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Intel Warns Asia Over Linux Plan
rimbaldi writes "Intel's CEO, Craig Barrett recently warned the Chinese government that their attempt to create regional standards for computers and communications, including standards using Linux-based software, may be doomed to failure, since 'such a strategy might protect local companies and markets in the short term, [but] it would make it more difficult for Asian companies to participate in world markets.' This is in reaction to earlier Slashdot-covered stories about an Asian software consortium and China disallowing foreign software."
who woulda thought that this was Intel's stance on the position? China subsidizing the Dragon chip doesn't make Intel that happy.
I mean.. who would want to lock himself into a market consisting of 1/8 of the world population!?.. ;) .. Gimme a break.. had it been Bulgaria or Sweden okay.. but China.. GL HF Intel!
It's funny how Intel is saying that China would be creating "Proprietary" standards. Umm... how can they be proprietary if they're open source and built on linux? They won't be so "proprietary" if everyone can see their standards and work on interoperability... I would see this as more beneficial than locking themselves on closed proprietary systems. (albeit they are more widely used)
---- Move SIG...For great justice!
Anyone suprised?
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
... China's own attempts at a cpu. With Linux and a good plan, these nations will only be a recompile away from ditching Intel.
How about he explains why they wouldn't be able to take part of the global market?
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
Lets see, at ~$150 saved per PC without Windows, times about 2 Billion PC's... Buys one hell of alot of "lets go participate in world markets".
And if you skip the "Intel inside" you can double that savings easily.
Yet again more asian long-term thinking at work.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
This isn't an anti-Linux stance. It's a stance against customizing everything for China. Linux just makes it easier to do. The warning is for China not to close themselves off from the rest of the world by creating a proprietary OS, apps, etc. Wow. China being insular. Who would have thunk it?
Isn't just that there are so many of them.
The great thing about standards, and having "open" systems, is that everybody is on fair ground. Why does Red Hat and Suse outsell their competition? Is it because they have some "secret extra" that locks in their customers?
Well, no (at least not for the most part). It's because of the other things they bring to support the standard, such as service, support, upgrades, developing to add to what has been done to make the "standard" easier to use.
So if China wants to base their software on Linux, more power to them - as long as they obey the GPL. If they make an improvement to make it easier to use Chinese characters on the command line, great - release it to everybody else. If they make a processor that works like Intel and they want to make it public, have a good time.
So I disagree with Mr. Barrett in principle that using regional standards is a "bad" thing - as long as those standards are published, realized by everybody, and don't have any hidden "gotchas".
What China will have to remember is the great thing about standards - there are so many of them. They (and by this I mean China's oppressive communist government) might think of some great standards, like "electrocute religious dissodents if they touch a computer". Or "file encryption systems must have a government backdoor at any time".
Because the rest of the world might not want to use that particular standard in their stuff. And if you have 75% of the world not using your standard, you either have to a) say you don't care (and make Mr. Barrett right), b) modify your standard, or c) join the rest of the world.
And if it turns out they're just taking the intellectual property of others - including Linux and yes, Intel - and not returning it to the group, they'll find that people will not be as interested in playing in their sandbox.
So have fun, China, and I hope to see some interesting new standards. I actually wish you luck if you decide you want to make your own processors and software, and if you truly want to make both open for all to use, have a good time.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
If China/Asia decides their own course of technology specific to there needs, would the rest of the world not try to interoperate? I mean there's over a billion people there!
Would it not be prudent to have technology that works the way they need it to, instead of accepting whatever multinationals decide is good enough for them?
And anyhow if it's based on open standards, will it not be easier to interoperate with them anyhow??
I think the statement is more about protecting Intel's interests (i.e. selling chips), then what's "good for asia"
Intel has been very friendly to Linux in the past, and for good reason. Linux provides a means for Intel to take market share away from the likes of Sun and HP. Why buy a non-Intel server when you can do the job just fine with an Intel-based Linux server? (True for many tasks, debatable for others.)
On the other hand, Intel has much to fear from Linux. If there were a large enough market that didn't care about Windows, then it would become practical for Linux users to question whey they should run on an expensive Intel chip instead of a cheaper non-x86 CPU from another vendor. The lock-in to the instruction set would be gone. Intel would have to compete head-to-head with MIPS and the likes in the desktop market, not something they want to do.
Today, the majority DVD player now support VCD, SVCD (which have NO DRM whatsoever) and MP3s (bonus). DiVX;-) support is just starting to appear. I betcha by XMAS the 'de facto' player will list DVD,SVCD,VCD,DiVX,WMA,MP3 compatibility (and OGG too hopefully).
