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IT Training in the Military?
firehzd1 asks: "Yesterday's article about the new Czar of Security for the Department of Homeland Security raises a very important question, especially lately. What type of opportunities are there for IT work in the military/government. It seems every article I read is bashing the govt/military for terrible IT decisions/systems but I never hear the other side of the story. How bout we hear from those in the field that can give us a idea of what it is like behind the other side of the heavily armed gate?"
Also, you might want to google for "Army Smartforce" for the latest information on computer based training for all soldiers, not just those in IT related jobs.
Most of the people at the top of the IT chain have been in the military for decades. It's not like a regular business where you just hire new people. Everyone comes from within at lower levels and not always because they're the best person for the job.
Get a degree that will actually make you money. An MBA would be a good choice.
Then play with computers in your spare time.
You will have more money, more time to spend on your hobby, and you won't get burned out on technology because of idiotic managers and other riff raff dictating to you.
You will be the idiotic manager. And much happier for being it.
Hell I don't know a thing about the actual state of IT in the DoD, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express lastnight.
From what I've read about system purchasing for the combat arms and aviation the following seems to be important to the DoD when it comes to computing technology.
1. Robustness is important
2. There is growing motivation to buy common systems for all the branches (including Coast Guard) rather than have many specialized systems.
3. Anything you sell the DoD today you have to support for at least 15 years, that includes CPUs like the PowerPC and IA. The new JSF, F-22 and Super Hornet are using Cat-5 and PowerPC chips (in the 132-400 MHz range IIRC) to power the flight computers and to connect systems and buses.
I think the move towards Microsoft isn't so much of a whoring out to MS, as it's a decision based on the fact that MS will be there in 15 years.
I live in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia, which is home to the world's largest Naval Base, along with installations from the other services (Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard). While much of the work is outsourced to contractors, there is a large active-duty staff that helps maintain things. As you would expect, quite a bit of it is your standard Microsoft fare, but there are some intersting Unix installs, too. There are a couple of active-duty folks in our local Unix Users Group. The big project seems to be NMCI, which strives to unify the Navy's computing systems. I have a couple of acquaintances who work there -- but it doesn't seem to work very well.
:-/).
By far, however, the biggest thing you can get while you're in the military is a security clearance, which opens you up to the IT contracting jobs after you get out. It seems like two-thirds of the IT jobs around here require a clearance before you can even be considered (and I don't have one...
What type of opportunities are there for IT work in the military/government.
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The only reason to work IT-type stuff in the government is to get a clearance so you can get a job doing the same thing for more money and less bureaucracy as a contractor. .mil network isn't enough to get some officers in trouble - I've seen it myself.) You'll enjoy the fact that you can coast on by and leave a mess behind when you move on in a year or two. Your reward for leaving things in decent shape would be that the next guy/girl will change everything (to leave a bigger mark in their short time in the position), making your advances null and void.
90% of the good tech-based jobs in the government sector are performed by civilian contractors. The other 10% are generally far, far behind closed doors, and you'd never even know where to look for them unless you're already "in the know."
In the military, at least, the "401k" plan consists of two easy steps: #1 work for us for 20 years. #2 get 50% of your base pay at the 20 year point for life. There is NO middle ground - you leave before 20, you get ZE-freaking-RO. Sure, the promise of a paycheck for life is a nice thought, but the 20 years of bullshit that you'll have to endure is (IMO) hardly worth it.
Again, in the military there is next to no inspiration to perform well. Unless you royally screw the pooch, you WILL get promoted. (Even printing out porn on a
I've been on both sides of this - govvie and contractor. I can honestly say that I've done more valuable work in just a few months than I did in the 10 years spent in the federal employ. Don't do it unless it's your last option, and for certain, don't fall into the "we give you good komputter and teknichul skilz" trap - it's a lie, lie, lie.
I was an electronics tech for the Navy. Did maintenance on comm gear and other electronic equipment. Went through a variety of schools. I feel the education is very good and the hands on experience is great. I worked with a variety of test equipment, receivers, transmitters, communication gear, etc.
