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China Joins EU in Galileo Satellite Venture
CHaN_316 writes "Yahoo has posted a story that says China to Participate in Galileo Satellite Program. 'The agreement provides for cooperation in satellite navigation, technology, industrial manufacturing, market development, frequency and certification'. This is definitely a good boost to the satellite program since it injects fresh cash into the project. There are probably strategic reasons for joining this network since it's an alternative to the American controlled GPS system. Here's more information about Galileo." China is also moving quickly toward getting a man in space.
China says it has high hopes for its Garireo joint-venture.
You only THINK it is. In reallity the Galileo project is an advanced Anti-anti sat project aimed at you antsat weapons. :)
We win
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Galileo is to plumet into Jupiters atmosphere on Sunday!
Story also on BBC NEWS- China will cough up 259 mega-dollars towards the costs. The Pentagon are not too happy about it, but it does give the EU a way to do important things like landing planes, without worrying that someone else could throw the switch.
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
Why must nations always get involved and turn space exploration into an Us vs. Them contest?
I wish we could all just work together, share ideas (much in the same manner that Linux engineers share programming code), and unite to accomplish one common goal, such as a manned mission to Mars.
This would lower taxes, make a Mars mission occur much sooner, and encourage a gentle more loving dialogue between the mainstream nations and rogue nations.
We owe it to science to drop our national flags in the name of progress. Please reply with, a) the country you currently reside in and b) whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission and c) (optional) if possible, state your country's current economic spending on space missions.
Thank you! This should make for interesting data.
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
i like reading news where china is collaborating with the west, rather than taking pains to block it out (eg great firewall of china)
:)
granted, this is a pretty high level program but the idea of it is good.
or maybe china is gearing up for a space coup to take over the world and we're all doomed. i'll need to think about the significance of this one
I can't make up my mind. On one hand, it's just stupid for humanity as a race to have two competing satellite based positioning systems, when one can be shared and the resources used for the other could be used for, say, more research or a new launch system.
Oh the other hand, it's this competition that usually drives progress. So far, the one for all and all for one model (soviets) seems to have failed while the super-capitalistic model (america) seems to be winning, but looking back 1000 years from now, is this the model that will perpetuate our presence in the universe?
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
Any time I've seen Galileo mentioned in the US media, it's been treated as some sort of anti-US measure; it isn't.
Well, it isn't totally an anti-US measure. We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military. Doesn't really matter who that military is; any system where you can find yourself suddenly lost at the whim of some general half a world away is a system to be avoided. And as the Iraq war is showing, the US is increasingly cagey (cagy? How do you spell that damn word?) about others using its system in time of war. And that time of war looks like it's going to extend indefinitely.
<anti-US bit>
Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".
I'd love to see one big happy world, but in its absence I'm reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America.
</anti-US>
let the flames begin...
Remember that the 60's "SPACE RACE" (it was called that for a reason) was sparked by US-Soviet competition.
Also observe that innovation in space exploration has been pretty much nil since, say, Apollo-Soyuz.
That they'll be able to use this in Wartime? If the US Govt is willing to alter GPS to their whims, whats to stop the air force from lofting a few ASAT missiles to accomplish the same goal? Taking away the enemies ability to navigate would be priceless.
Reuters reports that a huge queue of Chinese wannabe astronauts are forming following rumours that in outer space, nobody can watch you surf.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Sounds like what experts said 45 years ago when they were rubbishing the idea that the USSR could put anything into space.
Sounds like what I understand all the generals were saying when Mig15s started shooting down our planes in Korea!
Just because you & I have a low opinion about the social order of a society, it doesn't mean that there are not a number of well funded clever people there...
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
...when you're cooperating with the enemy.
I mean, China's interests are not the world's interests. History folks: read it.
I don't know how to say this withought sounding paranoid, but just because you have a science co-op doesn't mean everyone is interested in the same thing. China is more than gung ho about this project because EVERY space launch technology is dual-use for military application. I think it is a little cavalier (that's "dangerous" for you folks in high school) to do anything that puts more power in the hands of anti-freedom communists. Look at what they are doing to democratic Taiwan if you want to see what they would do to Europe or the U.S.A. if they had the ability.
You're talking about a nation that has a reverse-firewall on the entire CONTINENT... to keep people from being "infected" by rogue ideas like ownership, equality, and government existing through the sanction of the governed. You're talking about a nation that controls the news media with an iron fist to keep people from knowing when bad things happen as a result of communism. China is the closest thing to 1984 on the planet right now. Do we really want to share technology with them?
IT sure beats a massive metallic American satellite droping into your backyard.
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From http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MarApr01/a dams.asp
GPS Signals Jammed During Tank Trials
Lieutenant Colonel Lester W. Grau, US Army, Retired
Based on 6 August 2000 reports in The Sunday Times of London, Agence France-Presse and the 25 September 2000 Elevtheros Tipos, Athens
The highly accurate Global Positioning System (GPS) supports modern ground forces as they move and shoot. Maps and compasses stay in cases as digitized forces quickly use GPS to determine their location and the enemy's. Although map-reading skills atrophy, few worry that GPS may suddenly provide erroneous information or cease working. Still, US Army equipment has already faced attacks on GPS functions--by allies.