Simple marketing: Q: "How do we get all those people with DVD players to spend money on a new one this Xmas?" A: Release a new line with new ATTRACTIVE features.
I just read the whole article (no, I'm not new here) and it sounds to me like Intel is just telling China not to create proprietary regional standards that will not interoperate with the rest of the world. No mention of "don't use Linux" or "use microsoft and be happy", so off with the tin foil hats.
The interesting thought exercise is what happens if China and their massive population suddenly get their act together and emerge as a technological powerhouse? Then they can tell intel to conform to their standards or risk losing a giant revenue stream.
Finkployd
With a population of 2 billion people. China is a 200lb gorilla, and everyone knows it. If China, with rest of Asia went 'standard' or 'non-standard', whatever they choose- with that much weight to throw around- it will become a STANDARD. Intel and M$ knows this and are warning off.
In the short-term it may be good for Asia, in the long-term it will be good for Asia, because instead of Asian companies trying to be compatible with US/European standards, it will be the other way around.
Even with a measily 10% of population using computers in China (if in the future that should happen), it would larger then the WHOLE U.S. population.
200lb gorilla indeed.
And of course Intel welcomes the Chinese production of high-quality, low-cost computer chips.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
We intend to lock people into proprietary formats, preferably DRM encumbered so we may legally keep others from creating compatible programs or import filters so you can use alternative OSs.
Microsoft is working very hard to keep there from being a "critical mass" of people using alternatives, so that everyone "muat" buy Windows/Office because that's what everybody else uses. Once people start expecting compatibility with "everyone", where everyone includes Linux, the game is already half lost. Regardless of whether they actually use Linux at that time, Microsoft doesn't want to give that alternative, simply because it hurts those running Linux who can't communicate properly with Windows users far more than the other way around.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Heh.
Heh-heh.
So, Mr. Barrett, was the last time this sort of thing has been tried in a locale of 1.2 billion people?
Basically, Intel is scared. If this takes off, Intel will suffer dearly in a market that currently generates 3.2 billion dollars of revenue for them. Roughly 12% of their total revenue comes from China alone.
You'll forgive me, Mr. Barrett, if I have trouble keeping a straight face.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Does intel think that they are going to tell china, "you are going to fail".
If china wants to develop for a different platform. Its their choice. If they also want to develop on a different processor then what intel offers then that is their choice. Personally I like it. If china/asain succeed's not only will they have a nice platform (hopefully) They will have a cpu that isn't pulled down by all hacks to make it modern.. I Say 'Hey china go ahead'.
Why should china put money into other country's when it can put it into their own.
Really I think intel just wants money. But their solution is just a hack for backword compatibilty.
Theres really a point where backword compatbility stifles things.
(the itanium is nice tho, since its not x86 based.)
I will shutup before I get too offtopic.
...when a big American corporation feels that they can go ahead and issue warnings to the freakin' government of China, that might just inadvertently send the signal that the government is doing the right thing in attempting to prevent becoming beholden to "standards" that are largely controlled by big American corporations...
Except for writing my new book (my publisher supplied me with Word macros that I must use), I find this $199 PC with SuSE Linux to provide a super productive environment! When I get time to get back to work on my own products next December, my cheap Chineese PC meets all my needs (in my case, this is running Java JDK, ant, IntelliJ, Tomcat, Joram JMS, JBoss, etc.) I have to love low overhead and a $199 computer is a sweet price point that an Intel based machine would have a difficult time meeting.
Off course I expect noise like this from Intel!
Intel likes globalization when it favors them :-)
-Mark
So let me get this straight - a filthy-rich chip company is harrassing developing nations for using open source software solutions, which run great on the very chips the company makes?!? And calls open source solution proprietary?!?
The SCO crack pipe is making the rounds fast here in the States... And I think I know who's supplying the rock....
Note to the world from a US citizen: Please take Linux and use it to build up your nations' infrastructure, secure and inexpensive. You'll get a better OS, one YOU can control, and save money better spent on your population's well-being.
And if you have some democracy to spare, please export some to us/US. We appear to have run dry over here....
But, even if China does create new silicon and computing hardware, the input data and output information can still conform to international standards (ASCII, HTML, etc.) Just because the information was created without profitting Intel or AMD hardware sales does not make the information bad.
I understand he wants to protect potential profits from selling $billions of Intel hardware to China, but this FUD about incompatible standards doesn't cut it. Even if China were to make their own silicon, I'm sure a few patches to gcc would make their C++ code compile just fine for their new hardware. If China finds a way to make it (faster, cheaper, better; choose two) than what is available from current vendors, then they should make it.
