Slashdot Mirror
Recommendations for RPN Calculators?
sg3000 asks: "My trusty old HP 48S graphing calculator, that served me since engineering school, seems to be giving up the ghost. I haven't used it in a few years, but recently I put new batteries in it. It works, but it makes a loud static/white noise sound when it's on. The noise is not as noticeable when I hold it, but when I set it down on a hard surface, it's really loud. Then it sucks the batteries down incredibly fast (I put new batteries in it, and two days later, they were drained). Any suggestions on what I should buy as a replacement?"
"I'm in graduate school now, and since I'm taking an accounting course, where they don't want us digging out our laptops during a test, I need to buy another calculator. I'm a big fan of reverse polish notation (RPN), so I'd prefer to get another HP calculator.
Do companies still make calculators? I'd love to get another HP 48, but I'm not even sure if HP even makes calculators like that any longer -- on their web site, they're all cheapo-looking single line deals. I've read about something called an HP 48g, but HP has nothing about it on their web site."
Why does HP's current calculator lineup suck?
just change it to silent mode
New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
I have the HP48GX - it's a great calculator, but slow as molasses. According to this page HP will be releasing the 49G Real Soon Now(tm). I'll believe it when I see it, of course, but we can dream, right?
I have a HP 48GX and love it. If you can find one, get one.
I also wrote a GTK based one:
ghsilop.
Sounds like its power supply inverter is toast. Rip it apart, trace down the IC that is making all the noise (or look for a small IC mounted xformer near on IC) and do some home work. Replace what makes noise and what ic is a PWM if it has one, unless its home brew PWM inversion and learn.
It depends on how much money you have, really. I've had great results with my TI-89- it's a calculus student's best friend. The only problem is, it costs about US $120 (at least mine did about 8 months ago). Visit http://education.ti.com/us/product/graphing.html for TI calculators. Better yet, go to http://www.graphingcalculators.net/ before it gets /.ed.
"73% of quotes on the Internet are made up" -Ben Franklin
HP has begun producing new calculators with the Hp49G+ just released. Features include: 75Mhz processor, USB cable, IrDa, SD flash card support Here is a link to pictures, etc of the new hp line. http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49gplus.php I'm looking forward to getting the Hp49G+ and hp33s. Hope that helps!
Why exactly is it "Polish"
It's not! it's RPN, so it's everything except Polish.
It's a Norwegien fisherman, a bannana, and a communicable disease, but it's NOT "Polish".
--I don't want the world, I just want your half.
Wow, I was pretty sure RPN was something my data structures prof made up when he was introducing the concept of stacks.
My friend recently got a TI-89 and, while it's not an HP, it is able to download programs from the computer. He was able to download an RPN shell and he loves it. Of course, we are both high school seniors, so he gets bored. Since he doesn't have any games on there, he winds up putting in random equations and having it solve for x. Last time, it took the calculator about a day of computing and it would have taken more had the batteries not run out.
The RPNs worth buying are:
16C - awesome calculator for programmers, especially embedded work. There is no better number system converter available at any price. No I can't do bin/dec/hex in my head faster than the 16C and neither can you. Expensive due to relatively low numbers produced.
42S - pricey, even used, but excellent. Two line display, a replacement for the 15C.
32SII - somewhat like a 42S but with single line display, not so nice to use.
15C - same form factor as 16C. At the time HP's top scientific.
11C - a simpler 15C
10C - a simpler 11C
All the above have solid old-HP build quality, excellent key feel and outstanding battery life.
Older HPs are also usable (and may be preferred) - but they have even greater collector status and sometimes fetch higher prices. They will go through batteries faster and the red LEDs can be harder to see.
Forget the 48 models, the 49 and all the new stuff. The 48GX is OK if you have to have graphing but the single and dual-line models have better UI for daily use. The 49? HP died when Carly took over. Now they make pretty colored plastic boxes that only work with windows and they have forgotten how to spell "engineering". In fact they fired all the engineers and HP is now run by MBAs in shiny suits.
(I own 16C, 42s, 15C and 11C models.)
If you have a PalmPilot, you might consider RPN. Given your stated requirements, it may not be powerful enough, but it's served me well.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
This sounds like subharmonic oscillation in the inductor core used in the DC-DC converter. Pop it open, find the inductor, and replace it - thing should be good as new.
Check out this website here to find out what RPN really is.