When I was in, the most technologically advanced jobs were CTM (Crypto Tech Maintenance), ET (Electronics Tech), DS (Data Systems), among others (more specialized).
One individual I met while in was a Senior Chief ET at Treasure Island. As far as I know, he was one of the people to first develop laser listening devices for civilian purchase, or at least one of the first that I've heard of. I didn't see a working model, but he explained what it was and how it worked to me.
At yet another installation, I met a group of Navy Petty Officers and Air Force Sgt's that were developing a means to render video to CD, at the time, it wasn't common place (I hadn't even heard of the technology at the time) to find video on CD's.
There's many "cutting edge" tech gadgets being used in the .mil, of course these are the ones you never hear about until they're released to civilian use.
It's like the old story about the guy that invented the first "radar gun" for highway patrolmen, he also invented the first "radar detector" for civilians. :-)
Jerry Fletcher,
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If you want IT, go with the Air Force. If any of my nephews decide to join the service, I will strongly counsel them to go in the Air Force instead of the Amry (where I spent 7 years).
I agree. I just finished my third year in the U.S. Chair Force and do not regret it. The pay sucks, but...
Check out the Defense Finance and Accounting Service for pay information. I am a three year E-4, so I make roughly $23,000 per year with food allowance, but I also get 100% free housing and utilities on base. I.e. no rent, no mortgage, no electricity bills, and I do not pay sales tax at the base exchange or liquor store (also no sin tax).
Of course, in return, I have to work. But in my job I probably will never go to a combat zone. The farthest I deploy is Atlanta or Washington, DC, for training.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
The military can't keep people in technical positions because the pay stinks. At least in the Air Force, I think most base networks are now run by contractors. I've been working at the local base for about 7 years now, on what will be five different contracts as of next month. I don't know any military personnel that are still around from two years ago.
From what we see at the base level, it looks like the Air Force has some smart people, at least down to the major command level. They've got lots of great ideas on things like enterprise network consolidation and PKI, but there's a huge disconnect between that level of planning and the implementation level where we're at. We get directives like 'start using Common Access Cards for website authentication', but they can't tell us how to do it. Oh, they sent me a link to someone else's site that describes linking client certificates to domain accounts. No problem, I'll just call up the 1,000 or so users on that website, have them export their certificates, and spend the next month or two entering data!
But back to the original topic. If you're interested in IT in the military, don't bother. Go apply at SAIC or CSC or any of a hundred other contractors.
Bottom line: Military pay stinks. You have no guarantee of any particular job. Hardly anyone stays in one place more than two years, and anyone lucky enough to get training that's worth anything doesn't re-enlist because they can make three times more money on the outside, and still be underpaid.
Of course, this only goes for enlisted folks. Maybe it's different with the officers. I wouldn't count on it, though.
(For what it's worth, I enlisted. It's not a good career move if IT's what you're after, but it's a guaranteed job, and a respectable one. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from joining the service, just don't expect to be doing anything exciting in IT if you do!)
"...the f-22 has been plagued by uptime problems for a while now"
What? Like in flight, Mach-2 rebooting? bah! Back in my day, we had to do barrel-rolls to empty out the carbs! And pop the clutch just to get it off the ground! You youngins have it sooooo easy!
Damn, we didn't even have helmets, just eatin' bowls...on our heads!
I've been in the US Air Force for just over two and a half years. A few weeks ago I finally sewed on my third stripe (for you civilians out there that means I got promoted). The entire time I have been a 3C0X1, Communications-Computer Systems Operations, or Comm-Ops for short. Along with two or three other career feilds we handle the vast bulk of the Air Force's military IT. Honestly, that's almost an oxy moron. Just about every military network out there, regardless of classification, is run by civilians (often trained by Microsoft, certified by Microsoft and knowing only Microsoft in my experience. That causes a heckuva lot of problems in and of itself). As military there's very little else we actually can do with the networks. Why? Well there's two main reasons:
1) Some big wig about a decade ago (you do the math) decided that it would be a good idea to start running the military like a business. So, he decided that instead of focusing on training the troops he would hire contractors and civilians to replace troops on the pretense that it was cheaper and would provide better service. When it was clearly proven and accepted that neither of these were the case they used the excuse that they're "freeing us up" for more combat-oriented positions. Well they sure are spending a lot of money on "freeing us up" and there aren't many contractors out there (in my personal experience) who'll work the same shifts we often do.
