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Linking Dangerously
indole writes "Some /.'ers might remember the story of Sherman Austin, a Californina native who created the "anarchy" website raisethefist.com. Besides posting links to bomb-making instructions, the site caught the ire of the FBI for advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government. Well, approximately 18 months later Sherman Austin, now age 20, has been sentenced to 1 year in federal prison. According to Austin, 'he took a plea bargain because he feared his case was eligible for a terrorism enhancement, which could have added 20 years to his sentence.' Doubleplusungood."
I thought it was common knowledge that you don't disagree with the government.
Wilson said he also may not associate with anyone from a group that "espouses physical force as a means of change."
does that include the US government?
I once updated my web page while driving drunk and blindfolded accross landmines, all the while eating food from arby's.
This to me is just scary. Yes he was giving instructions on how to make chemical reactions work. Whoopdeedo! We live in America, and in the america i grew up in we don't censor information from the public. And he wasn't realyl even giving instructions - he never (AFAIK) disseminated the information, he just linked to it. It's like being arressted for telling people that you KNOW how to make bombs....
But the most scary thing of all is this qoute from this website: "(5) he cannot associate with any person or group that seeks to change the government in any way (be that environmental, social justice, political, economic, etc.), "
How can the courts do that? This guy has rights that cannot under any circumstances be taken away. Part of those rights are freedom of speech - expecially political freedom of speech - and policital freedom of speech again AFAIK is only when you want to try to change the government somehow.
This guy got shafted by a horrible judge who shouldn't be allowed to work. If i were president, or governer i would pardon this man becuase he doesn't deserve to have his life ruined for such a simple thing as disseminating information.
As a highschooler what am I to think growing up? Do we really have our Bill of Rights anymore? Every day i see more news about parts of it being chipped away - of course all in the name of protecting the country from terrorism. (since free speech, habius corpus, etc are an evil evil thing... ) BULLSHIT!
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.Raisethefi st.com
The internet archive has the site archived from many dates over the past several years.
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
key word being "peaceably";
"links to bomb-making instructions, the site
caught the ire of the FBI for advocating the
overthrow of the U.S. government"
Last I checked...bombs weren't peaceful.
Gibble: Descriptive of an emotional state in which one's mind is scrabbling for some purchase on reality
As I recall, this individual wasn't prosecuted for what he said. It was because he was trying to break into military computers. What did he expect to happen?
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Sherman said it in his narrative on the site:
"Remember, fascism and a police state doesn't come all at once, it comes piece by piece. How far will we allow it go until we are all locked up in concentration camps."
The government has basically forbid this guy from criticizing the system. I hope that this sends a message to everyone in the same situation to not plead down, and to raise as much hell as possible.
Why is it, that when someone describes in layman terms some basic exothermic chemistry, they are public enemy number 1? Should we hang the acedemics for teaching this chemistry? I am concerned about the wider scale of such generalized concepts in which people are categorized as criminals for learning and retaining knowledge that makes other's feel threatened. From cell phone cloning, to virus generation, to installing NOS on a car, and flying a non FAA Wright Flyer replica. People are increasingly punished for creativity, when they should be punished only for the dangerous and harmful actions they commit. I do not care that I was hit with a rock tied to a stick (tomohawk)only that I was attacked and hit in the first place.
As long as you speak the new speak and waive your flag.
But the US isn't European. It broke away from that through a violent overthrow of the current (European) government. The 1st amendment was put there because the people who wrote it knew that systems get stale and governments get corrupt. It's there specifically to protect the ability to criticise the government. While I don't personally advocate the overthrow of the whole system, I'm in favor of electing someone else to run the country right now. If enough people feel oppressed enough, they should be able to advocate that revolution. Meanwhile, this is the kind of oppression that does lead to a revolution.
I call troll...
Europe has been home of dozens of violent revolutions over the years. Just talk to the French to start with. You can move on to other countries when you are done there.
What is the end result of these revolutions? Social progress. The eventual overthrow of tyrants and the establishment of democracy has generally improved the quality of life.
Yes, people die during violent revolutions. People are jailed. In the long run, though, if enough people believe that a violent overthrow of the government is called for, it almost always means that the people will be better off after the revolution.
The U.S.'s freedom of speech was set up to allow all degrees of discussion, from political commercials to lobbying to advertising to calling for a violent revolution to overthrow the government.
Remember - the same people that wrote the First Amendment just got done with a violent revolution.
This does not mean that the government should stand idly by while people violently revolt. The government has a responsibility for self-preservation. However, talking about a violent overthrow should be completely allowed.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
Four minutes after posting 10 replies are crying that the government has violated his first amendment rights... let's not forget that the dumbass cracked into several sites (including the army), defaced them, inserted nasty little cgi scripts and happily posted DoS tools. On top of all this he admitted that he did all this. He even said, "If I go to jail, then I will go to jail not based on my actions, but based on what I think..." The moron got what he wanted. They're sending him away on his actions, not what he thinks.
As for the scare bit about "an extra 20 years for the terrorism..." that's a troll for getting the story picked up. Even if he had gone to trial, the extra 20 years isn't a mandatory thing - it's a maximum sentence of up to 20 years. In the end he probably would have ended up in the same spot or gotten an extra year. I can't belive this is even worth digging up again, but hey, it's a slow newsday.
But the word "peaceably" is not attached to the right to free speech or press. It is only attached to the right for the people to peaceably assmble (ie, it's ok to stand outside Congress and protest something, but not ok to start a riot over it).
