Crippled CD Deemed Defective In France

Noryungi writes "The daily newspaper Liberation reports that at least one person got her money back, by suing EMI, no less. She was able to do that with the help of the largest consumer organization in France, which has its own list of articles on this subject. So, French people who cannot read their copy-protected CDs can get their money back, but copy protection is not made illegal by the court decision... It's certainly a step in the right direction, though..." For the French-impaired, an anonymous reader adds "The Register has a good article on EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect' -- it wouldn't work on a car's CD player ... Is the tide changing?"

Comments

Rimshot

[Anonymous Coward]

EMI surrenders to France?!

Re:Rimshot

[Zeinfeld]

EMI surrenders to France?!

I find it somewhat bizare that EMI would even littigate the case. The product was clearly defective as manufactured and so under EU law the consumer has an absolute right to a full refund. No pissy-US '90 day' guarantees here. If you sell something that is broke the consumer gets a refund, period.

As for the wider political context, don't forget what the French Ambassador to the UN said on the subject of Iraq, basically that France belives it is not opposing US interests, just that it believes it has a better idea of what those interests are. The US came to regret not taking French advice in Vietnam and according to Paris will come to regret not taking their advice on the subject of invading Iraq.

From this we can deduce two things, first that the French can be insufferably arrogant for such a small country whose military success under Napoleon turned out to be what the music industry would call a 'one hit wonder', being followed by flop after flop. The only recent successes being in the consolation prize category of 'quickest surrender'. And no Jaques, the magnificent conquest of the Sahara desert does not qualify a country as an empire. The test of an empire is not merely the acreage under occupation, the locals have to actually be at least aware of the occupation.

The other thing we may deduce is that despite the fact they are frequently arrogant and obnoxious the French are frequently right, particularly when it comes to the 'stop the US from pig-headed self defeating policy blunder' category.

Re:Rimshot

[zangdesign]

Please don't let France know your opinion - they'll become insufferable.

Oh, yeah, and don't let the Department of Homeland Security or the Justice Department know either.

For obvious reasons.

Re:Rimshot

[ajnlth]

Arrogance is thinking that one needs to have military succes behind one self to say what one believes.

To have military victories is not an achievement, it's merely a proof of the failure that lead up to the armed conflict.

Re:Rimshot

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

It seems to me that a producer has a right to try to take steps to prevent users from using their products illegally. What they don't have is a right to deny a customer a refund if the product does not work as advertised, as is the case here.

Now one could argue that you have a right to be able to copy a piece of intellectual property as backup for personal use, but this is debatable and is not the point you raise.

And as for the rest, well, you don't have to be a great fighter to know the best strategies...

Re:Rimshot

[bogado]

Against your opinion, I don't believe that the greatness of a country lies in how many countries it can destroy. Or how much time under fire it can survive, before surrending. A country greaness should be measured in achievements, both scientific and social. How well their people live, how happy they are. This is what matters in the end.

Re:Rimshot

[gandalf23atwork]

The US came to regret not taking French advice in Vietnam

What?

The only reason the US became involved in Vietnam is because of the French. They should've ignored the French and backed Ho Chi Minh after WWII. Instead the US supported the French reclaiming their former colony and then when the French pulled out moved in to prop up the South.

Unless you know of some other advice they gave the US?

Re:Rimshot

[Anonymous Coward]

That is so true. After all, look at France's diplomacy in the late 1930s.

Re:Rimshot

[larien]

French can be insufferably arrogant

rather offtopic, but had to bring it up:

We know the world has gone to hell when the world's best rapper is white, the world's best golfer is black and the French are accusing the USA of being arrogant

Duuno the source, but it was doing the rounds via email just before Gulf War II, clone of the attack.

Re:Rimshot

[Anonymous Cow herd]

The only reason the US became involved in Vietnam is because of the French.

Technically, it's the Japanese' and our fault, but who's counting?

Re:Rimshot

[dvdeug]

France belives it is not opposing US interests, just that it believes it has a better idea of what those interests are.

France acts in France's best interests first, not the US's or Iraq's. Believe no country's lies to the countrary.

The US came to regret not taking French advice in Vietnam

One thing we came to regret that the French prevented Ho Chi Minh from talking to the US at the Versaille conferance at the end of WWI. We also came to regret that the French were so incompentent imperialists that there was a Vietnam war. France created the Vietnam problem.

Re:Rimshot

[Zeinfeld]

The only reason the US became involved in Vietnam is because of the French. They should've ignored the French and backed Ho Chi Minh after WWII. Instead the US supported the French reclaiming their former colony and then when the French pulled out moved in to prop up the South.

Hey, I was merely repeating what the French ambassador said on NPR:-)

Actually De Gaule did tell the US not to bother trying to replace them in Vietnam when they abandoned their former colony. France did not withdraw from choice, they withdrew for the same reasons the US withdrew later, the place was a quagmire.

Incidentally some posters have been criticisng me for 'buying into right wing criticism of France'. Err, not really, when the whole Iraq thing started I observed that the one good thing that could come out of it was that the right wing neo-cons would discover exactly how grateful France was to the US for rescuing it from the Nazis. Britain learned that a long time ago when de Gaulle vetoed Britain's application to join the common market.

France is very grateful to the US and British people for freeing France from the Nazis, however that does not mean they believe any gratitude is due to George 'AWOL draft dodger' Bush and his administration.

As for joining in to help in the war on terror, err well France is actually a state sponsor of terrorism as the folk at Greenpeace can tell you. France's bombing of the Rainbow Warrior was a state sponsored terrorist act. France's own neo-cons ordered the attack and then connived to get the terrorists who got caught out of jail. Last I heard Greenpeace had still not received compensation from France for the bombing and murder.

The real point of the post is that at this point the imperial pretensions of France are a complete joke. France simply does not have the military capacity to sustain an empire, behaving the way it often does simply makes them look ridiculous.

But fast forward a few years. You cannot be a military superpower without being an economic superpower. The Bushies are spending the country into the ground. When the baby boomers retire in ten years time and there is a choice between maintaining the militarism budget and paying social security they will choose to keep their pensions.

I think the most likely result of the invasion of Iraq is the emergence of Iran as the regional power and the rapid decline of the US as a military power as the US taxpayer is unable to afford a military budget larger than the whole of the rest of the world combined.

In other words, get those French jokes in quick. In a few years the US is likely to find itself in the same situation. Don't worry though, contrary to what the neo-cons would have you beleive it is probably not such a bad thing if the US does not have to play globo-cop all the time.

Re:Rimshot

[kavau]

Am I the only one here who read the above comment as an attempt at sarcastic humour? True, it is not entirely politically correct in its French-bashing, which seems so fashionable these days; but the comments about the past performance of the French military are entirely tongue-in-cheek, and are more than outweighed by the last paragraph, which could also have been written:

Okay, so France does not have a whole many military victories to be proud of in its history, but at least they have a few brain cells left that tell them that a war often is the worst possible solution in any conflict.

Overall, the comment seems quite pro-France to me. I'd give it a '+1 Funny' rating.

Re:Rimshot

[Zeinfeld]

Okay, so France does not have a whole many military victories to be proud of in its history, but at least they have a few brain cells left that tell them that a war often is the worst possible solution in any conflict.

Unless of course they are the ones wanting to start the war in question... Yep, that was the point France might well have been speaking from experience when it warned Bush not to start an unnecessary war. Things often turn out unexpectedly

Overall, the comment seems quite pro-France to me. I'd give it a '+1 Funny' rating. It was pretty pro-french, but anti-french militarism. The same goes for my posts wrt the US. You can be pro-US without being in favor of a US Empire. In fact if you believe in the values of the founders of the US you might well consider the neo-con militarist faction of Cheney, Perle and co who spend so much time wrapping themselves arround the flag to be the ones who are really anti-US.

The whole point of the post was that the US militarists are as ridiculous as the french militarists and being anti both sets of militarists is in no way unpatriotic.

Re:Rimshot

[Agent R]

As for the wider political context, don't forget what the French Ambassador to the UN said on the subject of Iraq, basically that France belives it is not opposing US interests, just that it believes it has a better idea of what those interests are.

Of course the world is still waiting on what the French believes those interests are.

The US came to regret not taking French advice in Vietnam and according to Paris will come to regret not taking their advice on the subject of invading Iraq.

I assume you've talked to the Vietnamese on how they felt too? And I know about 1/2 dozen Vietnamese who would like to give France the one-fingered salute for the mess.

The other thing we may deduce is that despite the fact they are frequently arrogant and obnoxious the French are frequently right,

Frequently right.. about what?

Re:Rimshot

[HuguesT]

You should read some other history books sometimes.

Originally Ho-Chi-Minh loved the US ideals and tried many times to get US help, not just at the end of WWI but right during the Indochina conflic. The US kept supplying France with weapons and not listening to him. France had little influence, then as now, on US foreign policies.

When the US took the place of the old colonial power and brought the conflict up one notch, Ho-Chi-Minh and the rest of the Vietnamese government finally saw through the US game. The US foreign policy then as now is not about bringing Democracy to anybody. It is just as crippled by ideology as any other country.

Re:Rimshot

[HuguesT]

You are absolutely correct on most points. I'm not sure however that the US will choose not to maintain its costly military. I think it needs to realize that winning war is easy with such materiel and good soldiers, but that winning the peace is a different kettle of fish. Possibly just as much money must be spent on it.

Another thing that always annoy me is that most French people think that the Rainbow Warrior episode was a complete disgrace from start to finish. Same as not all American approve of Bush's gung-ho approach to solving the world's problem.

Re:Rimshot

[Zeinfeld]

You are absolutely correct on most points. I'm not sure however that the US will choose not to maintain its costly military. I think it needs to realize that winning war is easy with such materiel and good soldiers, but that winning the peace is a different kettle of fish. Possibly just as much money must be spent on it.

I don't think there will be much of a choice. By 2015 the economy of China will be larger than the US economy in dollar terms. It is already larger if you look at manufacturing capacity. China has about five times the population. When you start to look at what it will take to be the number one superpower at that point there is simply no way the US is going to be able to afford it.

This does not have to be a disaster, the US can still be primus inter pares amongst the free world. The problem (if you want to see it that way) is that the US is simply not going to be able to act unilateraly in the way the neo-cons want to.

It is just as well that the Bush administration seems to be concluding that the UN is a good thing after all. Six months ago the neo-cons and the press were telling us that the French had done lasting damage to the UN and the UN would never be taken seriously again. Today it looks like rather the revers is going to be the result. I don't think that the US public would accept a neo-con push to invade Iran unilaterally without UN sanction at this point. Even the rabidly pro-Bush US media is starting to get the message that it is damned easy to start wars and pretty difficult to stop them.

Oh yes, the RIAA thing, perhaps if the dopey slashdot editors got a clue and started a section with political stories they might have a bigger business opportunity. Linux was hot news eight years ago, but face it, the tech community cares about a lot more than just technology. We have been debating the RIAA story for four years now, I don't know anything to say on the topic that has not been said already and looking at the other posts nobody else does either.

The next stage in slashdot evolution should be to fire the editors and replace them with code. Having commander taco and co decide what news is important is not the secret of Slashdot success. Better still VA-Linux should sell slashdot to Google and then google could hook up slashdot to google news. Adapt or die guys, if you don't make the imaginative leap others will.

Re:Rimshot

[Zeinfeld]

I assume you've talked to the Vietnamese on how they felt too? And I know about 1/2 dozen Vietnamese who would like to give France the one-fingered salute for the mess.

At the time the advice was given the French themselves, even the arch-colonialist deGaulle had come to the same conclusion that they had completely bolloxed the situation beyond repair and there was absolutely no good that would come from further western intervention.

They were right on that point, between one and two million Vietnamese were killed during the US invasion, that being the usual name for an event where one country sends huge numbers of troops in an attempt to occupy another country.

Frequently right.. about what?

The French are frequently right on subjects such as vinticulture, cuisine, not starting land wars in Indo-china, coiture, and cinematography.

Re:Rimshot

[Valdez]

You must be French.

Re:Rimshot

[RyoSaeba]

Now one could argue that you have a right to be able to copy a piece of intellectual property as backup for personal use, but this is debatable and is not the point you raise.

Actually, under french law, that right is recognized, so it isn't subject to argumentation.

Re:Rimshot

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

I think you have under English law too. The more I think about it the more I think that copy protection is technically unlawful. However, I think that the proportion of people making copies for personal use alone is very small indeed, and the law would probably recognise this and give producers a certain leeway to prevent this, considering it a reasonable protection of interests.

Re:Rimshot

[Grab]

I believe it was Chris Rock, although I don't have the email to hand.

Grab.

Re:Rimshot

[turgid]

From this we can deduce two things, first that the French can be insufferably arrogant for such a small country whose military success under Napoleon turned out to be what the music industry would call a 'one hit wonder', being followed by flop after flop. The only recent successes being in the consolation prize category of 'quickest surrender'. And no Jaques, the magnificent conquest of the Sahara desert does not qualify a country as an empire. The test of an empire is not merely the acreage under occupation, the locals have to actually be at least aware of the occupation.

Why, in this supposedly enlightened and civillised age, do we resort to slanging matches about the imperialist past which bear absolutely no relevance to today's population, in order to be racially derisive?

What the hell has Napoleon got to do with the sale of Compact Discs and the occupation of Iraq?
Also, what has the surrender of the French in the face of a vicious onslaught from evil Nazis got to do with it?

Re:Rimshot

[Zeinfeld]

Why, in this supposedly enlightened and civillised age, do we resort to slanging matches about the imperialist past which bear absolutely no relevance to today's population, in order to be racially derisive?

Racial? I think it is pretty well established that Britain and France are identical race wise. In any case my family originally came from France under William I. I think it is pretty clear you are grasping at straws here.

As for the past having no relevance to the present, those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. In this case it is the profound ignorance of the Bushies as to what imperialism was about that is leading them to behave like 19th century imperialists, right down to the jingoism and the claims that anyone opposed to their schemes hates their country.

How else can Rumsfeld's comment about 'old Europe' be interpreted except as saying that France and Germany are not up to militarist adventures any more?

You and I might think the age of imperialism is dead, but the Whitehouse neo-cons do not. The invasion of Iraq was exactly the type of adventure that Britain or France would have engaged in at the height of imperial fever in 1800 or so, even down to the excuse and the claim that it was merely a punitive expedition.

The maps that showed large splotches of red for the British empire, empire day and even the declaration of the empire itself did not start to appear until 1880 or so when Imperial power was already in decline. The Iraqi 'governing council' is exactly the sort of arrangement that the British prefered as a means of controlling a place. Direct rule was always considered inferior, not least because of the cost.

Cheney's sweetheart contracts with Halliburton are exactly the type of arrangement that the British empire was fought for. Clive of India made himself rich by looting and by extracting punitive taxes from the population. Cecil Rhodes likewise. The Cheney arrangement under which the US taxpayer will bear the cost of occupation while Halliburton will get rich from 'no-bid' contracts and take the lions share of profits from Iraq's oil are exactly the type of deal that empire was all about. The fact that they think this way is demonstrated by the fact that they are now throwing in the possibility of similar treatment in their approach to other nations to try to get them to join the US occupation .

What the hell has Napoleon got to do with the sale of Compact Discs and the occupation of Iraq?

Vanity, French is one of Europe's great cultures, but the political culture is still wedded to the glory of a man who was the Saddam hussein of his day. Napoleon was every bit as evil and tyranical as Saddam.

