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Java Desktop System Rivals XP, OSX in Usability
protohiro1 writes "In this glowing review Chris Gulker calls Sun's Java Desktop System 'the most polished and real-world user-ready Linux desktop in existence.' Well, I'm sold. Will this finally sell the PHBs on a linux corporate desktop?" Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
So, it rivals OSX in usability because Nautilus has a toolbar button that opens a Documents folder, it can browse SMB and NFS shares, Evolution showed an hourglass cursor while launching, and - are you ready for this? - cut, copy and paste work.
Yep, I'm sold.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Unlike MS systems, this will be REALLY configurable, so that more computer-savvy users can change the window manager and the behaviour of the windows, etc... This system may set the standard for many KDE/Gnome versions and distro's to come.
-- Cheers!
I know the review implies that it is a Linux distro, using Gnome and running StarOffice and various OSS apps, but the Sun description of the Java Desktop implies a Java-only platform with "Gnome look and feel", which is not quite the same thing.
The review and Sun's own pages appear to be describing two different things. Perhaps simply because Sun wants to push the Java aspects, something that I suspect interests relatively few people.
Perhaps the fact that there is a demo CD but nothing to actually try makes the discussion a little moot.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
That's great. It has pretty icons and widgets.
Now could I please have a rundown on all the backend stuff?
This includes but is not limited to:
What tools do Sun intend to provide me with so that I can create a Standard Operating Environment.
How effective are these tools in large scale configurations?
How well can application rollouts be managed on >100 machines?
"SUN HAS PRETTY WIDGETS!" doesn't give me any useful information whatsoever.
I see no mention of Java being used in the core of this system, it's all built on Gnome & GTK isn't it? I heard that Sun have started to recognise the marketing potential in Java and said they will be exploiting it to greater extent in the future. Is that what is happening here?
-- "Can't sleep, clowns will eat me!"
Can we say *yawn*?
Ximian pops up looking like Outlook. The overall layout looks like Windows. Ad nauseum. Once again, someone is scraping together a Linux distro, trying to make it look like Windows, and giving us absolutely jack in terms of innovation, *better* usability, or creativity. Trying to accomodate Windows users by giving them a similar interface, but branding it Linux, is just plain foolish.
Make a product that's better than Windows on *all* counts, is bundled with custom-written applications instead of tweaked versions of existing ones, and then i'll raise an eyebrow.
I don't think Windows is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but let's acknowledge the faults of the alternatives. There are dozens upon dozens of Linux distributions, and so far, i've seen virtually *nothing* worth noting from an interface perspective. We brand everything as being intended for this and that audience, this and that purpose, whatever emphasis..but with the exception of some underlying framework, isn't this just a essentially a rehash of what dozens have done before?
I'm sure this will get more than few people stepping up to proclaim the vast differences between their distro of choice, but please save it. "Debian uses apt!", "Gentoo uses portage and is intended for..!" meh. They're both Linux, they both lend the capacity to do whatever the hell you want, and they can both be made to run the exact same applications...which, really, is what the average end user cares about, above all.
The average user is going to take one look at this stuff and go, "Ok, so if it looks like Windows, but doesn't run all the apps I need, why bother?"
How XP can even be mentioned in a way that suggets it's even in the same usability tier as OS X? People who use OS X, love OS X. People who use XP, absolutly hate XP. Not to mention XP has that wonderus task based system where it takes, by my count last time I used a PC, 5 steps to even be able to see your files. It takes 1 on OS X, and I don't have to dig through system control panels to do it. Look, maybe this is a bit flamey, but more than anything it's true. OS X is, by far, the easiest, most powerful OS I have ever personally used. A open sourced, Unix core, no known viruses that are not for a Microsoft program, and just ease and intuitive of use. I de-wormed 7 PCs during the last Windows worm outbreak, I last de-virused a Mac 4 years ago. That's a big usability point to me
But hey, so far as the story goes, I don't know if this will or won't even be around next year, especially given Sun's seemingly forever questionable financial status (I once owned Sun stock, I'm intensely familiar with this). All I do know is, one more alternative on the desktop is not a bad thing, especially when it is something basically brand new.
