency, "gold pieces" or whatever.
Ok, so let me get this straight. You played a game in which someone cheated. And now someone has to pay you for it? No, you go play a different game. This is covered in kindergarten here in the U.S.; I'm not sure how this particular life lesson is passed on in other countries.
Look, everyone wants to get pissy when someone "wastes time". I spent X hours playing this, and you cheated me out of points/wins/lives/etc. Well, then you just go to the next game. Or you complain to the folks running the game and they sympathize and set you up with the stuff you say you lost. Or they don't because you'd be "wasting their time." And then you go play someone else's game and let them rot with their insecure gaming software. Vote with your participation and watch gaming software quality improve.
But to try to track down and sue someone because they cost you time playing games is severely unrealistic.
It occurs to me that people who see real damages in that situation need to tear themselves away from the computer and join the real world now and then.
As for me.... I'm going to go sue the crap out of that guy that tripped me during the weekend warrior basketball game. Who knew there was money in getting cheated?
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
I only skimmed the middle of your post before replying, so I didn't notice that you also make the comparison to real life. My point was that the hermit life (that's probably a bad way to put it, but nothing else comes to mind at the moment) isn't for all of us; whether good or bad, those of us who do invest time or money in material things, services, whatever, get upset if that investment is put to waste (again, not the best choice of words). That may not be ideal, yes, but it's the way people are, and it would do you well to recognize that even if you don't agree with it.
First, I imagine the game updates too quickly for them to make backups, so they can't restore your items because they're not going to take your word on it.
Second, if the items and experience are worth real money in the real world, then it is loss (not how EQ money is worth more than the Yen against the dollar).
This is still debatable because it is "just" a game, but the losses are real.
A possible comparison would be if a banks records are hacked and destroyed, do you lose your money? I'm sure they have backups all over the place, but it's a similar concept.
(I'm not an EQ player, either)
Can't argue with economics.
Good point. I wasted 2 hours watching a crappy film at the cinema and was cheated out of enjoyment. For some reason I don't expect my money back. Maybe my kindergarten worked after all.
unanimously
by an undoubtely [poorly] HUNG jury.
Don't you buy Virtual money everytime you use a bank? Wouldn't you be a little pissed if someone deleted your bank account and said it wasn't real anyways? Obviously this is different, but only because it's not worth as much as 'real money'
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
... Stanford Law [tubgirl.com] (Weasel). [goatse.cx]
In other words, virtual worlds are just like our world, so, there's nothing particularly interesting about them. Unless they feature nubile anime dickgirls- then they'd be of interest to one Rob "cmdr taco" Malda.
etc
You ever appeal a case? Every word you and others say counts (for example if you plead guilty to any accident you are automatically guaranteed that if you are SUED over anyone else's health bills you will lose. You admitted guilt and did not attempt to clear your name. This (though you may not know it) automatically implies that you also accept any fault or blame and all it brings with it (lawsuits over health bills, property damage, etc, and believe me this is the united states, people sue for being stupid enough to spill fresh coffee on themselves and get 3.4 million... health and property damages can be quite nastier).
If your case is settled you still have to worry, but oddly enough if you are FOUND guilty but fight it, you're guaranteed that most lawsuits can actually be avoided or defeated assuming you provided convincing evidence and the jury was somewhat split.
If you don't believe me spend sometime in court and see how it comes out.
EXAMPLE: "While unintentional, Mr./Ms. (your name here)'s actions did cause damage however. Mr./Ms.(your name) did not intend to harm my client, but you were not prepared to respond to the situation. Therefore you were found not guilty of reckless endangerment, but were shown instead incompetent to operate the [insert piece of equipment or vehicle that caused accident and harm]. This lack of preparation / incompetence of Mr./Ms. (your name here) has rendered my client [insert name] with [insert overstated injuries and inflated health bills].")
Not that every lawyer would go to such an extent but don't be surprised to find someone likely to do something like that just to net some cash.[ahem.. Lowell "the hammer" Stanley] If you don't believe it, get sued sometime and see how fast you'll end up getting indebted to some schmuck if you don't cover your ass with every word you say (hence why paying a lawyer to help you is a smart thing to do when the risk is higher (workplace accidents, etc)). Oh and if you HIRE a lawyer, let them TALK, and carefully craft every scenario with them or at least go over them. Whether you sue or are sued, or served with an arrest warrant.
