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Plasma TVs vs. LCD Projectors for Your Home Entertainment?
Kent Brewster asks: "We're working on making the presence of a TV set in our living room as unobtrusive as possible. The two main flat-or-invisible screen choices seem to be plasma and LCD projection. Gateway has a $3000 42-inch plasma screen, but I see ominous comments on Usenet about how that one's not really an HDTV and therefore to be avoided. Projector Xpress has a page of Sony projectors that are at or around that $3000 mark, and the street price for a home system that's HDTV-compatible seems to be working its way down to $1000. I would love to hear from anyone who's actually owned one of the Gateway models and might be willing to discuss pros and cons; same goes for anyone who's watching TV on a video projector. How's your bulb life, and what do they cost? Is the thing hot and noisy? Was it hard to set up? Have you integrated it with your home theater? Are you using a screen, or just shooting it onto the wall? If I do this, am I going to feel like an idiot a couple of years from now when LED bulbs replace everything?"
Maybe you want a Fog Screen?
get 7 free Japanese lessons.
And I have done most of my reseach for a projector from this page. http://www.projectorcentral.com/
in which I'm very happy with my InFocus X1
Sig
If you look on the page, only the 50" is labeled as HD.
Not LED bulbs, buddy... Laserbeams!
The in-development technology will use lasers fired at scanning, switching MEMS mirrors to produce an image. It's kind of a cross between DLP, laser scanners, and nanotech.
The best part about it? No lens. No bulbs to replace (Though your lasers might burn up), and your throw distance can be basically any length without the distortion you'd get out of traditional optics trying to do the same thing. Want a 100 inch picture three feet away from the projector? No problemo.
Also, I have hooked it up to my home theater and watched crystal clear DVD's on the size of my wall, played my PS2 on it, and used it as my computer screen on occasion when playing some games. It works perfectly in all of those scenarios.
I have even pointed it outside and the picture was stunning up against the neighbor's house...it was at least 40 ft wide and 25 feet tall!
Also, it is a very small device. Much smaller than InFocus' stuff. Very easy to hide, or remove and put away until you need it.
Best part is they are available on ebay for less than or close to $1000.
If you have the room for a projector, and are willing to have a giant screen in your room, then there's no reason not to go with one and get a three to four times as big of a picture. If you're willing to go up to about $4,000, shop around and see if you can find an InFocus Screenplay 5700. It's MSRPed at $5K, and I know plenty of places sell it for $4K, maybe you could find a good deal to bring it down further. It's a 16:9 widescreen, DLP projector running at 1024x768 with HDTV support up to 1080p, recommended for use with a 100" screen. http://www.projectorcentral.com/infocus_screenplay _5700.htm
"Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity" -Alvy Ray Smith
This site has a point by point comparison of plasma and LCD. If I understand correctly all digital televisions, be they CRT, LCD or plasma can display HDTV. However, if the screen does not have the same number of pixels or the same aspect ratio of HDTV then the picture will be adjusted. FWIW I don't think I'd pay much extra for a very few extra pixels. If the best value was non-HDTV that's what I'd get. It will still display HDTV programs if I understand correctly.
I'm very happy with my XGA DLP projector (Plus UP-1100P business projector with modifications to improve home theater quality). I've got it mounted from a vaulted ceiling using two unistrut (U-shaped channel with holes in it) lengths and threaded rod for adjustment, so mine's not too invisible. I use a 110" diagonal 4:3 painted area for my screen (88x66"). I just used flat white paint from Lowes. There is a place called Screen Goo that makes paint designed for projectors; on there you can find some cool pictures of a house where the projection screen was integrated into the room decor by painting it on the wall, with a decorative border. Without the projector on it just looks like a landscape with a white area and then clouds above. You can get some high-grade glass and put the projector in another room, with just a small hole in the wall, for noise elimination and complete removal of any sign of electronics (except for speakers, of course).
A solution to the problem with music today
I faced the same choice. Plasma was > 15000$ while SXGA projectors were around 6000$.
I went for an LCD projector, installed upside down (in ceiling mode) and projecting onto a 100" diagonal pull-down screen. DVD playback via PC VGA out; TV/Video S-Video in). 5x100W RMS + 150W RMS sub sound system with excellent speakers.
I've watched around 400 DVDs by now. Haven't changed the lamp yet. The power supply broke down once (300$ repair) and the projector has developed a nasty 'shadow'. Fixing it is quoted 2000$ so this is out of the question. (I could fix it myself; probably a leaky capacitor in the A/D conversion but the schematics are not available)
What I don't like:
- steep projector repair prices (avoid InFocus ?).
