New Linux-based PDA due September

Bill Kendrick writes "LinuxDevices.com has a preview of a new Linux-based PDA due out next month. Some of you might recognize the form-factor; it's from Softfield, the folks who ended up with the rights to the first commercial Linux-based PDA, the black-and-white, MIPs-based Agenda VR3. Softfield's new model, the MX-7, sports a 200MHz CPU, full-color 240x320 display, 32MB Flash and 64MB RAM, an SD card slot, and Trolltech's Qtopia environment. All for $299 USD."

Comments

Hmm...

[aftk2]

They must not have gotten the memo.

Not bad at $300

[mao che minh]

Not bad at $300, but it sorely needs an MP3 player (native) and some good games. Otherwise, a Palm powered PDA would be a hell of a lot more useful.

What about Ogg?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it doesn't run Ogg then can we actually say it will be useful? (tongue removed from cheek)

Wondering

[stratjakt]

Could linux based PDAs be the toe-in-the-door for some real commercial game development for linux? Or productivity and other such apps?

I mean I see major commercial titles hitting Palms and WinCE, if some ported to linux based PDAs, it might snowball into linux, well (get ready to mod me down, zealots), doing something useful for me besides routing packets to my Windows machines and Xbox.

Re:Wondering

[Papa Legba]

but linux already has the perfect PDA game. I think Nethack would run beautifully on this device. The only problem is that I would get even less done. Nethack on this PDA with a nice tileset may very well be a must have killer app.

Re:Wondering

[Trelane]

They have it on the Z. Check the zaurus.com feeds (docs.zaurus.com/feed) for qpe-nethack

The agenda was nice but the Zaurus is useful

[SWroclawski]

I had an Agenda and I have a Zarus.

The key to the Zaurus are the two expansion slots, the keyboard, and the fact it runs OpenZaurus.

It looks like the new Softfield PDA will have the SD slot (less useful than CompactFlash) and MAY in time be able to run OpenZaurs.

If it does, it will be a useful device, but you can already pick up a Sharp Zaurus 5500 for less than $300 (I paid about $280 for mine)

- Serge Wroclawski

Re:The agenda was nice but the Zaurus is useful

[RevAaron]

Heck, I got my SL-5500 for $180.

And sold it a month later for $170. The SL-5500 is pretty much crap compared to almost any other PDA. I'd rather have a mono Newton or Psion screen than the pitiful excuse for a color screen that is found on the SL-5500. Let's pray to any and all gods that the screen on this MX-7 isn't as bad...

I now have a Zaurus C760- it's a great platform for running Squeak Smalltalk and Dynapad, especially with its 640x480 screen, but as a PDA, the entire Zaurus line is exteremely lacking.

Anyone know how fast this particular CPU is compared to a 206 MHz StrongARM? If it's any slower than the 206 MHz StrongARM SA-1100 (or the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale, which is about the same speed), it'll suck to run Qtopia and its apps on it. Qtopia is *slow*, especially on PDAs with the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale (SL-5600, SL-C700) or 206 MHz StrongARM (SL-5000D, SL-5500), but it's still kind of sad on the fast 400 MHz XScale PXA255 CPUs in the SL-C750 and SL-C760. You'd think you were using OS X 10.1 on a 400 MHz G3 sometimes...

Hey, read the article- CF (as well as bluetooth and a camera) will be an option. Yeah, more money spent, but at least there is the potential.

My new plan

[SirLantos]

Hmmmm....
1. Find something non-Linux based
2. Make a linux version.
3. ???
4. Profit


SirLantos

Re:My new plan

[jargoone]

More like:
1. Find something non-Linux based.
2. Make an overpriced Linux version.
3. Watch everybody rave about it on /.
4. ???
5. Watch as established competitors outsell new Linux version.

Sad but true, at least at the beginning. Any PDA costing over $200 has a color screen and an mp3 player these days.

syncing

[net_bh]

Of all the Linux PDAs out there has anybody been successful with syncing them to Linux apps and Windows apps without any pain?

I own a Sharp Zaurus 5500, and I am not impressed with its syncing prowess. Luckily, I know enough to back up the whole PDA using 'scp', but that doesnt go for Joe and Jane.