In August 2000 the Greek government sponsored a tank competition at Litokhoro to determine the Greek army's next tank--a deal worth $1.4 billion for 250 tanks. Competitors included the British Challenger 2E, the US M1A1 Abrams, the German Leopard 2A5 and the French Leclerc. During the trials, the British and US tanks had navigation problems despite using multiple GPS satellites to determine their positions precisely. After the embarrassing performance, officials discovered that the GPS satellites were being jammed--by a French security agency. Less than a foot high, the jammers transmitted stronger signals than satellites on the same frequency. The jammers were reportedly hidden on the firing range and remotely activated as US and British tanks were tested.
Greek defense officials found the jamming episode rather amusing and discounted the associated technical problems. The threat remains: if an ally can create such havoc during a test, what effect could hostile GPS jamming have during combat?
I have worked on the Galileo project on a technical level and it really does need some new impetus, and some new capital injection, ESA is being quite slow at coming up with the funding at the correct time (even though its been signed off at a political level). It truely is a project of massive scale, and involves alot of interfacing between European space companies.
Another benefit of this is there isn't as big a rush to launch the first testbed satellite that was going to block/reserve the frequency blocks that Galileo is going to use for fear the Chinese will get their first.
I wonder how the US views this move, considering they are already unhappy with the Galileo implications in the first place. Especially with Chinas ICBM ambitions.
How is this an arms race started by the Europeans? Didn't the US have GPS up first?
;)
Becuase it's not a race if only one person is in it
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Do you think the new system will not be similarly at the mercy of some general's fiat? Only that the general will perhaps be Chinese (regardless of how tasty his chicken may be)?
The question is, who would you rather be at the mercy of? The US or China? Think hard.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
And if the countries we 'rain cruise missles down on' would stop supporting people who think it is ok to kill bus loads of women/kids then, perhaps, we would not bomb them.
But it's not an arms race until you start treating it as military technology. Galileo is mostly geared for civilian use. If the US starts comming up with technology to jam it, then it's the US which is turning it into an arms race.
And if the countries that like to 'rain cruise missiles down on' other countries ceased doing that, maybe those who think it is ok to 'kill bus loads of women/kids' of the bomb-throwing country would stop thinking that way.
I agree with you in that nobody should wait around for the U.S. to stamp their approval on their lives. By all means proceed with the persuit of excellence.
/in any way/ you have to understand why American's react as they do. Communism strips people of their dignity and freedom and erodes any concept of human rights. It is fundamentally war-oriented and diametrically opposed to the existance of opposing schools of thought: I.E. democracy. It isn't a "big happy world," either so spare us the hubris. There are a lot of people who's lives are literally broken by bloody tyrants in places like Communist China, Africa, and the middle-east. People said of those in Iraq, "They're not good enough for democracy, they're not advanced enough." That's racism, folks... every human spirit years to be free. It is very important to note that no governmental decision should be made in a vacuum outside the framework of interest and information in the rest of the world. China doesn't need any help producing long-range ballistic missile technology... which is just a whisker away from any aerospace research that might be shared to them.
... the "goodness of America" is much greater, FAR out of proportion to any of its mistakes.
When people do anything to support communism
I am a little shocked by your statement: "reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America."
Take the united states out of the world, and imagine the reprocussions. Look at all the R&D contributions we have made to the global quality of life over the last 100 years. Look who spilled their blood to spare everyone from Japanese and German occupation. Who is sending and supplying soldiers to guard the wall between terrorists and free people everywhere? Who just spend $10,000,000,000 on HIV/AIDS in Africa? Not the EU.
People get overobsessed with "the sins of America," even if they don't know any of them, but let me tell you
As it is now EU is not capable to begin any serious wars. Not from military capability prospective - such decision would be politically impossible in EU. China is also not that stupid to through nuclear warheads here and there - they realize that that would be the end for all of us.
The problem is that US administration is driven by corporations, currently by those who is benefiting from any military race. And there is no way to stop them.
Less is more !
The only reason Taiwan doesn't have a seat on the UN is because they claim to be the "true" government of the Chinese people. As a government in exile, they get nothing. If they declared themselves a sovereign nation separate from China, they would have their seat in a day. (Barring, of course, invasion from the PRC, which is entirely possible)
If those countries and "innocents" stopped supporting people who send Airliners into OUR skyscrapers, maybe we would stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm the parent post feels like a carfty toll to me, but oh well, it's been modded as interesting...
Software engineers should know better than anybody that redundancy, competition, is good. Aren't the open source some of the most vocal when it comes to Microsoft's monopoly?
Right now, the US has a monopoly on GPS. Good for USA, bad for the rest of the world. Having a second GPS system not only creates competition, but prevents possible disasters if the American GPS is disabled, say with a virus.