2) Let me tell you a little bit about military career training in the USAF. Before I begin, this is not a complaint but a straight portrayl of what it is. First, you go to Basic Military Training (BMT) at Lackland AFB in San Antonio for six weeks or so. That's all well and good and then you're sent to your tech school. For most IT career feilds that happens to be Keesler AFB, MI. There you go through a course that is not only taught by voluntold instructors, but is extremely outdated and poorly presented. It's divided up into various blocks, each block having a certain instructor with a certain set of slides. Many of these slides are extremely dull and feature the same monotonous background over and over and over again. I've been out of Keesler for over two years now and I still have nightmares about the slides with the light blue backgrounds and plain Times New Roman font. Anyway, the material, though not effectively taught, is simple and easy for most to learn. All well and good right? Well, not really. You see at the end of each block you take a test. These tests are written by I beleive a Senior NCO (Sargent for you civilians) who probably made up the CDCs (see below) or what have you as well. This individual received no training on how to write a test. All the tests are multiple guess however, in my experience, they have no actual bearing on the individual's knowledge of the material. Your level of comprehension in no way equates to your score on any of the these tests. This is such a prevelant phenomena that there is a well known saying in the AF explaining our tests: "There's four possible answers. Two of them are wrong. One of them is right. Then there's the AF answer." When I went through Keesler I went through a course that had been used for six years. I was taught 98 and NT. My class was the first class in that courses history to graduate without anyone flunking out of it. I've been told that the course has recently been rewritten but personally I don't hold much faith.
Well, for argument's sake, lets say you make it out of Tech School and arrive at your first duty station. Well you haven't really learned much yet have you? How can you progress further in your career knowledge you ask? Your answer: Career Development Courses, or CDCs for short. These are a series of manuals written by a senior NCO in the career feild who again is usually voluntold for this and receives no training on how to write a manual. Rather than describe the entire horrid process of testing on CDCs I would like to describe for you my personal experience with the 3C0
I enlisted in the Air Force for 4 years. I had a guaranteed job of Computer Operations Technician. People in this career field generally do basic PC repair, networking, help desk, and communications center staffing. Lucky me, I spent most of my time in the comm center "monitoring" computers all hours of the night. It was basically 2.5 years of 12 hour shifts.
I also spent 6 months in computer security. It was interesting, but basically all we did after the schooling was make sure base unclassified systems were "compliant." It was a bogus check and a real waste of time, since we weren't granted access to the systems in question. We basically had to take the owner's word on whether they installed all the patches, etc.
The nice thing is that I spent the down time learning perl, php, mysql, etc., and now I've got a good web development job. But most people there weren't so motivated (and thus, are still in and making $1500/month gross).
I also spent 4 months in England doing network support. It was the most fun I had during those 6 months.
So in short, the training was bad, the job was bad, and virtually nobody in my squadron knew wtf they were talking about. I guess that's why the squadron was decommissioned a few years ago!
I think they outsourced everything to civilian contractors (except the 24 hour comm center, of course!).
Every IT troop has to attend a technical school upon entering the career field and recently the Air Force implemented several certification programs for network professionals.
No, the DoD rarely pays for your certification (troops become marketable and tend to bail early...)
But the most amazing site is when you see a baby troop, full of awe and innovation... ready to spend the next four/six years as a sponge... then you remind him that Comm is a primary target >;^)
Would I recommend following in the footsteps?? Definitely!
Yes, you will have to dodge bullets occasionally (hopefully you will have more than one opportunity...). But your outlook on the 5-nines is much different when you realize that there's a life (or bunch of 'em) behind the number.