I hope Multisync does on to become the defacto tool for synchronizing all kinds of handhelds, mobiles with email, calendar, address books, etc.

Needs two slots...

[chill]

One for data storage expansion, one for peripherals.

Think: camera & place to store pictures; WiFi card & place to store downloaded files.

Other than that, seems like YALP (yet another Linux PDA). Not that we couldn't use more of them...

Re:Needs two slots...

[chill]

Okay, partial foot in mouth...

It seems it has a 140-pin expansion slot for other peripherals, like a CF adaptor, etc. Sounds like the "jacket" option of some iPaq models.

As a recent pocket pc purchaser.....

[clifgriffin]

This thing would never have caught my eye when I was searching for a PDA.

It looks atrocious (at this point) and doesn't have near the specs dell offers for the same price.

The fact that it's "linux based" doesn't send me into "I want one!" orgasms.

Re:As a recent pocket pc purchaser.....

[stratjakt]

Dude,

Its Free.

Free as in 300 bucks!

People pay twice as much for half the machine if it runs OSX, why not transfer that to the PDA market?

What you need is a blitz marketing campaign with testimonials from tech-savvy individuals like tony hawk and ellen feiss.

Re:As a recent pocket pc purchaser.....

[penguin7of9]

It looks atrocious (at this point) and doesn't have near the specs dell offers for the same price.

Actually, if it's similar to the old VR3, the hardware design is really nice: the rounded corners make it easy to carry around, the screen protector works great, and the device is quite small.

Palm or PPC hardware looks flashier and more high-tech, but hardware like the VR3 is more usable.

Too expensive...

[thefoobar]

$299 + SCO license = Too expensive!

Please please please

[1010011010]

... sync with iSync, and sync with something on Linux.

I wonder if "Opie" will make an appearance in commercial hardware anytime soon... it started as a fork of the QTopia environment, and is coming along nicely. It would be really cool to have Opie become the standard palmtop environment.

Linux PDAs really needs GPS support

[jacken]

The only killer app I have seen so far on PDAs except the basic PIM stuff is GPS navigation. Is there any navigation software available for linux PDA? And Im not talking about raster map software, but vector based maps.

FPU?

[OutRigged]

Can anyone tell me why none of these mobile ARM processors, such as the StrongARM, Xscale, etc, never seem to have floating point processing capabilities? Is it due to power contraints, or is it something else?

Re:FPU?

[kyllikki]

Historicaly when Acorn first created the ARM CPU even X86 had the 387, however as time went on and Acorn split off ARM they did develop a floating point co-processor (early ARMS had the co-processor bus exposed) the FPA10 and FPA11. Unfortunately these were not very popular and the emulated maths routines (done with unknown instruction aborts) were an adequate solution for most users.
The only SOC device that *ever* had Floating point hardware was the 7500FE (99ukp dev board available from http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB7500ATX) this device can, even now, outstrip a 600Mhz XScale performing FPU operations.
It would seem that the reason ARM CPUs do not usualy have a FPU is purely because of cost, emulating FP operations seems to be fast enough that most of the time the extra cost of the FPU simply is not justified.

$299+

[cperciva]

All for $299 USD

Only if you believe the marketing. More likely, it will be somewhere around $299 (PDA) + $699 (SCO license) + $50 (shipping and handling) + 15% (taxes) = $1205.20

Qtopia doesn't cut it

[penguin7of9]

I have a Sharp Zaurus, and I think Qtopia just doesn't cut it.

Sure, it looks pretty nice and it has most of the functionality you might want in a PDA, but it is still significantly worse than either Palm or PPC. Some of the problems include badly thought out user interaction, wasteful use of the limited screen real estate (probably a result of being based on an adaptation of a desktop toolkit), and pretty excessive resource consumption by Qt/Embedded. And there is far less software available for Qtopia than for either Palm or PPC. If you want good PDA functionality, get a Palm.