Same goes with missions to Mars, Space Stations, reusable spacecrafts, etc. You're right that we should share data, but we should also work in parallel to devise systems and missions that are different enough that a single flaw doesn't turn the entire program into a standstill.
Unfortunately, right now, space-related projects are so big they can only be sponsored by nations (or groups of nations), and that's why flags are in them.
And I find it interesting that you advocate dropping flags, yet you say "whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission" [emphasis mine]. Shouldn't you be saying something like "whether you think people from all over the world would work in a joint space mission?"
The Russians, IIRC, were working on a GPS alternative as well, called GLONASS. What's the status of that.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Why would the US develop jamming technology for it? We've done enough to piss off the rest of the world, and somehow still have a few friends. We'd lose GB, Spain, and Germany on that one.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
I don't think they should.
But his thread started partially in response to someone who claimed that the US would have to develop such jamming technologies and that such a move would be a response to an arms race which the EU and/or China started.
I was arguing against this.
Oh yeah, that's right. I wish I could say I've slept since then... instead I'll say I've written code since then. And I'm low on caffeine.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
I think you are simplifying the issues a bit too much. Sometime the US and the EU have different views on how to do things, even if the overall goal might be the same. Of course the EU will argue for its ideas. That's quite natural and isn't intended to undermine US efforts.
In the case of the Iraq war the US went ahead with the war regardless of the opinion of the UN, EU (except UK), Russia, China etc. In that case I think it's actually the US that is undermining the relation, not everyone else..
Over to Gallileo. It's not a anti-US move, it's a pro-Europe move. Europe, as the rest of the world, is increasingly dependant on accurate navigation for many critical civil applications. Since there are no guarantes for GPS availability an alternative is needed. The second reason is economical or political: ensure that the European companies remain competitive within the satellite business.
I don't think Gallileo is a threat to US security. Most countries don't have cruise missiles or similar weapons that require satellite guidance -- I'm quite sure Iraq isn't an exception. Besides, if your main objective is to hit a base or a city you don't need that kind of precision; traditional guidance systems will do just fine in that case.
Since when? I think this whole article was only posted about an hour ago.
It sounds like you're suffering from CSS (Coding Stress Syndrome). That's when you've spent so much time coding instead of sleeping that you start talking to your friends and wondering why they won't compile.
A repeat of an earlier post (sorry about the dupe, but this article may be of interest.
I didn't want to politicize the discussion beyond the fact that it is politically significant when people deal technology to China.
Your comment doesn't make sense. I have to imagine that is why you posted anonymously. You forget the Marshall plan where we spent (in today's dollars) hundreds of billions of dollars rebuilding Europe. That's right, the U.S.A. spent ALL that money over there helping to get things straight after WW2.
Everything worth doing takes time and everything that is valuable is worth fighting for. Even more importantly, it is worth LIVING for. I would die for freedom. For my own freedom, and for yours.
China is getting involved in the Galileo project? What lucky timing: On Sunday, September 21, NASA's Galileo spacecraft will end 14 years of exploration in spectacular fashion: by crashing into Jupiter.
Can we get them to have the check sent by overnight mail, or would a wire transfer be easier at this late stage?
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Er.. We already lost Germany. I think Fiji still likes us though.
an ill wind that blows no good
You cannot control a man's money withought controlling every other aspect of his life. Communism is blatantly political. It ceases to be an economic phenomenon when it diverges from being subordinate to "the market" and starts trying to dictate to the market what the market will be.
/are/ elevated above the fray and supported to excess and others are ignored. At the /very least/ in Capitalism it is YOUR choice where you want to fit in and settle. But it is better because in Capitalism the economy never stops growing. Communism takes reality and reduces it to a zero-sum game where instead of reaching into the ground and working to pull out something of BRAND NEW value to the world (economic growth), people are forced to redistribute a common set of wealth. No wonder things fall into decay in those places. It is not sustainable.
The market is the free will of everyone to choose to value one thing over another. It is a fact that all value is personal. This does not mean all "moral value" is unique to the individual, it means all economic (the demand for and method of acquisition of scarce resources) worth is determined by the wants of each individual person independant of others. This fact of existence is diametrically opposed to the premise of Communism.
Communism is political in the enforcement of its irrational ideals, because people do not naturally fall into communist practices - they instinctively resist them. It is not greed that resists Communism: it is good productive self-interest and enlightened self-interest working itself out. Enlightened self-interest is voluntarily helping others because it makes you happy and your personal life ultimately better. Giving a gift to your girlfriend, buying food for a widow, sending AIDS money to Africa, etc. People love giving gifts but they hate getting robbed even if the theif has noble plans for the money. Why should the thief take credit for the charity?
It is a NiceThought(tm) for everyone to have what they need but it always comes down to this: Who will guarantee your life? If someone else is shouldered with the responsibility of guaranteeing your life, their ass is hanging out in the wind. Someone always gets left out in Communism because a few people
Europe needs Galileo because it depends too much on GPS which is owned by US Army. It means that US has complete control on all the Europeans positionning devices (including those of the Army).