You could argue that the "you can't shout fire in a crowded theather" refinement the Supreme Court has added would also cover bomb making instructions, but I disagree. You can't shout fire because it would cause direct damage to people (stampeed). But knowing how to make a bomb and posessing instructions on how to make a bomb and even sharing those instructions/knowledge does not cause direct damage to other people. A person would have to choose to make that bomb and then use it to hurt others. Let me highlight that special word: choose. Having knowledge or sharing it is not the same as hurting someone directly.
Space for rent, inquire within
the site caught the ire of the FBI for advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government.
Let's see what Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers on this nation, had to say about the subject.
"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." Letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787.
" . . . forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. . . . And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. . . . The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." Letter to William Stephens Smith, Nov. 13, 1787.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - BF
Warning: IANAL.
First take a look at the search warrant issued against the home of Austin.
What we see here is that he's being suspected of breaking two specific laws.
18 USC 1030 - Computer Fraud
Austin is charged under this because he was suspected of being responsible for several defacements which are detailed in the warrant. Looking at what's in the warrant there seems to be more than enough evidence to support this charge.
18 USC 842(p)(2) - Unlawful Distribution of Information Relating to Explosives, etc...
In the search warrant are several quotes from raisethefist.com in which information about explosives is provided along side some comments that encourage this knowledge be used against police officers.
Here's the exact quote from 18 USC 842 (p)(2)(A):
to teach or demonstrate the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, with the intent that the teaching, demonstration, or information be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence;
Clearly what Austin did, provide information about explosives within the context of causing harm to others with said knowledge, falls under this law.
From the information that I have available it seems very apparent that Austin did commit crimes under current US law.
Now had Austin removed suggestions for use of this bomb making knowledge and just presented it in a separate, straight-forward format, he could not be charged under 18 USC 842.
However, he still defaced some sites and thus is still in violation of 18 USC 1030.
Remember, IANAL, but this seems pretty straightforward to me. No freedom of speech issue here.
I invite you to read that page.
Here's a quote that defines just how many of your rights have been looted from under your ignorant feet
Fourth Amendment? Who needs it, certainly not the helpful Government. They'll never abuse this power, only use it to fight Terrorists! Oh, and Drugs! Oh, and they'll use it to Save The Children!
So you think that a Disorderly Conduct and Unlawful assembly charge warrants a ONE YEAR sentence?
Do you believe that the US WEF protesters were trying to commit sedition?
There is a huge difference between opposing certain policies of a government and attempting to overthrow it. ( A ridiculous possibility in the case of the US ).
That's a very valid point, but I think everyone has to admit that there is a slippery slope for freedom of speech. Our country has a tradition of civil disobdience, and it wasn't all peaceful. I'm wary of any government which is so worried about being overthrown. Earning the respect of the majority of citizens is the way to stay in power, not locking people up for distributing already widely available information.
It's pseudofascist morons like you that are ruining this country, not the kid in his basement. So, I must ask you, if you don't like the laws of this country, such as the first ammendment, why don't you move to a country that has a legal system more to your liking? I hear that Iran doesn't allow any of that pesky questioning of authority, I'm sure you'd fit right in.
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
"Austin was arrested with other protesters at the World Economic Forum in New York in February 2002 on charges of disorderly conduct and unlawful assembly. "
WTF are you talking about? Oh yeah, you didn't RTFA. [snip] He wasn't just preaching.. he was practicing what he preached. Therefore, he posed a REAL threat, not a virtual one.
It has become increasingly difficult to practice our freedom of peaceful protest, so don't be so quick to write this guy off as a "real threat".
I was at the WEF protest in NYC, too. Cops were turning some people away from the protest, pinning other people behind barricades and not letting them leave the protest, packing hundreds into some pens while leaving other pens with only a handful of people. Numerous people who disagreed were arrested. One cop nearly pushed me over when he hit me in the back with his club when I stopped to ask another cop for directions (politely) as we were leaving. . .
GWB has used the phrase "with us or against us" several times.
Q Mr. President, does it appear that Iran is flexing its muscles in Western Afghanistan, and does that threaten the U.S. war on terrorism in that region?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, Iran must be a contributor in the war against terror; that our nation and our fight against terror will uphold the doctrine, either you're with us or against us; and any nation that thwarts our ability to rout terror out where it exists will be held to account, one way or the other.
Source - vote-smart.org presidential speeches pageAnd what exactly is wrong with violent overthrow of the government? Thomas Jefferson said "The tree of liberty must be regularly watered by the blood of patriots." (to paraphrase) It is the tendency of government to become entrenched and intractable to the point where only violent revolution can make a difference. The USA was a "great experiment" to construct a series of rules (a constitution) that would hopefully prevent the need for violent revolution. Whether you count this experiment as a success or failure, I don't see how in good conscience you can forbid someone to advocate a solution to a problem they percieve.
Why for instance is it ok for GWB to advocate, and actually accomplish the overthrow of an atrocious government that he is not even a citizen of, whereas this fellow cannot even speak what is in his mind the only solution to repair the very government he lives it? The gov't must not have a monopoly on violence. Of all the groups, politicians are the least worthy to handle it.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
(5) he cannot associate with any person or group that seeks to change the government in any way (be that environmental, social justice, political, economic, etc.)
That to me sounds like they're encroaching on rights to freedom of political expression, without fear of reprisal by those in power (going back to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison).
It's in the same ballpark as some corrupt african states where people either support the government, live as a political exile or face the prospect of being torured and/or killed.
Ok, so nobody is being tortured or killed in the USA (that's what happens in Cuba at Guantanamo, and a whole other kettle of fish), but this man's right to change the government should still be respected. We all have that right, whether we know it or not, we get to vote in another government if the current one makes a right pig's ear of the job.
The right to political activism and peaceful protest should be a given in any country that truly deems itself "free".
I am NaN