I hope when he wrote- "Do companies still make calculators?", he meant 'still make RPN calculators.'
I use the HP48 software emulator on my pc. I don't need a portable calculator, so I leave my old hp48sx in my closet. The emulator has a gui with all of the buttons that the physical calculator has. Just do a google search on "hp48 emulator" and you can find a download for your os. By the way, legally you need a physical calculator to use the emulator rom. No batteries required.
...because they come with indemnification.
FYI, if you want to use your new calc on a PE exam, read this and this first. Basically, all calcs from the HP-48G/49G series are banned as of next April. I'm glad I already got my PE; I would hate to take it without RPN...
I find it hard and annoying to use "regular" calculators now. I have been using my HP 48SX for almost ten years now and it still runs like a charm!!!! BTW, HP has revived their calc division. See www.hpcalc.org for details. They have a line of new calculators on the way too!!!
Mecworks BLOG
I have both a 48G and a 49G. I keep the 48G at work, and bring the 49G around with me to school. While I much prefer the 48G's feel (I can can enter keystrokes on the 48G's quick, plastic keys almost twice as fast than on the 49G's hard-to-press rubber keys), I use the 49G exclusively for schoolwork due to it's vastly improved equation editing, algebraic manipulation, calculus handling and unit conversion. The 49G is much better in this regard.
In the end, it really depends on what you'll be using it for. If you're not going to be doing calculations involving more complex equations (especially calculus or variable isolation involving many instances of the variable -- the 49G beats the 48G hands down here), the 48G (or 48GX) is probably best. Since you've gotten along with your 48S this long, the 49G is probably overkill.
HP will also be releasing a few new calculators soon, including a 48GII & a 49G+. Hopefully they will address the 49G's horrible key action!
"Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion." - Democritus
Prefering something doesn't make you stupid. Ignorance of the single most important feature that the author asked for does. This is like the car dealer hearing you need four-wheel drive and a V8 and suggesting you get a sports car. Both good, but one is nothing at all like what you wanted.
Depending on how hard you work your calculator, you might do better to get a PDA and run a calculator program on it. If you bang on your calculator keys for hours, get a real calculator.
I use Palm PDAs (my current one is a Tungsten T) and I run a program called RPN on it. It's programmable and it has graphing, but I haven't used those features; but as a general-purpose RPN calculator, it's kept me happy.
What I really want is something similar to Palm RPN that is programmable in Python.
Anyway, the best thing about this is that I always have it with me. I used to have an HP calculator, but it was never handy when I wanted it.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Emulation of the HP 48SX, 48GX and 49G is here and it's free. Best with a very hi-res device though
http://power48.mobilevoodoo.com/
Do you need a graphing calculator? If not go for HP's 32SII. I have one that I carry pretty much everywhere with me (my 48GX is a bit bulky and usually overkill).
On the other hand if you need to be able to graph get a HP 48G or 48GX. The GX is expandable but in my experience most people never end up using the expansion packs. Also HP is scheduled to release their new 49G+. Don't let the name fool you though. It is more like a 48 then a 49. None of thoes crappy soft-touch rubber buttons. Also it is based on some ARM processor that will be *much* faster then the 48s and 49.
What ever you do, stay HP. HP builds the best damn calculators on the market.
I'm afraid you're out of luck if you're looking for a new HP graphing calc. The HP32SII is nice, and there are still some sources around the internet (Amazon used to carry them), but it doesn't graph. The TI-83+ isn't a bad graphing calc, especially if you install this,
a slick RPN emulator...it preserves all the functionality of the TI-83+ while giving you the standard 4-register stack-based RPN functionality.
Contrary to what others here (your usual /. cranks with rose-colored nostalgic memories of ancient hardware) may tell you, the 49G is a great calculator despite the flaws in the design of the keys and display as well as the "new-wave" case. However, don't run out and buy a 49G now; HP is finally gearing up to release new calcs: the 49G+ and 48gII replace the aging Saturn processor (2-4 mhz, I forget what the process was but it probably was 3 microns or so) of older HP's like the 48S/SX/G/G+/GX and 49G with an ARM9 processor (48-75 mhz, probably a .18 micron process). (I think the ARM9 doesn't do quite as many IPC as the Saturn, and low-level saturn emulation will give some performance penalty, but still, this is going to be a lot faster- hpcalc.org just states it will be 3-7 times faster than the 49G, that's a pretty wide range). In addition, they appear to have fixed many of the case/key/display problems which plagued the 49G, and battery life should be about the same as it was for the earlier 48/49 series. I have absolutely no doubt that the new calcs will be fantastic deals.
