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Java Desktop System Rivals XP, OSX in Usability
protohiro1 writes "In this glowing review Chris Gulker calls Sun's Java Desktop System 'the most polished and real-world user-ready Linux desktop in existence.' Well, I'm sold. Will this finally sell the PHBs on a linux corporate desktop?" Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
The enlarged screenshot is actually here, for anyone interested.
It looks like it's just ordinary Gnome with a theme, like Ximian Desktop. Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the apps running in the screenshot were Java-based... it shows StarOffice, Gaim(?) and Evolution.
and of curse Star Office 7.
Just to exercise your brain cells - Linux (and XFree) is written in C - does this prevent you from running programs written in other languages?
Jeez - the stupidity of some people.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
In this glowing review Chris Gulker calls Sun's Java Desktop System 'the most polished and real-world user-ready Linux desktop in existence.
From this article :
The "proper" name of Sun Linux is "Java Desktop System" (which can be confusing as Sun is branding everything as "%java%" lately, exactly the same way Microsoft did with their ".NET"). The development/high-end version of Java Desktop System (JDS) is called "Java Enterprise System". The distribution is based on SuSE 8.2 and not on Red Hat Linux as it was originally said about a year ago.
According to that article Java Desktop System is a Linux distribution, not just a desktop.
The Sun Java Desktop System has as much to do with Java as every average Linux distribution.
The term "Java" in the name of this product is just marketing. The Java Desktop System consists of normal Linux applications and is not written in Java!
I don't know what a "gnome-distro" is, but accodring to this article :
The distribution is based on SuSE 8.2 and not on Red Hat Linux as it was originally said about a year ago. Yast2 and other SuSE/administrative utilities are only accessible via the command line and not from the graphical menu system. The desktop is based on Gnome 2.2, though Sun's engineers have tweaked it quite a bit.
I came to this article after reading what Sun think of Linux in this story. Really puts this marketing bullshit into perspective for me.
Here's what I found on Sun's site: "The software consists of a fully integrated client environment based on open source components and industry standards, including a GNOME desktop environment, StarOffice Office Productivity Suite, Mozilla browser, Evolution mail and calendar, Java 2 Standard Edition and a Linux operating system."
Translation: in no way, shape or form is this desktop written in Java. It is merely branding, the same way Microsoft brands a version of Windows "Windows .NET Server" and Visual Studio ".NET" in order to tie together their .NET brand.
The Java desktop is not written in Java and has almost nothing to do with java. It is Gnome. It will run on Windows when Gnome does. The Java name is just marketing. It has nothing to do with the underlying technology. The more accurate name for the "Java Desktop" is "Sun Linux". More information
Of course it's not. And I trust that you apply the same standards to Microsoft. But if you want to stop bad behavior from occurring, you should not support companies that practice it. Simple as this: By supporting Sun, you support SCO's battle against Linux. If you give them money, chances are that some of it goes directly into SCO's pockets. If you use their technology, you indirectly contribute to their bottom line.
Your proof is from internalmemos.com?
The authenticity of this memo has been well established and never denied by Sun.
This argument right here tells me you don't really know much about professional web application development.
I am well aware of the fact that Java is considered the development platform of choice for most ebusiness applications these days. So what? Most businesses still use Windows even though they together could save billions by switching to OSS on client and server and contributing to open source development. You yourself cite "conservative" companies, so don't act as if a company using a specific technology automatically validated said technology.
I wish people would try to write a few decent sized web applications
You mean like Slashdot, which is larger than 90% of these "professional applications", more reliable than your shitty JSP websites and hacked together by a few kids in Perl? The very site you are using would never have been possible in Java, because it never would have scaled to its present usage on the handful of low-end servers it is based on. Slashdot is a real-word application with impressive scalability and minimal implementation cost; this bullshit distinction between "professional" and non-professional application is nothing but close-minded "I get my paycheck for coding Java, so it's better" type thinking. How much have you done with Perl? How much have you done with Python? Have you even looked at Apache's powerful mod_perl 2.0 and CPAN's archive of modules for virtually anything you might ever need, updated every day by programmers from around the world and free to use? Have you looked at Perldoc, Perl-based object-oriented programming, Perl XML implementations ranging from XML::Simple to SAX and DOM parsers and so forth?