One of the reasons that Open-Hardware is not generally available is the large cost of generating the silicon, and the logistics of distributing the hardware worldwide at a reasonable price. But if China is funding the fab factories, a key barrier is removed; and that should scare the beancounters at CPU manufacturers.
I don't see how embracing an open implementation (Linux) of a 30 year old industry standard (Unix) is going to keep someone locked out of a global marketplace. Seventy percent of the world server market isn't exactly a technical backwater.
I have to agree; the only possible reason for intel to take this stance is money from M$. Otherwise, they only stand to gain by other countries embracing the first *nix to be specifically designed to be compatible with Intel chips.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
It worked nicely for Intel and Microsoft. This is exactly why these companies dominate their markets. They have forced standards. They are doing the same thing now by forcing DRM on consumers (and YES, DRM will be forced..just watch).
So instead, Barrett expects Asia to allow Intel and Microsoft to create standards for them? Zzzzzt.
It is absolutely clear why Barrett is taking this position: "By 2010, Intel said, China would be the single largest market for its PC and communications chips." If Asia goes off, builds their own OS to their own standards, Intel and Microsoft will be threatened.
Build away Asia! This will force change and flexibility on the industry. Stagnation only benefits those that are intrenched.
He mentions nothing of Linux and as a matter of fact said that stimulation of local software development would be the right direction (translation go with your linux plans but leave the hardware to us). Now of course he is going to say this. I think in the short term they need to be trying to keep a finger on AMD which is about to make their lives miserable with the release of their 64 bit chip.
Got Code?
..including standards using Linux-based software, WE may be doomed to failure, since 'such a strategy might protect local companies and markets in the LONG term, it would make it more difficult for AMERICAN companies to participate in ASIAN markets.
Anything anyone from a company says regarding a competing product/technology needs to be taken with a grain (or two) of salt.
Of COURSE this is a bad idea - because it means competition and potential loss of revenue for Intel.
Geez - what if the proprietary standard chip in China is better than Intel's prorietary standard chip in the US?? If you didn't have to worry about backwards compatiblity, and started with a clean slate could that be possible? That would REALLY suck for Intel - especially if all Oracle (and other software companies)had to do was recompile the existing source to run on the new chips (ok - porbably more than a simple recompile, but you get the idea)...
Yea, you gotta feel for Wintel. China is a huge market, and I think everyone can agree the likes of the Dragon chip isn't part of Intel's plan. There be real competition there.
I can't see any real alternative for SE Asia. They surely don't want to be utterly behold'n to Microsoft/Intel. Two companies that seeming lie outside the reasonable care, custody, and control of the US's own Government let alone SE Asia.
Choosing WinTel isn't a features based purchase decision. It is a LONG term decision akin to choosing your nation's telephone standard. It *IS* a national security question, and its not just about worm 'o the day and "NSA" keys. Why, in all that is, would ANY country choose to pay a such long term economic tax to a foreign corporation that is above its own law? Worse, both Intel and Microsoft have PROVEN themselves uttery untrustworty.
So SE Asia buys into WinTel, they rend their US style path of death and destruction, and when China moves to stop them.... US Trade sanctions.
Yea. I'm sure they're lining up.
Computers/Software are THE core infrastructure of the modern economy. How would you the US would fare if every drop of oil was bought and sold by a single, say Iraqi, company? Secure? I think not, execpt for the fact we can, and will, bomb the S**T out of people to further our agendas.
Yet that is what WinTel would have for SE Asia. Every data bit locked into Wintel DRM and annual program rental fees. Effectively forever.
> You have to ask yourself this: is there an advantage to having a proprietary standard in your country?"
As always, the narrow edge is in the implementation. Linux is NOT a "proprietary standard" by any means. It could be made into one, in a defact sort of way, but Intel has assume a good deal in painting this as pure "protectionism" so soon. Yes, it may turn out that way.
Or not. Linux could be made better into what it aspires to be. A critical infrastructure on which ALL markets can communicate, troll free. Who better than the Asians to contribute their needs to such a platform?
Oh Gee...
You better not let prevent us from taking over your markets of 3 Billion people, or we won't allow you access to our 400 Million....
Errr...yeah riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggghhht.
Fact is, like it or not, China could build its own products, and all of its own technology, and completely shut the West out and make one hell of a killing.
They do not need us.
If you ask any Chinese technology business over there, they do not like the fact American companies think they can't do anything worth while in computing, space, science...etc unless western companies invade their markets.
I think during the next 10 years we are going to have one hell of a surprise in store for ourselves as China tells us where to stick our computers and our software.
