Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband

dwm writes "Think broadband over power lines (BPL) would be wonderful? There might be some collateral damage. The American Radio Relay League (your friendly neighborhood ham radio operators) have documented dramatic HF radio interference in areas where BPL is being tested (Check out the video of actual interference)."

Comments

Yes, post a "video" link in the story!!!

[CoyoteGuy]

That is one of the best ways to slashdot a site!! haha Very good technique grasshopper, but you are no match for my slashdot skill!!!

Ham radio users

[trippinonbsd]

How many people still rely on ham radio? Why havent they moved over to something a little more modern? Does ham radio have any advantages over current technology?

Re:Ham radio users

[Directrix1]

It can go around the world without the need of a network. That is all.

Re:Ham radio users

[ForestGrump]

Being a ham myself...
Ever go camping and think..
"I'll bring my cell phone and if an emergency happens, I can call for help."

Well welcome to the world of "modern technology". Cell phones are great. I admit it. My mother can find me pratically any place, anywhere. Car breaks down in the middle of the highway, I can call AAA for a tow truck. Etc.

However, cell phones magically don't work when there is no network.

So if you went camping in the mountains, or your on a remote strip of road and there is no cell network, GOOD LUCK!
A ham radio, not being network dependent, you can put out a call for help (and hope that someone is listening on the other end.) Atleast with a HAM, your chances of finding help infinately higher.

Now what else can ham radios do?
-Ham radios have great range. using something like 0.5 watts of power, I can talk to a friend a mile away. (go to same high school) Using 5 watts of power (typical for a hand heald), I can talk to someone else 10-15 miles away without trouble.

Also, I can drive around in a car, talk to someone when I'm driving to and from work without running a fatty cell phone bill.

So yes. I, being a HAM op, have moved to something more modern (cell phone), however, I still prefer to use the ham in the car (saves cell phone mins).

HOpe this post helps.
-Grump.

Re:Ham radio users

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

"Does ham radio have any advantages over current technology?"

Yes. It is a distributed network of independent nodes, most of which have generators and battery backups, whose primary reason for existing is for emergency communications. In case of massive disruption of power and other transmissions ... they can keep broadcasting. It's low-tech, cheap, and easy. Can even be mobile. And in the intervals between emergencies, you can chat.

After the big Mexico City earthquake, all the microwave towers had to be realigned, the phones were out until lines and power to switching equipment could be restored, and none of the TV stations could reach their satellites - one TV building collapsed. For the critical first few hours, the hams in Mexico City (civilian, military and diplomatic nodes) were the sole source of contact between the city and the rest of the world ... much of it through New Zealand hams who then relayed the information to North America because of an odd bounce in the transmissions.

After things settled down a bit, I spent hours at a local tech college's ham setup with other bilingual persons, recieving and transcribing "we're OK" messages, while other students relayed the messages to the closest ham station they could reach that might be able to get the message through. On the Mexican end, mobile ham units were relaying messages, neighborhood by neighborhood. (most of those neighborhoods don't have running water, let alone cable for boradband).

Re:Ham radio users

[the_argent]

I realize you are trolling....
But I'll bite. Recently here in NE Ohio, we were hit by some pretty bad storms that caused some pretty destructive flash flooding. Hams reporting weather conditions and flood reports over the SKYWARN system were able to get realtime info to both the national weather service and to the local Red Cross branch so that they could get shelters set up in trouble areas before they were needed. In particular, an apartment complex had two of their buildings cut off when the little 12" stream that ran in front of their building rose to 12 feet. This also knocked out power to that area, so we had roughly 100+ people isolated (the only way out was a good 40 min hike though some rough terrain even if it hadn't been pouring down rain for 8 hours already) on the other side of a now major river. Two ham's (sorry guys, forget your calls) hopped in a 4WD vehicle and went there and did an onsite assesment even before the already overtaxed police showed up on site. That is what ham radio is really set up for. The band allocation that we get to play with is meant for emergency communications. Sure, we use it for rag chews mostly, but when the crap hits the fan, I'm glad I have a 2M HT that can get me communications when I need it. The major trouble with the BPL thing is that it already creates interference on the bands, and they lobbiests want to increase the wattage they push, which will worsen the situation exponentially.
And besides, what good will a cell phone do if your towers go down like they did when the WTC fell? Ham radio had comms flowing in and out of ground zero in under 3 hours then.
Ham radio still fills a very vital role in todays world when a disaster strikes.