I have no idea at all where the compact discs came in, they seem to be a somewhat minor issue compared to say, the future of democracy and the republic. Why do you think they are such an important issue to discuss? We discuss the topic of Compact Discs here about three times a week. What do you believe is left to say on the topic? Would you rather continue to discuss the topics decided by the corporation or discuss the real issues of the day, like the reasons that one of our boys is getting killed each day in Iraq and another ten seriously wounded?

Re:Rimshot

[turgid]

Racial? I think it is pretty well established that Britain and France are identical race wise. In any case my family originally came from France under William I. I think it is pretty clear you are grasping at straws here.

That's irrlelvant. I'm Scottish, right back to my great grandparents, except one fly in the ointent who was English. I married an English woman. So what the hell? We all came from the same lightning strike on the same puddle of primordial goo...

I have no idea at all where the compact discs came in, they seem to be a somewhat minor issue compared to say, the future of democracy and the republic. Why do you think they are such an important issue to discuss? We discuss the topic of Compact Discs here about three times a week. What do you believe is left to say on the topic? Would you rather continue to discuss the topics decided by the corporation or discuss the real issues of the day, like the reasons that one of our boys is getting killed each day in Iraq and another ten seriously wounded?

I have many strong opinions on democracy and human rights and I happen to believe that Saddam having his arse kicked to high heaven was no less that he deserved. There uis hypocracy in that we haven't done it to others no less deserving such as Robert Mugabe.

As for our boys getting killed and injured...

They knew what they were letting themselves in for.
A "British life" is no more valuable than an "Iraqi life".
The army exists to defend the country and to give our natural psycopaths, who would otherwise be out murdering, raping and pillaging, something legitimate to do with their time.

I think it is very honourable that these nutters gave their lives to liberate an oppresesed people.

Oil has nothing to do with it, in contrast to what the tree-huggers and God-squad would have us believe. Iraq only produces 3% of the world's oil, and they were banned from exporting most of that...

It sucks how Bush's cronies get all the bucks for rebuilding Iraq. What has that to do with copy-protected CDs?

The world needs to be a decentralised federation of democratic secular states if it is to survive and prosper. Religious nutters take note.

The sooner Africa is liberated the better. Europe and America should offer asylum to each and every African to get them out of that hell-hole of a continent.

... but I'm not allowed to say any of that because IT ISN'T RIGHT.

Hmm

[blitzoid]

Wow, I really don't blame EMI. I mean, who could have known beforehand that they wouldn't work in some extremely common devices? Come on, guys. Testing can only go so far before they have to release it into the real world. And I'm sure that for the tuesday afternoon that they DID test compatability, they were very thorough.

Re:Hmm

[inertia187]

Yeah, I keep forgetting to test my burned CDs in my wife's car. When I get ready to go on a trip, I find that none of my CDs work in her car. I have only myself to blame.

At least this lady has someone to sue.

Re:Hmm

[Matrix272]

And I'm sure that for the tuesday afternoon that they DID test compatability, they were very thorough.

You give them too much credit to say Tuesday Afternoon... I would have said between 12:15pm and 1:45pm on Tuesday afternoon... with lunch in there too. And, since pirates are taking away so much money for research and development of the anti-piracy schemes, they didn't even have a CD Player to test on... so I suspect they looked at a drawing of a CD Player on a chalkboard, and if when they closed their eyes and concentrated really hard, they heard the music playing, they declared it safe to sell.

Re:Hmm

[blitzoid]

Oh please, that 'piracy is bad' excuse is just pissing me off to no end.

Look, if it weren't for filthy pirates like me constantly ripping music and software, the copyprotection industry would STAGNATE. Millions of jobs would be lost, and the economy would start to collapse. The fact is, pirates and mp3 traders are keeping the industry alive. It's anti-economy types like YOU GUYS that are causing the downfall of everything we hold dear!

Re:Hmm

[Matrix272]

The fact is, pirates and mp3 traders are keeping the industry alive.

Exactly! My point exactly! They should be paying us, not suing us! Those filthy, greedy, dirty bastards...

Re:Hmm

[FireBreathingDog]

Let's not forget, these corrupted discs ARE NOT CDs!!!

Clear Labeling of CDs..

[FileNotFound]

There is an Act that if passed will require clear lables on all copy protected CDs. From EFF:

Senator Ron Wyden recently introduced the Digital Consumer Right-to-Know Act (DCRKA), a bill that would require entertainment companies to label products with copy-protections that limit consumer use. Support the DCRKA if you think the content industry should be ordered to clearly label media that restricts your rights!

http://action.eff.org/action/index.asp?step=2&it em =2664

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[samsmithnz]

This act is hardly going to help though. If you buy a CD that is labeled, and then it doesn't work, you're not going to be able to return it, because you were warned before you purchased!!!

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[FileNotFound]

Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway) the clear answer to that is:

"DON'T BUY COPY PROTECTED DISKS"

It's called boycotting and it works.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[siskbc]

This act is hardly going to help though. If you buy a CD that is labeled, and then it doesn't work, you're not going to be able to return it, because you were warned before you purchased!!!

Are you trolling, or on crack? If it's labeled, and you're literate, you wouldn't have bought it at all!

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[ajnlth]

As far as I know it's already so that Copyprotected CD's aren't allowed to use the "Compact Disc" symbol since they don't follow the CD standard.

Might just be fun to go into a record store and ask why they put a disc that clearly isn't a CD (no label) in the CD-section.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd prefer a warning label which says something like "This disc does comply with the ???? Book standard governing the manufacture of CDs. Consequently, it will not work in all playback equipment."

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Anonymous Coward]

In the meantime, is there any web page or the like where someone is compiling a list of copy protected CD's?... would be a wonderful start to avoiding getting ripped off like this while we wait for legislation, then wait for old stock to be updated.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Simon Lyngshede]

Doesn't most companies already do this. I seen a lot of CDs with a notice saying something like "This compact disc does not fully conform with Philips Red Book specifications" or "This product features copy control technology. It is intended for use in standard home CD players and may not play on other devices, especially computer drives."

Now what would be create is if they use really large letters when writing these labels. You can barely read them as they are now.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Le Marteau]

Might just be fun to go into a record store and ask why they put a disc that clearly isn't a CD (no label) in the CD-section.

What are you, a masochist? Have you seen the people they hire in record stores these days? I don't know about you, but if I wanted to make a point, it wouldn't be with one of those simpletons.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[ichimunki]

No kidding. These are the people who always ask me if I need help finding stuff and I'm usually left wondering... is alphabetical order really that complicated?

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Anonymous Coward]

"DON'T BUY COPY PROTECTED DISKS"

It's called boycotting and it works.

Don't buy any _NEW_ CDs or DVDs. Buy only used. Borrow your friends CDs and copy them. Send a couple of bucks to the musicians. Fuck the music industry. It's time for them to die.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Aadain2001]

No, then the RIAA will just blame piracy for the drop in sales, like always, and press Congress/law enforcement agenecies to track down these horrible pirates to protect their old and failing business model. They've done it before, they'll do it again. And again. And again. And again. And...

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[jsfetzik]

Check out the list at Fat Chuck's

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[NanoGator]

"It's called boycotting and it works."

No it won't. Every CD not sold will be accounted for by piracy. Buy the CD and take it back, that'll perk their ears up.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Spellbinder]

IMHO i would like to know the players which can play those discs
they should have to delivere a list of those players on every cd (or better not cd) case

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[FileNotFound]

Fine, let them blame piracy.

If it's piracy then the "protection" obviously isn't working.

Boycotting will do some good,,,

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[carlos_benj]

It's called boycotting and it works.

Not if you don't let them know you're boycotting. As another poster said, they'll blame the lost sales on other things. It might be better to buy copy protected CD's and then return them for a refund with an explanation that it didn't work, or that you didn't realize it was copy protected and you don't buy copy protected CD's (to ensure compatibility with future hardware purchases).

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[swordgeek]

The only way this would work is thus:

1) All playback media that _looked_ like a CD but wasn't would have to have a label on the front in large letters saying, "THIS IS NOT A CD. IT MAY NOT PLAY IN YOUR CD PLAYER."

2) All such media would have to be shelved separately in the stores. There would be a CD section, and an "other" section.

What I don't understand is why Phillips can't sue for the misuse of their physical format, even if it's not labelled as a CD. It's pretty clear that these things are intended to be almost exactly like a CD, but violate the standard (and hence, not always work.) This is damaging to Phillips, damaging to their product, and damaging to the (real) CD format.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[theefer]

No protection will ever prevent people from ripping the music and put it on P2P networks. At least, as long as you can listen to the CD (be it on a HiFi, a PC, etc). I'm looking forward to the day the protection will actually prevent people from listening to the music they bought.

Stupid ? I don't know, we're not really far from there honestly. I cannot even record the latest copy-protected CD I bought onto a minidisc.

All they can do it make it always more difficult to grab (eg. requiring a digital connection between the HiFi-Computer). But they cannot stop piracy. They never have, and never will.

In my opinion, it is perfectly normal for them to try to prevent piracy (it's illegal, and bad, remember?). What is not normal is that I cannot listen to the music I buy the way I want (in OGG format, on my minidisc player, in my car, on my computer) !

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Aadain2001]

You are an evil, evil person! How dare you steal money out of the mouths of artists! You must pay for each medium in which you listen to music! It's only fair.

Act now and the RIAA will let you buy a one month listening pass for listening to any music that might float your way through the air for only $699! What a deal! Act now before it goes up to $1499 this October!

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[blibbleblobble]

"Check out the list at Fat Chuck's"

Interesting to see how Linkin Park have come so quickly to embrace crippled CDs, so soon after they became profitiable on the back of free downloads at MP3.com

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[iantri]

For christ's sake, you know, I know, the employee knows, your brother knows, everyone knows that if it's a silvery-looking thing that is 12cm wide and has music on it, it's a CD!

What exactly is the point of doing this? Do forks have to be labelled 'fork' for you to know it is a fork?

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[canajin56]

One of the proposed solutions to the so called "Analog hole" is to make CD players only output an encrypted, digital signal. And make the speakers/headphones have a a decryptor build right in to them.
Of course, you could open up your speaker, and use the wires that were connected to the drivers as an analog signal...but then you would go to jail for 5 years for violating the DMCA :D

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[ziriyab]

If the CD is clearly labeled (as the parent post suggests), then taking it back would just get RTFL (read the fookin' label) looks from the sales clerk, lawyers, and judges.

You are right, though. The RIAA would blame declining sales on piracy. It's a no-win situation.

In my rockstar dreams, I win a grammy (an RIAA marketting tool), go up to claim it, then smash it with a long anti-RIAA diatribe. One can dream, but realistically, if more musicians used direct sales and did their own promotions without going through parasitic record companies, then the RIAA would disappear.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Anonymous Coward]

What I don't understand is why Phillips can't sue for the misuse of their physical format, even if it's not labelled as a CD. It's pretty clear that these things are intended to be almost exactly like a CD, but violate the standard (and hence, not always work.) This is damaging to Phillips, damaging to their product, and damaging to the (real) CD format. They can't sue because their patent on the CD expired awhile ago. Therefore, it's ripe and open for "improvements". They could sue for misuse of the "compact disc digital audio" trademark {different laws for patents and trade marks}, but the distinctive 12cm. disc was never registered as a trade mark, and it's way too late to try now, even at the US patent and trademark office ....

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[lokedhs]

It could be a DVD you know.

Thank god the packages are different or we would have millions of "consumers" playing The Matrix in their car CD-players.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[alexq]

would there be any way to clearly indicate that a CD was not selling because of a boycot on its copyprotection, rather than simply because it's not a good CD (or not commercially successful, etc)?

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[amRadioHed]

OT, but as a music store employee I have to comment... ...is alphabetical order really that complicated?
You woulnd't think so, but nevertheless a large percent of the customers in music stores don't put any effort at all into putting cd's back where they came from. Now, if the customers just left stacks of CD in a pile on the floor or on a counter, then it wouldn't be much of a problem. Sure, I would desire to inflict great suffering on them, but the discs could still be easily put back where they belong with no problem. However, the customers aren't happy leaving them in a stack somewhere, instead they put them back in the completely wrong section on the opposite end of the store, thus when someone needs to find the disc it is impossible to locate. I even had a customer complain about not being able to find a CD that I know for a fact he was looking at earlier in the day, but of course he just dropped it off in the Soul section (i found it later) when he previously decided he wasn't going to buy it.

Obviously, the employees do what they can to find cds that are misfiled, but the customers have us vastly outnumbered.

I have been told that our store is actually quite well organized compared to others, so I probably shouldn't take your commment personally, however my store is still not as good as I would like it to be. It's a never ending job. (/rant)

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[iantri]

Is The Matrix music?

No?

This sort of thing won't be a problem until DVD-Audio (or SACD) becomes mainstream.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[lokedhs]

My post was a (failed?) attempt of trying to be funny while pointing out the average intelligence level of the average consumer.

Maybe it's just me... I've never had a single post being modded up as "funny". I should really stop trying.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Nucleon500]

If the crippled discs were clearly labled, then boycotting would in fact work, even if it was completely unorganized. It wouldn't just be Slashdot readers, even the ones who buy normal discs, not buying the crippled discs. You can bet that any consumer who can read will, after having a CD not work in his car or his computer, not buy crippled CDs. The industry would see a huge decline in crippled CD sales, but only a small decline in normal CD sales (the new people who reject CDs on principle). Then the industry would clearly see (even if they wouldn't admit it) that all other things being equal, DRM doesn't sell. Maybe it would encourage them to offer non-DRM online music, which I'd buy in a heartbeat.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Nucleon500]

Even more interesting would be a record store that had seperate, clearly marked racks for CDs and non-CDs, and have a clerk explain the fiasco to the confused customers. Educate the public! An indie rack would be nice, too.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[iantri]

Sorry, then. These things don't come through very clearly in text.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Brian Boitano]

even DVDs?

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[turgid]

It's called boycotting and it works.

It's been flogged to death.

It will not work. Sales will go down. The companies will blame loss of sales on piracy. Politicians will introduce more draconian legislation that further erodes our rights and artists will be deprived of a source of income.
Now, get on with your homework young man. When you're finished you can mow the lawn or there'll be no pocket money for you, my lad.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[samsmithnz]

I was talking about the 'average' consumer...

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Sique]

You are right, though. The RIAA would blame declining sales on piracy. It's a no-win situation.

But if you don't buy music, and the copy protection schemes are somehow working (thus blocking out legitimate CD players) and the piracy rates as measured by the consulting companies are dropping, then the argument with the Piracy Kills Music sounds somewhat hollow.

Just buying laws doesn't sell music, and the companies forming RIAA are still mostly in the business to sell music. Buying law costs money and doesn't generate revenue.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[tybalt44]

This is an interesting idea. While a suit under patent is obviously a non-starter, and a trademark suit difficult to litigate unless they were using the specific registered marks, a suit under the common-law doctrine of "passing off" could certainly be launched.

"Passing off", in simple terms, is a doctrine that allows someone engaged in trade to sue someone for attempting to "pass off" their goods as yours. In essence, it protects you from having someone erode your goodwill.

However, I don't know what rights or interests Phillips has in the CD format anymore. Can they command licence fees, etc.? If they own trademarks on "compact disc audio" you might be able to start a fire with that. Generally, though, I'd say OUTLOOK NOT SO GOOD. But it's an interesting thought.

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Sanction]

You boycott, I'll bribe a senator. Care to bet which one gets results? ;)

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[Feztaa]

Or, you could just set up a microphone in front of your speakers...