We need more and more of this devices, for civilian purposes mainly. So Europe needs to be independant and thus, needs Galileo.
It's not an act of war or anything like this. Europe needs that for commercial and to have it's own reliable positionning system.
Iraq: war to save the U
You yourself say that any alternative to GPS is a major threat to the US. If that is the case, then NOT having an alternative to GPS is a major threat for everyone else.
Face it, most of the world is worried about lunatics like Bush being in charge of a war machine that is yearly being funded as much as the next 25 countries, especially given the long range of wars, invasions and coups the US has started, staged or supported over the last few decades - including several actions in clear violation of international law (at least one of which the US was convicted of - mining harbours that had civilian traffic in Nicaragua), and several that involved the overthrow of democratically elected governments (Chile and Indonesia to name two).
If people worldwide are being threatened, I for one support any measure that will make it easier for people to defend themselves against US aggression.
I like that.. CSS. Can I use that without getting dragged into court?
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
This is such a laughable assertion that I could write a book discrediting it. American has spent 100 years threatening and enacting diplomatic economic and military warfare against those who threaten its private interests. It is not unique in that of course, we British did the same for the past 200 years when our empire was the pre-eminent one. The US is now the pre-eminent empire and it bullies those countries who offer a challenge to its authority. Such attacks are of course justified as necessary to defend 'freedom, democracy and international order', as it defines it.
Non-one is fooled for a moment - well, ok, you are apparently.
However, two brief and far from unique examples suffice to prove you wrong:
1.the Bush 'Hague Invasion Act'. If a US soldier commits a war crime and the Hague International Criminal Court convict and imprisons him the US will attack the Hague. The Hague for your information is a part of Europe (old Europe of course).
2. After the Second World War (c. 1946) the US threatened Italians that if they voted into power the communists they would attack them with the residue of their WW2 forces in the rest of Europe in order to overthrow them. Naturally this was to 'defend freedom'; poor simple Italian peasants didnt know what was best for them so you threatened to invade to persuade them to do the 'right' thing; which just coincidentally matches your global plans for freedom.
Italy is also a part of Europe (old Europe).
the US has threatened Europe at many different levels, including militarily, in the past. Since we pose an actual threat to US power and influence it is not hard to imagine that in the future more threats will arise.
If Europe ever threatens US global corporate interests it will be bullied and threatened with attack - this is the demonstrable pattern of US imperialism. Only if we are not dependant on American military technology can we ever have the option to do defend ourselves against it if the need arises. Only a fool would deny himself even the option of self defence against a tyrant - even if the tyrant is one who currently pats you on the head and says 'good boy, good faithful boy'.
Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated let me put it in terms you might understand: would you like to rely for your national defence on Gallileo?
The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries have some form of democratically elected government and a homegrown form of capitalism.
Jeeeeesus, where to start with this one? (do you work or Bush?)
Understand that I dont blame you for your public display of self-delusion. You are a dupe. All that saluting the flag crap you people do at school has indoctrinated you into the belief you are part of a good nation. But ask around the World. Ask the people of S.America who have spent decades of being murdered tortured raped and otherwise subject to US sponsored US organised terrorism by Fascist governments and their Green Beret trained special forces who are taught to electrocute burn and beat. All financed by the CIA in order to protect US banana/oil/rubber/whatever companies.
of course you'll need to browse at -1 Troll to see this since all the yanks mods will regard this comment as clearly unhelpful to freedom.
And if I ever fly to the US I will be detained at guantanamo bay as a "terrorist sympathiser". Another legitimate act of self defence by Bush.
-he who laughs last, is a bit slow.
journal
I don't think I'm over simplifying anything. Of course there are going to be differences in opinions. What's going on now in the world goes well beyond that, however.
Take for example the Kyoto Treaty. There was no way the US was EVER going to sign up for it. It wasn't in the US's best interest to what sign something that would in effect cripple the US economy. Not that the US rejected the principal goal of Kyoto, as it suggested alternatives. But Kyoto is always cited as "yet another example of American arrogance and greed, and the Bush administration in general". The fact that the Senate voted 98-0 against it, or that even during the Clinton administration an earlier vote was exactly the same is completely ignored.
Missile defense is another example. Europe said "North Korea, Iran... Ha you face no threat, you are just going to start another arms race" but look at that statement today! China, who isn't even supposed to be the target of such a system, has made statements to the effect of "the US cares more about LA then it does Taiwan". Again this is another cry of the anti-US crowd.
Iraq... That's a difference of goals, not the tactics of how to get there. Europe didn't want to do anything. (And that's what "inspections" were.. a way to sell the idea of doing nothing.) The US on the other hand sold the idea of WMD's. Really its goal was a paradigm shift in the Middle East. That hasn't happened yet, nor will it for quite awhile, but we'll see who's right 20 years from now. As to the political fallout of Iraq, I don't see that much of a change in Europe. It was pretty anti-American before Iraq. Iraq just brought that out. In the US, totally different story. The US wasn't anti anything European, in fact most of us feel a historic attachment to it. After Iraq though, a good portion of Americans are VERY anti French, German, etc...