73 KC8SNS

Re:Ham radio users

[dj2fast]

I am a rather new ham radio operator, and I cannot believe the way the slashdot community is responding to this. With even a quick evaluation it should be clear that the benefits of amateur radio are more important than bpl. To me, the primary difference is that ham radio can be a challenge, and the internet is simple point and click. Try being 50 miles from a Utility plug, with a 8w 6meter radio. and have fantasitic comunications with people all over the states. try doing that with the internet. And you will see just how valuable ham radio is

Re:Ham radio users

[Nonillion]

When the Internet and your cell phone go down the only thing left is Ham Radio. The power companys dream of providing internet access is going to do nothing but DEVISTATE the HF bands with RF pollution. Hams are not the only ones using the HF bands, the military, broadcasters and others have alot to be concernd about. Not to mention that you WILL be able to sniff packets since a great deal of the energy WILL radiate (how is the DMCA going to be enforced? ban all radios??). Power lines were built to one thing and one thing only, deliver power not deliver broad band internet services. Ham radio is still very much alive and kicking, I get on HF all the time and there is too much RF pollution there already (consumer electronics e.g. TVs, DSL modems, hubs, switches, computers etc).

Re:Ham radio users

[Alien Being]

"Am I wrong?"

The importance of ham radio becomes apparent during wartime and other emergency situations. Battery, antenna, and radio and you're "online". There are too many things (and people) that can happen to the average person's IP connectivity.

Re:Ham radio users

[suwain_2]

That's really naive. Why do we still rely on cars? They're over 100 years old; haven't we moved to something more modern?

To suggest that ham radio hasn't evolved is completely ignorant. Modern ham radios sport LCDs, top-quality DSP filters to pull out signals you might not otherwise here, advanced speech compression, etc. Modern repeaters are Internet-linked; a local repeater might be linked with one in a foreign country over the Internet. It's hardly the radio Marconi knew.

Futhermore, hams are constantly coming up with new ideas. 'Back in the day,' it was a ham who invented cordless phones. (Which eventually evolved into cell phones.) Hams are constantly innovating; while some hams love nothing more than Morse code on an 'antique' radio, quite a few are also pioneering new technologies -- PSK31, for example, a remarkable digital technology usable on the HF (worldwide) bands, that uses very little bandwidth and is able to work well even with heavy interference.

Yet another factor you overlook is the role hams play in emergency communications. A TON of hams are actively involved in emergency communications. I'm hundreds of miles from New York City; on September 12th, 2001, several local hams flew out to NYC to help with emergency communications. In a testament to how many hams help, they were turned away due to the fact that they already had too many volunteers providing emergency communications.

I have a cell phone and a high-speed Internet connection. But what happens when there's an Earthquake, and the local phone lines (which the cell towers are connected to) and Internet lines are taken down? Hams have a history -- that lives on -- of providing emergency communications.

Re:Ham radio users

[stick-boy]

According to this website, there are "736577 active Amateur licenses" as of August 8, 2003.

Why don't they move over to something more modern? Do they have to? Maybe because of the challenge of making a contact over hundreds of miles using very low watt transcievers, or experimenting with Earth-Moon-Earth communications, or slow-scan TV. Just because they can pick up a phone and call someone the same distance away isn't the point. I can easily install windoze on a computer and make it work, but that doesn't mean I have to. I prefer a challenge, which is why I started playing with Linux and use it on most of my computers. How many of you installed Linux the first time, just for the challenge? Maybe it wasn't the easiest system to use, and people might say, "why don't you just use windoze?" I'm just trying to make the slashdot audience understand where hams are coming from, although the analogy may be bad.

I'm torn about the BPL issue, though. I applied for and got my first ham license 2 months ago, and I got my first "rig" a couple weeks ago. I'm excited to start a new hobby, and I'm studying to upgrade to a General class license. On the other hand, BPL would allow my parents to have broadband. They live 3 miles from a small town, and currently use Wi-Fi which sometimes works. I'd like to see more people get broadband, but does it have to be at the cost of losing a hobby that's been around for 100 years?

~jason
KC0QHQ

Re:Ham radio users

[Goody]

It's more of a hobby than a necessity

Is broadband pr0n a necessity ? Don't answer that :-)

Ham radio may just be a hobby, but it is an important one. We provide emergency communications when celular, telco, and power are dead. It promotes international goodwill. It allows many people to learn RF engineering and become great engineers. For the nerds, you can play with high power RF, pass data, send video, bounce signals off the moon, use sattelites, and much more....

Re:Ham radio users

[NanoGator]

"Is broadband pr0n a necessity ?"

Well it did take the wind out of her "I'm withholding sex from you" threats. Come to think of it, it might have caused some of those too...

Re:Ham radio users

[NanoGator]

"The importance of ham radio becomes apparent during wartime and other emergency situations. Battery, antenna, and radio and you're "online". There are too many things (and people) that can happen to the average person's IP connectivity. "

It's true. When the war started, that's how John Connor was able to make contact with the resistance fighters.

Re:Ham radio users

[Eosha]

"It's more of a hobby than a necessity"

As a strike team leader for a mountain search and rescue team, I'll tell you that without HAM radio, our job would be just plain impossible in many situations. There simply is no other option currently in existence. HAM radio is not only a hobby, but in my line of work it's a critical life-support resource, more so than any other technology we use (except maybe a flashlight). Tell the thousands of people whose lives have been saved through S&R or any of the other emergency situations that depend on HAM capabilities that it's not really a necessity.