But then of course, they would pass laws saying that all speakers must only output digital audio (just think: 'cat file.mp3 > /dev/dsp'), and then have genetically-modified ears that can decode the digital audio that you hear into real music...

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[nyseal]

Now THAT'S a novel idea. Can you return an opened CD?

Re:Clear Labeling of CDs..

[NanoGator]

Typically, no. It'd have to be unopened. Besides, you don't want to make the media unsellable. The problem is the store that sells it is the one that takes it in the shorts, not the RIAA.

The goal here is to have retailers say "We sold a million dollars worth of CDs one day and the next day they were returned." That's one million dollars of boycott damage that the RIAA cannot blame on piracy.

I'm surprised...

[trompete]

that they got their money back, considering that most of those CDs have warning labels on them like a PC with an 'X' through it.
I guess that if a woman can get millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself, someone else can get a refund for a CD that they couldn't play in their computer.
I hope this encourages record labels to stop making that type of CD!!

Re:I'm surprised...

[SydShamino]

Obligatory links to TRUTH about McDonald's case whenever a person speaks of it based on IGNORANCE:

http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_m cdonalds.htm

Re:I'm surprised...

[Anonymous Coward]

So a symbol with a PC with an "X" through it is supposed to communicate clearly to consumers that the CD won't work IN A CAR STEREO?

Unless the CD said is was designed to fail in the type of equipment she tried to use it in, I think there is definitely a reasonable consumer expectation that a CD will produce music if placed in a CD player, unless otherwise notified. Call me kooky.

Re:I'm surprised...

[Qzukk]

Obligatory pointing out the OBVIOUS about the McDonald's case:

The woman was still stupid and should have been at greater fault (she was found to be partially at fault and the reward was reduced proportionally) because opening hot coffee in your lap is stupid regardless of the temperature.

The fact that the coffee was hot enough to give third degree burns doesn't make this any less stupid. Do you think she would have cared what temperature the coffee was at when she did this? If the sign had said "Warning: Coffee causes third degree burns" do you think she would have acted differently? Assuming she's mentally stable she doesn't go around her daily life deciding whether to do things or not based on how bad a burn she gets ("Gee, I should touch the hot stove, I only get a second degree burn this way!") so why was this important for her coffee?

Re:I'm surprised...

[geekoid]

actually, McDonalds was held accountable because they were told to lower the temerature of there coffee, and ignored it.

No one is expected to be served coffee so hot it will put you in the hospital for 3 weeks.

Lets not forget that McDonalds is selling this coffee to people in there car, with lids that can be difficult to open up.

the issue is not that she spilled coffee. it is that she was purchased a product that was dangerous, and the company she bought it from knew it was dangerous.

Is opening up a cup of coffee over your lap the smartest thing? perhaps not. But why would you sell something at a drive thru-window that people would have to get out of there car to open?

Re:I'm surprised...

[squarooticus]

: Is opening up a cup of coffee over your lap the
: smartest thing? perhaps not. But why would you sell
: something at a drive thru-window that people would
: have to get out of there car to open?

Because if you are able to accomplish this feat of legerdemain without burning yourself (as 99.9% of people seem able to do), then you should have right to buy your coffee piping hot. Stupid and/or clumsy people have the choice to buy their coffee from restaurants that don't make it so hot. Don't take away the rights of the vast, vast majority to get their coffee hot, the way they like it.

It's attitudes like this ("Everything that's gone wrong in my life is someone else's fault") that makes life in the US so stressful and expensive for those of us who think it isn't right to blame someone else for everything.

Things are seriously at the point now that I can't even leave a hedge trimmer sitting on the floor near a window for fear that someone I didn't invite into my home (i.e., a burglar) would accidentally cut off his fingers and successfully sue me for damages encountered in the process of his performing an illegal act. The stress of having to worry about every little thing that I could possibly be sued for is the clearest argument (IMO) for tort reform.

Re:I'm surprised...

[FireBreathingDog]

So a symbol with a PC with an "X" through it is supposed to communicate clearly to consumers that the CD won't work IN A CAR STEREO?

Besides, what if she had a Mac and not a PC?

Does "No PC" also communicate "No Mac"? Not necessarily...

Re:I'm surprised...

[Mikeytsi]

Have you ever heard of a cupholder? You know, that thing you can stick drinks in to?

Re:I'm surprised...

[sholden]

Do you think she would have cared what temperature the coffee was at when she did this?

Yes.

If the sign had said "Warning: Coffee causes third degree burns" do you think she would have acted differently?

Yes. Though that would still be stupid, a cup which has enough structural rigidity to not collapse without the lid would be a better solution.

Assuming she's mentally stable she doesn't go around her daily life deciding whether to do things or not based on how bad a burn she gets ("Gee, I should touch the hot stove, I only get a second degree burn this way!") so why was this important for her coffee?

That's exactly what everyone does.

I don't put on safety gloves when I get a can of coke from a vending machine. I assume it will be cold but not so cold as to hurt me. If the vending machine operator decided that keeping the cans in liquid nitrogen made them last longer I would expect some warning about the unexpected temperature the cans would be.

When I buy a coffee I expect it to be reasonably hot and I take suitable care. I don't tip it over my head, for example. However, I don't put on safety gear before buying my morning coffee. I don't make sure everybody around me keeps at least a meter away. Since I know if someone bumps into me and my coffee splashes onto my chest it won't do serious damage - it'll just wet my shirt. If the coffee vendor decided that the coffee would be better if it was acidic enough to eat through clothing and skin, then I would expect some warning - and I would take more precautions...

When I buy a slice of pizza I don't test the temperature with a thermometer. I assume it is at a suitable temperature for eating, though the first bite might be a bit careful in case the cheese is too hot. I assume it isn't hot enough to burn my hand through the plate as I hold it though.

Everyone I see does numerous things everyday that are slightly risky because the potential damage is small enough to not be worth taking more care.

If the potential damage of those actions suddenly increased they would want some warning.

I've spilt coffee on myself before. All it did was make my clothes a bit wet. I've never spilt any potent acids on myself (even though I used them way back when I was doing chem. eng.). I must have been more careful with the acid than with the coffee. I did exactly what you seem to think is abnormal. I figured wearing safety gear and being very precise about my movements wasn't necessary when I was carrying the cup of coffee down the hall, because the damage it could do (making me wet) wasn't worth the hassle.

Then again, maybe you walk around in a plastic bubble (after all you could catch a virus and die - that's a pretty serious thing) and handle your hot coffee and cold coke with tongs.

Re:I'm surprised...

[lawpoop]

Nobody should be distributing 180 - 190 F liquids to the public FOR ANY REASON, ESPECIALLY AS A FOOD PRODUCT! This is not just 'hot coffee', this is scalding liquids which caused 3rd degree burns. If you had to work with 180 liquids as a part of your job, you would have protective gear and OSHAA regulations all over the place. Why do people think McDonalds should get away with handing this stuff out to people in the drive through?

Re:I'm surprised...

[squarooticus]

So if your estimate is that 1 in 1000 people burn themselves, how many cups of coffee are sold per day? Divide that by a thousand, and multiply it by the cost of a casualty department treating burns.

Those individuals' insurance companies should pay for that cost, and those individuals' premiums should go up as a result of the economic consequences of their risky behavior. I shouldn't have my liberties reduced because some people are dumb.

What, you've never fallen over?

I'm smart enough not to buy 190 degree coffee, because I know I'm clumsy! As one of my friends said recently, people should not be able to use the courts to turn their stupidity into an asset.

Re:I'm surprised...

[drakaan]

I guess that if a woman can get millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself...

Actually, it was less than $640,000, and it's not *quite* the story you've been led to believe, but there are plenty of bogus lawsuits around.

Re:I'm surprised...

[lokedhs]

I guess that if a woman can get millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself, someone else can get a refund for a CD that they couldn't play in their computer.

If she spilled the hot coffee, then obviously her computers cup holder is broken... No refund!

Re:I'm surprised...

[goon america]

Don't take away the rights of the vast, vast majority to get their coffee hot, the way they like it.

The point was it was so hot no human being could consume it safely. That woman had third degree burns on the insides of her legs. Do you have an asbestos mouth?

Re:I'm surprised...

[SydShamino]

1. If McDonald's had turned the coffee maker up to 190 THAT DAY, and had no idea that it was dangerous, I would agree with you that she was more at fault.

2. If the coffee was served in a cup with a lid that wasn't PARTIALLY MELTED from the heat, I would agree with you. (Might be hard to open a coffee with the lid partially melted unless you can get some leverage on it, especially as an old lady.)

However,

1. The McDonald's had been WARNED REPEATEDLY that their coffee was dangerously and unexpectedly hot, and they refused to change. That INCREASES their fault.

2. If the coffee had been at an EXPECTED temperature - 140 degrees - and she opened it in her lap, she probably would have still spilled it. In that case, though, the coffee would have cooled long before it even hurt her.

The fault is not in the SPILLING of the coffee, it is in the BURNS from the coffee. Her spilling it was partially to blame for the burns. The McDonald's was also partially to blame for the burns.

Someone else on this thread mentioned that, when you buy a "cold Coke" from a vending maching, you expect it to be cold. If the owner of a vending maching decided to use liquid nitrogen to cool his Cokes instead, and when you picked it up the flesh on your hand froze and fell off, would you be 100% at fault? After all, you didn't take precautions with a "cold" object. Might the vendor be at least 40% at fault? If he had been warned that what he was doing was dangerous, might he be at least 60% at fault?

Re:I'm surprised...

[HuguesT]

I'm sure that you are very smart, but even very smart people get tired and do stupid things. Ever been involved in a car accident? Did you feel stupid afterwards? How can you be so sure that you will never do anything stupid, ever?

It's not about people being smart or stupid. It's about a company that sells dangerous product because of a bottom line issue. People never asked for scalding hot coffee, no one can drink 190 degree coffee. Nobody's liberties are being affected by this verdict. Instead a less dangerous product is now being sold, that is still hot (150 degrees!) and that will not give you 3rd degree burns if you spill it on you by accident.

The woman was awared 3 million bucks NOT because she was stupid. She was a typical victim (more than 700 had been burned by that coffee) of a callous company. McDonalds was fined 3 million bucks and told each new victim would cost them as much from now on unless they changed their act.

One day you might be grateful. Think about it.

Re:I'm surprised...

[squarooticus]

All I have to say is:

IN-SUR-ANCE

Which part of that don't you understand? You buy insurance to protect you financially against errors in judgment, of which I consider this one. McDonald's is not at fault for providing a product that many millions of customers love. Can't you see the weight of numbers against your argument? As far as I am concerned, the same goes for cigarettes, although an argument can be made for fraud in that instance.

Re:I'm surprised...

[Ptraci]

Do they have a car with an 'X' through it? because that's where she couldn't play it, in the CD player in her car.

Re:I'm surprised...

[turgid]

Things are seriously at the point now that I can't even leave a hedge trimmer sitting on the floor near a window for fear that someone I didn't invite into my home (i.e., a burglar) would accidentally cut off his fingers and successfully sue me for damages encountered in the process of his performing an illegal act. The stress of having to worry about every little thing that I could possibly be sued for is the clearest argument (IMO) for tort reform.

But I thought you were allowed to shoot burglars dead in the USA? Is it OK to kill them but not to cut off a few of their fingers accidentally?

Re:I'm surprised...

[TheRealSync]

You don't drink much coffee, do you? Coffee is supposed to be HOT HOT HOT!!!

Re:I'm surprised...

[slaida1]

When I buy a coffee I expect it to be reasonably hot and I take suitable care.

Great. Go find a place where they sell coffee labeled "reasonably hot". I believe otherwise you'd sue anyone including, but not limited to, your grandmother for making you one boiling hot cuppa' coffee. And for no less than 3 fucking million dollars! Remember, justice is blind and equal for everyone. Sue Her! Get Rich!

Re:I'm surprised...

[ArcSecond]

No, dumbass, if you had ever read the judges comments from the "coffee lawsuit", you would know he slammed McDonalds for SYSTEMATICALLY serving coffee at temperatures it KNEW were causing customers sever burns. They ignored the problem, soemthing went wrong, and they lost in court because they were too stupid to turn down the heat on their coffee. Poor McDonalds.

The REAL tragedy is that this case is used as an example of frivilous lawsuits, and it is by and large gobbled up by rubes like you.

Re:I'm surprised...

[QuackQuack]

I've never seen a coffee maker with a temperature control. The water needs to be a certain temperature to brew properly. Also, in the morning, coffee in commercial establishments usually doesn't sit in the pot long enough to cool down.

Also health departments often mandate that foods be at least a certain temperature (160 farenheit, I think) for safety reasons, when they come in for inspection, and take the temperature, if it's too low, you CAN get shut down. I don't know if this applies to coffee, though.

I don't know all the specifics in the McDonald case, but from what I do know of the food industry, if there's any liability, it should be against some combination of the coffee machine maker, health department, and/or cup/lid maker rather than McDonalds. But I'm not surprised because I know the deepest pockets are the ones usually targetted for liability rather than the true culprits.

Re:I'm surprised...

[Sanction]

How is it an error in judgement to assume that a hot drink is served at a reasonable temperature? It was 190 degrees! This is not, repeat NOT, a normal temperature for any hot drink served at the _vast_ majority of resteraunts worldwide. This is a temp that _no human being_ could safely drink liquid at. Would it also be an "error in judgement" to assume that the next can of Coke I buy does not contain a level of acid that would eat through my clothing instantly if spilled?

Most people have trouble affording medical insurance, now they should have to ensure against companies selling dangerous products, against all industry standards. Oh, and I doubt that millions of people "love" their coffee, yuck!

Re:I'm surprised...

[sholden]

Actually I drink a reasonable amount of coffee.

Coffee is not supposed to be "HOT HOT HOT". Unless you want that bitter burnt flavour, instead of wonderful coffee goodness.

Anything over about 95C (203F) is far too hot and will be burnt and only worthy of being tipped down the drain.

Now 95C is "HOT HOT HOT" in my book, but that's the temperature of the water at the time of contact with the coffee. And more importantly is for espresso. The oils that give coffee its taste boil off if the temperature is kept too high. The temperature will be lower than 95C when it finally reaches your mouth.

If you like crappy tasting, bitter, burnt coffee then lucky you - you can probably drink the garbage they sell at most places and don't have to hunt down good coffee. I however, like coffee to taste like coffee.

Re:I'm surprised...

[sholden]

No I wouldn't. And neither did the woman involved in the McDonalds case.

The bulk of the award was punitive damages. Awarded because numerous people had been burnt in the past and McDonalds had refused to change their practices and stated they would not in the future.

Personally I think punitive damages are a stupid system. But that's the system that exists and that's the way it works.

If the coffee was inadvertantly made too hot then there would be such damages - it would be an accident and accidents happen (well I guess in America there would still be a case, since apparently accidents don't happen over there - it's always someone's fault).

france surrenders

[Anonymous Coward]

don't worry, next week the riaa will send to france a man wielding a sharp stick and german accent to sort this mess out.

Allright, finally.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the tide is changing, media corporations in Europe don't have as much of a stranglehold on the government as they do in the U.S., although that's not to say that corporations don't have control in Europe. They do, it's just different corporations than we have here. All in all, this is pretty nice for the French, but we're still stuck in the U.S. without a viable way to challenge copyprotected cds.

Duh.

[turkeyphant]

Hence the hoorays. I know everyone agrees with me.