- screen is not quite flat causing waving lines.
- darkening the room is mandatory (problematic in summer)
- projector and PC are noisy (tho my sound system can easily overwhelm them)
- watching non-HD TV. The quality sucks.
- not suitable for 'background' TV viewing.
All in all I've had a very good time (at about $10/hour in viewing costs), and while prices have come down significantly I don't regret my 'investment'.
A TV and a home theatre are very different things. So when HDTV becomes available I think I'd go for plasma.
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
- no concerns about light control. if you're using a front projector, your room has to be DARK.
:)
- no concerns about burn-in. unlike plasma, lcd, and crt (direct view and rear projection) the screen cannot have an image burned into it. watch blackboxed 4x3 television, play video games, and watch channels with static logos without having to deliberately balance your viewing.
- lightweight. samsung's flagship 61" rpdlp set weighs only 100 lbs. a 40" wega direct view crt weighs 300 lbs (and most of the weight is in the front of the unit).
- little calibration required for optimal viewing. most alternative sets need numerous factory menu tweaks in order to get acceptable color levels.
- inexpensive. compare the prices
- dvi-hdcp interface for future-proofed hdtv compatibility. also a perfect pixel reproduction as a monitor.
the only maintenance needed is a $250 lamp every 2-3 years. i know a lot of these comparisons have been in contrast to front projection, but they should all be weighed.
look at samsung's rpdlp site (they're the only major people pushing the sets so far), hit the avs forum for much better advice than you'll get here, and then check them out at your local store. most major department stores (best buy, circuit city, etc) have them on display unlike front projection units.
If you are at a high elevation, make sure any Plasma you look at is engineered to work there. If it's not, expect a loud and annoyning buzz to develop over time. Last I knew, the Gateway units had this problem.
Either way, the lifetime is significantly shorter than a traditional TV. Plasma TVs must be recharged as the gas is expended. Most plasma TVs list a lifetime of 20K to 30K hours, and this may be enough. Consider though, that if you left one of these on all of the time that it would die in about 3 years. Of course, few people would leave their TV on 24/7 (except businesses and such), but I wonder if the picture degrades as the plasma is used up. After a year or two, do you then need a recharge to get as good of a picture as when you bought the TV?
Something important to consider is the noise generated by the fan in a projector. There may be some quiet ones out there, but most projectors I encounted, regardless of DLP/LCD/etc., are too loud. (How loud is too loud? I expect a $2-5000 TV to be at least not much worse than a $200 TV...)
Unless it has at least 3000 lumens, you won't be able to use it in anything but a darkened room. I have wanted a true 1920x1200, 3000+ lumen projector for about 5 years now. They don't exist.
Then again, I don't think there's a plasma monitor that even does 1600x1200 yet. Until I have HD display options, I will stick to my 12 year old 19" JVC CRT. And, whatever I buy musn't become obsolete for at LEAST another decade.
I have a Sony KP61PS2 - it's a 61" (yes, sixty-one inch) rear projection CRT set.It's not a HD set because there is no HD programming here in the UK, but since I mainly use it to watch DVD's anyway, that's hardly a problem. Instead it has Sony's "Digital Reality Control" (DRC) which doubles the apparent resolution (it's necessary at this size).
The screen technology they use throws the vast majority of the light directly forward in a fairly narrow cone, concentrating it powerfully, so the brightness and contrast has to be seen to be believed. Even when viewing in daylight.
This set absolutely rocks for viewing movies.
Surprisingly despite its size, the set is no deeper than a conventional TV and will fit against the wall without sticking out too far. In fact it sticks out just far enough that if you are using external speakers, the front of the set will be just about flush with them. Perfect.
As for price, this TV cost me quite a bit less than a low-end 42" plasma screen. With none of the picture quality deficiencies inherent in plasma screen displays.
The only thing that would beat my TV is a good quality ceiling mounted CRT projector. And you know how expensive those are.
BTW I coupled this with a JVC DVHS machine, and the picture quality of my digital off-air recordings is indistinguishable from the original, even on this monster screen. I doubt most DVR recorders are that good.
I personally wouldn't buy a plasma screen; their price versus their longevity makes them a lousy investment. OLED may be better; though their longevity may be in doubt, the price will be a lot better. But if you want to make a real investment in a home theater, go with digital light.