KD5SMV

Re:Ham radio users

[Gonarat]

Wait until there is a natural (or man made) disaster in your area and comunications are knocked out. No phone, internet, or power. Ham radio can be the only way to communicate out of an area. Modern communications are great, but there are times when good old ham radio is needed, and is the only way to communicate. So, yes, it is just a hobby -- at least until that tornado, earthquake, hurricane, etc. comes...

DE WB3IZT

Re:Ham radio users

[Alien Being]

"The answer is to discover which frequencies this interferes with and move the hams off of those frequencies. "

In other words, take some more ground from the commons and give it to big business. No thanks.

And even if I did agree with you on that point, this case would still be different. It's a wired service. The RF bandwidth is being wasted because it's just a lousy way to send data. If they set their minds to it, they could probably come up with an economical way to string some fiber over the towers they already own. Power lines have some serious but unavoidable drawbacks as it is. Why add more problems?

Re:Ham radio users

[demonbug]

HAM radio is not only a hobby, but in my line of work it's a critical life-support resource, more so than any other technology we use (except maybe a flashlight). Tell the thousands of people whose lives have been saved through S&R or any of the other emergency situations that depend on HAM capabilities that it's not really a necessity.

I have to second this. On a class camping trip a few years back we were at a hike-in campground along the coast in a remote part of California (yes, there are still some remote parts of California). One morning while boiling water for some coffee one of the guys on the trip accidentally overturned the pot, drenching himself with boiling water. Needles to say, he received some extremely bad burns from this. We were out of cell range, no phones within 15-20 miles, and no vehicles with us. The scope of the burns was way beyond anything we could treat with the first aid equipment we had on hand. Fortunately, one of the people on the trip was an amateur HAM radio operator and had brought his portable equipment along. Unable to contact anyone nearby, he was able to contact an operator in Hawaii, who then called the police and rescue people in our vicinity, who were then able to send a truck to pick him up in just over an hour. The HAM radio probably saved this guy's life - though yes, if we had had a satellite phone along it might have done the trick (but then it might not have - after using GPS, which tends to be extremely fickle in wooded areas, I'm not at all certain that it would have worked anyway). HAM provides a long-range method of communications that we really don't have a higher-tech replacement for at this point.

Re:Ham radio users

[emtboy9]

give ya a real good example of this... this past winter most of North Carolina was covered in snow or several inches of hard packed ice. Millions of people were without power and heat for as much as 3 weeks or so (we had no power at my house for 17 days).

In fact, the problems with the ice were so bad that none of the localities around had comms either. All their fancy trunked systems failed because of towers coming down, repeaters losing power and running their backups down, etc etc.

The local ARES groups activated and provided what ended up being the ONLY form of communication for at least a few days until power was slowly restored. At one point in Chapel Hill, NC, ARES members were riding around in fire trucks and police vehicles because the Cops, firefighters and Paramedics couldnt use their own radios due to outages).

I realize that a lot of what is said here is due to trolling, but some of the comments I have read are of just plain ignorance. And to answer something else, BPL does not just affect Ham frequencies... it will basically overload any reciever tuning in a freq in the HF spectrum, from 1.5MHz allthe way to 30MHz and maybe beyond. and a LOT more people than just Hams use those frequencies.

sounds like a fair trade to me!

[larry bagina]

I'm sure the hams wouldn't mind so much if they realized how much free porn they could get with powerline broadband.

Article

[Silvertre]

...Something tells me this site is gunna go down, so here's the text of the article:

NEWINGTON, CT, Aug 6, 2003--ARRL President Jim Haynie, W5JBP, says Broadband over Power Line (BPL)--if widely deployed--would represent "spectrum pollution" on a level that is "difficult to imagine." Haynie reacted after seeing videotape and early data from recent ARRL field studies in four states where BPL is undergoing testing.

"BPL is the most crucial issue facing Amateur Radio and the one that has the most devastating potential," Haynie said. In terms of interference potential on HF and low-VHF frequencies, "nothing is on the same scale as BPL."

A form of power line carrier (PLC) technology, BPL would use existing low and medium-voltage power lines to deliver broadband services to homes and businesses. Because it uses frequencies between 2 and 80 MHz, BPL could affect HF and low-VHF amateur allocations wherever it's deployed. BPL proponents--primarily electric power utilities--already are testing BPL systems in several markets, and one reportedly is already offering the service. FCC rules already allow BPL, although industry proponents want the FCC to relax radiation limits. It's feared such a change could exacerbate BPL's interference potential.

At the West Gulf Division Convention (Austin Summerfest 2003) August 1-2 in Austin, Texas, Haynie previewed a short video (see below) that covers highlights of a recent field tour by ARRL Lab Manager Ed Hare, W1RFI. The video, which will complement technical data ARRL is gathering and compiling, turned out to be a real eye-opener for many in the audience.