Yes, you will go where needed... there are only so many slots for server drivers. It's pretty competitive to get your foot in the door (Dude! You're gettin' the Helpdesk!! heheheheh). The training though is there for everyone in the career field, but the best part is the on-the-job training. No guessing from trumped-up resumes whether a troop can do the job or not, and for the most part, you're weened into the job by a more experienced administrator. Oh... and no fear of loosing your job to a junior Admin (unless of course your just that bad at it). Overall it's a pretty knowledge rich environment.
Would I recommend it for someone who's been in the business for a while?? Well... unless you don't mind carrying a gun and a keyboard, or being ordered to sweep the floor on Friday, or wearing the same colored clothes every work day, or having to shave and keep you hair in regulation, or taking a nice 3, 4 or maybe 12-month vacation in a country not of your choosing. It is the military after all... not your local university.
And no... I'm not a recruiter (heheheheheh)
I must've seen 10 comments regarding how 'no one will talk about it'. Why is that? There are classified things that cannot be discussed, but much about military technology is open source and available in publically distributable trade magazines or on .mil public web sites, if you cared to look at them.
As for working for the military? Well, it's frustrating sometimes because of the circumstances. Let me give you a rough breakdown:
The people in green are great. They are savvy and motivated and want things to happen. Unfortunately, while they drive the train, they aren't the conductors. The lifer civilian employees are. Also they leave every couple years for new assignments. "Generals come and go, but the government employees stay forever!" is the mantra repeated by many. Initiatives often are left by the wayside as a result of this constant personnel reshuffle.
The lifer civilian employees are not so great. They are unmotivated and laxidasical in many cases. Let's say 85% fall into this category. They have poor IT skills and 30 years ago were driving a typewriter, and now are in charge of say, the e-mail system. They're waiting for a pension (60% are within 5 years of retirement, last I heard, DoD-wide) and couldn't care less about becoming more savvy. They are interested in making sure that their little power bases are not eroded, which they guard jealously. Things like access to rooms, decisionmaking authority about minor initiatives that fall in their bailiwick, their own departmental budget, and the ability to buy IT gear without going through any kind of central authority. They will frustrate the crap out of you. A very very few are excellent people. That's the other 15%. These people make the military work by circumventing the atrocious bureaucracy for the contractors (below).
The contractors are spotty. There are some excellent consulting companies, but many are not so good. Skills are lacking in many cases, and people are hired due to nepotism sometimes, which sucks. There are anti-nepotism rules regarding govt hires, but not for contractors. An arm gets twisted, and a contractor hires the spouse/son/daughter of a govt employee to 'facilitate' their contract. Still, the contractors do most of the real work.
Budget issues will plague you. At a bank, you have unlimited funds basically to accomplish whatever goal is required. They will spend the money to do stuff right if you tell them what the right thing to do is. In the military, this is not always the case. The budgeting and disbursement processes are baroque and byzantine, and I feel that is no exaggeration.
It's a lot like tech was back 15 years ago, to me. You have to cobble together systems sometimes out of scrap stuff. Sometimes you are made to do things you know are wrong, like putting Win2k server on an old Pentium Pro box that has seen better days so it can run something like Cold Fusion that is a cpu hog. This irritates me, personally. But you might be happy with some hacking in your daily life.
As for the tech? It's a little behind commercial stuff in the offices, but way ahead of anyone out in the field. Somehow everything gets done, even with the human and funding issues cited above. I think there are *just* enough people with a patriotic spirit toward their job to make everything that needs to happen, happens.
I've worked at some excellent banks and on Wall Street if you wonder about my context above. I hope this is helpful to you.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
The mindset you describe is endemic to the other services. Marines hate doing shit just for the sake of doing shit. We're very much into "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The reason stems both from the culture of the Corps and the fact that we don't have an assload of money to toss around like the other services *cough*Air Force*cough*.
As Fr0mZer0 pointed out, our biggest problem is high turnover in critical MOS's - and computer-related fields are some of the worst.