Is the tide changing?

[Jason1729]

It's good to see not all countries have turned themselves over to corporate interests, but a victory in France (which doesn't exactly have a history of putting foreign corporate interests ahead of their own citizens) doesn't say much about the tide in the US.

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:Is the tide changing?

[Otter]

My understanding was that in the US, stores will routinely give you a refund for CDs that don't work in your system. I don't know at what level that policy was implemented (by the RIAA or by the big chains) but Mac sites have been dealing with this issue for a while, as Apple CD-Rs seem to have a lot of problems with the new discs, and there doesn't seem to be any issue getting refunds.

Re:Is the tide changing?

[selderrr]

doh ? And who says the tide in the US is to anyones interest ouside the US ? For all I care, DRM can be enforced on everything in the US, as long as Europe sticks to its senses. In fact, that's what it's going to with US vs Asia. No way that Asia is ever going to DRM stuff that's intenede for bigbucks flowing to the US.
And just maybe, that's where your only hope lies : Europe & Asia NOT DRMing and exporting to a black US market. Remember that US alcohol fiasco some 80-70 years ago ? You guys are geniusses at fucking over consumers whilst creating a market for the mob.

Call me a troll, but if you're honest you'll admit that US politics holds world record in screwing its own people while trying to control the world market.

Re:Is the tide changing?

[IM6100]

DRM is about 'protecting content' from illegal copying. Content producers who release their creative output in DRM-protected formats just won't release their work to non-DRM protected localities.

Perhaps foreign countries will cease to want to view American films and listen to American music. It would certainly be wrong for the US Government to force American culture on markets that don't welcome it. Just as wrong as it would be for foreign markets to pirate said content by allowing it to be published without DRM protection. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I sure as hell hope the US government isn't planning on 'enforcing' DRM rights with gunboat diplomacy.

Re:Is the tide changing?

[FireBreathingDog]

Call me a troll, but if you're honest you'll admit that US politics holds world record in screwing its own people while trying to control the world market.

I hate DRM as much as the next guy...but, to play devil's advocate, the U.S. is far and away the largest producer and exporter of the intellectual property that DRM protects.

If France was the largest exporter of movies and music, are you telling me that France would not try to protect that industry? Come on!

If you think the U.S. is the only country that acts in its own self-interest, you are either naive, ignorant or delusional.

France, after all, is the only country I know of that has a government agency dedicated to rewriting the language to prevent "foreign" influences in verbiage. With that kind of proprietary, xenophobic attitude, don't you think that if France had America's entertainment industry, they'd also take steps to protect it?

Re:Is the tide changing?

[Mikeytsi]

Or if you know how macs work, and know that a simple keystroke on boot-up will kick a disc out of the drive.

Or hell, you could have just read the manual, but who does that?

Re:Is the tide changing?

[david_reese]

I hate DRM as much as the next guy...but, to play devil's advocate, the U.S. is far and away the largest producer and exporter of the intellectual property that DRM protects.

If France was the largest exporter of movies and music, are you telling me that France would not try to protect that industry? Come on!

If you think the U.S. is the only country that acts in its own self-interest, you are either naive, ignorant or delusional.

France, after all, is the only country I know of that has a government agency dedicated to rewriting the language to prevent "foreign" influences in verbiage. With that kind of proprietary, xenophobic attitude, don't you think that if France had America's entertainment industry, they'd also take steps to protect it?

Perhaps you should examine why they don't have a situation where they "export intellectual property"... perhaps the US's concept of "intellectual property" doesn't exactly sound reasonable to the EU countries? An extreme analogy: would you still defend the US's stance if they were practicing slavery, for example?

Instead of claiming that the US is simply defending it's interests, you might want to consider the fundamental principles that differ between the US and the EU. Here are some examples:

• US dislikes EU privacy
• EU says no to GM foods from the US

Re:Is the tide changing?

[DaedalusHKX]

You know the strangest thing?

I thought he said "France was acting in the interest of ITS people while the USA as usual sacrifices its people for the interests of the few... namely the big election dollars". The french take more active interest in everything occuring in their society (and there's less of them so by numbers its a higher percentage of educated people there).

That said yes France acts in its own interest. Its just that the EU's educated populace has more say in what is done to/for them, or seems to (save the UK where Blair rules supreme and at the right hand of George W. (no not the hero, the current US overlord).

-DaedalusHKX

PS - CONTRARY to your ignorant opinion... other countries produce media as well, the difference is that most of it is affordable and even more is obscure. That is not the case with OUR products which are hyped to hell and back. Our media industry spends everything on advertising and thus saturates the airwaves with a few good (sometimes) tunes that sell overpriced cds featuring bland content to a market that would prefer to pay their rent rather than pay 20 bucks for 7 tracks (if you're lucky) of overpriced crap. Same goes for movies... they're coming out at the rate of dozens per month, but they're all crap, with the cream of the crop being "feel good" stuff that isn't really worth the 8 bucks. I'm planning on boycotting the shitty ones and sticking with the good ones. Figure I can probably borrow a copy from a friend or watch it once it hits the rentals.

Face it, the 60's is gone, we lost the morals but kept the weed.

Re:Is the tide changing?

[FireBreathingDog]

Face it, the 60's is gone, we lost the morals but kept the weed.

Sounds like we got the better end of that deal. Who the hell likes abiding by morals anyway? No fun!

Re:Is the tide changing?

[Mikeytsi]

Well, the key sequence should do a force eject. If not, smack the user in the head for being a moron, and make sure they get an adapter if they want to stick tiny cd's in there again.

Viva la France!

[macshune]

Hey, we got the bomb now! We'll never surrender! Screw you EMI!

Re:Viva la France!

[Hatta]

As long as you don't start catapulting livestock.

If it's defective - isn't a recall in order?

[machinecraig]

Seems like they've proved that EMI made defective disks, shouldn't a recall be necessary?

Re:If it's defective - isn't a recall in order?

[syncrus]

Seems like they've proved that EMI made defective disks, shouldn't a recall be necessary?

Have you read/seen Fight Club? To make it simple, before making a recall a company would make an stimation of how much it would cost them to get back the product in the street, as well as how much they would eventually have to pay in concept of fines and eventual refunds due to a defective product. And hey, the book/movie brings this point regarding defective cars that would cause eventual death, not just data containers that do not correspond to what they should.

(Music) companies only care about benefit.

EMI response

[MCS]

I actually e-mailed EMI about the copy protection on the new Jane's addiction CD. Here is the reply I have recieved:

"We are in receipt of your email and regret you have experienced a problem with one of our products.

The technology we are using is designed to ensure that the disc plays on multiple devices. There have been playability problems with a very small number of players, but the vast majority of these problems have been fixable by our technology suppliers as they are constantly updating and improving the technology that is included in the copy controlled discs.

As long as consumers alert us to the problem we will endeavor to adapt the copy control technology.

Please forward your address as we search for a replacement from another territory. Thank you.

Regards,

Emi Music Canada
Quality Control Dept
1 (866) 553-0220"

Re:EMI response

[mopslik]

You're luckier than I was. I contacted EMI Canada about several of their defective discs, only to receive several suggestions to upgrade my CD players and/or operating system. Sorry, no sale there.

Re:EMI response

[MCS]

If it helps any, here is the letter I sent:
---
To: qc@emimusic.ca
Subject: A message from CapitolMusic.ca

Sent to Department: manufacturing

To whom it may concern:

I recently purchased the CD Jane's Addiction: Strays at my local Best Buy. This CD was released in Canada through EMI Canada. While the music on the CD is stunning, I cannot help but feel angered/frustrated by the lengths I have had to go through in order to hear it. The physical CD itself does not allow it to be read on my Rio Volt CD player, while my I-Book will play all but the first track. During the 3:49 of the first track all I hear is silence. It was only with luck that my girlfriends car stereo could play the CD as it was meant to be heard.

Why have I had such trouble listening to this CD? It is because of how it was manufactured. It was produced in a non-standard way in order to give it "copy control". While I fully understand the company or artist desire to protect their music, it does not excuse the sale of a product that does meet universal CD Audio standards. Why should I the consumer suffer, and not be able to play the CD in it's entirety on any CD player I own? Because of this problem, I now refuse to buy any CDs with "Copy Control" and will recommend to my friends and anyone who listens to follow suit with me.

Re:EMI response

[mopslik]

The physical CD itself does not allow it to be read on my Rio Volt CD player...

This is exactly my main source of grief. I've been using my Volt as my main CD player because it handles MP3s. As you have found out, a number of newer CDs don't like it very much.

Re:EMI response

[gl4ss]

nice.. though there is a way to ensure that it runs on every cd player, just make the product as cd's are meant to be!

though, eventually (and already) the 'copy protection' just prevents normal listening and copying on few devices while the cd continues to be copyable on other drives(my sister needed to backup one cd once, apparently the cd did have copy protection but it didn't interfere at all with raw copy of it, i did leave the data track out though that was at the end of the disc). the copyprotection vendors are just cashing on in the big record companies selling false hopes anyways, bad copyprotection is just inconvience to the real customer, not to the freeloaders.

Re:EMI response

[MCS]

On the positive side, once you take the protected CD and manage to get it into MP3 Format, the volt should have no problem.

Re:EMI response

[mopslik]

I considered that, but keeping the disc would only send the message that selling these crippled discs is acceptable. My morals may be low, but they surface from time to time. :)

Re:EMI response

[MCS]

Forget where I saw this, but essetnially what you said is the same as "I am the customer, not the enemy"

Re:EMI response

[mopslik]

I have returned all crippled discs, sans ripping. My beef isn't about my ability to make backups (which is easy to do), but the fact that the discs won't play in perfectly valid hardware. Retaining a copy after returning the original only supports the RIAA's piracy claims. If the music industry wants to pursue their copy-protected agenda, fine. If bands start to suffer from people not buying their music, then maybe they'll speak up and put a little pressure on their contract-makers not to produce the discs.

Ripping-then-returning can't help the cause any. Remember to play fair.

CDs Death March

[Sophrosyne]

Once (and if) Apple gets their iTunes music store over to windows, and into international markets we will slowly begin to see the CD market go the way of the horse and buggy.
The market has been declining for years due to high prices, and formulaic content... there is still a possibility record labels may become more innovative and profitable with newer technologies.
I think that it's about time these huge record labels had some sense knocked into them (even if it is by the french government).

Re:CDs Death March

[Phroggy]

Once (and if) Apple gets their iTunes music store over to windows, and into international markets...

If? Has there actually been any doubt about the Windows port being available within the next 4 months as promised? As for international markets, I wouldn't be surprised if they're unable to enter some markets due to licensing issues, but I'm pretty sure they'll figure something out in most places. Has anyone heard suggestions to the contrary?

Re:CDs Death March

[advocate_one]

Once (and if) Apple gets their iTunes music store over to windows, and into international markets we will slowly begin to see the CD market go the way of the horse and buggy.

This guy's having a go at selling on what he's "bought" from iTunes. Claiming that the doctrine of "First Sale" allows him to sell it on. (www.theinquirer.net)

This one could be interesting as well... :)

Re:CDs Death March

[Zork the Almighty]

Or Freenet will be outlawed (imagine THAT in the good old US of A), and the media companies, under immunity from prosecution, will put hundreds stealth nodes on Freenet to collect IP addresses for federal cases.

Re:CDs Death March

[3terrabyte]

but when there's enough bandwidth to make p2p like Freenet useable

Unfortunately, I feel that once the bandwidth is available to make Freenet useable, then it will be considered "a problem", and dealt with as we've seen every other problem dealt with. Throw in a huge USA-Today kiddie porn story, and it'll be toast.

Re:CDs Death March

[whatch durrin]

From his eBay listing:

Because of limitations to iTunes Music Store, this song cannot be shipped outside of the United States. Sorry Dutch Double Dutch Bus fans!"

How would this stop him from selling it internationally? He's not acting as a distributor of music for the artist.

Re:CDs Death March

[Esion Modnar]

we will slowly begin to see the CD market go the way of the horse and buggy

Of course, this assumes 100% penetration of the PC and Mac into everyone's homes. Believe it or not, there are people who have no clue what an iPod is.

Re:CDs Death March

[dontbgay]

The market has been declining for years due to high prices, and formulaic content... there is still a possibility record labels may become more innovative and profitable with newer technologies.

*bends over* And I'm still waiting on the monkies to fly outta my butt.

Is the tide changing?"

[FreeLinux]

You are kidding, right? Do you honestly believe that EMI, let alone the record industry as a whole, is going to change their practices because of a single insignificant law suite that cost them a single CD and court costs? Here comes the clue train.

This will have no impact on them whatever. They will continue with business as usual and for each returned CD that they get, they will sell millions.

The only way for there to be a "changing tide" is if they are seriously affected monetarily, as in a major drop in sales, or if they are legally bound by a class action suite or something similar.

Re:Is the tide changing?"

[Kaimelar]

Quoth the poster:

The only way for there to be a "changing tide" is if they are seriously affected monetarily, as in a major drop in sales . . .

Of course, a major drop in sales will be used as evidence that the pirates (Drink up, me harties, yo ho!) are the cause, thus providing the motivation for still more litigation, legislation, and copy protection measures that are most certainly not in the consumer's best interest.

That said, I agree with your post. This is not the beginning of a revolution, nor a "changing tide". This is one extremely small victory for an individual.

--

Re:Is the tide changing?"

[aborchers]

The only way for there to be a "changing tide" is if they are seriously affected monetarily, as in a major drop in sales, or if they are legally bound by a class action suite or something similar.

Given that it is not realistic that most people will go to the trouble (i.e. hundreds of $ worth of wasted time and/or cash) necessary to collect $10-$20 on a "defective" CD, I see a class action as the only viable legal option. IAAL's chime in: Is there any realistic hope of getting one started? I have been burned by at least one CD (Warning: Soviet Russia joke suppressed) that I couldn't play or return for a refund, so I would be happy to sign on...

Re:Is the tide changing?"

[3terrabyte]

Sorry, I disagree.

If, and I do mean if... we ever organize an actual boycott (beside a few percentage) then no amount of legislation would actually change the fact that a boycott is still going on.

One of my fears is that the small geek boycott we've got going on right now is really only possible because they're pirating the material to get their fix. What if P2P wasn't available? Would everyone still stick to the boycott? I would guess: no.

The only type of boycott that will work is when the mom's and dads and grandmas of the world boycott the RIAA. And those are people who are not using P2P, also. Thus, more legislation would NOT affect those boycotting! The boycott would still go on strong.

Re:Is the tide changing?"

[geekoid]

Here's a little clue train action for you.

Yes, it's only one person, but what happens when it becomes cost prohibitve to sell crippled cd's in france because everybody starts getting refunds? hell, someone could go to the store, take it home, copy it, and return it a defective. now that would be far more costly then if someone just downloaded the cd for free.
The company has to decide 'do we loose more money from the individual making mp3s', or 'do we loose more money from the refund process?',which cost them more then just the refund money.

They could try to sell CDs in france without copy protection, but then you would have a additional costs. Plus, everybodu would ge the CDs from amazon.fr

Copy protection = Defective

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect'

What beautiful wording. And absolutely true. If you purchase data, it should be that, data, plain and simple, with no extras or hitches.

Theory and Philsophy lesson 1 for Copy protection companies:
If you can read it, you can copy it.

I think they already know that deep down. So their idea is to make the data harder and harder to read... to the point where it becomes defective.

