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China Joins EU in Galileo Satellite Venture
CHaN_316 writes "Yahoo has posted a story that says China to Participate in Galileo Satellite Program. 'The agreement provides for cooperation in satellite navigation, technology, industrial manufacturing, market development, frequency and certification'. This is definitely a good boost to the satellite program since it injects fresh cash into the project. There are probably strategic reasons for joining this network since it's an alternative to the American controlled GPS system. Here's more information about Galileo." China is also moving quickly toward getting a man in space.
China says it has high hopes for its Garireo joint-venture.
Galileo is to plumet into Jupiters atmosphere on Sunday!
Story also on BBC NEWS- China will cough up 259 mega-dollars towards the costs. The Pentagon are not too happy about it, but it does give the EU a way to do important things like landing planes, without worrying that someone else could throw the switch.
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
Why must nations always get involved and turn space exploration into an Us vs. Them contest?
I wish we could all just work together, share ideas (much in the same manner that Linux engineers share programming code), and unite to accomplish one common goal, such as a manned mission to Mars.
This would lower taxes, make a Mars mission occur much sooner, and encourage a gentle more loving dialogue between the mainstream nations and rogue nations.
We owe it to science to drop our national flags in the name of progress. Please reply with, a) the country you currently reside in and b) whether you think your country would work with the United States in a joint space mission and c) (optional) if possible, state your country's current economic spending on space missions.
Thank you! This should make for interesting data.
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
i like reading news where china is collaborating with the west, rather than taking pains to block it out (eg great firewall of china)
:)
granted, this is a pretty high level program but the idea of it is good.
or maybe china is gearing up for a space coup to take over the world and we're all doomed. i'll need to think about the significance of this one
I can't make up my mind. On one hand, it's just stupid for humanity as a race to have two competing satellite based positioning systems, when one can be shared and the resources used for the other could be used for, say, more research or a new launch system.
Oh the other hand, it's this competition that usually drives progress. So far, the one for all and all for one model (soviets) seems to have failed while the super-capitalistic model (america) seems to be winning, but looking back 1000 years from now, is this the model that will perpetuate our presence in the universe?
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
Any time I've seen Galileo mentioned in the US media, it's been treated as some sort of anti-US measure; it isn't.
Well, it isn't totally an anti-US measure. We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military. Doesn't really matter who that military is; any system where you can find yourself suddenly lost at the whim of some general half a world away is a system to be avoided. And as the Iraq war is showing, the US is increasingly cagey (cagy? How do you spell that damn word?) about others using its system in time of war. And that time of war looks like it's going to extend indefinitely.
<anti-US bit>
Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".
I'd love to see one big happy world, but in its absence I'm reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America.
</anti-US>
let the flames begin...
That they'll be able to use this in Wartime? If the US Govt is willing to alter GPS to their whims, whats to stop the air force from lofting a few ASAT missiles to accomplish the same goal? Taking away the enemies ability to navigate would be priceless.
Reuters reports that a huge queue of Chinese wannabe astronauts are forming following rumours that in outer space, nobody can watch you surf.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
...when you're cooperating with the enemy.
I mean, China's interests are not the world's interests. History folks: read it.
I don't know how to say this withought sounding paranoid, but just because you have a science co-op doesn't mean everyone is interested in the same thing. China is more than gung ho about this project because EVERY space launch technology is dual-use for military application. I think it is a little cavalier (that's "dangerous" for you folks in high school) to do anything that puts more power in the hands of anti-freedom communists. Look at what they are doing to democratic Taiwan if you want to see what they would do to Europe or the U.S.A. if they had the ability.
You're talking about a nation that has a reverse-firewall on the entire CONTINENT... to keep people from being "infected" by rogue ideas like ownership, equality, and government existing through the sanction of the governed. You're talking about a nation that controls the news media with an iron fist to keep people from knowing when bad things happen as a result of communism. China is the closest thing to 1984 on the planet right now. Do we really want to share technology with them?
From http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MarApr01/a dams.asp
GPS Signals Jammed During Tank Trials
Lieutenant Colonel Lester W. Grau, US Army, Retired
Based on 6 August 2000 reports in The Sunday Times of London, Agence France-Presse and the 25 September 2000 Elevtheros Tipos, Athens
The highly accurate Global Positioning System (GPS) supports modern ground forces as they move and shoot. Maps and compasses stay in cases as digitized forces quickly use GPS to determine their location and the enemy's. Although map-reading skills atrophy, few worry that GPS may suddenly provide erroneous information or cease working. Still, US Army equipment has already faced attacks on GPS functions--by allies.
In August 2000 the Greek government sponsored a tank competition at Litokhoro to determine the Greek army's next tank--a deal worth $1.4 billion for 250 tanks. Competitors included the British Challenger 2E, the US M1A1 Abrams, the German Leopard 2A5 and the French Leclerc. During the trials, the British and US tanks had navigation problems despite using multiple GPS satellites to determine their positions precisely. After the embarrassing performance, officials discovered that the GPS satellites were being jammed--by a French security agency. Less than a foot high, the jammers transmitted stronger signals than satellites on the same frequency. The jammers were reportedly hidden on the firing range and remotely activated as US and British tanks were tested.