Another problem we face is worthless systems or infrastructures pushed down on us from the Department of the Navy because the Navy wants some new whiz-bang, e.g. NMCI (don't get me started on that piece of monkey-shit).
I don't think asking people to do something outside of their degrees is a problem for two reasons. First, spreading your wings is what being an officer is all about. Second, you're there to lead - not be the technical expert. If you need technical expertise, that's what your senior enlisted are for and anything beyond them can be contracted out.
I don't know what the ratio of combat support vs combart arms forces are, but rest assured that they are much lower in the Corps, just as the officer vs enlisted ratio is. Besides, in the Marines, we're all riflemen anyways.
(disclaimer - 20 yr USAF retiree. 15 yrs aircraft weapons systems, 5 yrs PC (Windows) programmer. Got out in '97)
First Do NOT join the military to get good training so you can get out and get a good job (whatever the field).
Join the military because you want to.
Having said that, here we go. Try to keep up, kids.
There is LOTS of good training in the military. IT included. A lot of it is old (tech school), but when you get to your actual base, you find yourself working with, and learning from, people who have done (whatever) for years. Been there, done that, got the tshirt.
My last base was Langley AFB, VA. Air Combat Command HQ. And also, the hub of computer ops for ACC. When I was there, I was in the ACC Computer Sys Squadron. A 300 person software shop. Every imaginable job related to s/w development. Configuration management, coding, project management, testing, db design, you name it.
A LOT of very professional people. And just as in any other large organization...some slackers.
However, the Langley Computer Sys Squadron is a CMM Level 3 organization. Not given out lightly. I was on the level 2 & 3 eval teams. We brought in some outside contractors, and a few of us active duty types were tasked as part of the eval team. And we passed. With zero command influence to get a good rating.
Yes, you do get to write code. Or yes, you do get to manage networks. Often, you get the chance to run things sooner than you would on the outside. For instance...a small team is deployed to set up a secure LAN somewhere. You get to be the NCO or junior officer team lead. Deal with it.
Training? I learned far more by myself, than was taught in tech school. But also learned a lot in OJT (on the job training). Each job is different. Some you can learn in class....some by doing. So what if tech school teaches concepts and tools a few years old? Once you get to your real base...you'll quickly be taught the actual tools you'll use. A single point classroom for a huge organization cannot possibly keep up with the quickly changing technologies. And....the miltary tends to keep things a few years old. Because it's proven to work. Cutting edge is for (currently) drone aircraft and the like. Otherwise, use what works.
What's inside the heavily armed gates? Basically, people going to work. Some jobs may be a little weird (loading missiles on F-15's), but all pretty much the same.
Again...let me reiterate point 1. Do not join the military to get good training to get a good job.
Join the military because you want to.
Any questions?
DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY!
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men... --Willy Wonka
This is based on my 6 years of experience as a USAF network guy (3C0X1 - Computer and Communications Systems Operator)
The Pay - Contrary to what other may say, the pay isn't horrible. I'm 24 and a SSgt, been in 6 years, I gross over 50K a year, most of it tax free. There's also the free health care, etc... I have a new car, a nice place to live, and lots in savings. Those who complain about how much they make in the military don't know how to budget (or when to stop having kids).
(10) Don't join the military because you want training and experience. All the good jobs are filled with civilians and you'll spend more time training on fire extinguisher saftey (or homosexual policy) than network operations. The training you do get will be of marginal quality. And of course, you never know if you might end up spending 2-3 years doing something non computer related (ex. driving a forklift). Sure you can never get fired, but you're much better off getting a job in the scary real world. History favours the bold (or something like that).
(12) Civilians. These people fall in to two groups:
Contractors - work for a company that has a contract with the governemnt (SAIC, Lockheed, etc...)
DOD Civilians - work directly for the government.
DOD civilians are good at heart but incompetent. Many of them are retired military and wanted additional income. They have minimal training and work inside of an impossible bureaucracy. It really isn't their fault.
