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Entire NASA Safety Board Resigns

identity0 writes "All nine members and two consultants of NASA's Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel have resigned today, reports CNN. The Panel was responsible for advising NASA on the safety of its spacecraft and facilities, and was set up in 1967 following the Apollo 1 fire. Recently, it had been criticized by the Congressional investigation into the Columbia accident. Here is the NASA press release, and the official home page of the ASAP."

39 comments

  1. Hmmm by krist0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I dont like it when people cock up and then resign....i always feel that they should stay and fix the mess they created....

    well, kinda hard with the shuttle and all, but you get my drift...

    --
    all you are, is all you are, i'm so sorry for you.
    1. Re:Hmmm by rekkanoryo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have to consider something though. What if these people aren't capable of cleaning up their mess--what if they screwed it up so bad they can't possibly fix it? It's not entirely impossible to do, after all.

    2. Re:Hmmm by krist0 · · Score: 1

      then i reckon they should have to learn. Kinda reminds me of my sister in law, always getting herself in crappy "relationship problems"....biggest basket case this side of ikea....she gets in stupid situations, then her family needs to bail her out...rinse and repeat....i say, let them stay until they figure it out (or get lynched)

      --
      all you are, is all you are, i'm so sorry for you.
    3. Re:Hmmm by sahrss · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What if they were not *allowed* to do their job well? That's a good reason to resign as a group, if management won't let you do your job...

    4. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that's a fresh opinion we don't hear too often. It's either that or "those $#%!@#$ should be fired for incompetence" that appears so often here.

    5. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a tough one. That's the same excuse the cathlic church used to keep about those priests. So it kinds of depends on how bad you "cock up".

    6. Re:Hmmm by fireduck · · Score: 3, Informative

      I see it the other way.

      Their resigning makes the statement that "we failed in our mission. we take responsibility. we're now going to step aside so that you can implement new policies with a new safety board."

    7. Re:Hmmm by Urkki · · Score: 1

      If that's the case, then there's a good chance they won't have the decency to quit either...

      Which can lead to situation where the not-so-good guys stay, while the good guys quit...

    8. Re:Hmmm by R.Caley · · Score: 1
      What if they were not *allowed* to do their job well?

      Then (presuming good faith) they would have resigned at the time their advice was rejected - i.e. long before the accident.

      If NASA was not allowing them to do their job well, and they kept doing the job, they must have been content to do the job badly.

      This reminds me of a couple of years ago when the whole EU commission resigned after the publication of a report on corruption. It is a beurocrat's response to incoming shrapnel from an investigation. The theory is that you get under cover and if you don't take a direct hit you may be ablle to sneak back in when the storm blows over.

      --
      _O_
      .|<
      The named which can be named is not the true named
    9. Re:Hmmm by FroMan · · Score: 1

      I disagree. When someone proves they are inadequate for a task, do not continue to give them responsibility. Not everyone is able to do the work they are assigned.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
    10. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then (presuming good faith) they would have resigned at the time their advice was rejected - i.e. long before the accident.

      Ah, what you say is true. lol

    11. Re:Hmmm by kevinank · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Reading through the accident report, it appears that the current head of the safety group did resign a couple of years ago over safety concerns after NASA decided to start outsourcing more of its basic operations without adequate secondary checks. (He had been a NASA project manager, and after his resignation in protest, he was rehired to head up the safety group.)

      I'm not sure it was clear to the safety personnel that they were doing a bad job. Rather it seems from the description as though the whole internal structure of NASA was constructed so as to give the safety office as little independence and influence as possible. Within that structure it is hard to imagine anyone I know being able to perform a truly critical review of decisions. NASA culture was so steeped in the assumption that safety came first, that no one was given the opportunity to take an objective and systemic look at the integrated system risks.

      No one had authority to look at the forest, everyone was forced to inspect the individual trees. By getting bogged down in detail, NASA was incorrectly convinced that the thousands of safety procedures they followed protected them from an anomaly that didn't concern the guys responsible for that subsystem.

      --
      LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
    12. Re:Hmmm by R.Caley · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure it was clear to the safety personnel that they were doing a bad job.