Sun bought StarOffice and released it as OpenOffice.
Because they see Microsoft as their arch-enemy and would love to be Microsoft. Once they have a significant market position with OpenOffice, they will cease supporting the open source version and make improvements available in the commercially marketed StarOffice only.
Sun put much needed people on the GNOME usuability project. Sun has been marketing Gnome to its customers
Because CDE, their own desktop environment, is such a piece of crap that anyone who spends more than 5 minutes with it leaves the room screaming or becomes clinically insane. Much like vi, really.
I was interested in checking it out, but at $50/seat/year it's a little to much for me to suggest setting up on all the machines
Actually, the $50/employee/year pricing is only if you have the Java Enterprise System also. Otherwise, it is $100/Desktop/Year. If you take a look at the Sun Network Computing 03-Q3 web cast, Jonathan Schwartz justified their pricing mainly on following points:
1. A company looking for a Microsoft upgrade will find it has to pay $179 for Windows XP and $279 for Office. So, they are primarily targetting companies that are looking for an upgrade.[I am not too sure about the prices, but Sun's offering is way cheaper).
2. The cost also includes the cost for migration and support. They will assist and even indemnify against SCO-like lawsuits.
3. A phone system for an employee costs $300 to buy + $300 per year for maintenance. Sun demonstrated software that uses VoIP and existing networks to integrate the telephone with this desktop. Lucent is providing the technology for this.
4. Even the $100 is chosen so that CIOs can calculate the amount spent on IT in their head. 1000 desktops, the spending is $100,000. That's it.
If anyone's interested, the presentation also shows Looking Glass 3D desktop and compatibility demonstrations using Office documents from Microsoft's website.
getSexySig();
You aren't the target market. Its aimed at large organization that can use an inexpensive desktop for groups of people.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm not the target market. But I still am the one making these decisions. They have to convince me.
As far as you go, your TCO calculations are confused as well. You are comparing not paying anything more for what you already have versus spending anything for something new. Under those circumstances nothing will look good, even another windows or linux box. Try comparing a new windows box with office versus Sun's new kit. The math looks a little different.
No, that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying I keep Windows boxes (and Linux/BSD/etc.) running longer than their costs. The cost for Windows isn't really significant because it's a one-time cost - and many machines don't get upgraded for quite a while (uh.. because they work now and I don't need to change them?) -- So when I look at a set of machines and have to decide what I'm going to install, am I going to install/recommend something with a annual cost, or something we can just buy and forget? Also remember that some machines (not connected to the internet) work just fine and are rarely touched by any IT -- now they would have to be tracked (license costs), and that is extra work for IT and accounting. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it isn't -- In this case, I haven't seen any evidence to say it is.
- "Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price."
- "If you use Linux on the server, even if we sold the distribution to you, you are on your own. If you buy our Java desktop solution you are completely indemnified as long as you run it as a desktop solution. And by the way, don't take our desktop product and put it on the server. We are indemnifying them for our products. If we incorporate someone else's component we will make sure that we can indemnify it. I have licenses to all those issues that SCO is suing IBM for. If I didn't have them, I certainly wouldn't indemnify them."
- "eWEEK: So, does the uncertainty around Linux benefit Sun and Solaris?
With friends like these, we don't need enemies....Schwartz: We have an interesting migration opportunity now because we can go back with Unix that is familiar, we can deliver the Java Enterprise System pricing at $100 per employee, which allows them to run Solaris at infinite scale.
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
I find it odd that few of the tech press have picked up on it, and even fewer people have taken notice of the consistently good reviews it gets for this type of application, but Xandros Linux has *already done* what Sun is trying to do, and they have had their product out for 10 months now.
If you are a intermediate/advanced Linux user, Xandros probably won't interest you for personal use, but as a way to get win refugees started, it beats every other distro hands down (including the perennial favorite "newbie" distro, 'Drake). The sole purpose of the distro is to make win refugees be able to get using Linux with the least amount of pain and adaptation possible.