Or just get yourself a PDA running version 5 of PalmOS (lower versions are supported for certain PDAs) and use an emulator to turn the PDA into your old HP48S.
:(
The emulator seems to get good reviews. Unfortunately it doesn't run on my Treo 90.
I'm an old time HP calc user (still have my trusty 12C (which is still running on original batteries!) and my 48G) I first fell in love with them back when I was in high school and a friend of the family brought his old (pocket size LED display model, not sure which) HP over and taught me how to use it.
I recently got a Palm OS device I can use, a Treo 300 (I'm Graffiti-challenged - way to sloppy a handwriter to ever train myself to make the symbols consistently enough) and have been looking around for a good RPN calculator for it. So far I'm using RPN, a simple RPN calc released freely under the GPL, but I've also discovered another one that I'm tempted to check out even though it's probably way more than I actually need these days. From the sound of it, if this calc is all it claims to be, it may be exactly what the poster was looking for (if he/she has a Palm device). There are also several other versions for whatever your needs.
I am not associated with Infinity Softwaorks, the developers of this calculator. In fact I haven't even tried the calculator I mentioned, I just happened to have discovered it recently and thought it was relevant.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
Because it's really efficient to input data and perform operations with RPN, but maintaining an application written in something like forth is difficult.
It's the same reason I live in tcsh, but write all my shell scripts using sh.
-- The world is watching America, and America is watching TV.
I'm in the same boat. I've returned to engineering graduate school after 7 years, and I've found an HP calculator emulator at the following website: http://power48.mobilevoodoo.com/
It works really well. Hope this helps.
Buy new(alkaline) batteries for it. I kid you not, it'll speed it up- if you haven't noticed, performance is noticeably dependent upon battery voltage, and the thing crawls when the batteries get low- possibly on purpose, I dunno.
I've had mine since the early 90's, and I never though of it as slow at anything except menus, graphing, and equation solving. For standard math and even running RPN programs, it's pretty quick- I never felt it was a 'hinderance'.
Please help metamoderate.
Since I use a Dell Axim as my organizer/music/movie player, I carry around emulators for all my favorite old toys. One of them is GNU Emu48CE. It emulates most flavors of HP48, and replaces my need for the built-in calculator or to carry around my beloved HP48GX. In fact, through emulation I have the equivalent of a desk full of equipment with me wherever I go. It's pretty neat, though it runs a Small-and-Flaccid OS.
Reverse Polish Notation?!?!? Why exactly is it "Polish"?
Because a Polish man came up with the idea?
Prefix and Postfix notation were developed in the 1920's by Jan Lukasiewicz (who was, in fact, Polish). Prefix notation was often called Polish Notation in honor of Lukasiewicz.
Postfix turned out to be useful for computer operations, if you made it into a stack and then did operations upon that stack. It was called Reverse Polish Notation, since postfix is the opposite of prefix, and prefix was called Polish Notation.
Simple.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
My "real" first calculator was an RPN one, handed down by my engineer father. That makes me a real geek.
But, anyways, this reminds me of a funny story. I'm sitting in a low-level C++ class, when the teacher decides to show us some Lisp. I found this quite interesting and reminescent of my days with the RPN calculator, so (stupidly) I raised my hands to inquire whether or not the design of Lisp was based on Polish Notation (PN), which would at least cement in my mind how to treat the language.
Teacher: "WHAT! What did you say about Poles?!"
Me: "Polish _Notation_. You know, the mathematical format."
Teacher: "You're making it up!" (at this point, I was fairly stunned)
Me: "It's called that because, theoretically, those Polish mathematicians knew what they were about, you know?"
It was probably the lowest day of my school career. We were getting CS teachers who _didn't know what RPN was_. How embarassing.
As for your calculator, no bloody idea, I just use my TI-83+ whenever the batteries still work.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
Antiquated? You have to be kidding me. I always enjoyed doing group work with people and getting complicated answers in usually no more than half the time of everyone else. RPN is incredibly quicker and easier to use once you step over the learning curve. Anything else is slow and generally error prone.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
I agree that keypresses saved are minimal, if not sometimes nonexistant in simple equations. In fact, for many simple single-operation equations, the process of learning RPN is far too complicated to justify using it at all.
