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Microsoft Plans IE Changes Due to Plugin Patent
aWalrus writes "Microsoft has outlined some of the strategies they may pursue for modifying the way Internet Explorer handles plugins (annoying the user may circumvent the patent) if they lose their legal battle against Eolas Technologies (which claims they invented the seamless procedure for running plugins). There has already been a previous ruling against MS which they continue to appeal. This is likely to have repercussions in the Open Source Community too. If MS is found to be infringing the patent, that ruling could be extended to other browsers like Opera and Mozilla. Usability expert Jeffrey Zeldman provides an in-depth commentary on this issue and its implications."
At first when I heard this, I wasn't too disappointed. That's what they get for stealing technology. But no Flash in IE? That affects...well...*does some mental math...carry the 1...*a lot of websites that I enjoy. If you can't seamlessly play Flash media in IE (or Mozilla or Opera, eventually), well that sucks. Who the hell are these Eolas guys and are they intentionally trying to send the Web's progress back about six years? For once, I think Microsoft has been wronged, mostly due to the implication that this will affect ALL web browsers.
Why not pay the $521 mil and keep the browser going? If MS can pay it and the competitors cannot then they will become the platform of choice due to functionality.
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't plugin installations in Mozilla (and opera? no xp) not seamless? I thought this lawsuit applied only to seamless plugin installers that can isntall the plugin without asking for input. In my experience, mozilla always pops up a dialog box asking if you want to install it. That only makes sense, security-wise anyway.
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
This is a perfect example of why software patents are bad. While I enjoy watching MS wiggle at the end of a hook just like everyone else here, this will definatly effect the Open Source community. A lot of the web's best features revolve around plugins in the web browser. A company like MS might be able to pay the little company enough money to let them keep doing business as usual, but how could the Mozilla team, or the Opera team? They could be forced to "downgrade" their programs, thus being less useful/relavent than IE. And if MS can't/won't pay them off, then everyone will suffer from the loss of plugins in web browsers. This is something that doesn't just affect the geek community. It will cause huge ripples through the corporate world and in the home user markets. All because people can get patents on software. I'm moving to Europe (if things go well over there that is).
Space for rent, inquire within
It uses plugins for more then just crap on the web.. Which personally i wont miss.. what ever happend to just using standard HTML?
But what about the other 'plugins' such as smb support.. etc..
Considering its all 'intergrated'..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Yeah, patents suck and all, but there's one thing I'm not understanding here.
If Microsoft is forced to pay off Eolas, doesn't that mean they've paid for the patent? Does anyone seriously think that Eolas won't license the patent to Microsoft, or even be forced to by the judge? Why is the assumption that Microsoft will automatically be forced to remove the technology when they just paid half a billion dollars for it?
I admit I'd like to see Microsoft forced to remove it to highlight the fact that patent criticisms like mine are grounded in solid reality and not abstract fantasy, but I just can't see that happening this time. Instead, Microsoft will probably just pony up, because unless they really realize this is going to keep happening, over and over again, they probably still think the patent system is still a net gain for them, allowing them to use the system like this against certain pesky start-ups that may refuse to be bought out.
absolutely true, and I have read that Eolas was more interested in going against MS, simply because they were MS (quotes like 'this should level the browser playing field against those evil monopolists').
However, that's all rumour and/or speculation - even if Eolas *says* they won't go against Mozilla, who's to say they really won't. And Mozilla group won't have $500m to cough up if Eolas changed its mind sometime in the future, probably they'd get even more because they could then claim these browsers knew about the legal position, and ignored it.
So, would you stake all your assets on that?
No, so almost certainly, the alternative browser developers are going to have to cover themselves. This patent simply hurts everyone.
(there is another version: MS in conjuntion with Macromedia, Adobe etc, creates an alternative to the plug-in which they incorporate into IE. The majority of the web sites start using it, leaving the alternative browsers even less ability to keep up.)
What about this article in Cringely's pulpit?
0 7. html
,
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit200211
"It would sure be nice for someone to actually consider all of this
from our point of view, rather than MS's," wrote Doyle in a recent
message to me. "It amazes me that everyone just assumes that MS will be
able to merely write a check and make the whole thing go away. What if
someone went through the following, purely theoretical, of course
logical analysis?"
"Is there any practical settlement amount that is worth more to Eolas than a
victory at trial? Considering the facts in the case and the magnitude of the
stakes here, a highly likely outcome is that it will actually go to trial,
and, once it does, that a jury will award us both damages and an injunction.
Injunction is the key word here. That is what patent rights provide: the
power to exclude. What if we were to just say no? Or, what if some other big
player were to acquire or merge with us? What if only one best-of-breed
browser could run embedded plug-ins, applets, ActiveX controls, or anything
like them, and it wasn't IE? How competitive would the other browsers be
without those capabilities? How would that change the current dynamics in
the Industry?"
Sounds like Doyle is not a Microsoft fan...
æeee!
If this goes through, I could lose my job.
The company I work for has flash and windows media all over the place, and sells a content management system, one of the key features of which is the management of these types of media.
I don't think the company would survive such a change in this environment.
Damn the USA.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Firstly, I don't want "fundamental" browser technologies patented.
Secondly, this is apparently applets too, not just plug ins. Seems to say that embedding that JAR file puts you on the wrong side of da law.
Does their patent only cover "on the web"? Do plugins in winamp or the like meet the criteria too?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
exactly. no-one can just keep on keeping on and hope that Eolas doesn't blind side them whenever they feel.
