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Crippled CD Deemed Defective In France
Noryungi writes "The daily newspaper Liberation reports that at least one person got her money back, by suing EMI, no less. She was able to do that with the help of the largest consumer organization in France, which has its own list of articles on this subject.
So, French people who cannot read their copy-protected CDs can get their money back, but copy protection is not made illegal by the court decision... It's certainly a step in the right direction, though..."
For the French-impaired, an anonymous reader adds "The Register has a good article on EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect' -- it wouldn't work on a car's CD player ... Is the tide changing?"
EMI surrenders to France?!
Wow, I really don't blame EMI. I mean, who could have known beforehand that they wouldn't work in some extremely common devices? Come on, guys. Testing can only go so far before they have to release it into the real world. And I'm sure that for the tuesday afternoon that they DID test compatability, they were very thorough.
I am a filthy pirate.
There is an Act that if passed will require clear lables on all copy protected CDs. From EFF:
t em =2664
Senator Ron Wyden recently introduced the Digital Consumer Right-to-Know Act (DCRKA), a bill that would require entertainment companies to label products with copy-protections that limit consumer use. Support the DCRKA if you think the content industry should be ordered to clearly label media that restricts your rights!
http://action.eff.org/action/index.asp?step=2&i
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
that they got their money back, considering that most of those CDs have warning labels on them like a PC with an 'X' through it.
I guess that if a woman can get millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself, someone else can get a refund for a CD that they couldn't play in their computer.
I hope this encourages record labels to stop making that type of CD!!
More than enough BS
don't worry, next week the riaa will send to france a man wielding a sharp stick and german accent to sort this mess out.
It's good to see not all countries have turned themselves over to corporate interests, but a victory in France (which doesn't exactly have a history of putting foreign corporate interests ahead of their own citizens) doesn't say much about the tide in the US.
Jason
ProfQuotes
Hey, we got the bomb now! We'll never surrender! Screw you EMI!
Seems like they've proved that EMI made defective disks, shouldn't a recall be necessary?
I actually e-mailed EMI about the copy protection on the new Jane's addiction CD. Here is the reply I have recieved:
"We are in receipt of your email and regret you have experienced a problem with one of our products.
The technology we are using is designed to ensure that the disc plays on multiple devices. There have been playability problems with a very small number of players, but the vast majority of these problems have been fixable by our technology suppliers as they are constantly updating and improving the technology that is included in the copy controlled discs.
As long as consumers alert us to the problem we will endeavor to adapt the copy control technology.
Please forward your address as we search for a replacement from another territory. Thank you.
Regards,
Emi Music Canada
Quality Control Dept
1 (866) 553-0220"
Once (and if) Apple gets their iTunes music store over to windows, and into international markets we will slowly begin to see the CD market go the way of the horse and buggy.
The market has been declining for years due to high prices, and formulaic content... there is still a possibility record labels may become more innovative and profitable with newer technologies.
I think that it's about time these huge record labels had some sense knocked into them (even if it is by the french government).
You are kidding, right? Do you honestly believe that EMI, let alone the record industry as a whole, is going to change their practices because of a single insignificant law suite that cost them a single CD and court costs? Here comes the clue train.
This will have no impact on them whatever. They will continue with business as usual and for each returned CD that they get, they will sell millions.
The only way for there to be a "changing tide" is if they are seriously affected monetarily, as in a major drop in sales, or if they are legally bound by a class action suite or something similar.
EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect'
What beautiful wording. And absolutely true. If you purchase data, it should be that, data, plain and simple, with no extras or hitches.
Theory and Philsophy lesson 1 for Copy protection companies:
If you can read it, you can copy it.
I think they already know that deep down. So their idea is to make the data harder and harder to read... to the point where it becomes defective.
...morons
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
"Achete par une consommatrice, Francoise Marc, dans un hypermarche Auchan, le CD d'Alain Souchon etait illisible sur l'autoradio de sa Clio."
A PC with an X through it doesn't really help to show that the CD doesn't play in your car. If that isn't enough, most DVD players don't play these, either. This policy is starting to really piss consumers off. As far as I know, most retailers around here (Germany, that is) just take all the CDs back, if you give them "it doesn't play on my DVD/car stereo/discman" as the reason.
If you believe
the study referenced in this article, then the whole issue of copy protecting audio CDs is pretty much dead in the water anyway.