RPN, however, can be likened to the Dvorak keyboard layout. It is entails a slightly involving process to learn. For many purposes, this is simply a pain. The true power only shines in complicated equations, such as those which make use of brackets.
The following equation shall be typed on an algebraic calculator, followed by an RPN calculator. [;] will be the button name for [Enter].
25 ( 46 ) + 254 - 2462 / ( 645 - 2453 )
Algebraic:
25*46+254-2462/(645-2453);
RPN:
25;46*254+2462;645;2453-/-
In the above example, you will realise that the number of keypresses is exactly the same. (In fact, if you cheat and leave out the second bracket on the algebraic calculator, that calculator edges out the RPN by one keystroke!) However, there are three immediate benefits to the RPN calculator:
Over time, the amount of keypresses will not really be changed too drastically. However, the true power is the convenience and the ease of use. Unfortunately, like the Dvorak keyboard, RPN will slowly fade in the non-specialised markets due to the fact that it takes too much time to learn.
And there are many occasions where the graphing functions of my TI have proved useful in the workplace. To name a few:
- being able to view every key I've entered before evaluating the expression
- being able to revise and edit incorrect expressions
- to determine linear regression fits for data sets
- to perform functions like logarithms and square roots on said data sets, in order to linearize them (linearity being checked, of course, by the R^2 correlation of my fit)
- anything at all to do with linear algebra, especially solving systems of equations or matrix manipulations. RREF is a bitch by hand.
For more "pure" math (like Diff. Eq.), I agree that pencil and paper are generally easier. But any applied math (a.k.a. engineering) requires an insane amount of busy work that could not be handled with a puny scientific calculator. I know you said Engineering and Physics are different stories, but everything I just wrote could certainly apply to all sciences (even the "soft" ones like Psych. and Sociology), or anything at all requiring data collection.
For the record, I use a TI-86 daily at a bio-tech job. It has the stats capabilities of the 83, plus all the good parts of the 85.
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
The calculator is slow to respond and update the screen, but it does have a wonderful type-ahead buffer. Once you're confident with the commands (takes time to memorize) and the buttons (their high quality makes it easier to trust), go ahead and type as fast as you want. The calculator will skip screen updates during this time, so you'll get the answer soon after you stop typing.
Once you know that secret, the speed isn't a problem (and I've got a 48S and a 48SX... that's a 1 MHz processor vs. the 2 MHz processor of the G's)
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Agilent got the test and measurement stuff. HP kept the calculators and handheld computers.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
HP's new calculator division is based in San Diego. I was just at the HHC conference this past weekend, and the division director, marketing director, engineering manager, and lead software engineer were there. They seemed to be very concerned about customer feedback and fixing any problems (or perceived problems) with product quality.
Their first new high-end RPN calculator in four years is the HP 49G+, which will be officially announced in the US on October 6. (It's already available in some parts of the world.)
The HP 49G+ has similar capabilities to the HP 49G, but with a larger display (25% more pixels), faster processor (75 MHz ARM), more memory, better keyboard, USB interface, and an SD slot for flash memory expansion.
for my HP 48G. Does anybody have one they'd be willing to unload? Or a .PDF I can grab from somewhere? HP wants $40 for the book, which is ridiculous IMO.
.pdf.
I'll bake ya some bad-ass cookies if you can give me that
I'm also looking for a hard case. I love my 48, and you can pry it from my cold dead hands. Or from my newly distracted hands when I can get a Palm that'll run the emulator. : )
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
For One, I, Overlords RPN welcome our new . . . .
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Looks like you depend on your TI-89 a bit too much.
(b^x)^y = b^(xy)
When you buy a calculator, you aren't just buying a generic handheld computer, you are buying a mathematical software package. I don't know about TI, but HP has invested many years of effort by HP mathematicians and engineers in designing, implementing and testing the software that runs on their calculators. That is what is valuable, not the near-obsolete hardware that the calculator is built from.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
No, it's not a rumour(comp.sys.hp48 is your friend).
:)
Pros:
ARM processor -> better speed
Larger screen
SD slot
USB connection to computer
Seems to be emulating the Saturn, since everything else seems to be pretty much the same.