-gc
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
such a strategy might protect local companies and markets in the short term, [but] it would make it more difficult for Asian companies to participate in world markets.
Given the size of China, Japan and Korean markets combined, I'd say that statement could be turned on its head.
The World markets might find solutions based on the Asian standards to be perfectly adaptable to simpler Western alphabets and to be less expensive, too.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
There is actually a lot of doubt. Intel has been trying for years to find ways around Microsoft. They have just failed badly like most non processor related projects.
Intel has other problems with china trying to build its own OS for its own CPU chip. Its the CPU chip if they really have one.
This is all part of an even bigger picture. Corperate america is hitting a wall and hitting it hard. I saw the same thing at Motorola. The Asain market has been the next big thing for close to 10 years now and it has never appeared.
The Chinese government has required companies to place facilities in china in order to get a foot hold. This has resulted in the transfer of all sorts of knowledge to china. Including silicon technology. It looks more an more like american companies are going to bleed america dry of jobs it get a new foot hold that the china has just said will not appear at all.
If if was craig barret I would be oh shitting very heavily right now.
You can also thank our government for this. They have let it happen. But it is after all the government bought by the corperations, of the corperations and for the corperations.
The bill to ammend the constitution will soon be sponsored by corperate america to make it crime to say this.
well, there is intel's profits to be concerned with. if china rolls out it's own chipset, national protectionism and government consumption will make it a non-trivial contender.
of course, this will almost assuredly never happen because this is exactly the sort of thing the wto has been working on abolishing. setting up national tariff and subsidy barriers to protect domestic industry is much "worse" for the economy than allowing fledgling local technology to be crushed by the existing, near-monopolistic, foreign multinational. duh!
2 1337 4 u!
'such a strategy might protect local companies and markets in the short term, [but] it would make it more difficult for Asian companies to participate in world markets.'
OK, China has over a billion people. Add in other parts of Asia that would like to participate and you've got a market that is something like 4 to 5 times as big as the US market. And then consider
that most of the European governments will probably be adopting Linux over the next five years... And then we'll see Barrett's quote being made by someone else in either Europe or Asia that goes something like:
'The strategey of sticking with Windows might protect local companies in the US (like Micro$oft) in the short term, but it would make it more difficult for American companies to participate in world markets.'
Actually, Barrett doesn't care much at all about Windows (he only cares as much as it promotes Intel CPUs) - he's most worried about China's own CPU (Red Dragon, or whatever it's called) improving to the point where it can be produced competitively with Intel's own CPUs. When that happens, Intel probably won't be selling too many units in China.
In the plans of China, Japan and Korea to develop their own system based on Linux, did they at any time mention establishing proprietart, local interoperability standards? As far as I can tell, they would develop their own OS and support software and adhere to global standards such as TCP/IP and other open standards (such as XML, etc.)
Does Intel know something about these local developments that we're not aware of?
Another good question is who decides on what becomes a global standard. It most certainly isn't Intel. This just boosts the need to have an international organization that is open to ALL countries without prejudice. So that countries like the aforementioned can participate in open standards development, yet not remain reliant on foreign software developers.
I'm all for free trade myself, but sometimes a government, for the good of its people, not just the businessmen, has to take a hand to prevent a disaster -- in this case, a US monopoly dictating computing standards to the entire nation of China.
The government is doing what governments are supposed to do. Serve the interest of all, not just the interested few. By doing this, they will obviously boost their own IT sector, and free it from ruthless exploitation by a runaway US monopoly.
Remember, Microsoft no longer operates in a free market. It is a monopoly, which means it owns and controls the market, no matter how you wiggle around the term "owns".
China, it can be argued, is just leveling the field. Too bad for Bill.
The US has always used government fiat to boost its own businesses. We ignored copyright laws of other countries until the 20th century. The guv built a highway system to crush the railroad companies, build the auto giants, and create massive susburban growth to the detriment of the cities and public education therein.
It chooses winners and losers by awarding defense contracts. It controls interstate commerce. Regulates imports to benefit American interests. It now chooses who can and cannot run foreign countries. In Iraq, the administration has now served notice that the nation MUST permit foreign interests to control their public and private companies.
In comparison, China telling MS to take a hike ain't so bad.
I think China has good reasons for being wary towards foreign software. Remember the NSA backdoor that the Swedes found in Lotus Notes software used by the Swedish government?
If the NSA plants backdoors in software even if it is used by a US-friendly, peace-friendly country, why would China trust any US software? And if that happened in pre-9/11 days, after 9/11 things could only get worse.
And it isn't just national security. There are rumours that NSA gave critical info intercepted by Echelon to Boeing to help the company win a contract over european Airbus.