This is very interesting, and was probably the right thing to do.
After all, when one sells a disc that looks like a standard CD in a store that sells standard CDs, especially on the same racks as standard CDs, it is a reasonable assumption for the consumer to believe that the product is a standard CD.
If there were significant visible markings on the disc that said something to the effect of "This disc does not meet the red-book standard for Compact Disc Digital Audio" then it would be reasonable to allow the sale of the crippled CD -- after all, the manufacturer has made it apparent that this disc is not a Compact Disc, but that it *might* support some of the same functionality. If you are concerned, don't buy, if you buy, well, you were warned.
This is how I feel the "broken CD game" should be played. I have no problem with companies trying to peddle "broken" CDs, just so long as every consumer knows that it is "broken"
As for the CDs/DVDs that become opaque after a certain time? I'm not sure what to do there. You see, the trouble stems from the fact that, until it becomes opaque, the disc conforms to the standard. Still, I am certain that an appropriate "warning label" can be determined.
In the end, it ought to be up to an informed market to decide whether "broken" or "sudden-death" media are acceptable -- not the government to mandate.
That said, I applaud the decision made, and will continue to support these kinds of decisions until it is made blindingly obvious which disks are crippled
Should read:
Differently-Abled CD Deemed Special In France
I doubt that this means much. Just like the guy who was able to get $200 back from some major OEM for Windows XP by taking it to small claims, it's not going to change "business". It will take hundreds of those kind of lawsuits and the accompanying legal bills to make a difference. I mean, if you're spending $1 million in attorney's fees to represent a company for $100k in refunds, what do you think you're going to do? Look at how effective "our" /. boycott on the RIAA, Sony, Disney, et al is. A few loud mouth geeks don't mean anything in the real world. Remember high school? Remember how nobody listened to you because you were just a nerd and were "uncool"? What makes you think things have changed just because you're an adult? We can raise a stink, but no one cares. They're still writing the checks, consuming like mindless idiots, and the vocal minority still doesn't get what we want. You have to think to yourself that most of the Joe Consumer's out there will buy a defective product and if it doesn't work, are still too lazy to take it back (see Radar Jammers).
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
At my work we don't have a CD player and a audio set. We all have computers, CD-ROM players and a set of speakers. I can not listen at my work to some CD's I have bought. I am not doing anything illegal and I can not listen to my own bought CD's.
I hope that a similar case will hit the courts as well. I don't want to rip my CD's and make MP3's, I just want to listen to the music. Why do I have to be punished for something I did not do? Getting my money back is no option, I can play my CD's back home on my normal audio set, but I don't like it when I am programming that I can not listen to my good-mood-programming-music.
I have to applaud their Court's decision on this matter.
If the CD doesn't play in certain devices, it's defective. Period.
When is the RIAA going to realize that they're eroding their own customer base with lawsuits, faulty products and such. Especially when the end product costs almost $20 a pop.
I've bought precious little music since the advent of copy-protection, though it doens't help that theoverall quality of music lately has declined. Until such defects are corrected, I'll simply continue my stance.
The Pigloo
The copy protected CD you buy today may run on your current CD player. But what about your next CD player? How much percent of your CD collection will not run on the new player?
heise.de has setup a register for copy protected CDs and on which drives/players they are playable. The results so far show, that the copy protection is not PC drive specific. Some CD players do play some copy protected CDs, some players don't. The same goes for CD-ROM drives. Depends on the copy protection system also. Thus you can't tell which copy protection system will stop your next CD player from playing the CD.
Thus the record companies are FORCING music fans to make a digital copy (which is a crime in Germany now if you have to circumvent a copy protection mechansim).
Possibly a stupid question: Does a copy-protected CD actually follow the CD specification from Philips et al.?
It is understandable that the music industry would want to have copy-protection on the CDs they distribute to curb piracy. However, their current piecemeal approach leads to situations such as these - where some CDs can be read only in some readers.
Secondly, this type of copy-protection is a clear violation of the rights of any person who buys such a CD. Under U.S. and Canadian copyright laws (I don't know the European equivalents), a person has the right to make one copy of a legally purchased CD for backup/archival purposes.
I suggest that the Music Industry come together and create a new standard for copyright protection that
And if you were living in the states, you'd have committed a federal crime, by violating the DMCA. As you circumvented a copy protection system.