Request: ECM unit, 1000 km fullerene cable, 1 tactical nuclear weapon. Reason: Birthday party for foreign dignitary.
Sun recently started to use "Java" the way MS used to use ".NET", i.e. as a marketing term for anything new they released, whether it has anything to do with Java/.NET or not, technically.
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
From an article:
Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price.
Obviously Sun is not "committed", but all in all, this bodes well for Linux: more desktop apps will be tested and developed specifically on Linux.
However, you can expect Sun to push the Linux solution for a while, utilizing the momentun Linux has (and Solaris doesn't), and as sudden "problems" with Linux appears, the don't really have motivation to fix the problems; rather, they suggest that the customers of their "Java Desktop" switch to Solaris-x86.
Also from the article, regarding the perception that Sun is being unethical in supporting SCO:
I can't do anything about the perception that's out there and to be blunt, I don't care as those people aren't going to drive our future--customers are.
So we don't matter, eh? The Open Source community are not your "customers"? Schwarz misses part of the point, in that techies are their customers, and quite a lot of techies are very Linux-sympathetic these days. Arrogance doesn't help anyone, either.
I dunno, but Schwarz comes out as quite an asshole in that article, and I can't really tell whether I wish Sun a great success with Mad Hatter. It is good for Linux and Open Standards and all, but Sun has the wrong attitude about the whole thing. They would do well to play a "nice guy" for a while (like they do/did with Open Office), it might occasionally pay off.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Here's a *real* java desktop, free. Looks cool
http://www.jdistro.com/
Sun is still hawking their "thin clients" model, just replacing proprietary hardware that no-one bought with commodity hardware that everyone is supposed to have (and a certain OS for i386 machines that (only?) Sun is entitled to use without fear of lawsuits, sez SCO...)
So, What's the real deal? Sun wants to capture the corporate desktop to keep their rapidly declining server business alive (Fat chance...). To reach that goal, they are now trying to "Embrace and Extend" Linux, even to the extreme of actively supporting SCO.
I dont think it's going to work. Sun should just crawl off to where the other dinosaurs went.
Actually, at the risk of sounding like a zealot I've heard of organizations with ratios of 1 IT guy supporting a couple thousand machines without difficulty. Crazy? Nope - Mac OS X (and OS 9 before it even). I didn't believe it myself (and Im a Mac user), but people with large Mac installations (all three of them) seem to get by pretty well without a lot of support costs.
:)
My memory is a bit hazy, but I think I talked to a few folks in K12 who made those types of claims (I was trying to do an informal TCO study of large Mac installations since you can't find a good recent one from something like Gartner), as well as a guy from Los Alamos IIRC. Perhaps we just got used to the support intensive Windows model.
OK, Im being a little vague, but its 3am and my buzz is wearing off
Just by looking at those pointless desktop Icons and the crappy windowframes I get physically sick. Oh, yes, I'm just sooo sick of it all!
When in Gods name will people learn that if you want to be usable thou shalt NOT ape windows. For heavens sake!
And the guy who wrote the review doesn't seem to know squat about usability if he goes about mentioning XP and OS X in the same sentence.
The Java Desktop might be the most consitent one on Linux (I seriously doubt it thoug) but it shure as hell is NOT usable by modern standards those of which are NOT defined by MS but by people like the Enlightenment, Fluxbox or - when not aping crappy windows themselves - the KDE Application team.
Don't get me wrong - Java is cool and a speedy Java GUI enviroment that blends into your Destop is even cooler - see OS X for what I mean. But this thing is a lame 'me too' excuse of a *nix Desktop.
And this raving article about it all has so much bias it literally stinks.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
For something as complex as a desktop OS, it's virtually impossible to have "usability" without usage, and to-date this OS has no users to speak of.