Digital light, in case you don't know, means a projector with an array of MEMS-controlled mirrors reflecting light at the screen. (When they talk about flipping a pixel, they really mean it!) These projectors can handle a lot more light without needing a noisy cooling fan, and should last longer than any of the current competing technologies, despite the expense of a good projector.
I work for a midsize company that does displays in R&D. My advice is to wait. There are huge issues with Plasma that make it a ripoff. Projectors are better, but only good for dedicated home theater. It is like this, Plasma is photo-emissive. It depletes itself constantly, but not on a linear scale. The first thousand hours are key. That means, you turn on your TV from outta the box, turn on a test screen, leave for a few hours, and the screen is damaged forever. The damage can be localized too. Watching a TV station that uses a bug will burn in the bug after a while. The full color gamat is not being used, so the depletion is not equal and the image suffers. This holds true for all emission displays. If you hook up your plasma to a computer that has a fixed image, say a start menu or a dock, or a SCO logo burning as a backround, it will burn in. It is only possible to remove by reverse driving the image, and that requires 1337ness and an understanding of colors. As for LCD projectors, they choke with the lights on. They are good for home video, and do great there, but are not normal TV's. My advice is to wait. The gen 6 LCD plants will be here soon. With them will come 42 AMLCDs that will be fast enough and bright enough for this use. They should also be much cheaper, possibly low end models for under $1500. There are a few good ones that exist now, but are more expensive due to reduced capacity. You can get a beautful 42 inch AMLCD for about $10,000 now, but that price will drop very quick very soon.
I'd say more, but my guild is raiding.
I've got a 1500 lumen Viewsonic that does just fine with the lights on. Granted, with the lights out, it looks *superb*, but I think it does much better than the plasma screens I've seen, especially considering the price.
I'd suggest anyone who's looking for one to go down to CompUSA and test out a few models before deciding. Make sure to test it in a well lit area and take things like distance from the screen into account. I also think that they get dimmer with higher resolution. I use mine at 800x600, so 1920x1200 might be worse than what I'm used to.
Nowadays, even the cheap models are almost twice as bright as those just a few years ago, though, so it's not as big a deal as you make it out to be.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Well, that explains how many grains of salt to take your opinion with. You want true HD at ludicrous brightness, and you want the progress of technology to halt until you've amortized your purchase cost. Which, most likely, shouldn't be more than that of a decent 19" monitor, right? What was that about sh!t and the cable modem again?
Okay i've seen a few posts commenting about Plasmas and their lifespans and I just thought i'd clarify from what I know. First of all, There is no such thing as "recharging a plasma", Once the half life of the neon or zenon gas is done, its gone. The old "plasma recharging trick" is a common misconception/myth which is sometimes used by salesmen who have little knowledge of what they are selling. Plasmas cannot be recharged, period. Most plasmas have a lifespan of about 20,000 to 30,000 hours depending on the manufacturer. Pioneer models claim 30,000 because of "deep enclosed cells" however I am not sure how true their claim is. Most companies claim an average lifespan of about 10-15 years based on average viewing habits. This is not a bad lifespan for a TV, if correct. The Gateway Plasma is a rebranded Sampo model which can be purchased as Costco or Best Buy. It has the effective resolution of 480p, which is approximately the quality of a DVD and will accept all HD signals but only scale them down (most do a decent job but still not HD). Most plasmas display 1080i natively.
-macado
I apologize before hand if any of this information is incorrect. Feel free to correct me.
IAAPO (I am a Plasma Owner)
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Yeap, I'm still on the Plasma honeymoon -- going on 5 months.
VisualApex is *THE* place to order from. Very professional, and great prices.
I had considered the Grand Wega II, but the Plasma visual quality is simply unbelievable. Check avsforum if you really want to know how the two compare.
Proof?
Rich Harkness's Plasma screenshots...
http://www.pbase.com/chunkofunk/l
This thread has great tips on tweaking the Plasma.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea
The Grand Wega community has put together a 50 page pdf for tweaking. I would take a look at that too. Sorry I don't have the page handy.
I must say that what you're reading on usenet about the gateways is true. We had a couple at work for a _short_ period about 3 months ago and they were bad. Blurry, fuzzy, burned in in less than 24 hours as a monitor (even though they're sold to be used with a computer...). Generally not good. Might be ok for standard definition TV (they didn't look bad from about 4 ft+) but would definitely recommend saving your pennies for something better if you're looking for a "plasma" experience. Also hear that the gateways are re-badged Sampo's so you might be careful with those also.