You have to develop the alternatives now - which means you're taking the hit just as much as microsoft.
much harder actually, as microsoft has so many talented hands onboard - they can keep their time back to market smaller than anyone else. Opera would be a mess for much longer than IE.
furthermore, can OSS even rely on Eolas -saying- they won't prosecute? It'd be like SCO successfully suing IBM for using their SMP code, and then saying 'don't worry guys, i won't come for you next'. are you going to trust SCO? so how could you trust Eolas?
i mean, its not like microsoft's implimentation of plugins is what gave it the advantage. taking plugins away will not level the playing field. it will force Microsoft to angle for a proprietary seamless solution - that ultimately will be a huge loss for everyone.
if IE can no longer have embedded movie trailers in its browser, or embedded shockwave files - then it simply creates an alternative. Some MS-proprietary data streaming service. if there is no hypertext involved - then it doesn't infringe on the patent. you can have plugins and seamless integration all you want if it isn't 'hypermedia'.
which simply means - unless things change - expect to see a beefed up version of Media Player and a proprietary content network to support it.
this is a terrible loss for open standards.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
Now, don't get me wrong; I don't think there's anything wrong with a browser downloading Flash, or data in any other format.
What I find really annoying is that current browsers insist that they are going to handle a list of file formats themselves, in their own window, and you can't do anything about it.
If they were forced to give me the option of saying to handle MIME type foo/bar in a separate app, that would be a huge improvement.
For example, on my cute new Powerbook, I've found that I can't feed things like Flash or XML to an independent app. The browsers (IE, mozilla, Safari) insist that they will handle those themselves, with their standard plugin. It doesn't matter whether I have an app of my own to handle them; my attempts to add the handler to the list are rebuffed.
The XML case is especially annoying. I'me testing some XML apps, and I'd really like to use some of them as plugins. I've asked a couple of times in the usual mozilla fora, and the answer seems to be "Tough luck; we're smarter than you, and we know how to handle XML, so we won't let you do it." Right. Their XML handler chokes on the slightest syntax error, fails to show any of the text, and thus gives a big middle finger to any poor schmuck trying to debug his XML generator.
Similarly, when I download MP3s or MIDI files to mozilla on my Powerbook, it insists on feeding them to the embedded Quicktime, and ignores my attempts to use a separate handler. The Quicktime plugin has only a dumb slider for backspacing, plus start/stop buttons. You can't do anything with the data at all. Again, I asked in a couple of newsgroups, and was told in no uncertain terms that I'm too stupid to know how to do such things, and I should just leave it to my betters.
It's interesting that on my linux box, MP3 and MIDI can be handed off by mozilla to a separate app. This lets me do lots of interesting stuff with those formats. But with mozilla on my Powerbook, the same thing doesn't work.
If "seamless" plugins are eliminated, maybe we can get browsers that are friendly to not-so-dumb users. It would be really useful (especially for XML and MIDI) if we could point to a separate app to handle all files of any specific type.
Actually, I suspect that the ability to do this might be buried in the current browsers. But it doesn't do me much good if I can't learn how to use it. And note that, with mozilla, Preferences -> Navigator -> Helper Applications doesn't allow one to override the builtin handling of some types (such as XML). Some types are handled by builtin plugins, and if they don't do what you need, tough.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
It's almost obvious--- how do you maintain a total monopoly on the web without getting caught?
Have some someone sue the only open aspect of your product.
Who is this really affecting? Quicktime, Real Media, Macromedia, SUN (Java).... all of those things that Microsoft has hated all those years it can now shut-out and remove from IE and tell every Webmaster on Earth to conform to their new standard because of the lawsuit.
Of course Microsoft will have the advantage because Real, SUN etc... will not have the changes made to the browser and will have to start development after the release (this is just speculation... but Microsoft will still have some advantage since they develop the product).
Ultimately this whole lawsuit is furthering Microsoft's grasp on the WWW.
The prior art is the ability to view and launch programs interactively from a remote server (X can export its' display to your machine while running the app in the server. One of the claims mentioned in the patent application is the ability to run a program remotely and communicate with the client machine. X predates the patent by almost a decade).
They are stuck between a rock and a hard place now. It sounds like there is a viable business model out there of "patent something really obvious then sue Microsoft for patent violation". As the biggest fish out there they are clearly the most attractive target, given a sufficently 'strong' case. On the other hand, Microsoft's patent portfolio is its ultimate trump card and which they are presumably saving for the final defence, in the event that open source starts to seriously affect their viability. They can't suddenly start lobbying to remove patent protection without invalidating their own portfolio too.
They brought it upon themselves.
Everyone seems to not be noticing that this action will probably play to microsofts interests. Of course MS would rather not pay 0.5 Billion dollars in penaties but now that they are they can tunr this to their advantage. here's how.
.NET the killer app. MS would love to see plug-ins die, especiall y if they die for other browsers too. What's left to step in its place then? basically two things, .NET and a chaos of non-standard solutions.
.NET is part of our OS and the browser had to be integrated there's no other solutions due the breadth of the EOLAS patent.
.NET and other fee based licesced extensions for MS.
1) it makes
2) MS would love to be able to go to the judge and say, look we had to integrate the broswer into the OS. there was no other way since it lost all its stand-alon functionality.
3) MS can appeal and maybe ret the 0.5 billion penalty reduced. and they can string along the usefulness of IE till 2005 when longhorn emerges. then pfft. MS will say EOLAS was totally right and has a solid case against us and all the other browsers. And here's our payment in full so you can fund your legal effort.
4) Maybe MS will invest another 0.5 billion and buy the IP from EOLAS. its will have been tested in court and they could shutdown all the other browsers that didn't use
we're hosed.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.