Show me even a meager 500,000 users who consider the usability of this to be on par with WinXP or MacOSX and then you'll have a story. Otherwise this is just PRWire disguised as a lab study.
It's very good to see Sun launch a a Linux distribution that won't make repel adults in horror, but Gulker perpetuates at least one of the abiding and unfortunate errors of many Linux supporters.
Contrary to the linkage made by the review, ease of use is not synonymous with "dumbing down". Ease of use does not mean hiding capabilities. It simply means what it says: easy to use.
Example: Creating a "Documents" directory and suggesting users sore all their documents there makes a system easier to use. Nothing frces a user to do that; no capability is lost. If a user wants to track through the file system and store files in other locations, nothing prevents that. A "Documents" directory is based on the same principle as the "etc" and "home" directories. Both provide a suggested place to store files that share certain characteristics. If using a "Documents" directory is for dummies, why don't we see smart admins storing configuration files all over the file system? Surely, anyone smart enough to use Unix doesn't need help finding files?
Other examples exist, but the perpetuation of the bogus ease of use/dumbing down linkage remains an ugly theme of the Linux community.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
IMO, Java on the desktop is not very good. I see no reason why someone should code apps in java, with the exception perhaps of the great web app, when the the free Qt toolkit and the much more mature and robust C++ exists.
Multi-platform support (*nix, windows, embedded,mac), native GUI, networking, threads, you name it QT almost has it all. In fact I don't see any advantage in using these semi-interpreted languages (including m$ C#) to the native C++/QT combo. Garbage collection? I find creating objects with QObject parents so convenient! No more leaks. Write once run anywhere? QT does that with a simple recompile from a single source. Please enlighten me if I have missed something. But right now you have to pry C++ from my cold dead hands to make me switch over. C++ plus QT is C++ on steroids.
Disclaimer I don't work for Trolltech. I just happen to find QT so damn nice!
So, if it's gnome based and all that, then how can it be 50$/seat? I mean, mustn't the sw be downloadable from the net, regardless of how much the "Sun's engineers have tweaked it quite a bit"
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
And this addresses NEITHER ONE OF THEM.
It's not open enough for techies and it's too wierd for the rest of the market.
This seems pretty pointless. Who financed it?
It is Sun's Linux distribution with their own Gnome-based desktop.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Calling this thing a "Java desktop" is rather deceptive. Sun took the Gnome desktop, bundled it with a Java runtime and JavaCard authentication, made some cosmetic changes, and then just called it a "Java desktop". Pretty much all the applications, all the policy decisions, all the behavior, and all the functionality are Gnome's. If this is a "great desktop", then so must Gnome be.
In seven years, Java desktop application use is virtually non-existent. Sun has already tried and failed to create and establish a Java-based desktop with Java applications. So, what do they do? They take a successful open source desktop written mostly in C and C++ and call it a "Java desktop". I think that speaks volumes about the suitability of Sun Java and Swing for writing desktop applications and about how desparate Sun is getting. I think it also shows a disrespect Sun has for open source, despite a veneer of support and opportunistic open source licensing of some of their products (mostly in an attempt to harm competitors or to prop up bad Sun standards).
From a practical point of view, this won't matter. Basically, what this really says is that Sun is replacing CDE and OpenWindows with Gnome on their machines, and that they are shipping Java along with it (surprise). Sun had already announced that they were going to do that.
What will be really interesting is whether Sun will start shipping Mono with that, since it looks increasingly likely that at least some Gnome applications will be written in Mono (just like some Gnome applications are written in Python, Perl, and C++).
The Java Desktop system will be the most leading edge GUI on the market. It will be at least several generations ahead of MAC OSX or Microsoft's forthcoming longhorn. If you want more functionality and a richer experience like 3d then you will probably have to pay. Unless the the opensource community want's to step up and commit the progreamming resources necessary.