Iraq most definitely DID have cruise missiles (They used them during the war!). So does every other semi-modern military in the world. If not they can buy them easily from North Korea. Hell... you don't even need a cruise missile to take advantage of GPS like system in warfare. Modify a plane, report troop locations etc... A couple months ago there was even a story posted right here on Slashdot about a guy who's trying to build his own GPS guided cruise missile for under $5000. During the war with Iraq the Iraqi's were almost able to hit the US's command center without GPS guidance. They only over flew it by a couple miles. Imagine if they had GPS! So to think a European GPS system that the US can't "turn off" is not a treat is very very naive.
Yes. I think you should go puke.
You seem to have eaten something nasty which is making you a bit incoherent. Something about elves, empires, and leftists. But I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
Feel free.
As far as I know, parody is still a legitimate exception to copyright law.
Germany still mostly likes the US. They currently have the largest non US military contingent in Afghanistan.
And they're still letting the US keep their bases in Germany.
Is also attacking a nation-state like Iraq before they get thier shit togeather enough to bother a Kuwait or an Israel again.
Prevention didn't fly for the Bush Administration as an excuse for the war in many circles.
The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries have some form of democratically elected government and a homegrown form of capitalism. How is that not in everyone's benefit? Ever hear of comparative advantage? That's what's made the US the economic power that it is.
Really? I thought the slave trade and foreign sanctions made the US the economic power that it is? And its democracy is going down the drain,comparative advantage is what the US has at the expense of everyone else.
Any alternative to GPS is a major threat to the US.
Well having created GPS itself, (not to mention star wars and a hole host of other things) the US certainly knows about major threats.
As you know, when you band together with others (i.e your united states) it can be very beneficial, Europe just wants to do the same.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Galileo is probably going to turn into a club against the will of the US. This is gonna be funny - i just cant wait to see blairs face when he has to choose sides ;)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Probably true, but it does not matter.
As another Slashdot poster pointed out, the Galileo system can be destroyed or decapacitated at will by the US military. Since the US military is not an 'aggressive, imperial power', they will stop the 'aggressive, imperial power', China, I suppose, from doing anything evil.
In any case, I do not see what is the big deal about things like Galileo or some third world country talking (yes, just talking) about sending probes to Moon.
What is alarming about it? I still don't understand.
The US has done everything they are talking about. The US is in fact lightyears ahead of them all in terms of technology, money and power. So what is the big deal.
There is absolutely nothing to worry about.
GrimReality
2003-09-19 21:21:42 UTC (2003-09-19 17:21:42 EDT)
Name one war between two stable capitalist democracies in the last 100 years... You can't because it's never happened. The idea that it would between the US and a western European country is ridiculous. Of course our interests drive our foreign policy, as they damn well should. Private interests are part of those interests. That's what a democratic system of government is all about. If you think every other government doesn't do exactly the same thing you aren't from this planet.
As to your two "examples"....
1. First of all there is no "Hague Invasion Act". That's what it's been named by it's detractors. Its actual name is the "anti-ICC American Service members Protection Act." So right off the bat you show your bias. Prosecuting real war criminals is one thing, and sure there have been American war criminals, just as in an military. They are the exception though, as 99.9% of US servicemen are very professional well disciplined individuals. Letting the ICC, which is nothing more then a political tool, prosecute whomever it wants is absurd. They already were talking about bringing Tommy Franks, Dick Cheney, and every other US leader up on charges.
2. Your 2nd example is nearly 60 years old, surely you can come up with something better then this. Even at 60 years ago what the US did wasn't out of line for the time. If Italy had elected communists that would have been the last election they ever had. After all this is the same Europe the elected Hitler and Mussolini to Parliament.
"Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated"...
You lose all creditability with a statement like that. Ever since racial superiority and religious superiority have became unfashionable now you guys go out and come up with "cultural superiority"... pure stupidity. If you actually believe it then you have ZERO understanding of the US or the American people. So go home and keep to yourself because you bring nothing to an otherwise legitimate debate.
What a bunch of morons. As usual, people go off blabbering about things that they know nothing about. China already has a military space network similar to GPS except it is limited to two satellites and regional use. There is no reason why China can't blast off more satellites on its own for military purposes, except they do not wish to attack and dominate other countries like some other nations. The Galileo project is significant in other ways, not militarily.
This comment extends to the general racist comments posted on Slashdot about how [insert the most degrading descriptions possible] China/Chinese are. Keep on believing CNN + Hollywood about how evil China is. Keep on pretending that you care more about human rights and freedoms, especially for the people that you grossly violated in the past, instead of your own interests. Keep on thinking that the average Chinese appreciate being demonized and lectured to. Good job, continue your mental masturbation about your illusion of moral superiority. To all the racists out there, fuck off and die!