...display full resolution 1920x1080i HDTV, then the only thing out there is a high-end CRT. I've looked everywhere and noone make a DLP or LCD Projector or plasma or LCD flat panel which can display full reolution HDTV (except for the apple 23"cinema display, and possibly other computer models at this size, but that's not for TV)
The laser makes sense. Otherwise, you'd need a BEOWULF CLUSTER of LED's.
It had to be said.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
Throwing specs around is great but really won't answer your question; as opposed to user-experience, which I can offer.
/each.
Where I work I use NEC 42" plasma screens daily, I have 2 friends with 50" pioneers plasma screens and have worked with sony plasma's previously. I have several 17-18-19" LCD's for work and 1 friend with a Panasonic LCD TV ( I believe it is 36" diag). We also use several runco hd-dlp front-projector/wall-screen set-ups and 1 samsung rear-projector dlp-tv.
In all cases if you sit closer than 6-8 feet to the plasmas' then any you will constantly notice jaggies during normal tv viewing and several types of ghosting/artifacts during any high speed action sequences. The NEC's cost us about US $9k
The problem is that you buy a big screen for just that reason - real estate - and if you have to sit 10 feet away then it defeats the purpose because then your new 61" whizbang looks the size of your 27" whatzit you started out with.
Enter the LCD, They have better control over jaggies but then you are very constrained when it comes to viewing locations - you basically need to be directly in front and within about 8 feet in a well lit room in order to view it comfortably.The pc screens all run about US $1k, but the tv ran my friend US $5k.
Projectors are all about tweaking, on 2 of our runco sets we have rooms with one wall entirely of glass i.e. tons of sunlight, and the projectors are set to throw a 72" screen from 8 feet away (they are ceiling mount) and they are beautiful to see in action - no jaggies or artifacts and colors are spot-on. But it did take about 3 days of tweaking to get that with all video sources.And they cost about US $7k per set-up.
Our primary Runco set-up is a 14footx8foot screen with the projector set 20feet back. This was because even after going through all the specs before hand, the darn thing wouldn't give us the full image from the 16foot distance reccomended by the factory install team.
And after 2 weeks of tweaking the image is barely viewable with all lights off, the images ae fuzzy and color alignment is all wrong; we have to replace the bulb about every 3 and a half weeks @ US $600/bulb; and this was their top of the line dlp from 2 years ago -almost US $20k.
The samsung rp-dlp is beautiful in action and doesn't have any issue with ambient light in the room, however it did run about US $5k.
For a home setup, I have a great 36" toshiba digital tv. Complete with component connections and a sony HDTV tuner + PS2 + gamecube.
This gives the best cost/performance ratio as it cost only US $1200 plus another US $1200 for the tuner, which isn't included with any of the other set-ups.
Bottom Line: Get out to all of the showrooms you can and actually look at these things in person, You will be surprised at how good your current set-up actually compares to what is available out there.
If I were a TV manufacturer, I'd stick a couple megs of buffer in my HDTV decoder and display 1080i as 1080p a few milliseconds later. Then all the video geeks would buy my TV set.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I used to want a plasma because the pictures was incredible...however Motorola is talking about a new carbon nanotube screen that will be cheaper than a plasma screen. Press release here. Maybe we'll have really nice tv's we can hang on the wall for a lot better price soon.
2048x1152 DLP (front projection)
1280x720 DLP (rear projection)
Flat CRT (still under development)
Inorganic Electroluminescent (still under development)
Electrostatics & Suspension (ambient light, still working on color)
Electrostatics & Revolution (ambient light, still working on color)
Electrostatics & Interference (ambient light, no plans for larger modules!?!?)
I'll try to be brief... OK. Gateways used to be re-branded Sampos, which in turn were rebranded Fujitsus and Samsungs. Not sure what they're doing now, except that they're still rebranding. Plasma is a good choice for home theater, as are projectors. Lamp life on an average projector is 2000-3000 hours (check out http://www.projectorcentral.com/ for detailed per unit breakdown) Projectors are good because they can be used anywhere; a rooftop, a cold beer, and a HD picture 12 feet across is a nice combination. DLP has come a long way for those of you subject to the "rainbow effect". The DLP colour wheels are spinning ever faster, reducing the possibility that they will in fact make you sick. LCDs have come a long way too (check out http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp.htm for a pro and con examination of each.) Finially, here's our web page. Any questions, drop me a line. http://www.avdeals.com Also, here's another link that might help clarify some of these issues: http://www.avdeals.com/classroom/learning_resource s.htm
Regards,
Thomas
Movies were meant to be watched with the lights turned off.