      If they recomend X and X neither happens nor is rejected for considered and sane reasons, or if they ask for access to information source Y and are denied for political or beurocratic reasons, or if they are snowed under with paperwork and nonsense, then it must be very clear to them that they are not being allowed to do the job.

      --
      _O_
      .|<
      The named which can be named is not the true named
  2. reorganization? by zonx+lebaam · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A resignation letter that says "we have a lot of hard work in front of us"? Perhaps they aren't resigning from their jobs but merely from the board. Perhaps when the reorganization takes place they will return to doing exactly what they were doing before? This article seems to be saying something that you've got to read between the lines.

    1. Re:reorganization? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Insightful? Apparently moderators don't RTFA either. The "we have a lot of hard work" statement was not in the resignation letter, but said by O'Keefe talking about what needs to get done to get back into space.

      RTFA. I think you're spending too much time reading between the lines and not reading the lines themselves.

  3. NASA: "Need Another Seven Astronauts" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Shortly after the Challenger disaster on January 28, 1986, a sick "joke" started circulating. NASA was reported to mean, "Need Another Seven Astronauts."

    Unfortunately, as news reports come in about disregard for safety for Shuttle Columbia, it appears that such "joke" has a major element of truth. NASA bureaucrats (and probably politicians up to and including at the White House, as well) disregarded Morton Thiokol engineers in 1986, and we're now hearing that engineers warned NASA officials and the President prior to Columbia's launch that the Shuttle system itself was prone to such a disaster as witnessed yesterday. We know that Columbia was hit with "something" ("foam" or more likely, ice) during its launch on January 16th, and apparently, officials didn't take it seriously enough (Cain slew Abel; did Leroy Cain slay Columbia?). The excuse that "Columbia's crew was doomed from the start because they couldn't make repairs" is both silly and illustrates the current "can't do" attitude of today's NASA, which is far different than the NASA which both put humans on the Moon AND safely returned a crew to Earth after Apollo 13 had a "major malfunction" way up there.

    For NASA's bureaucrats (and some politicians), it appears that risking astronauts' lives, NOT for the "unknown variables," but for glamour, expediency, and selfishness, is "acceptable." Perhaps this is to be expected in today's America where "style" and "appearance" are far more valued than substance and tangibility.

    The "joke" way back in 1986, "N.A.S.A. = Need Another Seven Astronauts," has tragically turned out to be 2003's reality.

    1. Re:NASA: "Need Another Seven Astronauts" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      The excuse that "Columbia's crew was doomed from the start because they couldn't make repairs" is both silly and illustrates the current "can't do" attitude of today's NASA, which is far different than the NASA which both put humans on the Moon AND safely returned a crew to Earth after Apollo 13 had a "major malfunction" way up there.
      Apollo 13 lost one of the spacecraft, but they were fortunate to still have the one with the heat shielding to use for reentry. The "can do" attitude would not have saved them if they lost their heat shielding like Columbia did. Unless, of course, you have a solution for the apparent silly excuse of not being able to fix the shielding on the wing edge that you have been keeping to yourself.

      Remember also that the "can do" NASA lost three on the launch pad (Apollo 1: Grissom, White, and Chaffee), and six others in aircraft training accidents (Freeman, 1964; Bassett, 1966; See, 1966; and Williams, Lawrence, and Adams, 1967).

    2. Re:NASA: "Need Another Seven Astronauts" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      [quote]
      The excuse that "Columbia's crew was doomed from the start because they couldn't make repairs" is both silly and illustrates the current "can't do" attitude of today's NASA, which is far different than the NASA which both put humans on the Moon AND safely returned a crew to Earth after Apollo 13 had a "major malfunction" way up there.
      [/quote]

      *ahem* Bull Shit.
      Colombia only had a few opportunities to avoid destruction, and they were all during lift-off. If NASA took the impact seriously, the orbiter could have detached from the external tank and glided to one of several emergency landing strips. Unfortunately, the impact was not taken seriously and the orbiter was inserted into orbit. Once there, nothing could be done. It did not have the equipment to dock with the ISS. It did not have EVA suits on board to allow the crew to examine the damage outside the shuttle. It takes several weeks it not months to prep another shuttle, even an emergency shuttle, for launch - way too much time. There was absolutely nothing NASA could do. And, remember, they didn't even think the impact was an issue until Colombia was incinerated during re-entry.