On the other hand, as a Linux PDA for vertical apps, Qtopia-based PDAs also fall short: you are limited to the Qt toolkit and all the graphics and UI code from existing Linux apps require complete rewrites. You can't use any of the open source GUI tools you are likely used to (Tcl/Tk, Python/Gtk+, etc.). And if you want to write commercial apps, it's going to cost you (you can do commercial Palm development for free).

Linux PDAs will keep failing until their makers recognize that it is futile to compete with Palm and PPC head-on. Linux PDAs can thrive in the niche of providing portable little Linux machines, but that means not limiting the machines to running just a single GUI toolkit.

Re:Qtopia doesn't cut it

[toganet]

Remember, though, that the Zaurus _is not_ and PDA -- it is a PMT, or "Personal Mobile Tool".

Semantic distinction or SHARP marketing garbage? A little of both -- but indicative of SHARP's awareness of the problem you mentioned or taking on other PDA's in their own segment.

I use my Zaurus as a mini-workstation and network troubleshooting tool. And to play games, browse the web, take notes, SSH into servers....

For PDA stuff, I use a PDA

Re:Qtopia doesn't cut it

[RevAaron]

Some of the problems include badly thought out user interaction, wasteful use of the limited screen real estate (probably a result of being based on an adaptation of a desktop toolkit), and pretty excessive resource consumption by Qt/Embedded.

Indeed. This is true from both the user perspective as well as the developers- Qt/Embedded wasn't designed for use on PDAs, and it shows. I am talking about the API, not the way things look and feel, although that is certainly an issue as well. Qt/E was designed for a system with a mouse like its desktop counterpart, rather than for a stylus based system. This wouldn't be a big deal if TrollTech made the neccesary adaptations and changes to make for a system that worked well on both kinds of systems (there are Qt/E systems with mice and not touchscreens).

For instance, Qtopia has a simple character recognition system in which you write in a little box, ala Graffiti 1 or the Character/Block Recognizer in PocketPC. Developers have wanted to create a new input method that allows one to write letters anywhere on the screen, perhaps using the same engine, but not making you write in a little box. But nope, it appears to be next to impossible within the confines of Qtopia and Qt/Embedded due to the way the event loop works. This is just one example, but these things add up, painting a picture of an embedded GUI toolkit that really doesn't make much sense on a PDA.

And Qtopia/Linux does use an excessive amount of resources. For one, it's quite slow.

I have a Zaurus SL-C760. I just did some timing tests for launching applications, here are my numbers:

Calendar: 6 sec
Opera 6: 6 sec
Netfront 3: 4 sec
Hancom Word: 3 sec
Simple Calculator: 3 sec

And for comparison, I launched analogous apps on an iPAQ 3650. Mind you, the iPAQ has half of the RAM and about half of the CPU power as the C760.

Calendar, Word, PocketIE, Clock, Calculator: all > 1 sec

One way to get around the slowness of app launching on the Zaurus is a feature called "fast load." Basically, the system loads the application into memory and keeps it resident, even when you quit it. When you tap the app it appears to open, and the icon shows up in the taskbar. If an app has "fast loading" turned on, launching time is pretty similar to the PocketPC. Of course, for each app you have "fast loading" turned on, it uses up a MB or more, depending on the app. Turning on fast loading for Calendar uses 1.2 MB of RAM.

As far as memory requirements, the Linux+Qtopia combo uses up a pretty fair amount. On a fresh boot of my C760, with no applications in "Fast load" mode, 16 MB of RAM is used up. No application loaded. On a fresh boot on the iPAQ, WinCE is using up 3 MB.

As far as vertical apps, you may not be able to run GTK+ or Tk apps within the world of Qtopia, you can run X11 and these apps if you want. It negates any advantage percieved for Qtopia, but it's still an option. Then again, you can also run Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk, X11 and other apps on WinCE without having to go outside the WinCE environment, so it depends on what your needs are.

The "Familiar" Linux distro and the Yopy PDA both use X11 and are thusly not limited to only one GUI toolkit. I myself would rather have one main GUI toolkit, but having options is always good. For me, consistency is more important, but even on WinCE/PocketPC- which is seen as a single toolkit environment can be host to other toolkits as long as someone does the port.