...morons

Re:Copy protection = Defective

[krymsin01]

You can't get around copy protection. Easiest way around copy protected cds? Hook up the audio out from a cd player that it plays on, record from computer. Get some software that interfaces with CDDB or something to get the track times, it can automaticly slice the recording into track length mp3s.

Re:Copy protection = Defective

[marktoml]

...once again (with feeling):

MOrons :)

Re:Copy protection = Defective

[krymsin01]

High end audio equipment has digital out, and you can get sound cards with digital end. *shrug*

Re:Copy protection = Defective

[xenobyte]

I recently bought two EMI releases, both labelled with "Copy Control" logos and disclaimers: Kraftwerk's "Tour De France Soundtracks 2003" and Delerium's "Chimera".

I have no idea whether these actually were protected but I was able to fire up my Exact Audio Copy, load the disks and make a flawless rip of everything without the slightest problem or need for tweaks.

Both disks held the data track at the end which seems to be omnipresent on these disks so I guess they were something besides a normal CD, but the copy protection was worthless to say the least - it didn't even slow me down.

The CD drive used was a regular A-Open CD-RW/DVD combo drive, about 3 months old.

The rips are to be used by myself at work (nobody wants to drag along thousands of CDs just to be able to have a decent selection of music to listen to), so they are perfectly legal under danish law, even with the stupid european DMCA in effect, according to CONSOLIDATED ACT ON COPYRIGHT 2003 (Consolidated Act No. 164 of March 12, 2003), paragraph 12, section 2, subsection (v):

"The provision of subsection (1) does not provide the right to ... make single copies in digital form of other works than computer programs and databases unless this is done exclusively for the personal use of the copying person himself or his household."

Source: http://www.kum.dk/sw4550.asp

Re:Copy protection = Defective

[ogre2112]

Well, if your going to take that digital copy and compress it to 1/10th it's original size with MP3 compression, you probably won't notice the fact it wasn't ripped digitally anyway, although I've never actually ripped this wanectnobonus_present=1

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[Pius II.]

"Achete par une consommatrice, Francoise Marc, dans un hypermarche Auchan, le CD d'Alain Souchon etait illisible sur l'autoradio de sa Clio."

A PC with an X through it doesn't really help to show that the CD doesn't play in your car. If that isn't enough, most DVD players don't play these, either. This policy is starting to really piss consumers off. As far as I know, most retailers around here (Germany, that is) just take all the CDs back, if you give them "it doesn't play on my DVD/car stereo/discman" as the reason.

Moot

[doctechniqal]

If you believe
the study referenced in this article, then the whole issue of copy protecting audio CDs is pretty much dead in the water anyway.

Re:Moot

[16K Ram Pack]

Funny how sales in the UK were UP last year, then.

Defective CDs

[Fareq]

This is very interesting, and was probably the right thing to do.

After all, when one sells a disc that looks like a standard CD in a store that sells standard CDs, especially on the same racks as standard CDs, it is a reasonable assumption for the consumer to believe that the product is a standard CD.

If there were significant visible markings on the disc that said something to the effect of "This disc does not meet the red-book standard for Compact Disc Digital Audio" then it would be reasonable to allow the sale of the crippled CD -- after all, the manufacturer has made it apparent that this disc is not a Compact Disc, but that it *might* support some of the same functionality. If you are concerned, don't buy, if you buy, well, you were warned.

This is how I feel the "broken CD game" should be played. I have no problem with companies trying to peddle "broken" CDs, just so long as every consumer knows that it is "broken"

As for the CDs/DVDs that become opaque after a certain time? I'm not sure what to do there. You see, the trouble stems from the fact that, until it becomes opaque, the disc conforms to the standard. Still, I am certain that an appropriate "warning label" can be determined.

In the end, it ought to be up to an informed market to decide whether "broken" or "sudden-death" media are acceptable -- not the government to mandate.

That said, I applaud the decision made, and will continue to support these kinds of decisions until it is made blindingly obvious which disks are crippled

Re:Defective CDs

[ruiner13]

"If there were significant visible markings on the disc that said something to the effect of "This disc does not meet the red-book standard for Compact Disc Digital Audio" then it would be reasonable to allow the sale of the crippled CD -- after all, the manufacturer has made it apparent that this disc is not a Compact Disc, but that it *might* support some of the same functionality."

Knowing the technical knowledge of most consumers, when you refer to "red book" they'll probably think the magazine and wonder what the hell that has to do with CDs and buy it anyway. I think the disclaimer needs to be... how should I say... dumbed down.

Re:Defective CDs

[geekoid]

the consumer does not now what 'red book' means.
they should have to put on the from cover, in at least 10pt font:
"This cd will not play in some home stereo equipment, most computers, and some cars."
Becasue thats the truth, and they no it.

for the other case, it should say "This cd will be unplayable X days after the package is opened."

the goverment should stepmin and force these kind of clear labels. If the market bears it, then fine.

Re:Defective CDs

[a1englishman]

Any record shop should accept the return of any recording that does not follow the industry standards. After all, if the manufacturer's copy protection is so bloody good, there is no need to fear anything illicit has occured.

Insensitive Headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Should read:

Differently-Abled CD Deemed Special In France

Tide changing my ass...

[Rinikusu]

I doubt that this means much. Just like the guy who was able to get $200 back from some major OEM for Windows XP by taking it to small claims, it's not going to change "business". It will take hundreds of those kind of lawsuits and the accompanying legal bills to make a difference. I mean, if you're spending $1 million in attorney's fees to represent a company for $100k in refunds, what do you think you're going to do? Look at how effective "our" /. boycott on the RIAA, Sony, Disney, et al is. A few loud mouth geeks don't mean anything in the real world. Remember high school? Remember how nobody listened to you because you were just a nerd and were "uncool"? What makes you think things have changed just because you're an adult? We can raise a stink, but no one cares. They're still writing the checks, consuming like mindless idiots, and the vocal minority still doesn't get what we want. You have to think to yourself that most of the Joe Consumer's out there will buy a defective product and if it doesn't work, are still too lazy to take it back (see Radar Jammers).

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[trompete]

That's where I saw the CDs in the first place: I was studying in Heidenheim, BW two summers ago. I can't read French, but I can read German :)

Do many consumers just not buy those CDs?

Is there a way for them to rip them and burn them to a safer disc format?

Re:Welcome !

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm liking the French more and more every day. Now, if they could only learn the wonders of air conditioning and bathing...

Good step...

[KinkyClown]

At my work we don't have a CD player and a audio set. We all have computers, CD-ROM players and a set of speakers. I can not listen at my work to some CD's I have bought. I am not doing anything illegal and I can not listen to my own bought CD's.
I hope that a similar case will hit the courts as well. I don't want to rip my CD's and make MP3's, I just want to listen to the music. Why do I have to be punished for something I did not do? Getting my money back is no option, I can play my CD's back home on my normal audio set, but I don't like it when I am programming that I can not listen to my good-mood-programming-music.

Re:Good step...

[16K Ram Pack]

This is what is stopping me putting my hand in my pocket and buying 3 CDs.

At work, I listen to music and would like the last two Spiritualized CDs and the one by the Kings of Leon. AFAIK, all are copy protected, so will not play except in low-grade format.

My time listening to music is about 20% at home, 30% in the car and 50% at the PC. It's just too important to me.

So, I'll spend my money on something else instead.

Despite all the France-bashing of late

[West Palm Beach]

I have to applaud their Court's decision on this matter.

If the CD doesn't play in certain devices, it's defective. Period.

When is the RIAA going to realize that they're eroding their own customer base with lawsuits, faulty products and such. Especially when the end product costs almost $20 a pop.

I've bought precious little music since the advent of copy-protection, though it doens't help that theoverall quality of music lately has declined. Until such defects are corrected, I'll simply continue my stance.

Think of the future

[OMG]

The copy protected CD you buy today may run on your current CD player. But what about your next CD player? How much percent of your CD collection will not run on the new player?

heise.de has setup a register for copy protected CDs and on which drives/players they are playable. The results so far show, that the copy protection is not PC drive specific. Some CD players do play some copy protected CDs, some players don't. The same goes for CD-ROM drives. Depends on the copy protection system also. Thus you can't tell which copy protection system will stop your next CD player from playing the CD.

Thus the record companies are FORCING music fans to make a digital copy (which is a crime in Germany now if you have to circumvent a copy protection mechansim).

Re:Think of the future

[OMG]

As I said: Some CD-ROM drives can read the copy protected CDs, some CD-ROM drives can't. Depends on the model and the protection system used.

The music industry says copy protected CDs are playable in all CD players and are not playable in CD-ROM drives. The resulst of the register show that this is simply not true. It's like gambling.

CD Spec?

[Cynicx]

Possibly a stupid question: Does a copy-protected CD actually follow the CD specification from Philips et al.?

Re:CD Spec?

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

Possibly a stupid question: Does a copy-protected CD actually follow the CD specification from Philips et al.?

No, it doesn't. And that's what has caused all the headache and 'broken' computers. Copy protected 'CDs' aren't REALLY CDs at all.

Re:CD Spec?

[spaceyhackerlady]

Possibly a stupid question: Does a copy-protected CD actually follow the CD specification from Philips et al.?

Depends on the copy protection the record company used. Some copy protection schemes do in fact mess up the CD data in a way that computer CD drives can't read, and such CDs typically don't have the official CD logo on them. They did at one time, but Philips got upset about it and now they don't.

One recent purchase of mine (Doll Revolution by The Bangles) says it's copy protected, and doesn't have the CD logo on it. As nearly as I can tell, they make it all but impossible to play it on a Windoze box unless you use their (brain-damaged) CD player application. My Linux box played it without comment, and cdda2wav ripped tracks without comment.

Another recent purchase (Unicas by Azucar Moreno) also says it cannot be played on a PC or Mac, but doesn't seem to incorporate any copy protection of any kind. Go figure.

...laura

How about a copy-protection standard?

[alexre1]

It is understandable that the music industry would want to have copy-protection on the CDs they distribute to curb piracy. However, their current piecemeal approach leads to situations such as these - where some CDs can be read only in some readers.

Secondly, this type of copy-protection is a clear violation of the rights of any person who buys such a CD. Under U.S. and Canadian copyright laws (I don't know the European equivalents), a person has the right to make one copy of a legally purchased CD for backup/archival purposes.

I suggest that the Music Industry come together and create a new standard for copyright protection that

Re:How about a copy-protection standard?

[alexre1]

(whoops pressed enter by mistake)
1. Prevents users from digitally extracting Music from CDs in 'listenable' format
2. Allows users to a backup of the CD in a way that is secure and personally identifiable - IE each backup can be traced directly back to the person who created it.

This type of standard can then be adopted into future CD players. Every CD made under this standard should also be CLEARLY labeled so that prospective purchasers will not make an incorrect purchase.

Re:How about a copy-protection standard?

[swordgeek]

Hmm. And then what do I do with my $12,000 CD player? Oh, I guess I quit listening to new music.

All right, I don't personally have a CD player that expensive (although my turntable is worth about $1500). It's irrelevant--if they're going to force me to upgrade my stereo, then they'd better be offering me something POSITIVE, not just more restrictions!

Re:How about a copy-protection standard?

[Alien Being]

"Secondly, this type of copy-protection is a clear violation of the rights of any person who buys such a CD."

Here's where that argument breaks down. You have no rights. Rights in this country are granted by congress. You can't afford to outbribe industry lobbyists, so the laws are being made in their favor.

Many of the new laws go against the fundamental concepts of American freedom that we had drilled into our heads in public school. We want to believe that the government is "for the people", but what we see is a bunch of fatcats who don't give a damn about the Constitution and who cannot relate to the other 90% of the population.

One psychobabble term for the way all of this makes us feel is 'cognitive dissonance'. The choices for coping with it are

a) fix the problem.
b) give up your old beliefs.
c) find some new beliefs that are more important than the old ones.

Our feckless fuckwads in the whorehouse and the war department know they can't convince people to give up the beliefs that we should live free, that we're innocent until proven guilty, etc. They sure as hell don't want us to fix the problem, because that would mean putting Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Wolfowitz, Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe in front of a firing squad. Their method is to give us some new things to believe in.

In other words, due to 9/11 our rights are not important. Due to 9/11 we must go occupy Iraq. To protect the economy (what economy?) we must allow big business to run roughshod over American citizens.

Damn, i need a drink. I guess that's option d).

Re:How about a copy-protection standard?

[ajs318]

{ADVANCE WARNING: You'll have to excuse the French} Because, dickhead, such a copy protection system is fucking impossible. At some point in the process, there sill be some form of identifiable music signal. Even if you have to do it by pointing a fucking mic at the speaker, you can copy anything you can hear. It's that simple. Now, you certainly get some imperfections, but these can be minimised. After all, those audio signals were recorded in the studio in the first place using microphones. So you point a studio grade mic at the crippled, monolithic audio player, whose only output is acoustic, and the sounds it is recording are already at the maximum quality anyone is ever going to hear them. The analogue bit only happens once. Well, maybe more than once, if you could do some fancy filtering over as many successive recordings as possible ..... The first person to catch that signal via an A-to-D converter has already won. From then on, every copy ever made will be digital-perfect compared to that first analogue copy; and, assuming you have acccess to good enough equipent, indistinguishable from the original.

Re:How about a copy-protection standard?

[alexre1]

>> 1. Prevents users from digitally extracting Music from CDs in 'listenable' format
I was referring to digital audio extraction. I must remind you that every type of audio media is susceptible to the kind of copying you refer to.

Re:How about a copy-protection standard?

[ajs318]

I must remind you that every type of audio media is susceptible to the kind of copying you refer to.

I know; which is why it would be utterly without merit even to bother with any sort of digital protection. Copy protection is like a perpetual motion machine - the laws of physics clearly say why it will not work. Therefore, there is no point trying. In the best case, all the time, money {which, lest you forget, came in the first place from customers} and effort you put into it are wasted. In the worst case, some of the time, money and effort you put into it actually annoyed those customers, who are the source of that money. Or used to have been, till you pissed them off.

Face facts. The record industry is like someone who won the lottery the day they were supposed to get a real job, has been living off their winnings ever since, and now the money is beginning to run out. Record companies only ever existed at all because recording equipment was not available to everyone at the time. If every phonograph ever made had been a recording model, things might well have been quite different. Technology has since arrived that alters the balance -- nowadays, almost every "phonograph" can be a recording model. The record companies are no longer the only kids in the neighbourhood with pools, and they are upset.

Whilst I accept that artists deserve to get paid something for what they were, after all, originally doing for the money, I cannot accept the ridiculously over-inflated price of CDs. Especially not in the light that CDs cost less to manufacture than walkman cassettes, yet are sold at higher prices. If the companies did not manufacture cassettes at all, CDs would be cheaper. If CDs were cheaper, copying would be less worthwhile. {A blank CD is not significantly cheaper to produce than a pre-recorded one. The stampers still have a finite lifetime and the materials used in CD-Rs are more expensive. In a pre-recorded CD, there is an additional cost for the source material, but it's a one-off.} And copying a CD is a hassle. Well ..... I have to open an xterm and type two commands, and can't do any heavy-duty disk accessing activity for about five minutes. I'd gladly pay a few pounds to avoid that, but not what the record companies are asking - it's just silly money.

What next? If the record industry get their way, maybe the Guild of Master Bakers will go after users of electric bread machines, and there will be calls for a special tax on flour.