I love Contractors. Most of them are knowledgeable and hard working. As opposed to everyone else in the system, they can actually lose their job. People complain that they are taking away all the good jobs. It's true, but they do them better. What do you expect when they do their job full time for years in a row instead of the military guy who spends half his day shining boots and writing EPR's as well as changing jobs ever 2-3 years. When I call the distant end to troubleshoot a problem, I want to be talking to a contractor, the only people I've met so far who know what a 3 way TCP handshake is (god bless them). If you absolutely must work for DOD, do it as a contractor.
(1) As noted above, your first tech training will take place at Keesler AFB. Most of the information is outdated and the teachers lack any real world experience, simply repeating what they have read. For instance, when I went though in 1997 my network training was in Windows for Workgroups and Novell. I was running windows 95 at home already and haven't seen a DOD IPX network since leaving Keesler. Hardware training was on 386's running DOS something or other. I was running a cheap Pentium at home. In the end tech school was a waste for people with any prior experience but usefull for those still learning about HD's, IDE Cables, and Motherboards.
(2) After leaving tech school and arriving at your first base, you will start your CDC's (Career Development Course). OUtdated and overgereal are the key words. In 98 they told me that DOS was the most popular OS, thicknet was A-OK, and the motherboard is the green thing at the bottom of the case. They are also riddled with errors.
(3) During your first year or so at your new base you won't get much real experience. There is alot of meaningless work to do and not much good stuff. Those who have been there the longest will be doing the good stuff, you (as a new recruit) will be mowing lawns, sweeping floors, and picking up trash from the side of the road.
(4) If you are fotunate, you might get sent to some sort of in-house training. Usually this is where they sent one guy to a class and when he got back told him that he was going to be teaching it to other people. Who the teacher is depends as much on rank and name as it does knowledge. These classes are generally ok. The information is mostly current and you spend the whole day learning ithout distractions. You'll probably get a good foundation of IP addressing and Windows networks here but also some bad inf
I joined the Army in 1988. At that time, I had already worked 2 years in IT for a consultant building PCs and servers and installing LANs. I had also taught myself Turbo Pascal and worked with 6 other people to write a BBS for the PC. So I joined the Army thinking I would get some great communications training working with satelites and computers.
Well, here is what happened. I left on Feb 1st. Basic Training was, well, physically hard but I made it through. Next, I go to AIT (Advanced Individual Training) at Fort Gordon, Ga. By week 3 of training, they had me take a test and quickly bumped me up to the last 4 weeks of training because I was correcting some of the instructors (and turned out to be right).
Having gotten done with AIT in 7 weeks instead of 6 months, I got to go to Airborne School and earn my jumpwings. So, there it was, Labor Day and I was showing up at Fort Bragg, NC assigned to the 82nd Airborne. They found out what I could do with computers and immediately sent me to headquarters. I ended up a database programmer for a year. I sat at a desk writing code for $15k a year while I had to work with (and often provide instruction to) government employees earning three or even five times as much.
Finally, in 1990, I got sent down to the 313th MI Bn and got to actually do stuff in the field that involved computers, radios, etc. with the intelligence guys and gals. Desert Storm was a hoot and I felt like I made a difference.
But when it came time to re-enlist, I realized that I had learned NOTHING in the Army that I had not: (1) brought in with me and (2) improved on my own by self-learning.
I left the military, got a civilian job and was soon making 4 times as much money and I never had to salute anyone. =)
If you know absolutely nothing about IT, you will learn something in the Army. You will also leave the military with some experience on your resume and possibly a security clearance (very valuable right now).
But since you are already reading Slashdot, there is probably nothing in terms of IT skills or money to be gained in the military (though I enjoy knowing that I can kill out to 200+ meters with almost any decent rifle with a good caliber).
That having been said, I still am proud that I helped pay for the price of Freedom in America (even if John Ashcroft is taking it away) and that I served something bigger than myself in my formative years. So while I learned very little in terms of IT, the experience I gained in life has been priceless.