Re:Qtopia doesn't cut it

[joaorf]

The latest version of Qtopia comes with significant performance improvements. Read more: http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/00 000137.html

why are people willing to use a proprietary gui?

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont get it, why get a "linux" pda only to have a proprietary gui environment, this utterly missed the real power and freedom of linux. honestly, until these suckers run a nice free software gui i see no compelling reason to stop using palmos devices.

Actually

[phorm]

Linux is very nice for mobile devices in general, including/especially laptops. In desktops I think it tends to lag because of well, the games, and the whole mess around Wine, Hardware Acceleration, and proprietary/buggy 3d-accelerated hardware drivers. I *do* have it on my desktop at home, it just doesn't quite do everything my windows machine does (games, and the Nvidia driver craps out and locks if X gets shutdown in a way it doesn't like).

Now, on my laptop, I've got an iceWM XP-styled desktop with: MozillaFirebird, Evolution, SSH in my terminal, OpenOffice, gMerlin (VCD, Mpeg), and XMMS (mp3). Does everything I could want it to do. General computing is more lightweight than windows, though I do admit some things lag up a bit more too. I have a small windows partition to go online when I need dialup (particular lucent winmodem not supported yet), but otherwise it's always 'nix.

Now, on a PDA you may have games, but none of that 3d-accelerated high-end crap so you don't have to worry about weird drivers. A web-browser, organizer, and a bunch of open-source plugin software/games and I think it would do very nicely with linux.
Linux may not be ready for the multimedia/game desktop, but it could most definately be ready for PDA's and portables.

Perhaps

[PigeonGB]

But there is plenty available for Linux Game Development.

garagegames.com provides the Torque Engine for only $100 a programmer. A number of quality games already exist for free or (more likely) as shareware at their site.

There are different libraries like PLIB, which as I remember was used for Tux Kart and other games.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be active websites for the community of GNU/Linux game developers. Usually the mailing lists are more active though. The websites look defunct which may make people think that nothing is happening.

As for productivity, yes, it is possible that more Linux-based PDAs will make people want to work on GnuCash and other such projects that are needed for productivity. I think that it might be a catch-22 in that demand for such apps would fuel development but development requires demand...The difference here is that if the hardware developers would hire programmers to actually MAKE the software in the first place, it would solve the problem.

Maybe not the most direct answer, but it is my $.02

Re:Perhaps

[Harbinjer]

Agreed,
Agreed,
Agreed,

Wrong! PC gaming isn't dying! Have you seen counterstrike? Biggest online PC game out there. Biggest tournaments. How many people out there have won thousands of dollars on console games?

Graphics don't make a game, but they make a good one better. And with Doom 3 and half-life 2, PC games will get a huge boost in graphics and environment soon.

They may be diverging. Strategy games and 1st Person shooters are best on PC. As are flight sims. The only games that I think are completely better on consoles are fighers like Tekkan, and Dance Dance Revolution(but I have yet to check out pyDance for Linux). Otherwise PC's are equal or better I think.

Linux PDA? I don't get it

[PCM2]

Call me naive, but is there really a purpose in having a multi-tasking, Unix-like kernel ... in a PDA?

Open source PDA operating system, OK I can see that. But why Linux? Seems to me somebody's just riding on buzzword cache without any regard to whether there's really any demand for a device like this.

Re:Linux PDA? I don't get it

[fliplap]

I love my Zaurus because developing for it is free and easy. Plus I use it as a laptop replacement, many of the simple tasks I do through the day can be accomplished with the Z in my pocket instead of having to boot my laptop all the time. Yes, my use is a _very_ limited market.

I'm very glad it exists but I do question the marketing dude's approval of such a device. Moreover I question the engineers since almost anyone that actually owns a zaurus will agree with the fact that it is not a consumer level device. Its very rough around the edges and lacks refinement in many aspects. But for the geek...hands down, we have a wiener.

Re:Linux PDA? I don't get it

[Dr. Manhattan]

Call me naive, but is there really a purpose in having a multi-tasking, Unix-like kernel ... in a PDA?