Or, we can put an end to the nonsense. You want to buy an album? Stop. Find out how much the band would get from the sale of each album. Double it if you want to be generous. Copy that album by fair means or foul, and send the lead singer a postal order for what you owe them with a nice letter explaining how you are simply missing out the middleman. You get your album, the artist gets paid. And hey, the record racketeers are always going on about how it's the poor musicians that get hurt, so you'd think they'd be happy about it.

What's the "offensive" part?

[RobertB-DC]

Je parle francais, but I wasn't able (ok, I wasn't willing) to get past the Flash opening at the link listed in the Register article:

Also in the Nanterre dock was Auchon, the giant department store chain, which sold the offending (and to non-French ears, offensive) CD. It escaped punishment for its offence of failing to inform the Alain Souchon fan that the CD was copy protected.

What's the part that's "offending to non-French ears"? Since the Register is a .UK outfit, it can't be simple Bush-bashing. Or is it the annoying Flash itself that's offensive?

Re:What's the "offensive" part?

[stratjakt]

Whats offensive?

Have you ever heard any french pop music?

It'll make you run screaming to the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears.

Re:What's the "offensive" part?

[PhB95]

I think it refers to the fact that Alain Souchon's music is not really everybody's taste. And for people not natively french speaking, the texts may sometimes prove difficult to understand: He does not really use what we could call "basic french".

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[Anonymous Coward]

In the worst case copy-protection scenario, I would just take the audio out cable and feed it into the audio in feed on my soundcard, and record it then. Yes, the Digital->Analog->Digital conversion would degrade the sound quality, but not so much that I'd mind. Then I can play my CD in my car and everyone's rights are respected (the IP rights of the music corp, and my rights as a consumer). Somehow, though, I imagine I'd be seen as a pirate by the music execs anyway.

Don't help them test

[gokubi]

When you tell them your CD didn't play, don't tell them what device it didn't play in. Let them figure it out for themselves.

Telling them makes you an unpaid beta tester!

Re:Don't help them test

[Eivind]

Not really, they know it doesn't work in many devices (because it's freaking DESIGNED not to work there.

This crap that they're "working on" improving compatibility is a lie. From their perspective it's not a "bug" that the disc doesn't play in my PS2. It's not a "bug" that it doesn't play in my CD-rom drive at work. It's not a "bug" that it doesn't play in my EXCELLENT DVD-player, the Kiss DP-500 (as an aside, check it out, it supports Ogg, Divx, mp3, all the usual works, it's got a ethernet-port and can stream all media from your computer, and best of all, it's really a StrongARM-computer running Linux, though you'd never guess just from using it.)

These are FEATURES from their perspective, they spent a lot of money to make sure the disc doesn't work in these situations. (and many more) They have no intentions whatsoever of "fixing" any of this.

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[phelddagrif]

And if you were living in the states, you'd have committed a federal crime, by violating the DMCA. As you circumvented a copy protection system.

If they were really overlords...

[corebreech]

...then they'd rule Windows defective as well.

It's crippled too.

Latest outrage: I can't format drives as FAT32 under XP. Just found this out yesterday.

The reason why:

• a) The retards who call themselves engineers at Microsoft forgot how.
  
• b) Windows XP has been deliberately crippled.
  
• c) All of the above.
  

Re:If they were really overlords...

[revmoo]

Yes, you can.

However, FAT32 is limited to something like 20gigs, so you cannot format a partition larger than that as FAT, you must use NTFS.

A limitation of the filesystem, rather than of windows.

this isn't the first time

[bodrell]

I knew this article seemed familiar . . . At the end of June, there was another article about a consumer in Brazil who sued for the same reason. And won. In contrast to this French case, the guy won about $340. Whether that is in addition to legal fees, I don't know. The original Brazilian article referenced is here.

Interestingly, the Brazilian CD which was defective (Tribalistas, featuring Marisa Monte, Arnaldo Antunes, and Carlinhos Brown) was not copy-protected in the US (I was worried after reading this article, but I bought a copy and had no problems reading it on my Mac).

Way to go Europe

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

I normally consider myself a die-hard american. I tend to support our government through thick and thin. But as of late, it seems like European government (courts especially) are the only ones that care to protect their citizens. Look back through Slashdot articles for the past week or two. You'll see what I mean.

I had never considered moving to another country. But the more European governments step up to this crap while our own government takes the DMCA attitude, the better my chances of visiting the EU for an extended stay.

Re:Way to go Europe

[PhB95]

I'm somewhat symetric to you: For years, I always thought the US were THE country of freedom. Years ago, I had the dream to settle there later 'cause I felt excessive state control in old Europe and specially in France. But in the last few years I became more and more disappointed about all kinds of new US laws and regulations. Beside this, the EU construction is way too slow, but still a very interesting process to follow from the inside. So if I finally go to the states, which I still hope to visit, it will only be for a short holiday...

Re:Way to go Europe

[UnuMondo]

While in the Den Haag central station a few days ago, some fool lit up a spliff next to three cops. They promptly asked him to put it out, cited the law against possession when he didn't, and then handcuffed him and led him away. While Holland's tendency to prosecute is much less than in other countries, smoking a joint in front of a police officer is bad idea. UnuMondo, who has lived in Holland for a while

Re:Way to go Europe

[ElGanzoLoco]

I had never considered moving to another country. But the more European governments step up to this crap while our own government takes the DMCA attitude, the better my chances of visiting the EU for an extended stay

Yup... come over some time, it's a nice place here :)

El Ganzo Loco,
(european)

Re:Way to go Europe

[metalligoth]

I totally agree with you, and that's all I have to say on the subject. I really don't feel like being flamed today.

Thomas Jefferson would, had he been alive today, agree with both of us. Patriots do not watch as their freedoms wither away.

Broken toy puppy, Broken CD...

[blcamp]

There's a Johnny Depp joke in here somewhere, but I can't quite put it together...

Re:Broken toy puppy, Broken CD...

[BigBadBri]

Could be worse - could be a Johnny Halliday joke.

Now that really would be earplugs time.

Good work France!

[EvilTwinSkippy]

I for one am sick of non-standard standards. Can you picture how backwards civilization would be if every book every published required a secret-decoder ring to read?

What if you needed special glasses to see the great works of art from the Renasance?

Copyright law is about giving companies a way to profit from selling their works for a limited time before said works become part of our collective culture. Just because computers enter into the picture does not make it okay to take a jackhammer to tradition.

Re:Good work France!

[FireBreathingDog]

Can you picture how backwards civilization would be if every book every published required a secret-decoder ring to read?

You mean like your sig?

Who is Alain Souchon anyway ?

[polyp2000]

Woo Hoo,

I just wondered who this Alain Souchon is, Im always
on the look out for interesting new artists. To download
on my favorite p2p program.

Quick google reveals ...
http://souchon.old.voila.fr/

OMG he looks like a bizarre combination of Barry Manilow and David Hasselhoff ... What a guy , just look at his sexy pose.

Ill bet he's so popular that all his CD's need copy protection :)

Re:Who is Alain Souchon anyway ?

[polyp2000]

LOL, okay then dude, Ill see if i can find a copy to see what its like, knocking around somewhere.

FYI: Im from the UK and know nothing about the American Top 40 , but I doubt its any better than our Top40 , I rarely listen to the radio because there is so much crap on it !

But is it a Compact Disc?

[Brahmastra]

A while ago, I heard that philips wasn't going to allow the crippled CDs to be called Compact Discs because it doesn't follow the Compact Disc Spec. Is that true or does anymore have more information about that?

Re:But is it a Compact Disc?

[swordgeek]

It's not a compact disc. Phillips did, in fact, vigorously defend their legal rights to the name, won a small court victory, and convinced the manufacturers of these things to comply. If you look at any of these copy-protected things, you'll notice that they don't say "Compact Disc," "Compact Disc digital audio," "CDDA," or have the CD logo anywhere on them.

However, who knows how valid that is in France? It looks like the courts considered a copy protected thingy to be a broken CD, so maybe the above doesn't hold up over there. (or alternatively, they might not be complying with the US ruling over there)

Re:But is it a Compact Disc?

[phlyingpenguin]

I find that interesting. Phillips obviously can't change what EMI calls their media, but it would be interesting to read more about these specs and why they're different. Don't these CDs all work fine when you make a magic marker ring around the edge? Therefore I wonder how different the spec might be for a copy protected CD. I doubt that the copy protection is still the same as when it first came out, therefore I wouldn't be surprised if the spec actually does differ from the original CD design.

Re:But is it a Compact Disc?

[jonbryce]

Yes they can. They own the trademark to "Compact Disk" and "CD", and they only license it to people who comply with the red book standard.

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[Pius II.]

> Do many consumers just not buy those CDs? Well, the typical scenario is that they buy the CD, then find it doesn't play in their living room stereo (CD player replaced by DVD player), and then either ask me to make a copy that works, or they just take it back.
Personally, I almost always buy at cheap CD stores (2001 comes to mind), where they have CDs so cheap that the costs for copy protection would cut the publishers profits too much. Noone protects CDs for less than 10 Euros.
I wouldn't guess that most people can find a way around the copy protection, although several of those "protections" simply don't work. According to European law, it is legal to rip your protected CD if the protection is not functional. So you just try your neighbours burner :-)

CD Format Is The Problem

[Goo.cc]

I think that the main problem for the RIAA is that they are shipping music on a medium easily readable by every computer in the world. If they are serious about preventing copying, they ought to create and move to a media that they have total control of and make it unavailable for PC use.

Re:CD Format Is The Problem

[Petronius]

if the new media can be plugged into anything that can be programmed, the game is over. Even if it's not, you can still re-capture the (analog) audio with a sound card and make a pretty good copy. it's not perfect but but people will still do it. I don't think there's anything the RIAA can do at this point. And this is the tale of what's to come for the movie industry with DVD ripping/burning.

Re:CD Format Is The Problem

[Angostura]

Analog vinyl, perhaps?

The problem that the RIAA has is that the very flexibility of the medium (it plays in cars, on PCs, portables, is ripplable to MP3 etc) is one of the things that makes it popular in today's market.

They face a dilemma

Re:CD Format Is The Problem

[karnal]

I would even think, at this point, that you'd be able to do a bit-for-bit copy as well.

For instance, many people have DVD players. Well, on the digital outs on these DVD players, I've noticed that you get a 44.1k stream (well, 88.2 to be more correct) of audio directly to the receiver.

*voila* plugs into digital input on sound card. A little more time consuming than most, but you are correct -- if you want it and you can enjoy it even crippled, there will be a way to uncripple it...

Re:CD Format Is The Problem

[t_allardyce]

That works quite well for somethings, games consoles with proprietory storage devices like cartridges, but it becomes expensive. PS2's have DVD drives and that works pretty well because a) not as many people have DVD writers and b) it requires modding the hardware. The only reason i have ever bought PS2 games is because its too hard for me to copy or download them but thats only temporary - if i ever got a dvd burner and could easily download full iso's or swap with friends then that would be it for paying. With music its very different. Music is just sound in the end and whatever lock-in hardware system you design, as long as it has an output someone will have an input ;) Although they are trying this anyway with their stupid new system i cant remember what the piece of shit is called..

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[IM6100]

Since the CD doesn't play in her car, but does play in most consumer-grade CD players, perhaps she should be suing the Auto manufacturer, or the OEM who produced the player in her car. It clearly is not conformant with the media that major music publishers are producing.

Actually...

[Electrode]

According to this article, FAT32 can be up to 8 TB. However, due to limitations in Windows 2000 and XP's FAT driver, it can only create a FAT32 filesystem as large as 32 GB.

Re:Actually...

[joe_bruin]

nope. windows xp can only format filesystems as fat32 up to 32gb. however, windows 2000 can format fat32 disks much larger than that (i've never hit the limit). the reason this is intentionally disabled in xp is to discourage the use of fat32 in favor of ntfs on new drives. whether this is due to purposeful compatibility breaking (yes, everything reads fat), or simply a well-intentioned plan to get rid of the ancient fat file system is only known to microsoft.

Re:Actually...

[sglider]

That isn't true at all. My PC runs a 60 Gigabyte Hard Drive that was formatted as such as FAT32 (a 20 gig partition, and a 40 gig partition.)

Re:Actually...

[mst76]

nope. windows xp can only format filesystems as fat32 up to 32gb. however, windows 2000 can format fat32 disks much larger than that (i've never hit the limit). the reason this is intentionally disabled in xp is to discourage the use of fat32 in favor of ntfs on new drives. whether this is due to purposeful compatibility breaking (yes, everything reads fat), or simply a well-intentioned plan to get rid of the ancient fat file system is only known to microsoft.

Although fat32 supports filesystems up to 2TB in theory, there are sound reasons to get rid of it soon. Summary: for large filesystems, you end up with either large cluster sizes (leaving you with a lot of wasted space like on fat16), or large file allocation tables (FATs).

Re:Actually...

[toddestan]

That's not true. You can only go up to 32GB in Windows 2000 with FAT32. I had an old 40GB drive (actual size=38GB) that I tried to format and it wouldn't let me use FAT32. I ended up making a Windows 95b boot disk and formatting it that way. I think you can go up to about 60GB that way, any more and you'll need a tool like Partition Magic.

Re:Actually...

[Gheesh]

I think you can go up to about 60GB that way, any more and you'll need a tool like Partition Magic.

... or mkdosfs -F 32, which is what I had to use to format my new 60GB drive when Windows 2000 refused to do so with a "Could not finish format" message.

End this madness!

[jared_hanson]

Posts like these need to stop. They are incredibly annoying. See my journal entry on the subject.

Re:End this madness!

[indianajones428]

One of the least effective ways of getting something to stop is telling people to stop doing it (especially on /.)

DORKA

[tds67]

Senator Ron Wyden recently introduced the Digital Consumer Right-to-Know Act (DCRKA), a bill that would require entertainment companies to label products with copy-protections that limit consumer use.

Contrast this with the Digital Online Right-to-Know Act (DORKA), which would let us geeks know when the RIAA is spying on our P2P activity in an attempt to limit consumer use.

New copy-protection technology

[JamesP]

I've just pattented my new Copy protection technology it's number 666-666 just after patente 666-665 which is mine: "a method for air circulation in socks using localized fabric deterioration"

Here's the deal. You go to a store and buy a CD. Yuo open the box and there's nothing inside.

It's simple and effective. Of course you dont get to listen to the music. If you could, you would post it in Kazaa and we would have to sue you for that.

Re:New copy-protection technology

[glitch!]

Here's the deal. You go to a store and buy a CD. Yuo open the box and there's nothing inside. It's simple and effective. Of course you dont get to listen to the music.

Well, does it have nice cover art?

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[Rude Turnip]

That's not how it works. The standard that is to be adhered to is the Redbook CD Audio Standard. Hardware manufacturers are living up to their end of the deal; it is the music publishers who are in violation.

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[Mr.Sharpy]

Since the CD doesn't play in her car, but does play in most consumer-grade CD players, perhaps she should be suing the Auto manufacturer, or the OEM who produced the player in her car. It clearly is not conformant with the media that major music publishers are producing.

Well, see, unlike the music companies, the auto manufacturers and oems are crazy and like to enhance their products by using new technology to improve sound quality and ease of use and to lower consumer costs. Music companies, on the other hand, like to stagnate on quality, ignore consumer desires, and use technology to make their products more difficult to use...ON PURPOSE.

But I know you were just kidding, right?

