Slashdot Mirror
Too Much Tech Diminishes Work Relationships?
Lansdowne writes "The Seattle Times has an article today on Tim Sanders, a Yahoo exec who claims too much technology may be bad for your health. According to Sanders, small groups of engineers who went to completely electronic communication in their workgroups became 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'"
'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.' in other words, nothing changed
...I learned from Maxis' The Sims. If your or your Sim's social bar drops too low, bad things happen.
Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
man: no entry for woman in the manual.
"Qua!?"
My computer talks to me...
Isn't that right sweetie?
Perhaps the "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people" are simply attracted to technology, and not necessary a product of it...?
Remember: If you buy anything from spammers, you have a small penis.
I don't think that being "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people" is caused by the electronics. We're just drawn to the stuff BECAUSE we're very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant Engineering student.
First off, the experiment involves the fast reduction of quantity of several social relationships. Socialization is habit-forming. You could get the same effect from taking a small group of pot smokers and switching them to tobacco. Second off, the conclusion is fallacious. The problem supposedly demonstrated is not so much too much technology as too little socialization, though for my money, the problem is the sudden removal of habit-forming face-to-face interpersonal communcication.
machines are going to take over the world ... so those anti-social rejects are just laying the groundwork for their future girlfriends...
I have noticed that as I have done most of my work remote this last year (remote desktop technologies instead of onsite visits, IM and e-mail instead of phone discussions) that I have become a surly bugger.
It has started to carry into my regular life: people are interruptions not whatever they used to be...
And here I am posting to slash.
Sig under construction since 1998.
Maybe some people dont want to have to interact socially, and messaging your colleague from five feet away certainly severs all social ties. And email is now such an important part of our lives that we use it to exchange information almost as much as we talk face to face. Without email, a good part of the business of any company would immediately be halted due to lack of communication.
Using instant messaging also a more convenient and faster way to interact, although it will never measure up to a real conversation.
to explain why this article is complete nonsense but I'm too depressed, feel the world is against me and I really dont feel like talking to anyone. Plus I just got a new laptop to play with.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
"He began to have relationship difficulties at work because he used e-mail, at one point, to communicate everything to his employees, be it good or bad."
This quote from the article makes me wonder whether we're reading too much into it. This is someone who replaced face to face communication with his employees. That's not a problem with technology: that's him being irrespsonsible.
I think (hope) that we all know there's a time and place for technology. Things like employee appraisals and agreeing big pieces of work should really be done face to face.
The question that we thought was being answered was whether having more technological gadgets would create problems for people in themselves?
I'm in the camp who believe that technology actually improves relationships when used appropriately, rather than damages him.
Friends overseas? It's a shame they're not here, but I can use ICQ to keep in touch with them.
Feel like a drink? I can call around my friends to see who's around.
Really want the obnoxious sex-mad guy to come? Just snap a photo/video of the cute girl next to you and he'll be along in a jiffy.
People can do more, in less time, with more people.
Everyone wins. Especially the communications companies.
This is a textbook example of FUD.
Adults need to be responsible for their lives. Yeah, sounds obvious but apparently people are still lost on this point.
Everything has a time and a place. Keep everything in its time and place and keeping your sanity is easy. Get sunshine. Go to the beach. If that's not possible, try a municipal pool.
Life isn't complicated. People in this article want to make it complicated because at some point along the way, they'll profit.
If you stay up until sunrise, down gallons of caffeine and live in chat rooms then that's your decision. The consequences might be depression and isolation. Those who don't like it need to change the variables in their life program.
Laws are for people with no friends.
lonely - certainly, since they get less face-to-face contact ;)
depressed - maybe, especially if they're feeling lonely
negative - Windows desktops will do that to you, they've done it to me
anti-social - it helps us be lazy and stay within our small team
brilliant - makes them brilliant? I doubt that. You're either brilliant or you're not. Modes of communication can't change that.
Developers: We can use your help.
very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people
Proof that contact with the masses dumbs you down. ^_^
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
I work at a large web hosting company. We got a lot of bright people working for us that most of soceity would see as introverted. We got people locked away in secure rooms for most of their shift, etc - the human part is what makes working there a good thing. We are a very social company in the hallways, meeting areas, etc. Most people (including myself) say that they have very good friends at work, but few outside its walls. To a varying degree, we are a big 400 person family where I work - I think people (ok, myself) need to have the human interaction in order to maintain themselves. Technology roxxors, but there needs to be people to talk to, even if it is anime or what level your 3rd edition Ranger is.
Eat recycled food - it's good for the environment, and OK for you.
at all, damn users can't leave well enough alone, or me. Stop bothering me, if i want to talk to you i'll remove your email address from my spam filter.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
Why is it hard to remember?
Focusing your life around *anything* for long periods of time such that you exclude everything that used to keep you healthy and happy is not going to be good for you.
Complexity Happens
Dubya: "Those techies aren't lonely, they just have no one to talk to, and speak with."
MoFscker
I've always been a firm believer that if I wasn't as technologically compotent as I am, I'd probably be a much happier person in general. But you can't unlearn, and I've come to realize that I'd rather be aware of technology than let it overleap me.