Xandros V.1 is Debian Woody based, uses older software libs, desktop uses KDE2.2, has *excellent* networking abilities with win shares and other b0xen (using the proprietary Xandros File Manager (XFM)), and has a simplified "Start" menu with 1 "best of breed" app for each task a user may need to perform. Hardware recognition on install is great, it picked up my hotplugged Archos MP3 player, Canon camera, USB mouse, etc etc with no problems post-install. It is intended for the "enterprise desktop", with stability being a prime requisite for any software which comes with the distro. Xandros V.2 (based on much newer software) is in beta testing right now. Individual prices - The "Deluxe" version (US$99) comes bundled with CrossOver Office and PlugIns, so that no msOffice or browser functionality is lost in the switch to Linux. The "Standard" version, without the costly CrossOver software, is US$40.
So, if you can't or don't want to wait for the Java desktop to be ready, try the Linux desktop that is already doing what Sun is hoping to do.
I don't work for Xandros, I do want to see them succeed - they understand what is needed to help migrate people to Linux.
It looks like Sun knows that too, they're just late to the game, IMO.
You claim that multisession CDs are insanely complex on OSX, and cite an article to prove this. Well, I read the article (rare for a /.'er, I know, but I did it anyway). If you find that insanely complex, then I can't imagine how you've ever burned a CD on any system. The instructions read:
1 Get stuff.
2 burn on CD.
3 repeat 1-2 remembering to check the "allow multiple burn box" (ie remember to check the "allow multisession" box).
4 Press a button to finish.
That didn't look too hard, much less ``insanely complex'',
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I went through the article and pulled out the various criteria that the desktop was under and list them below:
Pleasant looking at launch
Documents folder in the user's home directory
Opened with a view of all data repositories
Theme pervasive
Star Office 7
Unfortunately, the review was based largely on cosmetic appearances. Though important, they will certainly not cut it for an enterprise roll-out.
The one functionality related comment is on Star Office 7. Though the OOo team has done some great work, and I think it is a fantastic suite for home users, I do not believe that Star Office (or OOo) are ready to repalace MS Office in the work place any time soon. Why? Just a few reasons: file compatibility, macros, driver support, presentation tool, etc. etc.
Furthermore, there are several key feature sets that the article ignores that are critical for an enterprise desktop rollout:
---Networking - can this thing jump onto the company's windows network plug and play or do you have to go learn Samba3?
---Application Compatibility - the company will likely have legacy or windows apps they need to run. Does Sun desktop do anything for them?
---Mail server - I know they are using Gnome, but does Sun have any deal with Novell (current home of Ximian) to let it talk to Exchange?
---Installer - Did he try to install it? If you are going to have to put it on 2000 desktops at a company, I hope that works very very well.
---Distribution - What distribution is this residing on. This could make a huge difference in how well the thing works. Red Hat and dependancy hell? No thanks.
I think if you take a look around, Xandros probably has by far the best desktop for corporate use. It solve all of the above issues and is tremendously easy to use. You could also check out Suse, though I think it will be lacking in a few areas.
I want to see MS come down, but this brief write up doesn't have me convinced the Sun Desktop herlds in a new era...
Hunger is the best sauce.
I have given little, if any, reason for my "Sun Bashing", so the fact that you assume to know my motivation for my position must make you a clairvoyant. None of that has anything to do with what is popular on Slashdot these days. I think I have made it clear on which issues I disagree with Sun, and for what reasons. You chose to ignore them, and toss about the usual bunch of red herrings.
The usability work that Sun has put into Gnome is questioned by many, and can be said to only serve to confirm the long term position Sun wants to take with respect to desktop computing. That does not make their work wrong, it simply confirms my point of view that Sun does not do anything for the "community", and does not at any point act altruistically.
