New Linux-based PDA due September

Bill Kendrick writes "LinuxDevices.com has a preview of a new Linux-based PDA due out next month. Some of you might recognize the form-factor; it's from Softfield, the folks who ended up with the rights to the first commercial Linux-based PDA, the black-and-white, MIPs-based Agenda VR3. Softfield's new model, the MX-7, sports a 200MHz CPU, full-color 240x320 display, 32MB Flash and 64MB RAM, an SD card slot, and Trolltech's Qtopia environment. All for $299 USD."

Comments

Hmm...

[aftk2]

They must not have gotten the memo.

Wondering

[stratjakt]

Could linux based PDAs be the toe-in-the-door for some real commercial game development for linux? Or productivity and other such apps?

I mean I see major commercial titles hitting Palms and WinCE, if some ported to linux based PDAs, it might snowball into linux, well (get ready to mod me down, zealots), doing something useful for me besides routing packets to my Windows machines and Xbox.

The agenda was nice but the Zaurus is useful

[SWroclawski]

I had an Agenda and I have a Zarus.

The key to the Zaurus are the two expansion slots, the keyboard, and the fact it runs OpenZaurus.

It looks like the new Softfield PDA will have the SD slot (less useful than CompactFlash) and MAY in time be able to run OpenZaurs.

If it does, it will be a useful device, but you can already pick up a Sharp Zaurus 5500 for less than $300 (I paid about $280 for mine)

- Serge Wroclawski

Re:The agenda was nice but the Zaurus is useful

[RevAaron]

Heck, I got my SL-5500 for $180.

And sold it a month later for $170. The SL-5500 is pretty much crap compared to almost any other PDA. I'd rather have a mono Newton or Psion screen than the pitiful excuse for a color screen that is found on the SL-5500. Let's pray to any and all gods that the screen on this MX-7 isn't as bad...

I now have a Zaurus C760- it's a great platform for running Squeak Smalltalk and Dynapad, especially with its 640x480 screen, but as a PDA, the entire Zaurus line is exteremely lacking.

Anyone know how fast this particular CPU is compared to a 206 MHz StrongARM? If it's any slower than the 206 MHz StrongARM SA-1100 (or the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale, which is about the same speed), it'll suck to run Qtopia and its apps on it. Qtopia is *slow*, especially on PDAs with the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale (SL-5600, SL-C700) or 206 MHz StrongARM (SL-5000D, SL-5500), but it's still kind of sad on the fast 400 MHz XScale PXA255 CPUs in the SL-C750 and SL-C760. You'd think you were using OS X 10.1 on a 400 MHz G3 sometimes...

Hey, read the article- CF (as well as bluetooth and a camera) will be an option. Yeah, more money spent, but at least there is the potential.

My new plan

[SirLantos]

Hmmmm....
1. Find something non-Linux based
2. Make a linux version.
3. ???
4. Profit


SirLantos

syncing

[net_bh]

Of all the Linux PDAs out there has anybody been successful with syncing them to Linux apps and Windows apps without any pain?

I own a Sharp Zaurus 5500, and I am not impressed with its syncing prowess. Luckily, I know enough to back up the whole PDA using 'scp', but that doesnt go for Joe and Jane.

I hope Multisync does on to become the defacto tool for synchronizing all kinds of handhelds, mobiles with email, calendar, address books, etc.

As a recent pocket pc purchaser.....

[clifgriffin]

This thing would never have caught my eye when I was searching for a PDA.

It looks atrocious (at this point) and doesn't have near the specs dell offers for the same price.

The fact that it's "linux based" doesn't send me into "I want one!" orgasms.

Too expensive...

[thefoobar]

$299 + SCO license = Too expensive!

Please please please

[1010011010]

... sync with iSync, and sync with something on Linux.

I wonder if "Opie" will make an appearance in commercial hardware anytime soon... it started as a fork of the QTopia environment, and is coming along nicely. It would be really cool to have Opie become the standard palmtop environment.