FINALE: if the original case's jury fails to convict the man or make him pay because they are split down the middle, they can sue him again on the basis that the original court was biased against videogame harm and time invested. OR the criminal justice section of the courts can take him in over the hack itself as a criminal or terrorist act with intent to humiliate and "defame" Mr. Morton or whatever they called the fictional plaintiff.
In a twist of fate the "Getta" company (if you read the articles) can sue the man for downtime and use the original case's findings and conclusion. (security breach, violation of license terms, etc)
-Khye
PS - I've typed TOO damn much and I'm tired... goodbye. Plus I've had enough of courts. Take it easy man... and if you ever get sued or arrested even for a parking ticket, never admit guilt. Go to a lawyer and see how you can get away without being screwed for years to come by saying the wrong thing.
PPS - and for the love of god, dress to impress, don't believe the justice being blind bullshit, judges often decide who's telling the truth or who deserves justice by who "respects" the courtroom more (hence who dresses better and who doesn't step out of line in the argument making). And since its their courtroom and they are justices what they say is final. Don't piss them off and TRY to make them like you since they ultimately decide your fate.
You and some colleagues are working on a document. The largest part of this document is stored on your company's file server. Someone with malicious intent cracks the server and the last weeks work (assuming regular backups here!) is lost.
I think we all agree that this is a real loss. The loss can be quantified in the $time spent by you and your colleages x $wage working on the document plus any loss intrinsic to the data. If the data is stolen rarther than destroyed then damages associated with rival company having internal data etc need factoring in.
But at the end of the day, you do whatever you can (restore from backup, restart work from what you have, possibly seek redress for stolen data, secure systems better in future).
So if the analogy is valid (you and friends have spent hours working on a game), you accept a loss, do whatever you can and then get on with it.
A second way to look at the legal situation here is to use an anthropological viewpoint. What are the native laws in the society (in this case the online one), it may be quite acceptable to steal (thief as an occupation comes to mind, danm those succubi).
It is nearly always wrong to attempt to apply 'our' laws to another society - look historically at all the attempts to enforce new laws and ways of life on indigenous populations.
I guess in summary, look at online RPGs as their own little microcosmic world and accept their minimal effect on our real world.
You have to look at the buyers of EQ accounts to get the reasons behind the price differences.
A buyer of a high level EQ account is most likely to be a person that wants a position of power and respect in the game. They want the to be the 'best'. Or near the top anyway.
So much so, that they are willing to pay hundreds of real US dollars for it. This type of player is most likely a male player in real life. Power and sense of being respected (looked up to) is more important to male online gamers. A high percentage of male players (over 80%) play male avatars online. So there is going to be a higher demand for high level male avatars for EQ.
In general, women play EQ for more of a sense of community and social interaction. These goals do not require a female player to purchase a high level EQ account. Also, there are only about 15-20% real life female players in EQ. So even if they were looking to buy an account there would be far fewer female buyers compared to male.
Another interesting demographic is that only 1-2% of female EQ players play as males.
Good source of info on this subject can be found here: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/
Chew: You Nexus, huh? I design your eyes.
Roy: Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes.
You guys.. it doesn't matter... even the FEMALE characters in EverQuest are guys....
thanks to Viagra!
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
And, wasn't their even a case in the US, where the operators of a game show cheated by giving the more handsome candidate advance knowledge of the questions and answers. There was even a movie made of the incident.
And yes, if a movie is really bad, some people do try to demand their money back
So there does indeed seem to be some sue-able value to entertainment.
...You all could have gone to see this thing live, except for this:
2003-07-24 18:54:47 Hacker Court: Mock Trial of a MMOG Hacker (articles,doj) (rejected)
Anyway, it doesn't really surprise me that they came up with no decision. It does speak volumes as to how "busy" the American people are, though, that they would attribute value to the time taken to obtain an item garnered from a process that is supposed to be (by design) enjoyable by itself.
Sometimes i think trolling should be modded up ;-)
-- search the web
Tibia is a fun and great online rpg for windows/linux with over 10 worlds to play in. Sadly the linux client isnt updated very often, so consider the win32 one anyway :-(. Check it out!
-- search the web
Their value is in the trust we all have, that we can trade the money for tangible items of real worth.
Just as the game designers can decide to create more of the very rare 20-in-the-world-only item, the people working at the mint can create more coins, notes - money. This would have dire consequences for the national economy - just as it would have dire consequences for the sales of the game.
My point is that virtual money are just as real (or unreal) as real-world money. Both of them are just symbols of value. They are not value in themselves. And yes, both of them can be traded for items with a real value (real in Marx' and Smith's sense).