Just conspiracy theories?
Maybe, but China wisely covers its backs just to make sure...
... that China would come up with a useful,
:-(
cheap, alternative to the Personal Computer
as-we-know-it and make it a de facto standard
to be followed by the rest of the world due
to its large home market.
Yeah, that can't be - only white man can invent
computers; we all know that
Toon Moene (g77 maintainer).
Intel is also making every effort to emphasize that all the trusted/digitial restrictions infrastructure can be disabled as well.
The fiasco with digital serial numbers and the impact that had on potential sales is very clear in their minds, and they don't want a repeat. It's clear that there are markets for TCPA, etc AND markets for free computing. No sane company is going to make a move that limits their markets.
Just curious, what would be the name of that cheaper non-x86 CPU? As for now I see all non-x86 personal computers and workstations are more expensive than same performance x86 ones. Or did I miss some one?
Less is more !
"Although such a strategy might protect local companies and markets in the short term, it would make it more difficult for Asian companies to participate in world markets, he said"
.doc file 'cos I only have MS Office" by 2010.
We're helping to bring in Palladium and we won't tell you how it works unless you play the game our way.
That means if you want to compete with the rest of the world you have to do your local standard here, and then work on an all-new set of development" to meet standards used in other markets
How dare you set up local standards that aren't OUR local standards particularly if your local standards happen to be open and available to all because they're based on Open Source.
You have to ask yourself this: is there an advantage to having a proprietary standard in your country
Unlike our free, open and totally honest and democratic standard as presented by Microsoft
rival standards co-exist, although he predicted that a single technology would eventually win out
If Microsoft can have a monopoly I see no reason why we at Intel can't have one of our own.
Mr Barrett's comments come after a visit to several Asian countries and the opening of an Intel research and development centre in Taiwan. By 2010, Intel said, China would be the single largest market for its PC and communications chips.
There's a billion of you and 250,000 of us and unless we can screw your embryonic chip and Linux based software market we expect to be saying "but I can't send you a
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
Despite a long-standing and profitable relationship which constrains public friction, Intel and Microsoft have often had battles of varing seriousness on a bunch of topics...
.Net)
Intel has been / is mad at Microsoft about:
- Constant attempts over the years to generalize their OSes to other processor archectures (NT on Alpha/MIPs, Pocket PC on all sorts of non-Intel (non X-scale) cpus and, of course, x86-64 and the eventual cpu independent version of
- Blocking Intel on hardware standards and initiatives
- Microsoft dragging it's feet about supporting new hardware features in the OS (eg USB on NT (never really), Hyperthreading (2 years) and Itanium Architecture (Linux had IA64 up and running 3 years before Ms)
-Microsoft's attempt to position Intel cpus as just another processor they support.
Microsoft has been / is mad at Intel about:
- Intel's general support of Linux in general including founding and funding the Open Source Development Lab (where Linus and Andrew are employed now)
- Intel's support of HP in running HP-UX on Itanium and Intel's historic support for Novell Netware, Solaris, Unixware and other Unices
-Support for OS-independent management and other hardware APIs that let other OSes get parity or better with Windows
-Occasionally making end-users aware of the prickly truth that the cost advantage of "Wintel" vs big RISC UNIX is all Intel hardware economics which makes the solution cheaper in spite of the greater cost of the Ms software
-Intel's attempt to position Windows as just another OS they support.
That would be a good example of irony. Another good example is Microshaft and Intel farming out their programming overseas, then whining like a bitch when a those very same nations collaborate to cut them out of the equation. Or is that hypocrisy? I get confused myself sometimes. :)
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Strange.
Intel has been one of Linux's greatest supporters. It has helped Intel break into the risc dominated unix field with cheap lintel servers.
The problem is that the original article had a significant slant, and the Slashdot post warped this entirely out of context. Look at the original quote. Barrett is simply warning China that trying to *deliberately* produce incompatible systems to protect local tech companies is a bad idea. (If the only computer you can use in China is Chinese-made, it helps out local tech.) AFAIK, Intel isn't even at risk -- China's best efforts aren't anywhere near competitive to Intel. The statement is a pretty good, clear, reasonable technical argument.
If Barrett ever mentioned Linux, it wasn't part of the quote. The suggestion that he was pushing against Linux was introduced by the article author. We have no idea whether he was talking about hardware, application software, or what. Heck, even if he *was* talking about Linux, I'll happily buy into his quote. While using Linux may be a very good idea, using it because you're trying to deliberately introduce incompatibility to protect local industry is quite stupid in the long run.
May we never see th