Cons:
Keyboard not registering EVERY keypress (you have to concentrate on pressing a bit harder than usual, it seems)
Much higher power consumption
Bad SD support - you have to remove and reinsert the card everytime you reboot.
USB connection -> no nice HP48modem, etc, hack
Defaults in algebraic mode, manuals only for algebraic mode.
Still haven't found the way to program the ARM directly.
Many of the cons seem to be solvable with ROM updates, so wait and pray for HP to fix them
Try Corewar @ www.koth.org - rec.games.corewar
Try a Palm Tungsten + Power48, an HP48 emulator for PalmOS 5.
Since you already have a dying HP48, you can probably claim fair use of the HP48 ROM image, although IANAL.
Brits stole our Enigma credit, the French took Maria Sklodowska-Curie so at least let us keep our good ole RPN.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Spend your money on a PalmOS PDA and then get Power 48 which emulates the Saturn CPU and runs the HP calc ROMs, it's free and GPL'ed. Though if you can do with something simplier I've been using RPN as others have said, for years (though it's now $18).
Casio's previous graphing calculators have been somewhat lacking, although I applaud their venture to make a 3-color model! The memory and speed limitations, as well as poor quality display, make the old Casios unusable.
Casio has recently come out with something quite different though...the ClassPad 300. This looks like somewhat of a cross between a PDA and a graphing calc. About half the unit is the very large and high resolution (for a calc) display. Many of the keys were removed and virtualized on the touch-screen, and the unit has a stylus built in like any good PDA. The curious part about this calc is that it does NOT have a built in clock, and therefore can't be used as an organizer!
The TI-89, TI-92+, and TI Voyage 200 all have clock buit in, and TI has recently come out with an organizer/calendar/tasklist/addressbook application to load on it. This is what really got me...all the speed and power of a TI calc, tons of applications, and the one I got...the Voyage 200...has a QWERTY keyboard and enough memory (2.7MB) to hold lots of games/programs. The TI-89, while having the added benefit of compactness (and being allowed on standardized tests) has an ABCDE keyboard going across the rows and is more difficult to enter text on, has less than .8MB of RAM, and about half the pixels of the Voyage 200.
Still, if you need a calc for use on the SATs/ACTs I'd recommend the TI-89, otherwise the TI Voyage 200.
Keep your eye on Casio's ClassPad series, though...I think the next iteration of this calculator could really take off if they listened to some user feedback about key layout and PDA functionality!!
While we're having out the HP vs. TI flame war, let me add my kindling...
I have been a user of the TI-series of graphing calculators since they first came out with the TI-85/TI-82 line when I was in high school. My Physics teacher even did work for TI over the summers testing out their "new-fangled" (back then) IR sensors, radar sensors, and the 'CBL' which was basically a hand-held data collection microcontroller that could feed data directly into the TI calc's. Since then, (and since doing regular physics expirements with those instruments BECAUSE he had TI's backing for testing the instruments) I have always preferred TI. But that's not to say I wouldn't change given a better tool.
I currently have a TI-89, and use it for exactly what you described: checking my "equation set-up" before actually calculating. Seriously, who wants to enter thirteen different phasors in some big long equation and hit simply to find out that they flipped a '+' to '-' accidentally? I'm in school for engineering right now, and working full-time as a business analyst doing statistical analysis all day. Do you think I have time to do all the many calculations I do by hand all the time? NO! I also don't care much to worry about how the answer is found, just that it's right, and with the new TI's and their ability to display the entire equation after you've entered it in what I call "human readable format", I can be assured that I entered the equation correctly.
So for those of you '31337' pencil pushers out there, just realize that some of us are trying to get some REAL WORK done during the day and don't have the time to do it the old-fashioned way. I learned the basics, why waste time using the "old way" to do the math when I've got a better tool for it now?
Also, claiming the HP-48 or whatever is superior because it was the "best" back in it's heyday, is like claiming that "640k is enough RAM for ANYBODY!" Get with the times and use the best tool out there. Quit arguing about the brand name.
You could at least try opening it up to see if there's big (relative to the rest) "can" capacitors (not sure of the proper english term, sorry :-) They often feature in the 100+ uF range.
When they dry out they often (but not always) start looking like they're about to explode (which they sometimes do). And best of all - if the solution is that simple it will probably cost you $2 in parts and a few minutes with a soldering iron.