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China Joins EU in Galileo Satellite Venture
CHaN_316 writes "Yahoo has posted a story that says China to Participate in Galileo Satellite Program. 'The agreement provides for cooperation in satellite navigation, technology, industrial manufacturing, market development, frequency and certification'. This is definitely a good boost to the satellite program since it injects fresh cash into the project. There are probably strategic reasons for joining this network since it's an alternative to the American controlled GPS system. Here's more information about Galileo." China is also moving quickly toward getting a man in space.
Galileo is to plumet into Jupiters atmosphere on Sunday!
Story also on BBC NEWS- China will cough up 259 mega-dollars towards the costs. The Pentagon are not too happy about it, but it does give the EU a way to do important things like landing planes, without worrying that someone else could throw the switch.
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
Any time I've seen Galileo mentioned in the US media, it's been treated as some sort of anti-US measure; it isn't.
Well, it isn't totally an anti-US measure. We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military. Doesn't really matter who that military is; any system where you can find yourself suddenly lost at the whim of some general half a world away is a system to be avoided. And as the Iraq war is showing, the US is increasingly cagey (cagy? How do you spell that damn word?) about others using its system in time of war. And that time of war looks like it's going to extend indefinitely.
<anti-US bit>
Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".
I'd love to see one big happy world, but in its absence I'm reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America.
</anti-US>
let the flames begin...
Reuters reports that a huge queue of Chinese wannabe astronauts are forming following rumours that in outer space, nobody can watch you surf.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
...when you're cooperating with the enemy.
I mean, China's interests are not the world's interests. History folks: read it.
I don't know how to say this withought sounding paranoid, but just because you have a science co-op doesn't mean everyone is interested in the same thing. China is more than gung ho about this project because EVERY space launch technology is dual-use for military application. I think it is a little cavalier (that's "dangerous" for you folks in high school) to do anything that puts more power in the hands of anti-freedom communists. Look at what they are doing to democratic Taiwan if you want to see what they would do to Europe or the U.S.A. if they had the ability.
You're talking about a nation that has a reverse-firewall on the entire CONTINENT... to keep people from being "infected" by rogue ideas like ownership, equality, and government existing through the sanction of the governed. You're talking about a nation that controls the news media with an iron fist to keep people from knowing when bad things happen as a result of communism. China is the closest thing to 1984 on the planet right now. Do we really want to share technology with them?
From http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MarApr01/a dams.asp
GPS Signals Jammed During Tank Trials
Lieutenant Colonel Lester W. Grau, US Army, Retired
Based on 6 August 2000 reports in The Sunday Times of London, Agence France-Presse and the 25 September 2000 Elevtheros Tipos, Athens
The highly accurate Global Positioning System (GPS) supports modern ground forces as they move and shoot. Maps and compasses stay in cases as digitized forces quickly use GPS to determine their location and the enemy's. Although map-reading skills atrophy, few worry that GPS may suddenly provide erroneous information or cease working. Still, US Army equipment has already faced attacks on GPS functions--by allies.
In August 2000 the Greek government sponsored a tank competition at Litokhoro to determine the Greek army's next tank--a deal worth $1.4 billion for 250 tanks. Competitors included the British Challenger 2E, the US M1A1 Abrams, the German Leopard 2A5 and the French Leclerc. During the trials, the British and US tanks had navigation problems despite using multiple GPS satellites to determine their positions precisely. After the embarrassing performance, officials discovered that the GPS satellites were being jammed--by a French security agency. Less than a foot high, the jammers transmitted stronger signals than satellites on the same frequency. The jammers were reportedly hidden on the firing range and remotely activated as US and British tanks were tested.
Greek defense officials found the jamming episode rather amusing and discounted the associated technical problems. The threat remains: if an ally can create such havoc during a test, what effect could hostile GPS jamming have during combat?
Like Carter trusted the USSR? Right before they went into Afghanistan?
Just like France trusted Germany? Just before Germany walked into France? (WWII)
Just like the USSR trusted Germany? Just before they walked into Poland? (WWII)
Shall I go on?
Ignorance is thinking everyone should get along. More ignorance is spouted by saying dumb shit like "other nations [rightly so] distrust the U.S.".
You obviously have not learned from history... as you seem doomed to repeat it.
Remember, the U.S. will allow the Chinese to "join" with us in our space ventures when they stop oppressing their own people for both political and religion reasons... and stop oppressing the free, democratic people of Taiwan by letting them have their own seat at the U.N.
FYI, Chinese has an "l" sound.
The most difficult sound for Mandarin Chinese speakers to pronounce is "th", as in the word "the". It tends to come out more like "z".
We didn't say space camera, we said space gamera !
Good question. Fear and paranoia drove the US to the greatest technical achievement of the millenium with the moon landings. Since then it has been all hugs and kisses with the Russians in the space station and no progress! I'll take the competition, and progress.
an ill wind that blows no good
Well, the USA is paying most of the costs for the damn thing, so why shouldn't we get the most control?
Other nations do distrust the US for a variety of reasons, some valid others less so - this is not to say all nations on all subjects, but it's silly to assume that there is no area where the US has never upse anyone.
U.S. citizens should realize that saying the US has a right to do whatever it wants is not compatible with saying other nations have no right to distrust the US - or to do things in their self-interest.
You may allow the Chinese to "join" you if you wish, just don't expect them not to develop their own space program.
As it happens I distrust the Chinese Government and am generally sympathetic to the US - but not blndly so and US actions over the last 5 or so years have made it harder. I am glad that Chane and the EU are collaborating on this - it tends to be less likely that there is serious conflict between real trading partners, and it will give an alternative to GPS, which is under foreign control. If the exisitng system was Gallileo would the US be happy to have this as a hostage to fortune or want their own version?
