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Crippled CD Deemed Defective In France
Noryungi writes "The daily newspaper Liberation reports that at least one person got her money back, by suing EMI, no less. She was able to do that with the help of the largest consumer organization in France, which has its own list of articles on this subject.
So, French people who cannot read their copy-protected CDs can get their money back, but copy protection is not made illegal by the court decision... It's certainly a step in the right direction, though..."
For the French-impaired, an anonymous reader adds "The Register has a good article on EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect' -- it wouldn't work on a car's CD player ... Is the tide changing?"
EMI surrenders to France?!
Wow, I really don't blame EMI. I mean, who could have known beforehand that they wouldn't work in some extremely common devices? Come on, guys. Testing can only go so far before they have to release it into the real world. And I'm sure that for the tuesday afternoon that they DID test compatability, they were very thorough.
I am a filthy pirate.
There is an Act that if passed will require clear lables on all copy protected CDs. From EFF:
t em =2664
Senator Ron Wyden recently introduced the Digital Consumer Right-to-Know Act (DCRKA), a bill that would require entertainment companies to label products with copy-protections that limit consumer use. Support the DCRKA if you think the content industry should be ordered to clearly label media that restricts your rights!
http://action.eff.org/action/index.asp?step=2&i
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
It's good to see not all countries have turned themselves over to corporate interests, but a victory in France (which doesn't exactly have a history of putting foreign corporate interests ahead of their own citizens) doesn't say much about the tide in the US.
Jason
ProfQuotes
Hey, we got the bomb now! We'll never surrender! Screw you EMI!
Seems like they've proved that EMI made defective disks, shouldn't a recall be necessary?
I actually e-mailed EMI about the copy protection on the new Jane's addiction CD. Here is the reply I have recieved:
"We are in receipt of your email and regret you have experienced a problem with one of our products.
The technology we are using is designed to ensure that the disc plays on multiple devices. There have been playability problems with a very small number of players, but the vast majority of these problems have been fixable by our technology suppliers as they are constantly updating and improving the technology that is included in the copy controlled discs.
As long as consumers alert us to the problem we will endeavor to adapt the copy control technology.
Please forward your address as we search for a replacement from another territory. Thank you.
Regards,
Emi Music Canada
Quality Control Dept
1 (866) 553-0220"
Once (and if) Apple gets their iTunes music store over to windows, and into international markets we will slowly begin to see the CD market go the way of the horse and buggy.
The market has been declining for years due to high prices, and formulaic content... there is still a possibility record labels may become more innovative and profitable with newer technologies.
I think that it's about time these huge record labels had some sense knocked into them (even if it is by the french government).
You are kidding, right? Do you honestly believe that EMI, let alone the record industry as a whole, is going to change their practices because of a single insignificant law suite that cost them a single CD and court costs? Here comes the clue train.
This will have no impact on them whatever. They will continue with business as usual and for each returned CD that they get, they will sell millions.
The only way for there to be a "changing tide" is if they are seriously affected monetarily, as in a major drop in sales, or if they are legally bound by a class action suite or something similar.
EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect'
What beautiful wording. And absolutely true. If you purchase data, it should be that, data, plain and simple, with no extras or hitches.
Theory and Philsophy lesson 1 for Copy protection companies:
If you can read it, you can copy it.
I think they already know that deep down. So their idea is to make the data harder and harder to read... to the point where it becomes defective.
...morons
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
"Achete par une consommatrice, Francoise Marc, dans un hypermarche Auchan, le CD d'Alain Souchon etait illisible sur l'autoradio de sa Clio."
A PC with an X through it doesn't really help to show that the CD doesn't play in your car. If that isn't enough, most DVD players don't play these, either. This policy is starting to really piss consumers off. As far as I know, most retailers around here (Germany, that is) just take all the CDs back, if you give them "it doesn't play on my DVD/car stereo/discman" as the reason.
If you believe
the study referenced in this article, then the whole issue of copy protecting audio CDs is pretty much dead in the water anyway.
Obligatory links to TRUTH about McDonald's case whenever a person speaks of it based on IGNORANCE:
m cdonalds.htm
http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
This is very interesting, and was probably the right thing to do.
After all, when one sells a disc that looks like a standard CD in a store that sells standard CDs, especially on the same racks as standard CDs, it is a reasonable assumption for the consumer to believe that the product is a standard CD.
If there were significant visible markings on the disc that said something to the effect of "This disc does not meet the red-book standard for Compact Disc Digital Audio" then it would be reasonable to allow the sale of the crippled CD -- after all, the manufacturer has made it apparent that this disc is not a Compact Disc, but that it *might* support some of the same functionality. If you are concerned, don't buy, if you buy, well, you were warned.
This is how I feel the "broken CD game" should be played. I have no problem with companies trying to peddle "broken" CDs, just so long as every consumer knows that it is "broken"
As for the CDs/DVDs that become opaque after a certain time? I'm not sure what to do there. You see, the trouble stems from the fact that, until it becomes opaque, the disc conforms to the standard. Still, I am certain that an appropriate "warning label" can be determined.