This isn't about whether or not Sun has the right to use open source code, far from it - nowhere do I state that they have been naughty or that they have been stealing - I simply point out that their relationship with the "community" is not all that good. Look into the mailarchives of the projects you mention to gauge that communities opinion of Sun. secondly, I point out that for all the posturing, Sun's new desktop is not Open source, and does not deliver to the customer those benefits that make open source such a good porposition for customers. In the long term, this could well turn out to be the most damaging effect for Open source. Finally, to say that this new desktop is going to be cheap in any way is ludicrous. the cost of migration to and implementation of this offering is going to be high, very high.
I don't give a rats about what sun does, as long as they don't make false claims and statements, and as long as they would stop posturing as some great "Open Source" benefactor. They are not a benefactor, (neither are IBM or any of the vendors for that matter, but that is a different story).
What is your point, anyhow? What did I say specifically that you disagree with? That is not very clear to me. On the other hand, you make it seem as if the way Sun is acting is the only way a company can interact with an Open Source community, which is a sad and blinkered view of the world. Look to Codewaevers, for an example of a truly symbiotic relationship between closed and open source. Look to Sun on the other hand, for a good example of as parasitic relationship.....
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
They are charging That much for it too.. That's rediculous.. The only "commercial" products in it are Java which they give away for free, and the sun one connector... Pricing FAQ
Um in virtually every app you just highlight text and click the middle [or both for 2 button] button.
I hate this method. If I accidently highlight any other text in any other application, I loose the items in the cut-n-paste buffer.
I agree that it can cause problems. Namely, when I cut something to the clipboard it is sometimes very important that it not be lost before being pasted somewhere else. Say I'm cutting code from one editor to another. I could make a backup, but then my productivity goes down if I have to do this many times. Plus, that would interfere with the flow of my work.
I have, though, that cut and paste in Linux is vastly improved nowadays. At least Ctrl-X/C/V finally work in GUI applications. And to those who would say "just because Windows does it that way, doesn't mean it's intuitive", what is the point in choosing a different way? Would you choose different default shortcut keys? How would it differ functionally that's better? And is it worth the steeper learning curve for new users?
scripsit daviddennis:
The reason you don't find many three-button mice out there is that the wheel on the MS `IntelliMouse' and similar mice is the third button. You'd be hard pressed to find a new PC sold without a wheel mouse. Unless you're talking about truly antiquated hardware (my 1999 Dell came with an IntelliMouse), three buttons is pretty standard.
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
Good point.
And many of us *are* their customers. Until recently, we were excusively a Sun shop, with Sun hardware in the server room, and X terminals and Sun Rays on the desktop. The Sun Ray is an excellent product, but Sun has priced it at $500 a terminal, without monitor. For $100 less, I can get a computer with Linux pre-installed that'll integrate in with our system just fine.
(Granted, that doesn't address management; Sun Rays are truly plug-and-play, and have some cool features, like the mobile card thingy.)
However.
We have been moving to MS-Windows on the desktop. (Not my choice: I'd go Linux or BSD or even the HURD, of course, because I want to control my computing future.) We have been replacing some Sun systems with Linux in the server room. Our purchase of Sun equipment has dropped dramatically.
And after seeing the way Sun treats FOSS (and by extension, FOSS developers), I think I am going to encourage we move away from Sun completely.
I will make a prediction: Sun will go the way of SGI. That is, a niche player with a dwindling customer base, which makes good hardware that very few people really use.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
use adobe acrobat, not the reader, hit shift+Ctrl-O or file==>> open web page
It is known as acrobat web capture, and it is great!
Especially for those web pages that are here today and gone tomorrow.
Quote: "Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price."
Sun: "We Don't Believe Linux Plays a Role on the Server"
So, let me put it this way: FUCK SUN and their Java Desktop!
I've seen some places where shift-insert doesn't work. I think the address and subject fields in Microsoft Outlook is one place; you must use ctrl-v instead. And of course there are plenty of X apps that don't support that sort of thing.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Windows has multiple cut-n-paste buffers also (not that I ever use them).
You can hold different items in the buffer, paste them to an application in any order you want. There is some method for switching the order of items in the buffer.
So, similar to what you are suggesting, but slightly more intuitive.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."