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[pyros]

wrong. That is the analog hole method that content companies are trying to make illegal. They want TVs, DVD players, CD players, general computers, pretty much anything that displays copyrighted digital content to not have any analog output, only digital with DRM controls. That's part of the CDBTPA, and one of the things that has been causing problems with HDTV. The content companies say they won't release content without controls. The stations don't have any content to advertise to entice consumers to sign up. And the manufacturers are screwed because there's no demand, and adding crippling features would reduce what demand there is. But to get back on track, what he's talking about isn't affected by the DMCA. He's using an approved device (his CD player) to access the content, the copying is taking place after the mechanism has granted access.

Who knew Mulholland Drive was protected?

[Anonymous Coward]

UFC is also sueing Warner for selling a copy protected Phil Collins CD in Macintosh and a Universal executive for the protection on the DVD of Mulholland Drive.

I think the workaround for copy protection on a Mulholland Drive DVD is to watch a better movie.

You make me sad

[Daniel Dvorkin]

On the one hand, you link to a (very accurate) anti-Bush site in your sig. On the other, you've bought into the anti-French propaganda pushed by the same right-wing idiots that site criticizes. The fact is that the French military record overall is no better or worse than the record of most of the other great powers. Win a few, lose a few; that's the way it goes.

Re:You make me sad

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Um ... they've got nukes, actually.

Re:You make me sad

[canajin56]

Actually, the worst they can do is a nuclear missile to the face.

On the note of France and nuclear weapons...anybody notice how France resumes nuclear testing, and everybody makes a big stink. The US announces it is pulling out of nuclear treaties, and resuming testing, and nobody cares.

Re:You make me sad

[Spad]

People care, they just know the US won't listen to them.

Re:You make me sad

[pyrrhonist]

The US announces it is pulling out of nuclear treaties, and resuming testing, and nobody cares.

Maybe because the US simulates detonations in software instead of doing it for real?

Re:You make me sad

[xski]

The US announces it is pulling out of nuclear treaties, and resuming testing, and nobody cares


Pardon?? You live under a rock? Or is slashdot the entirety of your news consumption?

Check the intl affairs press and non-US news if you want to see continued fuming and flaming about the US pulling out of the ABM treaty. For starters, its become one more item in the litany of Bad Things done by that Bad Bush Administration. they did this and that and the other thing and pulled out of the ABM thereby destabilising the entire planet! I read it all the time.

-xski

Re:You make me sad

[Guppy06]

"On the note of France and nuclear weapons...anybody notice how France resumes nuclear testing, and everybody makes a big stink"

I can remember the stink made when France conducted the first underwater test in the South Pacific since... well, since the US and USSR signed the Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty. I can also remember what French special forces tried to do to Greenpeace who were trying to protest the tests. Say what you will about Ashcroft, but even he hasn't done something like that (yet).

Sure, France wasn't a signatory, but even the Indians and Pakistanis are focusing on underground testing.

"The US announces it is pulling out of nuclear treaties, and resuming testing, and nobody cares."

One, and only one: The Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. And we did so according to the terms of said treaty (giving advance notice, etc.). And the only testing being done is with kinetic-kill weapons against dummy ballistic targets. Unless somebody can pull up some information that says otherwise, the last US nuclear test was more than a decade ago. All US nuclear tests since the signing of the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (c. 1960s) have been conducted underground according to the terms of said treaty. The US has also held up its end of the bargain spelled out in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty ("We'll help you build nuclear power plants if you don't try to build bombs"). The US has not violated the terms of any nuclear treaty signed by it (cough Pyongyang cough) and it does maintain public disclosure of its nuclear arsenal and capabilities (cough Tehran cough).

Re:You make me sad

[HuguesT]

French nuclear tests occured in the southern Pacific, about as far off the French mainland as possible, however uncomfortably close to such nations as New Zealand. NZ is the home of Greenpeace. Whether you like that latter group or not, they know how to make a big stink when necessary, and they have some unpleasant memories associated with the French secret services on the matter of the Rainbow Warrior.

Re:You make me sad

[frodmann]

At least if US do nuclear testing they will do it in their own backyard. When the French did their testing they did it as far away from themselves as possible and damn what the neighbours.

Re:You make me sad

[guile*fr]

can you spell Christmas Island? Bikini Atoll? Enewetak Atoll? Johnston Island? US had its fair share of Pacific nuclear testing....

Re:You make me sad

[Zarquon]

Generally speaking, I think Greenpeace deserves whatever they got. A pirate's den (in the literal sense).

Re:You make me sad

[Urkki]

And they think the French will listen?

Re:You make me sad

[Guppy06]

I'm not all that fond of them myself, but I don't see what laws (either French or New Zealand) they were breaking at the time. If they were, I'm sure New Zealand would have cooperated. But France couldn't even bother to ask permission to operate in New Zealand.

Re:You make me sad

[frodmann]

The difference is that the US actually borders the Pacific Ocean.

I, for one,

[snooo53]

am getting sick of these stupid jokes in every story today.

Class Action Lawsuit?

[scovetta]

Why don't some people get together and help settle this now with a class-action lawsuit against one of these companies? Does anyone know of any reason why (in the USA) this would be stopped dead in its tracks?

I feel like we need a win against these idio-- I mean, corporations.

Re:She's still stupid

[Rude Turnip]

After reading the link, it is very evident that McDonalds knew they were selling a dangerously hot product. By their own admission, the coffee was "unsuitable for consumption" after being served due to its temperature.

The website cited a number of previous cases where individuals received third degree burns from the coffee by no fault of their own, such as: employees spilling it on customers and people having it spilled on them by others by accident, etc. In other words, there was a history of people being burned by the coffee under many differing circumstances.

In the case of the 79 year old woman who brought this whole issue into the spotlight, her reward was reduced *because of her own carelessness* in handling the cup while driving.

While customers may obviously demand hot coffee, no reasonable person should expect to receive third degree burns (skin being burned down to the muscle/fat layer!) from that coffee.

Re:Testing CDs

[wirelessbuzzers]

Is there any program, or could anyone devise a program that could check if a CD is "copy protected" (defective)?

Yeah. Pop it into your computer. If your computer proceeds to crash or bitch about errors in the media, then it's copy-protected.

Or just look at the CD label. If it says "CD" on it, it's not copy protected. Copy protected "CDs" do not conform to the Red Book Standard, and so cannot legally be labeled as CDs.

if at first you dont succeed...

[Darth]

until the get all the kinks worked out of their copy protection schemes, they are just going to have to stick to their backup plan (only releasing music nobody wants a copy of).

except if you're going to

[Baki]

Copy it anyway; there are enough tools to copy these so called protected disks.

Afterwards you can burn a real CD and play it.
or make some more copies.

In other words: only those who would not even have the intention to make "illegal" copies should not buy such disks.

(and to non-French ears, offensive)

[p.rican]

I believe the "offensive CD" was a reference to the music on the website. I consider myself pretty open-minded when it comes to music but that was just painful to listen to. I think I'll go and cleanse my palatte(sp?) now by listening to the soundtrack of Glitter.

They're not Crippled CDs

[serutan]

They're "Freedom Disks".

Obligatory emusic recommendation.

[Hatta]

If you want to support a new way of doing things check out emusic. At $15 a month for (nearly) unlimited downloads it's a great deal. For me it's a great way to get my hands on a lot of great jazz recordings I can't justify spending $12 a piece on. They have classics from Miles Davis and Charlie Parker among others. It's also a great way to check out new music at no costs. Modern jazz fusion like Garaj Mahal, or psychedelic pop like Stereolab. While they don't have many of the most popular artists they do have a lot of great but not as widely appreciated bands, like Pigface, Sonic Youth, or The Future Sound of London. It's an awesome service, all I could ask for is a linux client that doesn't suck.

Offtopic but interesting

[p.rican]

It seems that the record companies may already be addressing the "compact Disc Logo" issue on some CD's. I just looked at the inside tray of my Police CD (The Very Best of....Sting & The Police 2002 A&M Records) and noticed that no where on the case do I see the CD Logo authorized by Phillips red book standard. If you look at the tray that the disc sits on, you see the rectangle shapes on the upper right and lower left corners but no Compact Disc Logo. This is probably old news for many of you, but I've been trying to pick out the copy protected CD's in my own collection but have found nothing conspicuous until now. BTW it still plays in all my stereos and two PCs.....

Re:Offtopic but interesting

[toddestan]

From what I have seen, if it has the CD logo it is always a standard CD without copy protection on it. If it does not, it may have copy protection (most often it doesn't, it seems that it gets omitted quite a bit).

Also, the case may be a replacement case if you bought the CD used. Best place to check is the CD itself followed by the back cover then the liner notes.

CD Verity: open source compliance testing software

[Anonymous Coward]

There is actually a group of standards that apply to CDs. The trick is figuring out what exactly is happening on any particular disc. For example, in the official Compact Disc Logo Guide published by Philips, there are different logos to show discs compliant to the following standards:

• CD-DA for Compact Disc Digital Audio
• CD-G for Compact Disc Graphics
• CD-EG for Compact Disc Extended Graphics
• CD-MIDI for Compact Disc MIDI
• CD TEXT for Compact Disc TEXT
• CD EXTRA for Enhanced Music Compact Disc
• CD-ROM for Compact Disc Read Only Memory
• CD-i for Compact Disc Interactive
• CD-V for Compact Disc Video
• Video CD or VCD for Video Compact Disc
• Photo CD or PCD for Photo Compact Disc
• CD-R for Compact Disc Recordable
• CD-RW for Compact Disc ReWritable
• SVCD, Super VCD or Super Video CD for Super Video Compact Disc
• High Speed CD-RW for HIgh Speed Compact Disc ReWritable
• DD-ROM for Double Density Compact Disc Read-Only Memory
• DD-R for Double Density Compact Disc Recordable
• DD-RW for Double Density Compact Disc ReWritable

There is actually a specification for each one of these logos. Also, there is no guarantee that a CD-ROM drive will be able to play a CD-DA disc (per the spec, though the spec says that it would be easy, and it is).

There is an effort underway to understand all of this stuff and to figure out how these things work together, and with various types of hardware. The project has an Open Source (BSD-style license) package called CD Verity that performs some testing of discs. The software is part of Interhack's Digital Media Project and might be of interest.

CDDA Vs CCCD

[Anonymous Coward]

My CD-players say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" and not "Copy-Controlled CD", therefore, my CD-players are not compatible with these CDs and must be returned. Period.

BTW: Have any of you seen the Copy-Controlled labels on these CDs? It's always on a TRANSPARENT sticker, making it as hard as possible to spot, but just enough to hold in court. Slick! I sure as hell didn't know until I put it in my CD-player on the computer at home, finding it wouldn't play. The CD (Radiohead) was returned. :( The store didn't even make me aware of this, naturally, they just want to sell whatever they have blindly.

As for these Midbar/Macrovision guys (the guys who made these "protections" (*cough* programmers with screw-drivers *cough*)), they must be wizards in the field of business. I mean, managing to fool the music industry giving them false hopes like this.

Midbar/Macrovision

Why the protection is completely useless: if you can play it, you can copy it. I don't see how it matters with copy-controlled CDs in that respect. Especially in the Internet world, where it's enough with one person sharing it, and given the fact that audio compressions are lossy means that it doesn't matter much what the heck your source was when recording it quality-wise.

Geez. Wake up!

Yeah, whatever. But this article really made my day. At least someone pays attention to this open injustice.

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[16K Ram Pack]

There's a shop near me that sells both DVD players and CDs with copy protection. On the side of the DVD player box it lists all the things that it will play - DVDs/CDs etc.

I'm really tempted to buy a player from them and then a few copy protected CDs and then take them all back when they don't play (including the player). Even if they have warning labels, the DVD player that They sold me said it would play it.

Re:Just stop buy it.

[Hatta]

It's a nice sentiment, but if the RIAA can fool people into listening(let alone paying for!) to an NSYNC album I doubt a few geeks buoycotting the RIAA is going to do anything. BTW, I already boycott the RIAA, not out of spite, but just because I already get enough great music from furthurnet and emusic. If I buy a CD it's at a show.

I'm seeing more of these from outside the US...

[djaj]

I buy a lot of CDs (yeah, I'm a sucker, what can I say?), and I still haven't seen a US-based copy-protected CD, but I've recently purchased three imports (one each from Australia, Germany and France) which were very clearly labelled as such. (I didn't know they would be copy-protected when I plunked down money for them, and I've been able to make perfectly good MP3s of the contents from the analog source.)

Neither disc has the CD logo on it, and both had very large stickers on the shrink-wrap with this logo on it and descriptions of what it meant, and what systems you should be able to play it on. (Since I refused to install the software necessary to actually play these on a computer, I have no idea how well they work in that respect.) I'm certainly going to avoid these from here on out if I can. I've noticed that amazon.co.uk, amazon.fr and amazon.de will occasionally note that a disc is copy-protected, so I'm going to check there first before buying from here on out.

My conversation with EMI:

[LadyLucky]

Dear [name removed]

Thanks for your e-mail and we are sorry you have experienced playability issues with the new [CD removed] and your PC.

It would help us a lot if we could get the model details of your PC so that we can make sure that the compatibility issue will be resolved as we continue to evolve this technology.

If you could attempt the following and send the resulting file to us, it would help a lot. Go to START -->Programs-->Accessories-->System Tools-->System Information. Please save this information as a text or nfo file and send that back to us.

Please note that you will require at least "Power Users" access or higher to install the application on Microsoft Windows NT operating systems and above.

With these details we can forward your query onto our European technology partner.

Please be aware that, if you prefer, you can return the copy controlled CD to the place of purchase to obtain a refund. (my emphasis)

sincerely
[name removed]
IT & New Media Director

> Hi

> I recently bought [CD removed], with your copy control stuff on it. When I try and play it on my computer, it uses 100% CPU, and also sounds terrible. There is a lot of high pitched screeching, and it cracks and sounds scratchy. All normal CDs sound fine. >

> What should I do? I play most music on my computer, and your label says it works fine, but it doesn't at all.

> Regards, [name removed]

Re:She's still stupid

[squarooticus]

After reading the link, it is very evident that McDonalds knew they were selling a dangerously hot product. By their own admission, the coffee was "unsuitable for consumption" after being served due to its temperature.

Irrelevant. Some people happen to like their Thai food with a level of spiciness that I would consider "unsuitable for consumption." Why should I be able to impose my opinion of the edibility of a food on other people? Perhaps some people like near-boiling water, or perhaps they want it really hot when they get it, so it's still hot when they get wherever they're going (e.g., commuter rail, the office, whatever).

[Aside: You goddamn leftists always try to impose your views on others because you believe that everyone in their right mind has to agree with you. Bullshit. Not everyone agrees with you all the time, and you should deal with that.]

OT

[cybercuzco]

For the French-impaired, an anonymous reader adds ..."

That should read "For the Freedom-impaired"

The only solution would be...

[syncrus]

I am an amateur musician, and I have a huge CD collection. Said that, I have stopped buying certain bands because their CDs are coming out with copy-control, or even worse formats.

Months ago I returned Martin Gore's new CD, which I had previously downloaded 3 months before it got officially released, and even got it burned onto a CD-R for my personal enjoyment before I could buy a copy at the store. This way it was easier to realize that the original CD sounded badly when compared to the MP3s, when it normally should be right the opposite! Needless to say I returned the CD and decided not to buy any other crippled CD, as I consider them all defective.