I agree about Taiwan.
As I recall, France's nuclear deterrence was only sized to "rip a limb off" of an opponent, not destroy an entire country. The ChiComs probably don't have more than two dozen nukes that could reach us.
God forbid anyone ever escalates that far, but it is likely that a nuclear attack on America by anyone other than Russia would not reduce us to an "insignficant pile of radioactive dust". Considering the large area of the country, it might not even reduce us into the bottom quintile of national GNPs. It would, almost certainly, however result in the entirety of the attacking nations (and possibly some other uninvolved countries) sustaining what SAC would have assessed as light to medium damage.
China is getting involved in the Galileo project? What lucky timing: On Sunday, September 21, NASA's Galileo spacecraft will end 14 years of exploration in spectacular fashion: by crashing into Jupiter.
Can we get them to have the check sent by overnight mail, or would a wire transfer be easier at this late stage?
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
You are a liar. It was Nixon, a Republican, who began trading with China. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush have all renewed China's MFN status.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
This is such a laughable assertion that I could write a book discrediting it. American has spent 100 years threatening and enacting diplomatic economic and military warfare against those who threaten its private interests. It is not unique in that of course, we British did the same for the past 200 years when our empire was the pre-eminent one. The US is now the pre-eminent empire and it bullies those countries who offer a challenge to its authority. Such attacks are of course justified as necessary to defend 'freedom, democracy and international order', as it defines it.
Non-one is fooled for a moment - well, ok, you are apparently.
However, two brief and far from unique examples suffice to prove you wrong:
1.the Bush 'Hague Invasion Act'. If a US soldier commits a war crime and the Hague International Criminal Court convict and imprisons him the US will attack the Hague. The Hague for your information is a part of Europe (old Europe of course).
2. After the Second World War (c. 1946) the US threatened Italians that if they voted into power the communists they would attack them with the residue of their WW2 forces in the rest of Europe in order to overthrow them. Naturally this was to 'defend freedom'; poor simple Italian peasants didnt know what was best for them so you threatened to invade to persuade them to do the 'right' thing; which just coincidentally matches your global plans for freedom.
Italy is also a part of Europe (old Europe).
the US has threatened Europe at many different levels, including militarily, in the past. Since we pose an actual threat to US power and influence it is not hard to imagine that in the future more threats will arise.
If Europe ever threatens US global corporate interests it will be bullied and threatened with attack - this is the demonstrable pattern of US imperialism. Only if we are not dependant on American military technology can we ever have the option to do defend ourselves against it if the need arises. Only a fool would deny himself even the option of self defence against a tyrant - even if the tyrant is one who currently pats you on the head and says 'good boy, good faithful boy'.
Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated let me put it in terms you might understand: would you like to rely for your national defence on Gallileo?
The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries have some form of democratically elected government and a homegrown form of capitalism.
Jeeeeesus, where to start with this one? (do you work or Bush?)
Understand that I dont blame you for your public display of self-delusion. You are a dupe. All that saluting the flag crap you people do at school has indoctrinated you into the belief you are part of a good nation. But ask around the World. Ask the people of S.America who have spent decades of being murdered tortured raped and otherwise subject to US sponsored US organised terrorism by Fascist governments and their Green Beret trained special forces who are taught to electrocute burn and beat. All financed by the CIA in order to protect US banana/oil/rubber/whatever companies.
of course you'll need to browse at -1 Troll to see this since all the yanks mods will regard this comment as clearly unhelpful to freedom.
And if I ever fly to the US I will be detained at guantanamo bay as a "terrorist sympathiser". Another legitimate act of self defence by Bush.
-he who laughs last, is a bit slow.
journal
I posted a long time ago (before the Iraq war brought it to a point) that I think that the EU and the US are diverging and drifting further and further from one another. I've read enough political discussion forums to note that the level of animosity between the rest of the world and the US is definitely high, and rising.
I know that every time when a slashdot article is posted on some European, Chinese or Indian project of technical prowess, that quite a number of highly racist, xenophobic posts will be made, a number of people will pound their fists on the table as to why the USA system is superior and that the US military could take 'em all on and win.
And make no mistake, the US military could definitely beat any other military on earth in a conventional war. There are no nations with the American ability to project force all around the globe. The US economy is the key to the world's economy as is evidenced that other economies reel when the US economy takes a hit, and the US certainly does its best to strong arm other nations into accepting US economic terms, and is often successful.
But if there is one big mistake that the USA makes, it is in thinking that the rest of the world is incapable of learning from past failures. The EU wouldn't be there if Europe were incapable of learning from its own past failures. It's inefficient and clumsy but it is the best way for Europe to avoid going to war with itself again, and for European nations to get stronger economically.
Likewise, many countries are very wary of an America that acts alone and starts large unilateral wars for very dodgy reasons. Many countries are beginning to see that the USA is willing to use combiinations of military force and economic power to achieve its goals. These are the reaons that the EU has finally started to act on the idea of a European defense force. These are the reasons that the Euro is becoming popular tender in international commerce. These are the reasons that the Gallileo system is being built to avoid the loss of the GPS system in times of crisis.These are the reasons that China is slowly but surely edging into space, modernising its army and plowing money into indigenous IT.
All these things are happening because all those countries are worried about being dominated by the US in times of crisis.
And all this talk about nuking them (all those horrid countries who would dare to oppose the US) is plain rubbish. The US could certainly "win" a nuclear war, in that it has more missiles than anyone else, but at least some missiles from any opponent would hit the USA, and I don't know about you, but living in a world after a major nuclear war is not something I like to think about.