In the end, it ought to be up to an informed market to decide whether "broken" or "sudden-death" media are acceptable -- not the government to mandate.
That said, I applaud the decision made, and will continue to support these kinds of decisions until it is made blindingly obvious which disks are crippled
Should read:
Differently-Abled CD Deemed Special In France
I doubt that this means much. Just like the guy who was able to get $200 back from some major OEM for Windows XP by taking it to small claims, it's not going to change "business". It will take hundreds of those kind of lawsuits and the accompanying legal bills to make a difference. I mean, if you're spending $1 million in attorney's fees to represent a company for $100k in refunds, what do you think you're going to do? Look at how effective "our" /. boycott on the RIAA, Sony, Disney, et al is. A few loud mouth geeks don't mean anything in the real world. Remember high school? Remember how nobody listened to you because you were just a nerd and were "uncool"? What makes you think things have changed just because you're an adult? We can raise a stink, but no one cares. They're still writing the checks, consuming like mindless idiots, and the vocal minority still doesn't get what we want. You have to think to yourself that most of the Joe Consumer's out there will buy a defective product and if it doesn't work, are still too lazy to take it back (see Radar Jammers).
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
The copy protected CD you buy today may run on your current CD player. But what about your next CD player? How much percent of your CD collection will not run on the new player?
heise.de has setup a register for copy protected CDs and on which drives/players they are playable. The results so far show, that the copy protection is not PC drive specific. Some CD players do play some copy protected CDs, some players don't. The same goes for CD-ROM drives. Depends on the copy protection system also. Thus you can't tell which copy protection system will stop your next CD player from playing the CD.
Thus the record companies are FORCING music fans to make a digital copy (which is a crime in Germany now if you have to circumvent a copy protection mechansim).
And if you were living in the states, you'd have committed a federal crime, by violating the DMCA. As you circumvented a copy protection system.
Interestingly, the Brazilian CD which was defective (Tribalistas, featuring Marisa Monte, Arnaldo Antunes, and Carlinhos Brown) was not copy-protected in the US (I was worried after reading this article, but I bought a copy and had no problems reading it on my Mac).
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
I normally consider myself a die-hard american. I tend to support our government through thick and thin. But as of late, it seems like European government (courts especially) are the only ones that care to protect their citizens. Look back through Slashdot articles for the past week or two. You'll see what I mean.
I had never considered moving to another country. But the more European governments step up to this crap while our own government takes the DMCA attitude, the better my chances of visiting the EU for an extended stay.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
What if you needed special glasses to see the great works of art from the Renasance?
Copyright law is about giving companies a way to profit from selling their works for a limited time before said works become part of our collective culture. Just because computers enter into the picture does not make it okay to take a jackhammer to tradition.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
According to this article, FAT32 can be up to 8 TB. However, due to limitations in Windows 2000 and XP's FAT driver, it can only create a FAT32 filesystem as large as 32 GB.
: Is opening up a cup of coffee over your lap the
: smartest thing? perhaps not. But why would you sell
: something at a drive thru-window that people would
: have to get out of there car to open?
Because if you are able to accomplish this feat of legerdemain without burning yourself (as 99.9% of people seem able to do), then you should have right to buy your coffee piping hot. Stupid and/or clumsy people have the choice to buy their coffee from restaurants that don't make it so hot. Don't take away the rights of the vast, vast majority to get their coffee hot, the way they like it.
It's attitudes like this ("Everything that's gone wrong in my life is someone else's fault") that makes life in the US so stressful and expensive for those of us who think it isn't right to blame someone else for everything.
Things are seriously at the point now that I can't even leave a hedge trimmer sitting on the floor near a window for fear that someone I didn't invite into my home (i.e., a burglar) would accidentally cut off his fingers and successfully sue me for damages encountered in the process of his performing an illegal act. The stress of having to worry about every little thing that I could possibly be sued for is the clearest argument (IMO) for tort reform.
[ home ]
On the one hand, you link to a (very accurate) anti-Bush site in your sig. On the other, you've bought into the anti-French propaganda pushed by the same right-wing idiots that site criticizes. The fact is that the French military record overall is no better or worse than the record of most of the other great powers. Win a few, lose a few; that's the way it goes.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Do you think she would have cared what temperature the coffee was at when she did this?
Yes.
If the sign had said "Warning: Coffee causes third degree burns" do you think she would have acted differently?
Yes. Though that would still be stupid, a cup which has enough structural rigidity to not collapse without the lid would be a better solution.
Assuming she's mentally stable she doesn't go around her daily life deciding whether to do things or not based on how bad a burn she gets ("Gee, I should touch the hot stove, I only get a second degree burn this way!") so why was this important for her coffee?
That's exactly what everyone does.
I don't put on safety gloves when I get a can of coke from a vending machine. I assume it will be cold but not so cold as to hurt me. If the vending machine operator decided that keeping the cans in liquid nitrogen made them last longer I would expect some warning about the unexpected temperature the cans would be.