    3. Re:NASA: "Need Another Seven Astronauts" by applemasker · · Score: 4, Informative
      No one knew about the foam impact in realtime during the shuttle's 8-minute ascent seqeuence. It wasn't seen until the next day when engineers were reviewing post-launch film. At that point, the shuttle was in orbit. There was no data available at the time of ascent (though some was later found in the form of sensor readings from the left wing that suggested the foam strike) warranting an abort.

      Second, Columbia had two EVA suits onboard as all shuttles do. The suits are a moot point unless you can get another shuttle up there in time.

      As pointed out in the CAIB report, if NASA had concluded early in the mission that Columbia was mortally damaged, there was a possibility that Atlantis (which had already been mated to its ET/SRB stack in anticipation of an upcoming mission) could be launched before consumables aboard Columbia ran out. Once in proximity, the Columbia crew, using the two EVA suits and others brought by Atlantis, could have been transferred to Atlantis. Columbia would have (presumably) been de-orbited ito the ocean or brought down on autopilot (unlikely).

      Also as CAIB noted, there was PLENTY that could have been done, aside from as one engineer said, "crossing our fingers and hoping for the best." None of it was ever done, however, becuase NASA managers failed to appreciate the possibility of damage to the thermal protection system. Even if it was detected and Atlantis couldn't be launched in time, there were ideas to stuff all sorts of junk (like water-filled bags which would freeze prior to reentry) into the breach in an attempt to fortify the structure just enough to allow for re-entry and bailout (the shuttle needs to be subsonic and in level flight for bailout), even if a landing would be impossible.

      As it is, the wing held together (rather impressively) through most of re-entry and the computers worked like mad to compensate for the asymmetrical drag. Eventually, however, the wing's deformity induced yaw forces that the control surfaces and steering rockets could not compensate for - when Columbia lost this tug of war, the left wing dropped, the nose swung hard to the left (relative to the path of travel) in a "skid" -all adding up to a very bad day at hypersonic speeds.

      To say that there was "nothing" NASA could have done (had they appreciated the extent of the damage) is just not true.

      --
      Bush Lies On the Record.
  4. Looks Like NASA Admin. O'Keefe Engineered This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Reading between the lines, it looks like NASA Chief Administrator Sean O'Keefe fired the safety board because it was ineffective at stopping him and his management team from crushing attempts by engineers to put safety first, amd now he's making the safety board the fall guys in the Columbia Tragedy.

    This from the guy who, barely hours after the accident, with astronauts' bodies still smoldering in half a dozen states, announced that he was forming an "independent" review board, under his terms, subject to his time frame, and under his budget control.

    When Congress talks about the "NASA Culture", the finger is clearly pointing in his direction. O'Keefe should have resigned ages ago.

    1. Re:Looks Like NASA Admin. O'Keefe Engineered This by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful
      When Congress talks about the "NASA Culture", the finger is clearly pointing in his direction. O'Keefe should have resigned ages ago.
      Right. A guy that's barely been in office two years is responsible for things whose roots stretch back over a decade.

      Can you 'knee-jerk'?
  5. Will it do any good ? by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Safety officers in general are expected to make hard decisions and take hard and unpopular stands, theyre not supposed to coast through their tenure hoping nothing bad happens. That said you have to ask will this do any good.

    The report on the shuttle disaster cited cultural problems at NASA. I don't see how changing 9 faces at the top will change the culture. What NASA could probably use isn't just a few sacrificial lambs at the top but someone to go through the agency and decimate its ranks. This is a life and death matter for the people that ride pillars of fire into the sky, it should be for those on the ground as well.

    1. Re:Will it do any good ? by Drakin · · Score: 1

      It's not. It looks like the Senate Appropriations Committee blames them, when they don't have the influence that they should.

    2. Re:Will it do any good ? by AntDaniel · · Score: 1

      Firstly it's not 9 faces at the top, it's the Advisary board which is independant. Actually it looks like a good move. My disolving the board NASA and govenment can change the authority and responsability of the board without having to pander to people already inplace. And when done the board can be reformed with members better suited to it's revised role.