I was looking into making a networked game for Palms. The OS just isn't designed for servers, or background tasks, or anything like that. A few simple tweaks would go a long way to providing that, but even then "it just isn't possible to write a robust server app using PalmOS".

This doesn't just affect games. This kind of limitation means you can't write generic apps that let a Palm reliably serve any kind of information. (Imagine a PDA that could be queried for location on a building's WiFi net, or accept emails, or whatever.)

WindowsCE and such can do this stuff, but it's not terribly efficient, and the Windows API is, IMHO, aesthetically displeasing. Linux is (or can be) small, robust, royalty-free, etc.

Re:why are people willing to use a proprietary gui

[Progoth]

honestly, until these suckers run a nice free software gui i see no compelling reason to stop using palmos devices.

umm....ever heard of opie?

I guess it doesn't matter....

[greymond]

but does anyone else find the design monsterously ugly. It seems like a decent device - although I'll stick with my Zaurus, but unlike any of the other PDA's on the market this one just LOOKS ugly. I know that this could seem like a troll post, but honestly i'm sure there is others like me who don't like using ugly things - similar to my complaint with the Xbox Giganta controller - which was quickly replaced with a smaller one.

Once bitten twice shy

[CountDown]

Idunno. I have a VR3d. My second one(broke the first one). A lot of software was developed for the VR3 and things were going great, but the hardware just wasn't up to snuff. Broken screens, buttons, lids, and the occasional projectile stylus were more than the developer community could stand.

This new one looks too much like the old one. A revamped power system, more memory, expandability, and the reduction of buttons are all improvements, but the biggest problem with the VR3 was the screen.I will not buy the newest linux-based PDA until I see improvements to the case. The days when I would buy a block of wood with a penguin on it have passed.

I also have an IPAQ 3150(running Familiar Linux) and a Zaurus SL5000d. The Zaurus is my favorite. Native Linux, expandability, and durability seem to be its strong points.

if it is like the first in quality...

[samantha]

Definitely do not buy it. The first was utterly unusable due to extreme slowness and seeming lack of real multi-tasking. I was amazed they even bothered to put it out in such condition. The CPU is relatively slow in today's PD world. There is no support for standard cards for wifi and such, only memory, no room for a microdisk for instance. Extra hardware needed even for bluetooth? SIGH. I don't see anything at all compelling here.

Re:Opie seems like a dead end

[treke]

The GPL licensing on the apps is probably going to stick around, but the plan is to replace the current libraries with LGPL replacements. You would still need to purchase a commercial license for QT if you are insterested in building a commercial PDA, but OPIE wont be preventing it.

Re:My question

[prostoalex]

There are differences between the full re-install process on PC and Zaurus, but to answer your question - yes. You will have to build your own image on PC first, check http://docs.zaurus.com/ for more details, then have the zImage and the filesystem in place, after which you "reflash" your Zaurus with the help of a CompactFlash card and a certin key combination. Everything in the image is pre-compiled on PC (gotta make sure you're compiling for ARM target) and then packed into the image.

If you screw up your Zaurus badly, Sharp and OpenZaurus provide ready-to-go images. Sharp's is the official image that you get when you buy your Zaurus. Any data you created yourself would be lost after reflash, unless backed up.

Bored with my Zaurus

[Randy Rathbun]

I have a 5500. At first it was a major cool toy. I mean, it is so easy to impress your geek friends by running a webserver in your pocket. But then what?

Once the gee-whiz factor wore off, I was left with just that. A gee-whiz toy. I have yet to actually do anything with it.

When I had a Palm I used it daily. When I had a PocketPC, I got to reboot it every fifteen minutes and quickly dumped it. The Zaurus never has crashed on me, but I find myself leaving it at home more often than not.

I am going to get rid of the Zaurus soon and go back to the Palm platform. I got a lot more use out of their stuff. Sure, it might crash at the drop of a hat (though nothing like PPC2002 does) but at least Palm thought out the thing from the start instead of trying to be like everyone else.

Linux in a handheld is probably going to be very cool one day. Just not right now.

gzip

[Gothmolly]

Since gzip is stream based, unlike bzip, you really can't add a progress indicator - gzip never knows how far along it is!