It's crippled too.
Latest outrage: I can't format drives as FAT32 under XP. Just found this out yesterday.
The reason why:
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Interestingly, the Brazilian CD which was defective (Tribalistas, featuring Marisa Monte, Arnaldo Antunes, and Carlinhos Brown) was not copy-protected in the US (I was worried after reading this article, but I bought a copy and had no problems reading it on my Mac).
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
I normally consider myself a die-hard american. I tend to support our government through thick and thin. But as of late, it seems like European government (courts especially) are the only ones that care to protect their citizens. Look back through Slashdot articles for the past week or two. You'll see what I mean.
I had never considered moving to another country. But the more European governments step up to this crap while our own government takes the DMCA attitude, the better my chances of visiting the EU for an extended stay.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
Whats offensive?
Have you ever heard any french pop music?
It'll make you run screaming to the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
What if you needed special glasses to see the great works of art from the Renasance?
Copyright law is about giving companies a way to profit from selling their works for a limited time before said works become part of our collective culture. Just because computers enter into the picture does not make it okay to take a jackhammer to tradition.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
A while ago, I heard that philips wasn't going to allow the crippled CDs to be called Compact Discs because it doesn't follow the Compact Disc Spec. Is that true or does anymore have more information about that?
According to this article, FAT32 can be up to 8 TB. However, due to limitations in Windows 2000 and XP's FAT driver, it can only create a FAT32 filesystem as large as 32 GB.
Contrast this with the Digital Online Right-to-Know Act (DORKA), which would let us geeks know when the RIAA is spying on our P2P activity in an attempt to limit consumer use.
if the new media can be plugged into anything that can be programmed, the game is over. Even if it's not, you can still re-capture the (analog) audio with a sound card and make a pretty good copy. it's not perfect but but people will still do it. I don't think there's anything the RIAA can do at this point. And this is the tale of what's to come for the movie industry with DVD ripping/burning.
there's no place like ~
One of the least effective ways of getting something to stop is telling people to stop doing it (especially on /.)
When a thing has been said, and said well, have no scruple. Take it and copy it. --Anatole France
On the one hand, you link to a (very accurate) anti-Bush site in your sig. On the other, you've bought into the anti-French propaganda pushed by the same right-wing idiots that site criticizes. The fact is that the French military record overall is no better or worse than the record of most of the other great powers. Win a few, lose a few; that's the way it goes.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
That works quite well for somethings, games consoles with proprietory storage devices like cartridges, but it becomes expensive. PS2's have DVD drives and that works pretty well because a) not as many people have DVD writers and b) it requires modding the hardware. The only reason i have ever bought PS2 games is because its too hard for me to copy or download them but thats only temporary - if i ever got a dvd burner and could easily download full iso's or swap with friends then that would be it for paying. With music its very different. Music is just sound in the end and whatever lock-in hardware system you design, as long as it has an output someone will have an input ;) Although they are trying this anyway with their stupid new system i cant remember what the piece of shit is called..
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
There is actually a group of standards that apply to CDs. The trick is figuring out what exactly is happening on any particular disc. For example, in the official Compact Disc Logo Guide published by Philips, there are different logos to show discs compliant to the following standards:
There is actually a specification for each one of these logos. Also, there is no guarantee that a CD-ROM drive will be able to play a CD-DA disc (per the spec, though the spec says that it would be easy, and it is).
There is an effort underway to understand all of this stuff and to figure out how these things work together, and with various types of hardware. The project has an Open Source (BSD-style license) package called CD Verity that performs some testing of discs. The software is part of Interhack's Digital Media Project and might be of interest.
My CD-players say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" and not "Copy-Controlled CD", therefore, my CD-players are not compatible with these CDs and must be returned. Period.
:( The store didn't even make me aware of this, naturally, they just want to sell whatever they have blindly.
BTW: Have any of you seen the Copy-Controlled labels on these CDs? It's always on a TRANSPARENT sticker, making it as hard as possible to spot, but just enough to hold in court. Slick! I sure as hell didn't know until I put it in my CD-player on the computer at home, finding it wouldn't play. The CD (Radiohead) was returned.
As for these Midbar/Macrovision guys (the guys who made these "protections" (*cough* programmers with screw-drivers *cough*)), they must be wizards in the field of business. I mean, managing to fool the music industry giving them false hopes like this.