Walt Dubose, K5YFW--assistant chairman of the ARRL High Speed Multimedia (HSMM) Working Group--said it was about what he'd expected. "But for most attending--maybe 60 percent--it was much worse than they had imagined, and for some it was a real shocker," he reported. Dubose said a few of those viewing the video simply couldn't believe that BPL actually was causing the high noise level.

In late July, Hare traveled some 1350 miles to visit BPL trial communities in Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania and New York to take measurements over significant parts of the HF spectrum. He also took initial readings at low-VHF frequencies. Driving a specially equipped vehicle loaded with radio gear and measurement devices, Hare said he didn't need to look long or track down "a few hot spots" to find BPL interference. "The signals were all over," he said.

"The interference found ranged from moderate to extremely strong," Hare said. The video shows the S meter of an HF transceiver holding steady in excess of S9 as the speaker emits a crackling din, which one observer described as sounding like a Geiger counter. Only the very strongest amateur signals broke through on 20 and 15 meters. Hare noted that the field strengths of the various systems all were within FCC Part 15 limits for power line carrier (PLC) devices.

At a couple of points, the video shows noise continuing nearly unabated on 15 and 20 meters as the car moves down long streets lined with overhead wiring. Hare said the signal propagated for at least a couple of miles down one road.

"Signals would have been much stronger using a gain antenna," he observed. Hare's vehicle carried a roof-mounted, horizontally polarized Buddi-Pole antenna--a loaded dipole.

Each BPL system exhibited a unique sound depending upon the modulation scheme it used, and Hare said he was able to distinguish three types during his recent tour. While in most cases, the signal sounded like static or pulse noise, in one city, it resembled sort of interference a computer monitor or similar device might generate, with warbling "birdies" blanketing the bands at closely spaced intervals. "Naturally, overhead wiring was the worst," Hare said. BPL signals continued to be audible in neighborhoods with underground electrical utility wiring, although it was somewhat attenuated.

The ARRL already has filed a 120-page package of text and technical exhibits

Mirror of video

[caluml]

I can see that video getting hammered.
I'm grabbing a copy here

Re:Mirror of video

[fatboy]

Ok, having watched the video and listen to the audio, the interference sounds like a bunch of clicks... does this corresponde to the data transfer occuring over the powerlines being a type of packet-burst communication?

The noise is a broadband hash of signals that cover tens of Mhz.

Here is a thread on qrz what has some answers by the guy that made the video, W1RFI.

Harmful interference

[frumin]

I'm a HAM radio oprator. It bothers me that some pople don't see anyting wrong with creating interference on already allocated radio waves. What if the same companies started to interfere with WiFi bands ? How would you react ?

Re:Harmful interference

[CharlieG]

Actually, Ham radio operators, being licensed do NOT have to accept interference! That is the diference between a "Part 15" device and a Part 97 device.

Your 802.11 device has to accept interference, part 97 (Ham radio) or any other licensed service does not

Re:Harmful interference

[ChuckleBug]

I'm not a radio geek, or lawyer, but, doesn't every device that has an FCC label on it basically say that you have to accept any interference that occurs? Therefore, if it bothered the 802.11 spectrum, we'd be irritated about it, and probably contact someone to get it changed. But, until things changed, we'd have to deal with it, either by filtering the noise, changing frequencies, etc.

You can't filter this stuff. It's absolutely rock-crushing interference. The problem is that the overhead electrical wiring is a really efficient antenna.

The other thing is, that Amateur Radio is a licensed service, which give it certain privileges, one of those being that you aren't allowed to interfere with it. You're thinking of unlicensed devices, like wireless phones, that aren't protected this way.

Yet another thing: BPL radiates over a HUGE bandwidth. The BPL companies want to use 2 to 80 MHz. That would wipe out the entire HF band, which hams and others use to communicate long distance. It also includes 6 meter VHF (50-54 MHz). In contrast the entire HF allocation to hams is 3.36 Mhz total. Include 6m, and it's 7.36. BPL is an enormous bandwidth hog.

This implementation of BPL would be disastrous for ham radio and anyone else using HF frequencies, like shortwave broadcasters, coast guard, government, marine, and so on.

The idea that they could obliterate 78 MHz of spectrum should be of concern to everyone, not just hams.

Either way, the ball is in the court of the HAM operators. Get together and start writing letters, making phone calls, etc.

We are. BTW, ham is not an acronym.

Re:Harmful interference

[Cerlyn]

Actually, the ball is in the opposite court. The FCC already has said that the Amateurs have the right to use their frequencies. The broadband powerline companies have to prove that they can safely do the same without disturbing other occupants.

What is going on IIRC is that Amateur Radio operators presently have licensed permission to operate using certain modes on certain frequencies. The power companies could do power over broadband without getting licensed, but they would have to do so at lower power (less distance) and as a unlicensed operation (i.e. if any licensed operator complained, they would have to fix their problem or cease operations).