Linux PDAs really needs GPS support

[jacken]

The only killer app I have seen so far on PDAs except the basic PIM stuff is GPS navigation. Is there any navigation software available for linux PDA? And Im not talking about raster map software, but vector based maps.

Re:Needs two slots...

[chill]

Okay, partial foot in mouth...

It seems it has a 140-pin expansion slot for other peripherals, like a CF adaptor, etc. Sounds like the "jacket" option of some iPaq models.

Qtopia doesn't cut it

[penguin7of9]

I have a Sharp Zaurus, and I think Qtopia just doesn't cut it.

Sure, it looks pretty nice and it has most of the functionality you might want in a PDA, but it is still significantly worse than either Palm or PPC. Some of the problems include badly thought out user interaction, wasteful use of the limited screen real estate (probably a result of being based on an adaptation of a desktop toolkit), and pretty excessive resource consumption by Qt/Embedded. And there is far less software available for Qtopia than for either Palm or PPC. If you want good PDA functionality, get a Palm.

On the other hand, as a Linux PDA for vertical apps, Qtopia-based PDAs also fall short: you are limited to the Qt toolkit and all the graphics and UI code from existing Linux apps require complete rewrites. You can't use any of the open source GUI tools you are likely used to (Tcl/Tk, Python/Gtk+, etc.). And if you want to write commercial apps, it's going to cost you (you can do commercial Palm development for free).

Linux PDAs will keep failing until their makers recognize that it is futile to compete with Palm and PPC head-on. Linux PDAs can thrive in the niche of providing portable little Linux machines, but that means not limiting the machines to running just a single GUI toolkit.

Re:Qtopia doesn't cut it

[toganet]

Remember, though, that the Zaurus _is not_ and PDA -- it is a PMT, or "Personal Mobile Tool".

Semantic distinction or SHARP marketing garbage? A little of both -- but indicative of SHARP's awareness of the problem you mentioned or taking on other PDA's in their own segment.

I use my Zaurus as a mini-workstation and network troubleshooting tool. And to play games, browse the web, take notes, SSH into servers....

For PDA stuff, I use a PDA

Re:Qtopia doesn't cut it

[RevAaron]

Some of the problems include badly thought out user interaction, wasteful use of the limited screen real estate (probably a result of being based on an adaptation of a desktop toolkit), and pretty excessive resource consumption by Qt/Embedded.

Indeed. This is true from both the user perspective as well as the developers- Qt/Embedded wasn't designed for use on PDAs, and it shows. I am talking about the API, not the way things look and feel, although that is certainly an issue as well. Qt/E was designed for a system with a mouse like its desktop counterpart, rather than for a stylus based system. This wouldn't be a big deal if TrollTech made the neccesary adaptations and changes to make for a system that worked well on both kinds of systems (there are Qt/E systems with mice and not touchscreens).

For instance, Qtopia has a simple character recognition system in which you write in a little box, ala Graffiti 1 or the Character/Block Recognizer in PocketPC. Developers have wanted to create a new input method that allows one to write letters anywhere on the screen, perhaps using the same engine, but not making you write in a little box. But nope, it appears to be next to impossible within the confines of Qtopia and Qt/Embedded due to the way the event loop works. This is just one example, but these things add up, painting a picture of an embedded GUI toolkit that really doesn't make much sense on a PDA.

And Qtopia/Linux does use an excessive amount of resources. For one, it's quite slow.

I have a Zaurus SL-C760. I just did some timing tests for launching applications, here are my numbers:

Calendar: 6 sec
Opera 6: 6 sec
Netfront 3: 4 sec
Hancom Word: 3 sec
Simple Calculator: 3 sec

And for comparison, I launched analogous apps on an iPAQ 3650. Mind you, the iPAQ has half of the RAM and about half of the CPU power as the C760.

Calendar, Word, PocketIE, Clock, Calculator: all > 1 sec

One way to get around the slowness of app launching on the Zaurus is a feature called "fast load." Basically, the system loads the application into memory and keeps it resident, even when you quit it. When you tap the app it appears to open, and the icon shows up in the taskbar. If an app has "fast loading" turned on, launching time is pretty similar to the PocketPC. Of course, for each app you have "fast loading" turned on, it uses up a MB or more, depending on the app. Turning on fast loading for Calendar uses 1.2 MB of RAM.