"In the US, totally different story. The US wasn't anti anything European, in fact most of us feel a historic attachment to it. After Iraq though, a good portion of Americans are VERY anti French, German, etc..."
m )
I think those americans who dislike the french and german, should think twice. Criticism is good. You may be surprised by it and may hurt at first. Ignoring criticism is just plain stupid, it leads to mistakes and makes you do things you may regret later.
If a friend tells you that you are an arrogant bastard, you may be deeply insulted. But if you come to think about it, the *friend* may not to be completely wrong. He must have a reason to say such a thing, and it better be a good one if he was to use such harsh words.
That said, neither europeans nor americans have found the ultimate right or wrong. As long as both have the same idea about the very basic things, things are in the green. The rest can be discussed!
(While I'm at it, I was very surprised to find this quite good article. The author is not always on the right track, but it's good, sensible stuff: http://www.newamericancentury.org/kagan-052002.ht
We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military.
Ummm, I hate to point this out, but do you mean as system, Europe? For the last 50 years, free Europe has bairly defended itself, and has enjoyed living under the American shield while the US paid the cost. During this time, Europe was more than glad to have their system controlled by some "foriegn general," than do it themselves. Only when the danger is dimmished has it become so paramount for the continent to be free of all the tyrranical American ideas of collective defense and cooperation. It seems to me that modern Europeans have a strange need express independance by defying and contridicting the US at every turn. I find this to be cynnical at best and childish at worst. But, judging by these forums, I guess it is just me.
-Iowa
BTW Did you know that the as of about a month ago, the Swedish military does not work on weekends?
BTW, I know that it may be argued that each country was small, and could not match the resources of the US, so cold war defense had to be from the United States. Yet, somehow, with the danger past, the people of Europe have figured out that if you sum the GDP and populations of western Europe, it is greater than the United States. Imagine that.
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
Wow. So I read the title of the article as "China Joins EU."
Forget RTFA, I should RTFH (headline)
Eric
"Brevity is the soul of wit." -Polonius, Hamlet.
Mr Geeklawyer, you could write a book, but it would be triped up fiction at best. I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but a little reality check for you.
The difference between the United States and other countries like, oh, I don't know, say The United Kingdom, France, or even Roam, is that when we had a chance to conquer the world, we didn't. I know this is hard to wrap your head around, since it is not what obviously you, or your nation would have (had) done in a similar situation. I know, you are yelling,"IT AIN'T SO! THE US WAS NEVER IN THAT POSITION. I MEAN, IF YOU TRULY COULDA, YOU WOULDA JUST LIKE US!" Let me remind you of a little history. I know, I am just an American, and what do we know of History, especially to smart educated Euros like yourself, but bare with me. In 1945, we (that being the US) invented this thingy called a NUCLEAR BOMB. As far as weapons go, it was well, the bomb. In fact, it was so much so, that people often referred to it as, THE BOMB. The bomb was awesome, able to level large cities faster than a rioting crowd after a British soccer match. In fact, the bomb was soooo very devestating that nothing could stop it and to this day, the mere threat of having one dropped on your !## can bring a country to its knees quaking in fear. And that is with the possibility that they or one of their allies could dump one back at you! Now, recall with your more historically astute Euro mind that no one else had one of these until the Soviet Union in 1949. That is, ummm, let me see, American's are bad a math too I am told, hold on, oh yeah, 5 WHOLE YEARS WE HAD ONE AND NO ONE ELSE DID. Oh, I know they took a bit of time to make, but, say we dumped a few on the old USSR, do you think they would have had time to develop one in 1949? No, bing, bing, right answer. Let me see who else could have stopped the US. War torn, I had just spent 5 years and three Empires of money and resources trying to kill my Europe? Ummmm, no people, no cash, no will. BEEEEP wrong answer. How about the ever lovable populous Asian Empires such as China. Well, this little old country called Japan had just put the hurt on them, and they were recovering. And, well, they didn't even have THE BOMB. So, nope. Ok, I could find a few other example, but Americans are also bad at geography, and you get the point. We could have done it. We had the power to do it. We stepped up to the ledge of our darker side, and guess what? We did not do it. Why? Because it is not the American way. This may be hard for a people to imagine who spent so many years making sure the sun never set on their zones of oppression, but Americans really don't think about empire. We don't dream of owning everything and telling everyone what to do in all facets of their lives. If we did, we could have it and would do it. Seriously. I know it is fun to bitch about American Empire and opression, and it makes good literature, but your post is nothing more than just that. So, weave your webs, and jump at your shadows. For all your what if's and possibilities, at the end of the day, we had our test and passed. Sorry you didn't.
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
When europe finally gets round to deciding which side its on either america will be bankrupted or we will be in WW3 on opposite sides.
Thats if you havent attacked us first over the last of the oil and to avoid payment of debt.
beware of that which you wish for.
just a thought from the european continent.