- tristan
You know, when I started my career in IT, I was the happy helpful SysAdmin. I would cheerfully respond to request after request because I loved helping my fellow employees have a positive computing experience.
I never understood why people always thought SysAdmins were grumpy and belligerent.
However, now after a decade of thankless shit-catching, I am that grumpy and belligerent SysAdmin who believes that users are a fucking plague of idiots set loose in Biblical proportions upon my otherwise Utopian computer networks.
Comments such as "your message titled 'Virus Warning - Happy New Year' had the word 'Virus' in it, so I deleted it to be safe, but then I opened the next one that had an attachment called 'Happy New Year'. Now my computer doesn't work right..." (honest-to-God true story) have made me tend to side with the machines while watching such movies as "Terminator" and "Matrix", and to create tools named for the Borg which enforce draconian administration of my networks.
Are we anti-social because of the machines, or because people are morons?
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'"
Wow, I can become brilliant.
As many people have already pointed out, there is simply a correlation between technology and unhappy, depressed, anti-social geniuses. This is the easiest mistake a person can make when looking at correlations.
As any beginning psychology student can (should) tell you is that a correlation does not indicate a cause and effect. So, from this, we see that unhappy, depressed, anti-social geniuses use a lot of technology. We have a strong positive correlation between technology and depressed geniuses. It could be that technology causes it, or it could be that depressed geniuses like technology, or it could just be a coincidence.
In order figure out which it is, experiments need to be performed. Observation alone cannot figure this out.
People have been criticising new technology for a long time.
For example, about 150 years ago, someone said how young women should not ride bicycles because it made them less attractive, had bad effects on their health & fertility and gave them grumpy looking faces.
More recently, it was forecast that telephones would cause people to loose touch with their friends and family. ffs Many people here only contact their family on the phone.
Up to the present, they said that children who played with their PC and consoles would be less able and mentally active than children who didn't. Then they realised that the kids who "didn't" were all on the couch watching TV. Any kid who was online or playing games was actually using their brain.
Conclusion?
People have been moaning about new ideas, music and technology for a very long time. I'm sure Aristotle had something to say on the matter and if his statement was put into a modern paper, nobody would notice. (if it was translated first!)
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
Seriouslly if it weren't for my son I would just as well spend my whole life online. I'm tired of interfacing with mundane's. The only people I can stand are other techies.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
I work from home. My coworker just IM'd me this link. You think they're trying to tell me something?
"The study, which monitored the mental-health changes of 25,000 Japanese high-tech workers over three years, found that employees who worked five hours or more in front of a computer were more prone to depression and anxiety."
Yes, it's true. If you spend several hours at a computer doing menial work that you hate, overseen by a boss you hate (and vice-versa) then you'll most likely become bitter, anxiety ridden and depressed.
On the other hand, I spend several hours a day sitting at a computer doing a job that I love and I'm not the least bit depressed. In fact, I look forward to going to work every day.
People had lousy jobs that sucked and made them depressed long before computers were invented. Let's quit blaming computers for all of society's ills.
I think the problem here is that workers who work alone (with the help of a computer) become lonely. Makes sense. But that is a problem with the surroundings, not with the computer.
I work at the university, couple of hours per day at a computer. Still, the co-workes and I have lunch together, take the time off to grab a coffee, or just wander over into the room next door to have a chat.
So if you feel lonely/depressed, try to work with a group of people (you like - that, of course, is a prerequisite), close to them, maybe in the same room.
And... maybe... don't reload the Slashdot page every minute! (SCNR)
My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.
I'm already lonely, depressed, negative, and anti-social, but now i can become brilliant too! Sign me up!
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
I'm certainly not going to be one of those folks who says an immediate 'yes' or 'no' to the question of technology turning us into things that we all know we're perfectly capable of without technology, but here is a different spin from some of the comments I've been reading:
(Keep in mind this is based on personal experiences)
- Many people do not own a landline phone unless they have ADSL.
- Many people do not use email anymore due to spam.
- Many people do not use IMs as they are far too many in number, and again have the spam issue.
This means they are often unavailable to a real-time communications, potentially emergency communications.
Some people take it to extremes, avoiding people by not using the methods they know their friends or family use, or by leaving everything to voicemail/email/IMs and simply ignoring messages. It's amazingly easy to ignore people when you have caller ID on your phones too.
Of those who do stay connected (often via every means possible), here are some behaviors I've noticed:
- Many people are getting obsessive about checking email, how much they're getting, and how they can get more without subscribing to mailing lists.
- Talking on the cellphone during obviously inappropriate and/or plain dangerous activities.
- Leaving their status as 'online' on all IMs to maybe increase the chance somebody wants to talk.
- Gotta have a landline, cellphone, PDA, MP3-man, [insert nifty new devices here].
I think more than anything, the current state of technology and communication is forcing the shy folks into hiding, and giving an amazing opportunity for all the people (worthy or not) of all that extra exposure to expose whatever it is they want to.