Midbar/Macrovision
Why the protection is completely useless: if you can play it, you can copy it. I don't see how it matters with copy-controlled CDs in that respect. Especially in the Internet world, where it's enough with one person sharing it, and given the fact that audio compressions are lossy means that it doesn't matter much what the heck your source was when recording it quality-wise.
Geez. Wake up!
Yeah, whatever. But this article really made my day. At least someone pays attention to this open injustice.
Neither disc has the CD logo on it, and both had very large stickers on the shrink-wrap with this logo on it and descriptions of what it meant, and what systems you should be able to play it on. (Since I refused to install the software necessary to actually play these on a computer, I have no idea how well they work in that respect.) I'm certainly going to avoid these from here on out if I can. I've noticed that amazon.co.uk, amazon.fr and amazon.de will occasionally note that a disc is copy-protected, so I'm going to check there first before buying from here on out.
Your mileage may vary, but mine is constant.
Thanks for your e-mail and we are sorry you have experienced playability issues with the new [CD removed] and your PC.
It would help us a lot if we could get the model details of your PC so that we can make sure that the compatibility issue will be resolved as we continue to evolve this technology.
If you could attempt the following and send the resulting file to us, it would help a lot. Go to START -->Programs-->Accessories-->System Tools-->System Information. Please save this information as a text or nfo file and send that back to us.
Please note that you will require at least "Power Users" access or higher to install the application on Microsoft Windows NT operating systems and above.
With these details we can forward your query onto our European technology partner.
Please be aware that, if you prefer, you can return the copy controlled CD to the place of purchase to obtain a refund. (my emphasis)
sincerely
[name removed]
IT & New Media Director
> Hi
> I recently bought [CD removed], with your copy control stuff on it. When I try and play it on my computer, it uses 100% CPU, and also sounds terrible. There is a lot of high pitched screeching, and it cracks and sounds scratchy. All normal CDs sound fine. >
> What should I do? I play most music on my computer, and your label says it works fine, but it doesn't at all.
> Regards, [name removed]
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
Excuse me? Like the US didn't help Iraq build its military and WMD capabilities, especially during its war against Iran.
You don't have to dig deep to find that from 1982 to 1990 the United States supplied Iraq with not only conventional arms and cash but also chemical and biological materials, including the precursors for anthrax and botulism, so point your own dirty finger elsewhere.
My guess is no chance, as Microsoft in no way has advertised the XBox's hard drive as a standard PC hard drive. Did you also expect that the Pentium chip they put in the thing would also be a standard chip you could slap in a standard PC board? Or that it came with a standard network card? Besides, in the USA - where the corporations own the government, it would seem that you are already on shaky ground just for taking the thing apart in the first place.
I don't even think you'd have a case if you bought some OEM computer and found out that the drive was keyed to work only in that brand of computer. Heck, I know IBM had some seriously propriety stuff going on with the PS/2's (hard drives that had a special connector and controller card that would only work on a card that went on IBM's own MCA bus). I know people didn't like it because it stunk, but I never heard of anyone suing over it.
I had been presented with an EMI audio cd with their lousy Copy Control CD protection scheme, actually this is I think Macrovision/Cactus Data Shield's thing which Avex proceeded to dump all over Japan. There's windows stuff which does it too it seems.
Well I had just seen this concert as a guest of the producer and I got the CD for free. I get back for a long coding session over the weekend and want to play it on my linux laptop of course..
Well after some swearing and wasted a lot of time I solved my personal problem and no, I'm not sharing it to the masses. Even though I suspect EMI has either done a bad job of the production, or has suffered reduced quality due to this scheme (I don't know if it is true but I read somewhere that these are really just 46 kbps wmf files.. if so that is robbery).
I told the producer that they should stop using that protection which in addition to making the cd not work on my laptop or in car stereos, also is quite easy to break, plus the recording either sucks or it is made worse by the protection scheme. I certainly wouldn't buy a cd with that protection on it normally.
I don't know if this is going to make a difference but I hope these organizations get as many complaints as possible from people who are seriously pissed about this situation. The artist of course knows nothing about the issue, it is not really considered by most people in the business either yet, the protection scheme just gets steamrolled everywhere as a matter of policy I'm sure. If you have a similar situation (especially if you've actually paid for the cd, since I got mine free) please tell them.