Greek defense officials found the jamming episode rather amusing and discounted the associated technical problems. The threat remains: if an ally can create such havoc during a test, what effect could hostile GPS jamming have during combat?
I have worked on the Galileo project on a technical level and it really does need some new impetus, and some new capital injection, ESA is being quite slow at coming up with the funding at the correct time (even though its been signed off at a political level). It truely is a project of massive scale, and involves alot of interfacing between European space companies.
Another benefit of this is there isn't as big a rush to launch the first testbed satellite that was going to block/reserve the frequency blocks that Galileo is going to use for fear the Chinese will get their first.
I wonder how the US views this move, considering they are already unhappy with the Galileo implications in the first place. Especially with Chinas ICBM ambitions.
How is this an arms race started by the Europeans? Didn't the US have GPS up first?
;)
Becuase it's not a race if only one person is in it
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
As it is now EU is not capable to begin any serious wars. Not from military capability prospective - such decision would be politically impossible in EU. China is also not that stupid to through nuclear warheads here and there - they realize that that would be the end for all of us.
The problem is that US administration is driven by corporations, currently by those who is benefiting from any military race. And there is no way to stop them.
Less is more !
"If they declared themselves a sovereign nation separate from China, they would have their seat in a day. "
And an invasion the next.
I am a little shocked by your statement: "reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America."
I'm not sure whether you're taking what I said out of context or whether I was just unclear in what I said. But allow me to elucidate...
When I talk of a "world except America", I'm not talking about a world without America. Most of the world perceives the US as slave to multinationals and willing to fuck over whomever it deems necessary to maximise the profit of those corporations, be it US citizens foreigners, foreign nations or even continents. I confess to a certain amount of sypathy for that attitude myself. But everyone (everyone) I know who has "anti-american" feelings has great respect for American people, american technology, american cultu^H^H^H^H^H cinema and many other aspects of The American Way. We laughed as you demonstrated in 2000 that you didn't give a damn about democracy, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who was bitterly disappointed, too. Many sneer as you rip up your constitution one article at a time, but many, many more would love to see you decide that you really are interested in freedom, after all.
All anti-American sentiment (faith-based initiatives such as al Quaeda aside) is focussed solely on your government and its foreign policy. And those hugely fat bastards with camcorders who think that all foreigners speak English if you shout loudly enough.
I read recently that GLONASS would be incorporated into Galileo, or that what has been built of GLONASS would be made to work with Galileo. It's good to see the Russians returning to their common European home.
A repeat of an earlier post (sorry about the dupe, but this article may be of interest.
Nope, GLONASS will not be part of Galileo. GLONASS started to work at 1993, and still up and running, they have 11 satellites total at this time (up to 24 at 2007(?)), and it's military controlled system. Many russian-made receivers can work with both GPS and GLONASS system.
China is getting involved in the Galileo project? What lucky timing: On Sunday, September 21, NASA's Galileo spacecraft will end 14 years of exploration in spectacular fashion: by crashing into Jupiter.
Can we get them to have the check sent by overnight mail, or would a wire transfer be easier at this late stage?
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
You yourself say that any alternative to GPS is a major threat to the US. If that is the case, then NOT having an alternative to GPS is a major threat for everyone else.
Face it, most of the world is worried about lunatics like Bush being in charge of a war machine that is yearly being funded as much as the next 25 countries, especially given the long range of wars, invasions and coups the US has started, staged or supported over the last few decades - including several actions in clear violation of international law (at least one of which the US was convicted of - mining harbours that had civilian traffic in Nicaragua), and several that involved the overthrow of democratically elected governments (Chile and Indonesia to name two).
If people worldwide are being threatened, I for one support any measure that will make it easier for people to defend themselves against US aggression.
This is such a laughable assertion that I could write a book discrediting it. American has spent 100 years threatening and enacting diplomatic economic and military warfare against those who threaten its private interests. It is not unique in that of course, we British did the same for the past 200 years when our empire was the pre-eminent one. The US is now the pre-eminent empire and it bullies those countries who offer a challenge to its authority. Such attacks are of course justified as necessary to defend 'freedom, democracy and international order', as it defines it.
Non-one is fooled for a moment - well, ok, you are apparently.
However, two brief and far from unique examples suffice to prove you wrong:
1.the Bush 'Hague Invasion Act'. If a US soldier commits a war crime and the Hague International Criminal Court convict and imprisons him the US will attack the Hague. The Hague for your information is a part of Europe (old Europe of course).
2. After the Second World War (c. 1946) the US threatened Italians that if they voted into power the communists they would attack them with the residue of their WW2 forces in the rest of Europe in order to overthrow them. Naturally this was to 'defend freedom'; poor simple Italian peasants didnt know what was best for them so you threatened to invade to persuade them to do the 'right' thing; which just coincidentally matches your global plans for freedom.