There are many webpages with good arguments why you should not buy crippled CDs, and some people have already posted some of these. Just to name a few:

• Consumers have the right of making a copy for their personal use. Aware of this fact, blank CDs manufacturer are forced to pay additional taxes to music companies (in Spain it has become effective since the 1st of September, and it is the SGAE which collects this revolutionary tax), and so are practically enforcing this right, but then they don't want us to use this right - which they make us pay for; it is not a free right!
• You get a format which may not be playable in future equipment you buy. Companies will want us to believe that future hardware will be better and more suited to play crippled media. Wrong: Future hardware will support a fraction of crippled media, and actually the public is becoming increasingly interested in being able to play MP3s on their regular equipment. Hardware able to play MP3 (and so, able to read CDs as data) will normally have difficult or be simply unable to play crippled CDs.
• Companies want us to install software in PC+Windows/Macs+MacOS in order to play those CDs (those with copy control). Linux stays out of the game, because nobody uses Linux... :-P Also, I assume that hardware manufacturers are willing to pay M$ a licence rather than going the embedded Linux way...
• Crippled CDs are achieved by breaking many safety rules worked out to make CDs more resistant to dust, stains, scratches and the passing of time. This is achieved using redundancy, which goes out in these inferior CDs which are not cheaper than their real counterpart.
• If you can hear it, you can copy it. But maybe you will not copy if there are other CDs which can be more easily copied, and so companies prefer to make things difficult for you.
• If you can copy it, pirates can copy it as well. Also, pirates will bother to make copies whenever there is money to be gotten.
• Cheaper CDs bundled with extras which take respect for the consumer tend to create a consumer base that will want the real thing. Crippled format is not a bonus feature.
• I think that no one has mentioned that some music companies (Universal?) stated that they would no longer label crippled CDs as crippled. Should they do that, it would make it easier to get cases into courts, but would many people bother to do so?

With all this in mind, my only conclussion is that eventual trials may do good for getting atention on this matter, but the only viable solution would be to get crippled CDs considered a dishonest and illegal practice, forcing music companies to release all their stuff in the real format.

Months I created a mailing list called Contra-Proteccion-CDs (Spanish only, sorry), just to get some attention on this issue. I think it would be a good thing if other people tried the same thing, always as a way of making local consumer asotiations aware of this problem.

Canard! Salaud!

[dpille]

Vous devez dire:

Quant a moi, je fais bon accueil a nos nouveaux seigneurs et maitres francais.

Re:Frances loses out there

[jorgen]

In Iraq, France proppsed up Saddam Hussein as he executed 100,000 or so a year.... while the US is rebuilding the place.

Excuse me? Like the US didn't help Iraq build its military and WMD capabilities, especially during its war against Iran.

You don't have to dig deep to find that from 1982 to 1990 the United States supplied Iraq with not only conventional arms and cash but also chemical and biological materials, including the precursors for anthrax and botulism, so point your own dirty finger elsewhere.

Re:Rimshot-Zeinfeld's Francophile writings

[gadlaw]

You said. "From this we can deduce two things, first that the French can be insufferably arrogant..." This is quite correct. The other thing you said, "The other thing we may deduce is that despite the fact they are frequently arrogant and obnoxious the French are frequently right..." is completely and absurdly wrong. Witness their love of Jerry Lewis, witness their recent decision to use Woody Allen to promote tourism in France. Witness the whole history of France. And as for French advice on 'Vietnam'- um you do know enough history to realize that Vietnam was a French colony don't you? You do know some little thing about the Cold War perhaps? You know, the one the US won in the end by specifically not taking any advice from France. But that would involve knowing some history I think. You are wrong.

France and war

[Anonymous Coward]

Verdun
nuf said, shut up

Does this also apply to 10gb drive out of XBox

[thorpie]

The 10Gb drive out of XBoxes are useless, they are password protected, Low level formats etc do not work. When I installed a larger drive in the Xbox I expected to have a usable 10 gb drive. As I wasn't advised the drive was disabled when I bought the Xbox what is the chance of suing to get the cost of the drive back?

Re:Does this also apply to 10gb drive out of XBox

[toddestan]

My guess is no chance, as Microsoft in no way has advertised the XBox's hard drive as a standard PC hard drive. Did you also expect that the Pentium chip they put in the thing would also be a standard chip you could slap in a standard PC board? Or that it came with a standard network card? Besides, in the USA - where the corporations own the government, it would seem that you are already on shaky ground just for taking the thing apart in the first place.

I don't even think you'd have a case if you bought some OEM computer and found out that the drive was keyed to work only in that brand of computer. Heck, I know IBM had some seriously propriety stuff going on with the PS/2's (hard drives that had a special connector and controller card that would only work on a card that went on IBM's own MCA bus). I know people didn't like it because it stunk, but I never heard of anyone suing over it.

They have to output analog at some point

[jridley]

Unless everyone gets digital inputs wired into their brains. Admittedly, you'd have to get nice high quality speakers and microphones to do the recording if it was DRMd right up to the speakers.

Nettwerk Records offering CD exchange

[Pixie]

The Be Good Tanyas web site states that Nettwerk Records in Canada is offering to exchange the copy-controlled Be Good Tanyas CDs that EMI released in Canada. Nettwerk is a pretty cool label, and I'm glad to see that they have done this -- let's hope other labels affiliated with EMI follow suit. As for me, I found that the US version of the Tanyas CD was not copy-controlled, but the Canadian version was, so I bought my copy in the States. The same happened with the new Radiohead CD: it was copy-protected here, but the US version wasn't.

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[amRadioHed]

They want TVs, DVD players, CD players, general computers, pretty much anything that displays copyrighted digital content to not have any analog output, only digital with DRM controls.

So, when speakers and monitors are made illegal, then we'll all need to get firewire or some other such ports installed in our temporal lobes, right? I hope that my insurance will cover the costs of the surgery.

Source of Rights - O'Connor!

[SpikeSpiff]

You have no rights. Rights in this country are granted by congress.

Troll! Everyone knows that our rights all come from Sandra Day O'Connor, the swing vote on the Supreme Court!

Re:She's still stupid

[Rude Turnip]

"unsuitable for consumption."

Unsuitable for consumption has nothing to do with personal preferences. It is a term that refers to products with characteristics or components that don't meet certain standards for safety. In other words, injury will (not may) occur if consumed. Although the coffee eventually cools down after time, MC_D admitted that it was unsuitable for consumption *when it was served.* It doesn't matter that some people prefer to drink it later on...clearly many other people prefer to have their drink shortly after being served.

Let's just ignore this whole left/right argument, because people on both sides say the same things about one another.

Racist.

[zihamesh]

"... the French can be insufferably arrogant for such a small country ..."
Je ne pas Francais or summit like that. But being British I as a thing or two 'bout the frogs. So what 'ave CD's gorra do wit t' war on't Iraq ?

Oh and the French are a member of the G7/8, and also on the UN's permanent security council. Which means that they ain't exactly small.

But back to the question of the CD's, "Did the buyer also claim for time wasted in getting a refund, and for the consequential physiological stress ?"

Copy protection should not be banned...

[BoneFlower]

Though, disclosure of techniques should be mandatory.

If it is marketed as a standard audio CD, and it fails to play in a CDDA compliant device, refund.

If it says "may not play in all devices" and your device that won't play it is not on their list of devices that don't play it, refund.

However, if the industry wants to copy protect, let them so long as they are up front if it might interfere with playback, and offer refunds if it fails to play in a device they do not specifically state won't play it.

Re:She's still stupid

[squarooticus]

Okay, I'll ignore the masochistic for the moment.

It doesn't matter that some people prefer to drink it later on...clearly many other people prefer to have their drink shortly after being served.

Then let them buy their coffee at Dunkin Donuts, so those who are smart enough not to drink hot liquids in a car and therefore need to have their coffee sit undrunk (undrinked?) for a period of time have the liberty of drinking warm coffee when they get where they're going.

so what this basically comes down to is...

[baximus]

the rights of the consumer to do what they want with their purchases (i.e. copy them and give copies to friends) vs the rights of the record companies to protect their property and their business. if they decide in favour of the consumers, the record companies no longer see profits in their business and simply stop making and selling music.

Re:Rimshot-Zeinfeld's Francophile writings

[Zeinfeld]

Witness their love of Jerry Lewis, witness their recent decision to use Woody Allen to promote tourism in France. Witness the whole history of France.

Err are you saying that the French are wrong to admire Woody Allen and Jerry Lewis? I think these are motre occasions that prove them right.

Witness the whole history of France. And as for French advice on 'Vietnam'- um you do know enough history to realize that Vietnam was a French colony don't you?

All the more reason to have taken notice of de Gaulle's warning. The French did not leave Vietnam from choice and they understood that the situation was unwinnable.

You do know some little thing about the Cold War perhaps? You know, the one the US won in the end by specifically not taking any advice from France. But that would involve knowing some history I think. You are wrong.

Oh dear, I don't know who won Vietnam according to Fox news but according to most of the mainstream news sources the US lost that one.

On the off-chance that you were referring to the US 'winning' the cold war, I fail to see the relevance of the claim which is dubious in any case. The USSR certainly lost the cold war, but Vietnam was backed by China, not the USSR and according to the news sources I read Vietnam and China are still communist. I don't know about Fox news, their coverage of China tends to be decided by Rupert's need to keep in well with the communist dictatorship so they will let him continue to broadcast star TV.

Re:Welcome !

[uncoveror]

If it won't play, it's a lemon! That's what groups like dontbuycds.org have been saying all along. It is great that some courts around the world are starting to get it.

Re:Rimshot-Zeinfeld's Francophile writings

[gadlaw]

There are none so blind as those who cannot see. If you cannot even accept the fact that the US won the cold war I don't know that there is a whole lot I or anyone can do for you. So there isn't much point in pointing out all of your errors. Again, you don't seem to have a grasp of history my friend. Take care, stay away from sharp objects and let me know how your recall of President Bush goes.

Re:Welcome !

[lilricky]

They do work in France, but some companies' cds are copy-protected in a way that makes car cd players, cdroms and some other types of players unable to play them.

Crippled = Defective

[yuvtob]

Finally - crippled are considered defective !
Wait a minute, that doesn't sound right...

A new breed of CD

[gfreeman]

So if a CD won't play, it's an "American CD",
but if it does, it's a "Freedom CD"?

didn't Phillips stop the use of the CD logo...

[geoff lane]

on copyprotected discs that were not to the published CD standards?

In which case, if EMI or their distributers are still selling defective disks as CDs Phillips will soon be setting their attack lawyers on them :-)

I broke it and complained too..

[mattr]

Well I'm not going to stick my neck out but their copy protection can be easily broken by a popular unix tool that I found after ten minutes of searching the net for it. Starts with "cdp" if that helps..

I had been presented with an EMI audio cd with their lousy Copy Control CD protection scheme, actually this is I think Macrovision/Cactus Data Shield's thing which Avex proceeded to dump all over Japan. There's windows stuff which does it too it seems.

Well I had just seen this concert as a guest of the producer and I got the CD for free. I get back for a long coding session over the weekend and want to play it on my linux laptop of course..

Well after some swearing and wasted a lot of time I solved my personal problem and no, I'm not sharing it to the masses. Even though I suspect EMI has either done a bad job of the production, or has suffered reduced quality due to this scheme (I don't know if it is true but I read somewhere that these are really just 46 kbps wmf files.. if so that is robbery).

I told the producer that they should stop using that protection which in addition to making the cd not work on my laptop or in car stereos, also is quite easy to break, plus the recording either sucks or it is made worse by the protection scheme. I certainly wouldn't buy a cd with that protection on it normally.

I don't know if this is going to make a difference but I hope these organizations get as many complaints as possible from people who are seriously pissed about this situation. The artist of course knows nothing about the issue, it is not really considered by most people in the business either yet, the protection scheme just gets steamrolled everywhere as a matter of policy I'm sure. If you have a similar situation (especially if you've actually paid for the cd, since I got mine free) please tell them.

Re:She's still stupid

[Rude Turnip]

This still does not excuse innocent bystanders who have been burned by the coffee and others who have had their coffee spilled on them by employees.

Re:Frances loses out there

[japhmi]

In Iraq, France proppsed up Saddam Hussein

Excuse me? Like the US didn't help Iraq build its military and WMD capabilities.

One could argue that it's a matter of proportion. After all, one can very easily find a chart that shows who gave how much to Iraq during Hussein's rule quite easily. Hmmm... US: 1%, France: 13%. Heck, Brazil gave Iraq more (2%)!

So, yes, the US gave Hussein some weapons during a limited period of time. France, however, profited from Saddam and his brutal regime much more.

Re:I'm surprised and didn't read the article

[IM6100]

Does the CD manufacturer claim Red-Book compliance anywhere on the packaging?

I'm not

[ArcSecond]

Is the US the home of the frivilous lawsuit? Yes.

Is the lady who successfully sued McDonalds for serving her coffee it KNEW was too hot to be safe an example? No.

[from http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/vivienne/438/r ants139.html ]

Here are some other facts in the case that you may be unaware of:

1.) For years, McDonald's were aware they had a problem with the way they make their coffee -- that their coffee was served much hotter than the industry standard by at least 20 degrees. In fact, they knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries -- more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation. Yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue. It has been said that serving coffee this hot reduces the amount of coffee a restaurant has to make in a day and optimizes taste. Therefore, they make more money.

2.) A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.

3.) The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills. Her injuries were serious -- third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay. In all, she was burned over six percent of her body.

4.) The woman was sitting in the passenger seat of a car driven by her grandson. They went through a drive through, then he pulled to a stop out of the way of the next car behind them so she could open the coffee. It was then, in a stopped car, that the coffee spilled. One myth of this case is that she was driving the car and tried to open the coffee while the car was moving. And, finally,

5.) A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees or more hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

Yeah, so let's all have a big Libertarian weep-fest for poor old Mickey Dee's. They are obviously the victims here.

Don't "Boycott" .... "Buy And Return"

[TomDLux]

Go to the music store and buy a CD which has copy protection. Take it home, open it, attempt to play it on your stereo. If it works, try it in the car, in the bathroom CD, at your parents place. Once you find a machine which won't play it, return the CD to the store as defective. They'll give you another copy. A few days later, you can take that back, as defective.

Eventually they'll refuse to give you another CD. If they don't refund your purchase pricee, you can charge the store with theft. If you've been dealing with a national chain, make it a class action suit.

Re:Frances loses out there

[bogado]

I never said that this country or that country do better or not. I just believe that military is poor choice to measure the greatness of a country.

Re:Frances loses out there

[nyseal]

Morality....what a word. It can be used to describe SO much; even duality. America accepted France's help during the Revolution. Were they supporting terrorism, independence or a self-serving role in Europe? America gave assistance to France during WWII. Were we supporting terrorism, independence or a self-serving role in Europe? Whatever the answer, please do not lecture, *Yawn*, on the morality of a country whose motives may be less than honorable. There's been a lot of that going on for centuries and it's not just those two countries; Iraq included. That is all.

"for such a small country"

[caitsith01]

Small how?

France has 50 odd million people. They are a nuclear power. They are scientifically and culturally advanced. They have a mighty history that has arguably contributed more to the concepts of democracy and freedom than the USA has.

As for arrogance, there is really no contest these days as to which nation is the most arrogant. Most countries prefer not to rant on about being somehow special and better than the rest of the world, god's chosen country, the unique home of freedom, the most powerful nation in history and suchlike bullcrap. Most other countries also prefer not to rampage around the globe invading people like a bear with a sore head.

Just because you're militarily powerful, it doesn't make you great. I believe most people have a better idea of what the US's interests are than the current leaders of that fine nation.