I posted a long time ago (before the Iraq war brought it to a point) that I think that the EU and the US are diverging and drifting further and further from one another. I've read enough political discussion forums to note that the level of animosity between the rest of the world and the US is definitely high, and rising.
I know that every time when a slashdot article is posted on some European, Chinese or Indian project of technical prowess, that quite a number of highly racist, xenophobic posts will be made, a number of people will pound their fists on the table as to why the USA system is superior and that the US military could take 'em all on and win.
And make no mistake, the US military could definitely beat any other military on earth in a conventional war. There are no nations with the American ability to project force all around the globe. The US economy is the key to the world's economy as is evidenced that other economies reel when the US economy takes a hit, and the US certainly does its best to strong arm other nations into accepting US economic terms, and is often successful.
But if there is one big mistake that the USA makes, it is in thinking that the rest of the world is incapable of learning from past failures. The EU wouldn't be there if Europe were incapable of learning from its own past failures. It's inefficient and clumsy but it is the best way for Europe to avoid going to war with itself again, and for European nations to get stronger economically.
Likewise, many countries are very wary of an America that acts alone and starts large unilateral wars for very dodgy reasons. Many countries are beginning to see that the USA is willing to use combiinations of military force and economic power to achieve its goals. These are the reaons that the EU has finally started to act on the idea of a European defense force. These are the reasons that the Euro is becoming popular tender in international commerce. These are the reasons that the Gallileo system is being built to avoid the loss of the GPS system in times of crisis.These are the reasons that China is slowly but surely edging into space, modernising its army and plowing money into indigenous IT.
All these things are happening because all those countries are worried about being dominated by the US in times of crisis.
And all this talk about nuking them (all those horrid countries who would dare to oppose the US) is plain rubbish. The US could certainly "win" a nuclear war, in that it has more missiles than anyone else, but at least some missiles from any opponent would hit the USA, and I don't know about you, but living in a world after a major nuclear war is not something I like to think about.
China and the EU have decided to come up with a new internet. They have come to the agreement that they should not rely on US military technology as the internet once was.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
your comments show your ignorance about history.
Carter and Brzezinski provoked USSR into going into Afghanistan by suppling mujahedins A HALF YEAR BEFORE the russian intervention.
France was at war with Germany before they attacked them in 1940. There was no trust.
SovietRussia and Germany had The Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact which declared how they would divide Poland (my country) between themselves. The Nazis attacked on the 1 September 1939. SR invaded on September 17th after Hitlers explicit request. So on this they very much trusted each other for good reasons.
Please notice, that I do not say those attacks were something good. But all three of your statements are fundamentally flawed. Please don't rewrite history any more.
BTW: the French deserve to be called "surrender monkeys" precisely because of september 1939. we were their allies in 1939, and they did nothing to help. What about opening a western front , you cowards?
Fight Frist Psoting!
Browse Slashdot with 'Newest First'!
Name one war between two stable capitalist democracies in the last 100 years
Peru vs. Ecuador in 1995 for example. Both democracies with elected governments.
To take that to a more extreme level: Germany elected Hitler and his thugs in 1933, who went on to start WWII. It wasn't a coup.
I don't think that there is any guarantee that a "stable capitalist democracy" will not go to war with another if the stakes are high enough, or are seen to be such. The tensions between the US and the EU are complex and are not, as posted by your post's parent likely to lead to war any time soon. This is because the US has good relations with a lot of single countries in the EU, but also because the economic gains in trade far outweigh any idea of a military campaign against an EU country.
However, the EU is the world's largest economic bloc, and is set to become even larger in the coming years. The Euro is gaining credibility as a good alternative to the Dollar as international tender and there are strong signs that the EU will with time form its own defence force (growing with a typical EU glacial pace). There is definitely a current in Europe that is seeking to take Europe out of the American sphere of influence into its own hands. US-EU trade disputes are but a part of this and the Gallileo system is another.
Where this will lead in the future is debatable, but you might realise that the US attempts to split the EU in the run up to the war in Iraq (Rumsfeld's Old Europe) will leave lasting impressions just as the heavy US opposition to the forming of a seperate EU defence force will, and verging on paranoid ideas such as yours that the US should aim weapons to destroy Gallileo (which I am sure that some in your Pentagon agree with) will only highten fears in the EU that the US is only a fairweather friend that would only call those nations friends that are willing to unconditionally do US bidding but is willing to undermine those nations that have their own voice when it is not in line with that of the US.
Europe is going to have to make a decision which side it's on
Your post seems to imply that Europe is either on the side of "them" (the terrorists, anyone who opposes any US policy, the commies, the nazis, the Arabs, the Chinese --you'll have to decide which side you mean exactly) or on the side of the US.
You seem to have this idea that China is the bad bogey and that the EU is an insignificant player in this deal which must decide between the camps of the US or the Chinese.
I think you'll be surprised to discover that the EU is on its own side, as it has its own interests at heart just as the US and China have their own interests at heart.