Now the real world money can be used in more places than virtual money; you can use any currency almost anywhere in the world, if you can find a bank. But you would need to go through the pains of trading on ebay in order to exchange your virtual money to real money or vice versa.
there's the virtual world and the *physical* world. The term Real World is too narrow.
If you talk to someone in a virtual world you are really talking to them (although "chat" maybe a better word for it). Just what's so not real about the virtual world that the physical one is so much more real? press c, crouch in the virtual world. Bend legs, crouch in the physical world.
(appended to the end of comments you post)
"Ok, so let me get this straight. You played a game in which someone cheated. And now someone has to pay you for it? No, you go play a different game. This is covered in kindergarten here in the U.S.; I'm not sure how this particular life lesson is passed on in other countries."
This isn't about cheating, it's about hacking. I think there would be very few people who would think to sue someone who killed and robbed them in-game, or someone who used a clever scam to cheat them out of some money or items. Yes, that is part of the game and part of the reason why people play.
Hacking is another matter. Suppose someome hacked into a few systems and wiped all the prepaid call time off your cellphone account, and all your frequent flyer miles with the airline, and so on. You'd want them back, wouldn't you? Perhaps you and your wife/friend were going to take a vacation to Hawaii with those miles.
If you think that in-game items are worthless as opposed to call time and airmiles, think again. Go look on Ebay: these virtual items can be worth quite a bit, and most in-game currencies have a pretty stable exchange rate to dollars. The reason that these items have value is because they are unstealable in-game pretty much. A smart Ultima Online player keeps most of his gold in the bank, and he can be sure that there is no way that another player can take his house from him. If it could be 'legally' stolen from you in-game, people would not pay such large sums for one. But because players are secure in the knowledge that they'll be able to keep that house, they are willing to pay $500 or more for the privilege of owning one. A hacker destroying or taking virtual property goes outside the rules of the game, and people feel rightly cheated out of items that have a real-world value. Perhaps they even paid real money for these items, and you can bet that the hacker who steals items will flog them on Ebay: to him, the virtual items are certainly worth real money.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
You are so right. However, the world will never be the same after mankind discovered ways to sell, buy, and sue each other over ASCII strings used as Internet domain names.
http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
"excellent analysis of gender inequality between male and female Everquest avatars." I can't think of a more pointless thing to study. Is this guy pursuing a doctorate in Rabid Liberalism? Pfffffft!
This isn't about cheating, it's about hacking. I think there would be very few people who would think to sue someone who killed and robbed them in-game, or someone who used a clever scam to cheat them out of some money or items. Yes, that is part of the game and part of the reason why people play.
Hacking is another matter. Suppose someome hacked into a few systems and wiped all the prepaid call time off your cellphone account, and all your frequent flyer miles with the airline, and so on. You'd want them back, wouldn't you? Perhaps you and your wife/friend were going to take a vacation to Hawaii with those miles.
The way I see it is this:
-Action: A player does something in game that's within the realms of the game to harm my character in some way.
-Reaction: Punish that character in the game through the means available to me in the game. If the game has setup some sort of court system to bring this guy into, then do that, otherwise, just go PvP and retaliate, and/or get others to help in this cause.
-Action: A player and/or random person does something outside of the game to affect characters/events inside the game (ie hacking / cracking / whateveryouwanttocallit), depriving people of their characters and items.
-Reaction: the developers should restore order and fix whatever it was that let the person do this, and then decide for themselves whether or not they wish to take real-world action against the person to recover their real-world losses. It is the developers' responsibility to fix the hole that was exploited, and to do as much as possible to restore the damage done in the game (or find a way to fit it into the game), but at the same time, the developers were responsible for the hole being there in the first place, too.
Another note, though: if someone tricks another person into giving them their password (which would presumably allow the person to take the other person's character and/or items), the developers have no responsibility towards that person except to secure their account once they have proven they are the original owner of the account. I realize that some people are a bit sneaky in how they do these things. Similarly, I realize that people are really stupid and fall for these things. However, it is because of both sides existing (stupidity and sneakiness) that I have to stare at this damned warning saying that Blizzard will never ask for your password when I log onto Battle.net, and then 2 seconds later I see someone trawling for passwords.
-PainKilleR-[CE]
What you don't believe me?!?!?! *Vas Ort Flam* *In Nox* *Corp Por* *Corp Por* *Corp Por*
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
Ok I'll grant you being without your +9 vs orges simitar is a loss but what is the value of that loss. Could you have legaly sold the simitar in the real world? In everquest no, so there is no resale loss to you. What is the cost of replacing the item? Nothing, the item is virtual and can be perfectly recreated an infinite number of times.