    3. Re:Will it do any good ? by applemasker · · Score: 1
      My understanding is that this Advisory Board was (or had become) a bunch of managers who were afraid of making anything more than "recommendations." For example, they recommened a full-envelope crew escape system, an idea which has been considered and shelved as too costly and heavy for the shuttles.

      Beyond things like that, they would never issue a "No go" edict (particulaly with the Administrator and the ISS Schedule hovering over them) and risk their careers.

      This Board should be dissolved, and replaced with an independent oversight board which answers to no one (execpt perhaps Congress, but certainly not the Administrator) which must clear each and every launch according to strict, non-waivable criteria.

      --
      Bush Lies On the Record.
  6. challenger statistics by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Morton Thiokol presentations regarding the O-rings were utter crap. Edward Tufte has an excellent deconstruction of their major slides, and shows how little information they contiained. He redrew the graphs, and showed that it was almost certain that the rings would fail at the Challenger's launch temperature.

    The link I gave is just a summary & leaves out some parts - the original graph was organized by serial number, not launch temperature, and is filled with cutesy pictures of rockets (chartjunk in Tufte terminology). The new graph shows temperature vs. problems-found-on-recovered-orings. The Challengetr's launch temperature, 40 degrees F, is highlighted at the left of the graph, showing how different this one was versus all others.

    The book has a much better presentation, and it's an excellent excellent book. This example is something that I think back to when I make any presentation ... a good chart could have saved lives.

    1. Re:challenger statistics by PD · · Score: 1

      I find it curious that the web page slams presentations that are made in a form that is unclear, but the web page saw fit to produce their presentation slides in a tiny size that is completely unreadable on my 19 inch LCD screen.

    2. Re:challenger statistics by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      Good catch. It isn't Tufte's web page, but Tog should have caught it, too. Tufte's book is coffeetable-sized, and it's all very big and very clear.

    3. Re:challenger statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I wouldn't consider that a "good catch" at all. Font size is generally something that the end user has full control over. Sure font size, foundry and layout are all part of "graphical excellence" but that was not the main point of the O-ring chart analysis.

      Font sizes are much more about individual user preference. Quit splitting hairs and press Ctrl + Plus.

    4. Re:challenger statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The font size looks fine on my machine; it was the pictures that I took issue with - they are shrunk down so much that the title is barely readable, and you can't tell that there are even temperatures and serial numbers on the original charts. It's a resolution thing, not a size thing - there just aren't enough pixels.

      ps. I'm talking about the presentation on Tog's website, not the original material -- the originals were overhead slides, so the user didn't have any control of sizes.

    5. Re:challenger statistics by cev · · Score: 1

      Edward Tufte might be great at "envisioning information," but he's no statistician. His plot contains as much misleading information as Tiokol's graph contained hidden information.

      Here's why: That pretty curve-fit line in Tufte's graph is crap. It is based on an incredibly small number of samples, especially at lower temperatures. The curve fit is completely useless unless it is presented with error bars. Furthermore, the curve fit is misleading since attracts the eye and leads attention away from the factual data.

      Look at the "real" data points, without being distracted by the pretty line. Without the line, the graph illustrates the problem very well- the challenger launch was much colder than any other previous attempt, and the launches at colder temperatures indicate that o-ring failure was a problem at such a cold temperature.

      CV

  7. It seems to me... by HotNeedleOfInquiry · · Score: 0, Redundant

    They did the only honorable thing.

    --
    "Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
  8. NASA = Need Another Nine Advisors? by quinkin · · Score: 1
    Not to paraphrase politically incorrect humour from the eighties... but...

    NASA = Need Another Nine Advisors?

    Q.

    --
    Insert Signature Here
    1. Re:NASA = Need Another Nine Advisors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Need Another N ine Advisors? NA S A? Do you see the mis-match here?

      Maybe, Need Another Safety Administration, but come on man, think! Besides, the panel was eleven advisors, not nine.

  9. FFS... by quinkin · · Score: 1
    FFS... I'm going to rename myself TrollDoll...

    Do you see the word "paraphrase"? Do you understand the old joke I am referring too? Do not assume others are as stupid as yourself...

    For people who get my comedic reference (including the intentional mis-spelling) - I hope they are mildly amused.