My projector is only rated 600 lumens and I love it.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Super-high-res projector capable of 3000+ lumens - $20k+ most likely.
"OK" projector, maybe 720p-capable, 1200 lumens - $5-6k, maybe less.
Curtains: $100 or less.
So I can either spent $15000 overcoming lights in the room, or I can spend $100 and install some fucking curtains.
Real tough decision there.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
"We're working on making the presence of a TV set in our living room as unobtrusive as possible." sez Keith
:-)
Suggestion
1)No TV, this is my preference but compromise is the key to a long marraige so...
2)13" all in one CRT type with tape and DVD for $149. It fits nicely on the oven when not in use.
3)Buy my 1000 surplus 10.2" 640x480 dual scan, 7mm thick LCD panels for $10k and make your wall into a TV (black and white though
There are at least 2 projectors that do 1920x1080, but they aren't cheap.
Sanyo HD-10
JVC QX1G
There is also at least one RPTV that has 1080 LCOS panels in it. Hitachi maybe?
Sony XBR Grand WEGA.
'nuff sed.
12 years? 19"?? I have a 21 inch RCA that just so happens to be 3 years older than me! (it's 24!)
Error 666 - Satanic SCO code found in your Linux kernel.
A HD tv is jolly good, but you do realize that unless you have 3000 laying around, you can't get one...You see, they don't lease them
Try $499 for an Apex 27" (iffy brand).
Or $699 for a Samsung 27".
Or $999 for a 30" widescreen flat-face CRT from Samsung or Philips.
Or $1299 for a 32" HDTV Wega CRT...
Need I go on? (This was from a quick search at Best Buy.)
LCD projectors are bad, very. While LCD works lovely with wristwatches and cellular phones, it is bad for displaying big stuff - either on the screen or on the wall.
I've played with several LCD projectors - the kind used for presentations, and they were always bad. They always had poor contrast.
About plasma I don't know much, but it's still worse than normal CRT technologies. So the answer is, either use a digital projector or just wait for the LED (or organic led) world.
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss
Most of the highly rated posts I've seen here so far are based on old prices and equipment and give wrong impressions of what you can buy today.
:)
:)
:)
I recently purchased both the 42" Panasonic Plasma EDTV for $3800 and the Sanyo PLV-70 LCD PJ + 105"Diag Dalite HiPower tripod screen which you can get for $4,500.
The Panasonic is regarded the best Plasma in this price range period. However, the Sanyo kicks so much serious ass, I never would have bought a plasma.
Think 105" screen Plasma!!! I'm dead serious.
Panny
848x480 Not HDTV, but Enhanced Def TV
3000:1 Contrast Ratio
-burn in is a possible issue, not repairable
-heavy, weighs 85 lbs.
Sanyo
1366:768 True HDTV. Not 1080 though...
900:1 Contrast Ratio (Although numerically low, visually it rocks)
2200 lumens
-weighs like 20 lbs.
-replaceable lamp!
-looks fine in daylight, but kicks ass in the dark.
Both Plasmas and PJ's put out alot of heat!, so get an air conditioner for your room for the summer. All the PJ's listed here are very quiet so don't worry.
The Sony HS10 is cheaper at $2300, but has lower lumen output and is best for smaller screens 80" wide and requires good light control.
if you can do without the native 1366x768, then go with the Panasonic L300u for the best bang for the buck. $1800
Don't skimp on a screen. It's very important. If black levels are critical to you, get a hi contrast/grey screen. I prefer a high gain screen like the dalite high power.
The bulbs will be around $300-$500 lasting 2000-3000 hours (think at least a year), depending on the PJ. The Panny is the best value though.
And no, LED's will not replace bulbs and you will not feel like an idiot. In fact, you'll feel foolish when you realize that you should have gotten a projector sooner.
I have my hdtv cable, xbox, and pc connected. I can surf the web, play games, etc on a 105" screen. it's simply amazing. In fact, I think my eyesight is slowly improving as I sit 12 feet away from the screen when browsing.
After you're done here, go straight to these sites.
www.projectorcentral.com
www.avsforum.com
Do a search for pj prices on
shopping.yahoo.com
You may want to delay your purchase until after Cedia this september. Announcement of new products may cause prices to dip. And there's this rumour going around about low cost cold laser projectors and true blacks, drool....