When I buy a coffee I expect it to be reasonably hot and I take suitable care. I don't tip it over my head, for example. However, I don't put on safety gear before buying my morning coffee. I don't make sure everybody around me keeps at least a meter away. Since I know if someone bumps into me and my coffee splashes onto my chest it won't do serious damage - it'll just wet my shirt. If the coffee vendor decided that the coffee would be better if it was acidic enough to eat through clothing and skin, then I would expect some warning - and I would take more precautions...
When I buy a slice of pizza I don't test the temperature with a thermometer. I assume it is at a suitable temperature for eating, though the first bite might be a bit careful in case the cheese is too hot. I assume it isn't hot enough to burn my hand through the plate as I hold it though.
Everyone I see does numerous things everyday that are slightly risky because the potential damage is small enough to not be worth taking more care.
If the potential damage of those actions suddenly increased they would want some warning.
I've spilt coffee on myself before. All it did was make my clothes a bit wet. I've never spilt any potent acids on myself (even though I used them way back when I was doing chem. eng.). I must have been more careful with the acid than with the coffee. I did exactly what you seem to think is abnormal. I figured wearing safety gear and being very precise about my movements wasn't necessary when I was carrying the cup of coffee down the hall, because the damage it could do (making me wet) wasn't worth the hassle.
Then again, maybe you walk around in a plastic bubble (after all you could catch a virus and die - that's a pretty serious thing) and handle your hot coffee and cold coke with tongs.
There is actually a group of standards that apply to CDs. The trick is figuring out what exactly is happening on any particular disc. For example, in the official Compact Disc Logo Guide published by Philips, there are different logos to show discs compliant to the following standards:
There is actually a specification for each one of these logos. Also, there is no guarantee that a CD-ROM drive will be able to play a CD-DA disc (per the spec, though the spec says that it would be easy, and it is).
There is an effort underway to understand all of this stuff and to figure out how these things work together, and with various types of hardware. The project has an Open Source (BSD-style license) package called CD Verity that performs some testing of discs. The software is part of Interhack's Digital Media Project and might be of interest.
My CD-players say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" and not "Copy-Controlled CD", therefore, my CD-players are not compatible with these CDs and must be returned. Period.
:( The store didn't even make me aware of this, naturally, they just want to sell whatever they have blindly.
BTW: Have any of you seen the Copy-Controlled labels on these CDs? It's always on a TRANSPARENT sticker, making it as hard as possible to spot, but just enough to hold in court. Slick! I sure as hell didn't know until I put it in my CD-player on the computer at home, finding it wouldn't play. The CD (Radiohead) was returned.
As for these Midbar/Macrovision guys (the guys who made these "protections" (*cough* programmers with screw-drivers *cough*)), they must be wizards in the field of business. I mean, managing to fool the music industry giving them false hopes like this.
Midbar/Macrovision
Why the protection is completely useless: if you can play it, you can copy it. I don't see how it matters with copy-controlled CDs in that respect. Especially in the Internet world, where it's enough with one person sharing it, and given the fact that audio compressions are lossy means that it doesn't matter much what the heck your source was when recording it quality-wise.
Geez. Wake up!
Yeah, whatever. But this article really made my day. At least someone pays attention to this open injustice.
Neither disc has the CD logo on it, and both had very large stickers on the shrink-wrap with this logo on it and descriptions of what it meant, and what systems you should be able to play it on. (Since I refused to install the software necessary to actually play these on a computer, I have no idea how well they work in that respect.) I'm certainly going to avoid these from here on out if I can. I've noticed that amazon.co.uk, amazon.fr and amazon.de will occasionally note that a disc is copy-protected, so I'm going to check there first before buying from here on out.
Your mileage may vary, but mine is constant.
"Secondly, this type of copy-protection is a clear violation of the rights of any person who buys such a CD."
Here's where that argument breaks down. You have no rights. Rights in this country are granted by congress. You can't afford to outbribe industry lobbyists, so the laws are being made in their favor.
Many of the new laws go against the fundamental concepts of American freedom that we had drilled into our heads in public school. We want to believe that the government is "for the people", but what we see is a bunch of fatcats who don't give a damn about the Constitution and who cannot relate to the other 90% of the population.
One psychobabble term for the way all of this makes us feel is 'cognitive dissonance'. The choices for coping with it are
a) fix the problem.
b) give up your old beliefs.
c) find some new beliefs that are more important than the old ones.
Our feckless fuckwads in the whorehouse and the war department know they can't convince people to give up the beliefs that we should live free, that we're innocent until proven guilty, etc. They sure as hell don't want us to fix the problem, because that would mean putting Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Wolfowitz, Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe in front of a firing squad. Their method is to give us some new things to believe in.
In other words, due to 9/11 our rights are not important. Due to 9/11 we must go occupy Iraq. To protect the economy (what economy?) we must allow big business to run roughshod over American citizens.
Damn, i need a drink. I guess that's option d).