What the power companies are trying to do is also get licensed permission, possibly on a higher basis of license than the Amateur Radio operators do. If they get a higher priority of license than the Amateur Radio operators, the Amateur Radio operators have to eat whatever the power lines put out.

The problem is that the power distribution system presently uses unshielded cables which radiate noise everywhere. Drive around town listening to the AM band if you don't believe me. In extreme cases and with certain devices (like transformers), the power company has to be called out to fix their interfering noise. This could be seen as an excuse to avoid doing so.

(I also seem to recall that DOCSIS cable modems skipped the ham bands to avoid interference going either way, but I do not recall which IEEE magazine and issue I have that states this; sorry.)

Re:Harmful interference

[DerekLyons]

I'm a HAM radio oprator. It bothers me that some pople don't see anyting wrong with creating interference on already allocated radio waves. What if the same companies started to interfere with WiFi bands ? How would you react ?

Many folks on /. cheerfully support music & video piracy, copyright infringement, and outright theft of other peoples IP.

Why should they feel different about the window of the electromagnetic spectrum you are legally entitled to use?

Re:Harmful interference

[peeping_Thomist]

and outright theft of other peoples IP.

There's no such thing as intellectual property. There's copyright law, trademark law, and patent law, but "IP" is an empty concept.

Re:Harmful interference

[fwc]

If the Amateur radio operators are out of compliance, believe me, the FCC will notify them and shut them down if they don't fix the problem.

That said, RFI problems like you described are usually NOT the fault of Amateur Radio operators. More specifically:

1. Many times the source of interference is someone operating illegally. Illegal CB operation (I.E. big huge amplifiers - which are against FCC rules, etc. etc.) is probably the biggest cause. Believe me, most Ham radio operators would love to take these people out back and teach them about respect for the rules.

2. Even if the source of the interference is an Amateur radio operator, many times the problem is tracked down to a low-quality piece of consumer equipment at the person being interfered with's end. As long as the Ham radio operator is operating within the rules, the owner of the equipment is responsible to fix the issue - as it is their equipment with the technical problem.

3. If it is in fact the amateur radio operator's problem, it is their duty to fix it. The FCC can and does pull licenses for this type of stuff.

If you are having problems along this line, contact your local Ham Radio Club a call. In most cases, they have a vested interest in finding the source of the problem and helping fix it. You can see clubs in your area by going to The club search page on the ARRL site.

Remember that Ham radio operators provide a valuable service when the crap hits the fan. Most Amateur radio operators are actually skilled in what they do and take great pains to insure they don't cause unwanted interference, as interference only hurts the Ham radio community.

Re:Harmful interference

[RocketScientist]

Keep that in mind next time you're flying in from europe on approach to Kennedy airport.

All the communications that planes use all the way across the ocean is shortwave. Aeronautical mobile service. But this is only a few thousand people a day, no big deal, let 'em miss the airport?

Maybe next time your fishing boat is out in the atlantic and you need to call the coast guard. Maritime mobile service. Wow, this might only be a dozen people a year, let 'em drown.

Your "proportion to number of users effected" argument doesn't look so good now does it?

Every time there's an earthquake or a hurricane in the western hemisphere, I get a little email from the FCC via the ARRL telling me I can't use a specific set of frequencies because they're being used for emergency health and welfare traffic. Usually this is the non-urgent stuff, like "yeah, mom, me and the kids got through the earthquake OK". But that's only a few thousand folks a year. Let mom worry.

These are things that happen. Real people who use those frequencies in ways that make their lives better. And you are advocating interfering with all of that so you can get Internet access into your house faster and cheaper. Your "nature of use" argument begins to wear here. Seriously, given the choice between more effective air-sea rescue and cheaper porn, you're choosing the porn. Unfortunately, I think the FCC's on your side. I don't think Congress is though, they've already overruled that dickmaster once.

Admittedly, this is low power interference, but on those frequencies, it doesn't take much to send signals globally. Seriously, you can send signals with fractions of a watt in the right conditions and get good readable copy on the other side of the world. This interference level would pretty much devastate those frequencies worldwide.

Re:who cares?

[evilpenguin]

...seeing as the internet WAS designed to withstand a nuclear attack!

I don't recall seeing this in any DARPA specifications. It was designed to provide network communications over unreliable links. And before people go off bashing ham radio, consider that Karn's Algorithm, a critical component of TCP/IP without which the Internet would have died long before the present number of hosts, was developed by Phil Karn, KA9Q (a ham radio operator) to solve problems with TCP over AX.25, the ham packet radio protocol.

"The Internet" would not survive a nuclear strike. Hell, as we have seen great swaths of it can be taken out by a clumsy backhoe operator. Ham radio definitely has uses. In fact, ham radio could quickly be brought to bear to provide TCP/IP links to replace damaged infrastructure.

Ham radio is often used to provide communications following disasters like hurricanes.

No doubt the Internet is more important, and more capable than ham radio in general, but with my ham gear and a 12v battery I can provide significant communications for a lot of people. How much of the internet functions when a whole city's power grid is out?