You're going to get morons. You're going to get brilliant individuals. And their profession really doesn't matter any more than it used to, the pace of life and the introduction of technology is simply accelerating people's reactions too.
This may seem obvious, but think about it. If you work remotely, is it that working remotely sucks or that the one real jerk you have to work with is empowered by IM and email to be even a greater jerk than he would normally be. Even real, genuine idiots and losers have no guts and will rarely treat you horribly to your face. But add some remoteness and the sense of safety that comes with email or IM, and you have a horrible working situation.
Sure, the tech can be isolating if you don't have any sense of balance. But what makes it intolerable and a real source of stress are these jerks. Yes, they would still be a jackass in person, but deep down you know they wouldn't have the guts to say what they are saying in email to your face.
Is it technology's fault? No. These people are jerks no matter what--they just use the technology that the rest of us enjoy to be even greater jerks. They are the genuine trolls and the losers who infest USENET--except they act this way in real life. They are everywhere you go--they just are more bold when they can hide behind a computer.
"Doubt your doubts and believe your beliefs." -- Switchfoot, Ode to Chin
Or then again perhaps it[IT] allows people who may not be comfortable talking face to face the opportunity to avoid face to face contact precisely when it is most needed.
I would find it very easy in my job to communicate entirely by email and IM, but I've found that a kind of "chinese whisper" effect takes hold and more uncertainty is introduced than would be the case in a face to face conversation. So I force myself to get out of my chair. Apparently there are good ergonomic side-effects to this too...
The desire to understand the world and the desire to reform it are the two great engines of progress -- Bertrand Russell
What shall we use...To fill...the empty... spaces...Where...we used...to talk?
For some it's drugs, for others booze....and yet for others gadgets. They're always there for you and they never question you.
Rather then develop any sort of lasting personal relationships, a person can just continuely obsess about that new gadget you want. Once i get that new wireless phone/pda, I'll finally be cool; I'll finally be happy.
-Chris
--an unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys--
since when are slashdot users brilliant?
If I want you to drop everything and service me, I am superior.
If I am talking and you are writing, I am superior. Think old time boss and secretary. Boss talks, secretary takes dictation.
Dominance games are usually the worst means of communicating anything other than who is dominant.
Suppose a person who has an emotional need
to establish dominance over others also likes tech toys? There are lots of these people. They buy the latest toy just because it is the latest toy. They have an emotional need to have something before other people have it.
But those toys don't give them the dominance feedback that they also need. They play with their toys and the discover there is something missing that the toys aren't providing.
Get therapy. Find out why you want the newest toys. Find out why using them makes you feel "isolated" and "alone".
I'll send email to someone sitting right next to me. But only if I think he's busy on a project and wouldn't like to be interrupted or if I can more clearly express myself in an email (or to cover my ass by having a digital record).
This isn't about technology. This is about people interacting with other people.
I think different people have markedly different experiences. My guess is that surrounding oneself with technology (or any other collection of inanimate objects) can exacerbate an already existing condition in people.
Sit down and let me tell you a tale. I was sexually abused as a kid, so was at high risk for depression (abuse can be nasty) and insulating myself from the world (I learned, mistakenly, that the world was too dangerous). Once I discovered computers, I found an ideal way to escape from the world: these things were almost infinitely interesting (new stuff is being developed all the time), and I didn't have to deal with that scary thing we call "the world". (Of course, I didn't realize at the time that that was one of my motives.) Whee! What a great hobby!
Now, years later, I'm trying to reconnect myself with the real world after going through a years-long episode of depression. It's not easy, and it's kinda frightening. But I notice that every time I start burrowing myself in my computery hobby, I'm always more depressed and disconnected from the world.
I realize that my experience may be different from other people's, but I just wanted to illustrate that a predisposition to depression can be "turned on" by heavy computer use.
Standing at the very edge of my imagination, I peered into the inky void and realised -- I couldn't think up a new sig.
I went through the article but could not but help noticing that it relied on "anecdotal" and not "scientific" evidence. For example were there any controlled experiments between users and non users of technology ? Were there historical comparisons under different economical conditions ?
People have problems with technology because they dont learn how to use it or what to use it for before using it. For example on getting a cellphone lots of people try to "overuse" them atleast during the initial period because of all the hype about being "always in touch".
Personally I have found that going all electronic has helped me a lot in taking out stress from work relationships. I tend to be free from personal influences and biases and also it helps foster accountability.
Also, it does not mean that I never talk to my coworkers or boss. Every week we play a new "outdoor game" and discover quite a few unique things about each other.
I think most of the problems described by the author is because of the "i got it so i have to use it" mindset. Get that out of the system. Just because we have a new fancy gizmo does not in itself mean that you have to use it fulltime and get you "high" ASAP.
'[blah], [blah], [blah], [blah], brilliant people.' Sounds good to me.
I've prefer e-mail for communication in work because it affords me the opportunity to think twice or even thrice before "saying" anything. Keeps me out of trouble. Also, co-workers can't deny receiving data from me if I have the sent mail receipt and an exact transcript of what I sent and when I sent it.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/