    You I couldn't care less about, 'tard. Oh and only nine were permanents, the other two were consultants - "Do you see the mis-match here?"

    Q. the TrollDoll

    --
    Insert Signature Here
    1. Re:FFS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If the mis-spelling was intentional, then you apparently don't understand much about humor. The whole substance of the original joke is the spelling. If you are going to re-tell the joke in an altered form (note, this is not paraphrasing it, you dolt, as to paraphrase means to restate something generally in another form for clarity, but to keep the original meaning intact.) you have to at least keep the original intent of the joke intact. Yes, that would include the play on (and include all) the NASA letters.

      Don't give up your day job to be a comedian.

      To answer your questions, I do see your new "joke," and I even see the "paraphrase" (and, I might add, I even know what the word means), but I also see that I was correct in assuming that some others are at least as stupid as myself (and evidently I can't hold a candle to some others). I bet you are one of those who use "ironic" to mean just about anything as well.

      I wouldn't give up your day job to be a lexicographer either.

      Now that I'm on a roll here, lets go for the third strike. The panel is 11 people, 9 are appointed to six year terms, the other 2 (in this case) consultants appointed by request of the other 9 to serve as long as needed, but no longer than 1 year. Nobody is "permanent" unless you want to count the Associate Administrator for Safety and Mission Assurance who participates as an ex-officio member. The consultants have the same acting priviledges as the other 9, but they just have shorter terms. Now for the math lesson: 9 plus 2 = 11! Yea!

      At this point, Bubba, you got to ask yourself, "Do you see the mis-match here?"

      Your little reply was cute, but if you want to play with the big boys, at least get one of your statements correct.

    2. Re:FFS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hey TrollDoll, pointing out errors does not make one a troll. Posting inflammatory attacks such as yours does.

      Looks like the pot and the kettle situation here.

      Troll.

  10. Pass the parcel by Nyphur · · Score: 2, Interesting

    NASA have been playing pass the parcel with the blame for a while, referring accident reports and probability assessments of things going wrong from one committee, to a sub-committee to the next committee and to independant researchers in order to try to prove that their incompetance was not the cause of any wrongdoings. So far, their attempts to blame the government of the USA for causing safety problems by underfunding the project and pressing for results too soon, just so that they could have something to their name (much like the first man on the moon thing) have failed. The US Government will never accept that they were the cause of any safety issues, directly or indirectly, and I can say with complete certainty that the citizens of that huge country won't see how underfunding and budget cuts can lead to problems with safety.

    "Safety First, as it seems," applies only when it's affordable to do so.

    They need to make sure that word gets around that a certain believable group of people to take the blame, and of course, having exhausted all other options and O'Keefe wanting to keep his nice highly paid job, there was but one option... Go back and admit that it was their Safety Advisory Council's incompetance which caused the problems in safety. The Council would obviously be reluctant to admit that it was their fault and as such never have, but I belive O'Keefe has used this opportunity to bolster the group into resignation, hinting at the possiblity of them having been the cause. This is further indicated by the fact that strong review is going into the old council's contract and practices.

    Of course, the press release only says that they are resigning, not what from. They mya still be employees of NASA but be resigning from their post on the Council in order that after review, perhaps another be set up that is mroe to O'Keefe's liking. Motives, I am unsure of, but it seems that the council did have problems in putting safety before cost consideration of the dafety procedure implementation. Perhaps a new council who are more willing to conisder the issue of safety as of the utmost importance could help, but only after stringent review of the practices, methods and objectives of the old Council.

    --
  11. Ex-Panel Members Blast Congress, NASA by applemasker · · Score: 1
    For anyone still following this thread, the Washington Post reports today that the ex-panel members fault Congress for inadequately funding NASA and NASA itself for sweeping their recommendations under the rug. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A408 70-2003Oct3.html

    Particularly scathing is the following: "'Rather than committing to an adequate budget for the space shuttle, NASA and its congressional allies found it easier to get rid of those raising the alarm,' the former panel members said in a statement provided to The Washington Post."

    Given the disclosures to date about NASA management, it is not surprising at all that they decided to squelch the messengers; just like they did the engineers who wanted on-orbit imagery during the mission. Mere resignations or re-assignments seem inadequate.

    --
    Bush Lies On the Record.