And you can be sure that if it ever becomes public that the US has specific weapons aimed at these satellites for the next time the US decides to invade a country it doesn't like and actually uses them when say, Iran's number is up, it would firstly be an act of war and secondly that would be it for European US relations, for good probably.
So it's probably a good thing that Linux is gaining popularity here and that we won't have to depend on Microsoft in bad times.
The problem with GPS is that it is controlled by a single entity, the US government. Your argument is that one system is enough. That's like saying one OS is enough, the rest are just wasting time/money.
It comes down to control. The reason Galileo is going to be successful is that no one entity controls it, much like Linux. What that means is that the US government can no longer pull the plug on critical worldwide navigation systems in support of its latest occupation/liberation.
Lets face it, you don't need to rely on GPS to build a highly accurate missile in this day and age, and whilst the US armed forces may need GPS to navigate in the desert etc, I can guarantee you the locals don't need it to know where they are. It's their backyard, remember?
No, the US's problem is that they like to be in charge, so any competing technology that threatens to disrupt that notion has to be fought as being un-American and a "terrorist" enabler.
Newsflash America - the rest of the world is wising up to your control fetish, thanks to better global communication, and they are taking steps to ensure that in the future, you will not be able to single-handedly control critical global infrastructure the way you have in the past.
Quizo69
Visceral Psyche Films
Italy is supposed to be part of "New Europe".
> The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries
> have some form of democratically elected government
> and a homegrown form of capitalism.
Thank you, this is just the funniest claim I read on slashdot this year.
And all the dictators the US installed and all the democratically elected presidents the US helped to bring down are just beacons of democracy and freedom to be erected in every country; by the leader of the axis of ignorance and hypocrisy.
Actually the US only does what is in its own regime's very shortsighted interest. "America first". And if fscking you badly is in their interest, they will happily fsck you.
k2r
Yeah right. Damn, now European Countries dare to not follow the weird and short term Outbursts of America's seemingly crazy president. How dare they. How dare they not accept and follow every single order that's given to them by the US? How dare they to oppose to a war against Iraq that was obviously based on false information and a lot of paranoid propaganda? How dare they not to joyously jump in and repair all the damage the US has done in the first place. Damn, those backward Europeans. First they accept one half of the benefit of 50 years of good relations with the US and now they oppose being under complete control. They even dare to have their own Ideas about how the world's supposed to tick.
No, I really don't get it. This is simply outragious.
[erased the paranoid propaganda in the last part of the post]
> It was pretty anti-American before Iraq
There it is again? What exactly is anti-American? For you it seems, not agreeing with everything American and even expressing it is enough to be anti-American. Why do you even expect people to be pro-American if all the options you give out are agree to everything and do whatever we say you do and be pro-American or don't and be anti-American.
If having a different opinion is enough to be anti-American, well so be it. I'll gladly be called anti-American because being pro-American really is no option for any slightly educated person.
What about your private life? Do all people agree with you on all accounts and follow your orders? If not, are they your enemies as soon as they don't? A view like that in normal life won't have you keep a lot of friends if any. How do you think this would work out in politics?
Although it represents a danger to US forces, it is not particularly ominous that Europe is building this system, because Europe itself is not likely to be involved in a conflict with the US. The danger comes if potential enemies (North Korea, Iran come to mind) develop precision positioning capabilities knowing that the US will not be able to disable them by turning off or degrading the GPS unencrypted signals.
But when China is added to the equation, things change significantly. The US guarantees Taiwan's freedom, and other nations should favor it, as Taiwan is a healthy democracy, unlike China. China has as its primary strategic goal the conqueruest of Taiwan, with a secondary goal of dominating the South China sea. Furthermore, China is an expansionist power that has no qualms with using utterly ruthless means (ask the Tibetans). Europe is not this way. The US is not. Hence giving China a say on such a system is giving a dangerous fascist dictatorship significant power.
Those who do not see the danger that China represents to the world have not been paying attention. Everyone is focused on the fact that the US has taken out a couple of nasty dictatorships, while ignoring China's record of aggression and conquest, of killing millions of its own citizens, of continued extreme human rights abuses (there is no organ shortage for transplantation if you are chinese elite - they now have roving execution vans with facilities for rapidly harvesting organs for transplants).
China may ultimate become democratic. Certainly it has more information flowing into it than other totalitarian states like North Korea or Cuba. But China right now most closely resembles a fascist state - with the largest ownership of commerce being the People's Liberation Army; with a powerful secret police; with significant political interference with industry, and bribes a way of life; with a corrupt but brutal leadership (their kids are called "little princes"); with a racist and strongly nationalist view of the world; with expansionist desires; with the largest army in the world.
Letting them into Galileo is a shortsighted and dangerous move.
The only good weather is bad weather.
The specifications for civilian-level GPS are an open standard that anyone can use. If China wants to build its own GPS receivers based on the U.S. it already has the right to do it. So there's no reason China can't get involved in EU's own system. I say if thats what China wants to spend their money on, its China's business. Seems China could benefit from a strong civilian GPS like system.