Italy is also a part of Europe (old Europe).
the US has threatened Europe at many different levels, including militarily, in the past. Since we pose an actual threat to US power and influence it is not hard to imagine that in the future more threats will arise.
If Europe ever threatens US global corporate interests it will be bullied and threatened with attack - this is the demonstrable pattern of US imperialism. Only if we are not dependant on American military technology can we ever have the option to do defend ourselves against it if the need arises. Only a fool would deny himself even the option of self defence against a tyrant - even if the tyrant is one who currently pats you on the head and says 'good boy, good faithful boy'.
Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated let me put it in terms you might understand: would you like to rely for your national defence on Gallileo?
The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries have some form of democratically elected government and a homegrown form of capitalism.
Jeeeeesus, where to start with this one? (do you work or Bush?)
Understand that I dont blame you for your public display of self-delusion. You are a dupe. All that saluting the flag crap you people do at school has indoctrinated you into the belief you are part of a good nation. But ask around the World. Ask the people of S.America who have spent decades of being murdered tortured raped and otherwise subject to US sponsored US organised terrorism by Fascist governments and their Green Beret trained special forces who are taught to electrocute burn and beat. All financed by the CIA in order to protect US banana/oil/rubber/whatever companies.
of course you'll need to browse at -1 Troll to see this since all the yanks mods will regard this comment as clearly unhelpful to freedom.
And if I ever fly to the US I will be detained at guantanamo bay as a "terrorist sympathiser". Another legitimate act of self defence by Bush.
-he who laughs last, is a bit slow.
journal
Name one war between two stable capitalist democracies in the last 100 years... You can't because it's never happened. The idea that it would between the US and a western European country is ridiculous. Of course our interests drive our foreign policy, as they damn well should. Private interests are part of those interests. That's what a democratic system of government is all about. If you think every other government doesn't do exactly the same thing you aren't from this planet.
As to your two "examples"....
1. First of all there is no "Hague Invasion Act". That's what it's been named by it's detractors. Its actual name is the "anti-ICC American Service members Protection Act." So right off the bat you show your bias. Prosecuting real war criminals is one thing, and sure there have been American war criminals, just as in an military. They are the exception though, as 99.9% of US servicemen are very professional well disciplined individuals. Letting the ICC, which is nothing more then a political tool, prosecute whomever it wants is absurd. They already were talking about bringing Tommy Franks, Dick Cheney, and every other US leader up on charges.
2. Your 2nd example is nearly 60 years old, surely you can come up with something better then this. Even at 60 years ago what the US did wasn't out of line for the time. If Italy had elected communists that would have been the last election they ever had. After all this is the same Europe the elected Hitler and Mussolini to Parliament.
"Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated"...
You lose all creditability with a statement like that. Ever since racial superiority and religious superiority have became unfashionable now you guys go out and come up with "cultural superiority"... pure stupidity. If you actually believe it then you have ZERO understanding of the US or the American people. So go home and keep to yourself because you bring nothing to an otherwise legitimate debate.
I posted a long time ago (before the Iraq war brought it to a point) that I think that the EU and the US are diverging and drifting further and further from one another. I've read enough political discussion forums to note that the level of animosity between the rest of the world and the US is definitely high, and rising.
I know that every time when a slashdot article is posted on some European, Chinese or Indian project of technical prowess, that quite a number of highly racist, xenophobic posts will be made, a number of people will pound their fists on the table as to why the USA system is superior and that the US military could take 'em all on and win.
And make no mistake, the US military could definitely beat any other military on earth in a conventional war. There are no nations with the American ability to project force all around the globe. The US economy is the key to the world's economy as is evidenced that other economies reel when the US economy takes a hit, and the US certainly does its best to strong arm other nations into accepting US economic terms, and is often successful.
But if there is one big mistake that the USA makes, it is in thinking that the rest of the world is incapable of learning from past failures. The EU wouldn't be there if Europe were incapable of learning from its own past failures. It's inefficient and clumsy but it is the best way for Europe to avoid going to war with itself again, and for European nations to get stronger economically.
Likewise, many countries are very wary of an America that acts alone and starts large unilateral wars for very dodgy reasons. Many countries are beginning to see that the USA is willing to use combiinations of military force and economic power to achieve its goals. These are the reaons that the EU has finally started to act on the idea of a European defense force. These are the reasons that the Euro is becoming popular tender in international commerce. These are the reasons that the Gallileo system is being built to avoid the loss of the GPS system in times of crisis.These are the reasons that China is slowly but surely edging into space, modernising its army and plowing money into indigenous IT.
All these things are happening because all those countries are worried about being dominated by the US in times of crisis.
And all this talk about nuking them (all those horrid countries who would dare to oppose the US) is plain rubbish. The US could certainly "win" a nuclear war, in that it has more missiles than anyone else, but at least some missiles from any opponent would hit the USA, and I don't know about you, but living in a world after a major nuclear war is not something I like to think about.