As far as memory requirements, the Linux+Qtopia combo uses up a pretty fair amount. On a fresh boot of my C760, with no applications in "Fast load" mode, 16 MB of RAM is used up. No application loaded. On a fresh boot on the iPAQ, WinCE is using up 3 MB.

As far as vertical apps, you may not be able to run GTK+ or Tk apps within the world of Qtopia, you can run X11 and these apps if you want. It negates any advantage percieved for Qtopia, but it's still an option. Then again, you can also run Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk, X11 and other apps on WinCE without having to go outside the WinCE environment, so it depends on what your needs are.

The "Familiar" Linux distro and the Yopy PDA both use X11 and are thusly not limited to only one GUI toolkit. I myself would rather have one main GUI toolkit, but having options is always good. For me, consistency is more important, but even on WinCE/PocketPC- which is seen as a single toolkit environment can be host to other toolkits as long as someone does the port.

Perhaps

[PigeonGB]

But there is plenty available for Linux Game Development.

garagegames.com provides the Torque Engine for only $100 a programmer. A number of quality games already exist for free or (more likely) as shareware at their site.

There are different libraries like PLIB, which as I remember was used for Tux Kart and other games.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be active websites for the community of GNU/Linux game developers. Usually the mailing lists are more active though. The websites look defunct which may make people think that nothing is happening.

As for productivity, yes, it is possible that more Linux-based PDAs will make people want to work on GnuCash and other such projects that are needed for productivity. I think that it might be a catch-22 in that demand for such apps would fuel development but development requires demand...The difference here is that if the hardware developers would hire programmers to actually MAKE the software in the first place, it would solve the problem.

Maybe not the most direct answer, but it is my $.02

Re:Perhaps

[Harbinjer]

Agreed,
Agreed,
Agreed,

Wrong! PC gaming isn't dying! Have you seen counterstrike? Biggest online PC game out there. Biggest tournaments. How many people out there have won thousands of dollars on console games?

Graphics don't make a game, but they make a good one better. And with Doom 3 and half-life 2, PC games will get a huge boost in graphics and environment soon.

They may be diverging. Strategy games and 1st Person shooters are best on PC. As are flight sims. The only games that I think are completely better on consoles are fighers like Tekkan, and Dance Dance Revolution(but I have yet to check out pyDance for Linux). Otherwise PC's are equal or better I think.

Once bitten twice shy

[CountDown]

Idunno. I have a VR3d. My second one(broke the first one). A lot of software was developed for the VR3 and things were going great, but the hardware just wasn't up to snuff. Broken screens, buttons, lids, and the occasional projectile stylus were more than the developer community could stand.

This new one looks too much like the old one. A revamped power system, more memory, expandability, and the reduction of buttons are all improvements, but the biggest problem with the VR3 was the screen.I will not buy the newest linux-based PDA until I see improvements to the case. The days when I would buy a block of wood with a penguin on it have passed.

I also have an IPAQ 3150(running Familiar Linux) and a Zaurus SL5000d. The Zaurus is my favorite. Native Linux, expandability, and durability seem to be its strong points.

Re:FPU?

[kyllikki]

Historicaly when Acorn first created the ARM CPU even X86 had the 387, however as time went on and Acorn split off ARM they did develop a floating point co-processor (early ARMS had the co-processor bus exposed) the FPA10 and FPA11. Unfortunately these were not very popular and the emulated maths routines (done with unknown instruction aborts) were an adequate solution for most users.
The only SOC device that *ever* had Floating point hardware was the 7500FE (99ukp dev board available from http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB7500ATX) this device can, even now, outstrip a 600Mhz XScale performing FPU operations.
It would seem that the reason ARM CPUs do not usualy have a FPU is purely because of cost, emulating FP operations seems to be fast enough that most of the time the extra cost of the FPU simply is not justified.