Re:Ham radio users - ampr.org

[Cerlyn]

That would be ampr.org, the 44.* subnet on the Internet.

Of course, it is largely isolated from the main Internet, since there are a lot of restrictions as to what can be done with Amateur Radio (no commercial use, no swearing, etc.) as opposed to the Internet at large.

Re:Right ON!

[John Miles]

I'm a ham, and I don't think this is a troll. It brings up a very valid point about the relative merits of two different communications paradigms.

HF ("short wave") communications certainly lacks the strategic and commercial importance it once had. It's always been a relatively-noisy, unreliable, and bandwidth-constrained way to communicate, and nowadays, HF is used primarily as a backup for satellite and long-haul microwave circuits. We could live without if we had to.

If, by sacrificing the entire HF radio spectrum, we could actually wire every home in the USA for economical broadband Internet access, I honestly wouldn't oppose it. Amateur Radio operators and commercial/military/governmental HF operators alike should realize the truth: we can't shy away from the technological, economic, and social potential of universal broadband Internet connectivity because of the lamentations of a few modern-day buggy-whip manufacturers.

Now, as a disclaimer, I will say that I don't believe that power-line distribution makes sense for broadband Internet. The power companies have spent the last hundred years optimizing their network to ship 60-Hz sine waves around, and trying to shovel data through a network like that is bound to be more trouble than, say, running fiber to every curb in America.

BPL is a dead end

[CausticWindow]

Yes, broadband over powerlines has proven to be a technological dead end. It's been tested over here for several years, and it's just not worth it compared to already installed adsl or cable.

The power companies is doing one thing right though, with every new long span high voltage line they're laying, they're twirling fiber with the lines. That's the future. A fiber channel into each and every home.

You called? Advanced Class, Right here :-)

[calebb]

I'm N7ZTT. I can never get my extra class license now that they lowered the morse code test to 5wpm - the advanced class (which no longer exists) is my only proof that I can transmit data by hand at ~10 baud (yes, faster than some early modems! 13wpm = ~10 baud)

If you follow that link, you'll see I earned my advanced class in 1993; I received my first license in ~1991. But I'm not an old fark, I was homeschooled & did this for part of my curriculum. I'm only 23 :-)

I'll make another post in a few minutes that won't be a brag thread. It's actually sorta sad to see Ham radio fading out. You can do everything and more on the internet than you can on amateur radio. Of course, if we had wide-scale power outages & the sun was spewing crud at our atmosphere, morse code could potentially be the only way to quickly send information to other countries. Due to the nature of morse code, it can be deciphered even with a very low S/N ratio.

Anyway, I'll make a more intelligent post soon:

Re:give the guy an insightful

[CharlieG]

The same place they found them after 9/11 where ham radio was the only reliable mode of comms around ground zero for a couple of days. You know who told the disaster workers WHO to contact to start getting phones setup? The Hams on site, who had contacts with the right folks

You live in, let's sa the LA area (you mention earthquakes). No a search on LA and CERT. The hams TRAIN to work with the police and fire departments in case of disaster

Look up ARES - The Amateur Radio Emergency Service

Look up the fact that ARES works closely with the Red Cross, the Dept of Homeland Security, FEMA, LOTS of fire departments, wilderness rescue teams and the like

Look up RACES - Look up what happens if the Government declares a Radio Communications Emergency (and think about what happens to your 802.11 links - say "Bye-bye")

International Treaties

[Detritus]

Have the proponents of BPL considered that it may be a violation of international treaties governing the use and allocation of the RF spectrum? If I want to put an HF transmitter on the air, I must obtain a license from my country's radio administration, who in turn is required to follow international treaties that say what frequencies and emission types are available for specific classes of users. There are bands reserved for broadcasting, ships, aircraft, amateur radio, etc.

Re:Ham radio users - ampr.org

[Cerlyn]

Packet radio is extremely routable. TCP/IP is one way we do it, but actually is not the most common method.

As another poster pointed out, amateur radio operators mainly use AX.25. Both TCP/IP and AX.25 are X.25 derivatines. AX.25 identifiers are Amateur Radio callsigns with numeric suffixes (such as "N0CALL-10"). AX.25 routing is done by broadcasting while gradually incrementing your TTL until someone hears them for you (if they aren't your immediate neighbor), or manually entered information (either as a route table or "Connect to SOME1 via SOME2, SOME3, SOME4").

There are also a few other ways (such as NETROM and ROSE) amateur radio operators can route information digitally. While it would be a stretch, NETROM could be considered our equivalent of BGP router advertising and periodic route annoucements. ROSE is a polled system similar to Token Ring.

We also have our share of propritary speedup techniques (such as KA-NODE from Kantronics) and experiemental protocols as well.

Slashdot only has part of the story

[KC7GR]

The bottom line is that BPL's harmful effects ARE NOT limited to ham frequencies. There's a bunch of other services, both commercial and government, using HF from 2-30MHz.