You could claim being without you +9 Vs orges simitar for a time reduced your enjoyability but the idiot who yells at the screen during a movie reduces yor enjoability as well and what damages can you claim from him.
In short I think the user has a very limited claim on the the craker/exploiter in the online mud world and would have to demonstrate a real loss.
I have no
Ok I'll bite. While I agree with you in most cases lets look at EQ specifically.
I'm paying 13.95 a month to play on Verant/SOL servers. Part of that montly fee could be seen as a promise from Verant/SOL that every single time I log into the game the things I have accuired in game will be there.
Enter A hacker who breakes into their servers (which I'm paying them to maintain) and deletes my stuff.
Now according to you its tough luck on my part and I should just go find a new game. But my wallet is now 14 bucks lighter and Verant/SOL haven't lived up to their promises. I want one of two things, my money back from Verant/SOL or my items back. Its up to them which will cost them more.
If I choose to take my gaming dollars elsewhere AFTER they have made good on their promises thats up to me. But until its free to play on their servers Verant/SOL MUST provide ME the PAYING customer the service I expect and deserve.
Apple free since 1990!
You played a game in which someone cheated. And now someone has to pay you for it? No, you go play a different game.
You get mugged on the street in your hometown and your wallet is stolen. Do you go to the police and try to get justice and get your wallet back, or do you just pick up and move to another town?
This is a relative measure of value, and as long as you can only trade the shears for other virtual items it is very difficult to pin down a specific cost. However controlling a character with shears or some other virtual item is presumably more fun than controlling a character without, so the shears have some entertainment value. (It might be so low as to be unmeasurable, though.)
This makes it sound like opportunity cost is also a subjective measure of value. And, indeed, it is if you cannot trade the shears for something non-virtual. However I've heard that you can sell MMORPG items on eBay for real money, thereby giving the shears a non-virtual value. Money would also have a subjective value, except you can use it to buy things you objectively need, like calories, thereby objectifying it.
So the value of the shears is the amount of real money you can get for transferring their virtual possession. And the value of the real money is the physical needs you can satisfy with it:
Yes, you most certainly can, you just need to find a buyer willing to pay for the dagger in US currency. The Gov't props up the value of some things (like green paper). The value of EVERYTHING is only what people think it is. Witness the valuelessness of the currency of countries with high inflation--the gov't saying the ruble is acceptable currency doesn't make it valuable.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
As for me.... I'm going to go sue the crap out of that guy that tripped me during the weekend warrior basketball game.
I hope you're not looking forward to another one of those games... I stole the ball.
But thats OK, right? Basketball is just a game, I mean, sure, you put money into the game by buying the ball, but its still just a game and the fact that you paid is irrelevant. Besides, your basketball should have had GPS and an explosive device which armed if I took it from the court, to prevent me from stealing it. So clearly, because your basketball was not protected it wasn't even worth playing with anyway.
Have a nice day.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Dang, it's going to be hard to convince my boss to let me go next year. This year, I was slated to go, but it got nixed because of budget crunch.
Didn't anything good happen?
Man, you guys sure got fired up. Ok, so each of you has brought up a rebuttal, and most of your rebuttals have the same quality: they're all in the *real world*. So let's review:
1. Those items are data; data can be backed up, data can be restored.
2. In the real world, if you steal my ball, you can be arrested because the ball costs money to replace.
3. I never said the hackers shouldn't be arrested. They committed a crime, sure, but should you get money for virtual tangibles? I don't think so. Their crimes consist of illegal computer access.
4. The sysops can not only give you back your virtual stuff, they can give you a virtual bonus with no additional cost to themselves. And if those items are worth money, as one rebutter (rebuttalist?) pointed out, some of these points/items are worth money on EBay. You not only get your stuff back, you come out a winner. Of course, this depends on how much the game operators want people to use their games. The same can be said about the level of security they provide.
Again, I feel it falls to the game operators to provide a secure setup. Failing to do that, it falls on them to replace your virtual stuff. You can nitpick about the time used to do that, but really it costs them nothing to replace these items.
I think it's silly to pay someone for gaming virtual tangibles that can be replaced in any quantity with little or no cost.
If the game operators want to go after the hackers for breaking, entering, and destroying data, that's a different story, and really the only proper (IMHO) solution.
And I'll say it again: if you still feel that monetary damages should be awarded for destruction of gaming points and objects, you need to get out in the sun and mingle with the populace a little more.
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***