Just as a few examples: Aeronautical HF, NOAA RadioFAX over HF, NOAA storm warnings broadcast by SITOR over HF, Federal and Marine HF frequencies... The list goes on forever.

So, it really isn't just hams that are going to be suffering. It's EVERYONE that uses the HF spectrum, including the U.S. Government!

How long do you think said government is going to let BPL exist in its current form once critical military or Justice Department installations start noticing the very same interference that'll be driving us hams nuts?

BPL is a Technological Train Wreck

[Goody]

Passing data over power lines is irresponsible from an engineering perspective. Power lines were designed to carry very very low frequencies, 60 hertz to be exact. BPL is wideband noise from 1 to 80 megahertz.

Anyone with the slightest electical engineering knowledge knows that a signal of such high frequencies will be radiated and antenuated nearly immediately. The power lines are just awful transmission media for these frequencies. What is needed for the power cables is shielding -- that's what's known as coaxial cable. ( Why don't they pass data on cable ? :-)

This is analogous to the water company trying to deliver water with perforated pipes. The water just spills out everywhere and every couple hundred feet they would have to pump in more water so that you had sufficient water pressure at your house.

BPL was rejected in Japan and Europe, becuase it polluted the spectrum so bad it was pathetic.

For those dumping on ham radio as being obsolete or feel broadband is more important, consider that this will interfere with many other services including international ship distress frequencies, government (including military) allocations, shortwave broadcasts, and most likely aviation and public safety frequencies. Is your ability to get high speed pr0n more important than all this ?

Why is everyone else (like the FCC and utility companies) saying this is great ? The FCC is pro-big business and pro-utility. Equipment vendors are retreading the same technology that was rejected overseas and not informing their clients, the power companies, of the true interference potential. The power companies are dying to get into the broadband race as the telcos have their heads up their butts with DSL.

We need broadband, but this is not the solution. We need to remove the barriers for DSL and cable. Power companies could leapfrog the telcos and cable companies with fiber into the home or unlicensed wireless from their poles.

Quite simply, BPL is DOA.

Re:BPL is a Technological Train Wreck

[jrivar59]

consider that this will interfere with many other services including international ship distress frequencies, government (including military) allocations, shortwave broadcasts, and most likely aviation and public safety frequencies. Is your ability to get high speed pr0n more important than all this ?

yes.

Re:My experience with a Ham Group

[Dachannien]

Sample size: 1

Disappointed

[NatZi]

I have been reading /. for years and this is the most disappointing reaction to a story posting that I have seen to date.

First, BPL is proven to cause interference to more than just amateur radio. Amateur radio operators are one of the few groups that has the skills and capabilities to prove the problem exists before a major mistake is made in deploying BPL.

Second, I have seen a number of anecdotes indicating that "ham" radio operators are jerks and, therefore, apparently should not have any rights. Obviously, in any group, a small minority of the members may be jerks. However, "hams" are by far one of the kindest, most intelligent, and thoughtful groups that I know. It is not fair for me to minimize the "jerk" problem, but I cannot see a link between being a jerk and having rights taken away. Get to know some real amateur radio operators and you will see a dedicated, service-oriented, and technologically cutting edge group.

Third, amateur radio operators are licensed by the FCC. The licensing requires extensive testing and is conducted very professionally (locate a local VEC session and you will see what I mean about professionalism). The tests are rigorous, especially for the higher classes, and require the applicant to be seriously interested in radio and technical communications.
Amateur radio operators are not a bunch of people with "CBs" sitting around making life difficult for others.

Forth, amateur radio operators are largely responsible for many of the "Internet crowd" technologies. Wireless Internet (I was doing that in 1990), satellite tv, "cell" phones, etc. were all largely based on amateur radio technologies. Amateur radio is really a cutting edge scientific and technical discipline.

Fifth, and probably most important, BPL may sound like an excellent idea; but the telecom industry promised broadband access via standard telephone and digital line technologies to most people in the US by 2006 as part of the mega merger process in the 1980s and 1990s. In exchange for creating mega-monopolies, the telcos promised to provide broadband services. The telcos, however, have heavily lobbied Congress and state governments to conveniently "forget" this little deal because it is now "too expensive." If the telcos would be held to their agreements, poor technologies like BPL would not be needed. Think about it: do you really want your Internet connections from a high voltage/amperage power line? Contact your Congressperson and state representatives and ask why the telcos have not lived up to the commitments.

I guess I am just disappointed that a number of /.ers are attacking amateur radio rather than seeking more information about the service. "Hams" are not just ten old guys sitting around using "CBs" to talk in some antiquated manner or a bunch of old guys hunched over a telegraph key slowly tapping out morse code. Amateur radio is also not just an "emergency" service -- although some amateur radio operators do participate in emergency communications. You would be amazed at what amateur radio has to offer -- GPS location services, radio/Internet interconnects, satellite communications, digital communications, microwave projects, rural Internet, and other bleeding edge projects. Many of these projects will become standard /.er fair in five or ten years.

Sorry to get on my soap box.

Not just hams would be effected

[RocketScientist]

Check this out..

There's a link there for the PDF of the spectrum allocation. Pretty much "DC to Daylight". The piece that BPL is going to destroy covers a lot of Ham allocations. But it also covers things like:
Maritime Mobile
Aeronautical Mobile
Space Research
Standard Time Signals
Shortwave Broadcast
Radio Astronomy
Land Mobile
Fixed-station

The amateur service is a very small part of the spectrum below 30 Mhz. A lot of it is used for things like trans-oceanic flights, military and civilian mobile services, and the like.

I'm of two minds whether this will pass or not. Michael Powell, the FCC chair, hasn't made a good decision since he got into office, so I'm thinking this will go through because he's got the power companies all giving him blow jobs under the table. On the other hand, the FAA, NTIA, the military, and the shortwave broadcasters may get through to the FCC that they can't allow this, and maybe somebody will get that lamebrain Powell to do something right.

Re:Where's the problem??

[geekoid]

please think.

Sure, the disaster area has no power, but what about the people you need to recieve you?

What benefits? no AM? no emergency services?(other emergency services as well as ham), Noise on non properly shield equipment(like most home electronic equipment)?
Now, what benefits of broadband are there? you can get email with dial-up, you can get IM with dial-up. clearly broadband is not a criticle need.

Don't confuse numbers of users with usefullness. Perhaps we should get rid of the firestaions, since they only help a small handfull of people?

Re:You called? Advanced Class, Right here :-)

[jnik]

I'll call you on that :) FCC abolished the sending test how long ago? Pre-1993, at any rate...as that's when my Advanced license dates from. You can still receive at 13WPM though (and the test was kinda weak in my opinion...the examiners were amazed at five minutes of solid copy. A one-minute requirement strikes me as barely workable). Get your extra. And hang onto your CSCE. I still have all of mine around here somewhere. As far as all these chumps complaining about hams and their "private playground"--yeesh. The REASON for the amateur service is that it's proven, in technological and social resources, to greatly enhance the commons. Same basic reason we have copyright protection--investing or limiting the public domain in the short term to enrich it in the long term. If you want to eliminate all ham bands, fine. Never use your cell phone again. Or TCP/IP (look up Phil Karn...some of us know him as KA9Q). Heck, wireless networking owes a lot to TAPR and other amateur experimenters. Avoid anything using the microwaves--hams developed the technology to make them accessible. Oh, you mean you want unlicensed usage? Fine. Plenty of bands for that. The ELF area, for example. Or 49MHz. You know why 49MHz, 900MHz, all those other unlicensed bands are shitholes? Because they're unlicensed. There's no responsibility for maintaining equipment or proper operating procedure. Nothing keeping the corporations off there. The airwaves are a public resource. Ham bands are a publicly-available way to use them. Just like accessing other public resources may require licensing (such as operating a motor vehicle on the public roads), ham bands require licenses. That doesn't make them some sort of "exclusive club."

Re:Coincadence...

[Ashtead]

Even if the BPL goes out in an area during a disaster, it would still affect reception in other areas. And the way the signals at some of these frequencies propagate may result in BPL interference from far away.

Then there is possible international issues as the ionosphere doesn't obey any kinds of national borders when propagating signals. What if a US BPL installation interferes with radio communication in an emergency in China?

Now on to your question. All kinds of overhead transmission wires can and will act as long-wire antennas and will spread these signals around. Underground cables could be less radiating, depending on what configuration they are. Thus, I would expect a 3-core cable which is three conductors twisted like a rope to contain the signals better than three individual one-core cables laid side by side. However, once these cables emerge and connect to the wiring in your house, all bets are off. I would expect the house wiring to be the biggest radiator in suburban areas where the grid is underground.

Note that "long" in this context means longer than the wavelength of the signals. For a wideband signal like BPL, the shortest wavelengths are on the order of 2 meters, (7 ft)so any piece of wire longer than about 1/4 of this can radiate some of this signal. The longer the wire, the better the radiator and the more signal is emitted and interferes. The low frequency end of the BPL spectrum has wavelengths on the order of 300 meters or 1000 feet, so even a little neighborhood-sized power spur line could radiate a lot.

Considering that the power distribution network is designed for 50 Hz or 60 Hz and most components were either designed to block high frequencies or never had any specs for these high frequencies, there could be a lot of rework needed.

Just look at a commonly seen energy meter for example; an electromechanical meter of the kind counting your consumed kilowatt-hours. This is basically a big series inductor, which does a good job of blocking these high frequency signals. So every house may need some kind of RF meter bypass or at least the old electromechanical meters may need to be replaced. Everywhere.

Stringing fibers along the power-line rights of way would be a much better way of distributing these data signals. It might even be less expensive than trying to pass high frequency signals through devices handling high voltages. Some kind of bridge for the "last mile" appears to be necessary anyways.