Sony Lose Out - PS2 Not a Personal Computer?

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Sony Lose Out - PS2 Not a Personal Computer?

Posted by simoniker on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @11:59PM from the those-crazy-europeans dept.

Thanks to the UK Guardian for their article discussing Sony's failed attempt to get the PlayStation 2 classified as a personal computer in Europe, for customs reasons. The piece explains: "Sony was not splitting hairs for the sake of hair-splitting; its motives were purely mercenary. The import tariff for computers coming into the European Union is much lower than that for games consoles and a ruling that the PlayStation 2 was a computer could have forced customs authorities to pay back millions in duties." Although the battle is becoming less important, as from January 1st, 2004 "...computers and games consoles will be allowed into the EU at zero tariff", the legal distinction is still interesting - the European court in Luxembourg ruled "...the definition of a computer could not be stretched" because "It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games."

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now i wonder what the judge really said by Wonda · 2003-10-01 00:13 · Score: 1

Because this dutch article says sony won: http://www.automatiseringsgids.nl/news/default.asp ?nwsId=24072
1. Re:now i wonder what the judge really said by Wonda · 2003-10-01 00:17 · Score: 1
  
  and in english there is this article as well http://pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1652243086& fp=2&fpid=1
2. Re:now i wonder what the judge really said by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-01 00:22 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  It was a mistake from a spokesperson, apparently. See here.
  
  --
  Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
3. Re:now i wonder what the judge really said by GigsVT · 2003-10-01 00:23 · Score: 1
  
  That article is from January, the one in the story is from yesterday. Looks like they were overturned.
  
  --
  I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
4. Re:now i wonder what the judge really said by Lars+T. · 2003-10-01 02:55 · Score: 1
  
  No, its from 1st of October. Damned mixed date formats.
  
  --
  Lars T.
  To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
5. Re:now i wonder what the judge really said by GigsVT · 2003-10-01 05:06 · Score: 1
  
  Doh, you are right. Everyone should just use ISO and get it over with. Even here in hickville, VA USA, I put ISO date formats throughout my company's web app, and no one seems confused.
  
  --
  I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
6. Re:now i wonder what the judge really said by gelzi · 2003-10-01 05:33 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know where the inquirer has their information from, but looking at the judgement (you can search for case number T-243/01 at http://www.curia.eu.int/jurisp/cgi-bin/form.pl?lan g=en ), Sony actually won that thing. So a PS2 *is* a computer.
I read slashdot for cutting edge tech news by gazbo · 2003-10-01 00:13 · Score: 3, Funny

Such as this revelation that the PS2 is primarily inteded for games use.
1. Re:I read slashdot for cutting edge tech news by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 01:45 · Score: 0
  
  But why is the PS2 referred to as a "Class B Computing Device" under the FCC Rules? *meow?*
Poor argument by Enfors · 2003-10-01 00:13 · Score: 1

"It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games."

Well, so are many computers... so I don't really see the relevance of trying to point that out as a distinction between consoles and computers. That doesn't mean I think of the PS2 as a computer though, only that I think that argument is a bit flawed.

--
-Enfors-
1. Re:Poor argument by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-01 00:25 · Score: 1
  
  How exactly is the argument flawed? A computer, it can be argued, has tools to do wordprocessing, programming, video editing, etc. You can work on it and, indeed, that's what most people do. A PS2, however, has absolutely no chance of being seen as a computer since the only thing it can do is play games. Only with the Linux kit does it become something resembling a PC, but still it does not come as standard (thank the Lord), there is no argument here.
  
  --
  Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
2. Re:Poor argument by AllUsernamesAreGone · 2003-10-01 00:33 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Umm.. you can get a keyboard and mouse for it, you can use it for other things than games, internally it shares many concepts with a conventional computer. IMO a console is a computer even without this, in that it does what a computer does - it computes. It doesn't matter that, out of the box, it doesn't balance your books and write documents - it is as much a glorified calculator with fancy IO as the boxes sat around me at the moment. With the additional capabilities of the linux kit, exactly why is it not a "real" computer?
3. Re:Poor argument by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-01 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  Excuse me, but I don't feel like going into a fruitless argument just for the sake of it. Could you please point me to an actual thing that you can do with a non-modded PS2 other than playing games? Because I certainly cannot think of any.
  
  --
  Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
4. Re:Poor argument by Enfors · 2003-10-01 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  How the argument is flawed? The argument isn't about what computers and PS2s can be used for, it's about what it is intended mainly to be used for. The PS2 is mainly intended for games. So are many computers. The potential uses (word processing, etc) is not the issue.
  
  --
  -Enfors-
5. Re:Poor argument by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-01 00:46 · Score: 1
  
  You are replying to the wrong guy, mate. I agree with you, obviously.
  
  --
  Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
6. Re:Poor argument by AllUsernamesAreGone · 2003-10-01 00:47 · Score: 1
  
  Play music and watch DVDs spring readily to mind...
7. Re:Poor argument by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-01 00:51 · Score: 1
  
  Well, a CD player plays music. A DVD player plays DVDs. There are computers without CD or DVD players. What is your point?
  
  --
  Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
8. Re:Poor argument by AllUsernamesAreGone · 2003-10-01 01:08 · Score: 1
  
  The point was answering your question "Could you please point me to an actual thing that you can do with a non-modded PS2 other than playing games?". And I have a feeling you're being awkward just for the sake of it. As far as I can see, there is nothing from a hardware point of view that exempts a playstation from being classified as a computer. Sure, it's not a desktop PC, but it is still a computing machine.
9. Re:Poor argument by PainKilleR-CE · 2003-10-01 01:24 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  heh, I think he replied to the right person, and disagrees with your statement ;)
  
  A computer (say, for instance, every computer I've ever built for my home, except for one I built from the spare parts) can be built specifically to play games. It may be capable of performing other functions, and may even be used for performing other functions, but the purpose of the computer itself is to play games. Just because I can do word processing on it doesn't mean it's less of a game machine than my PS2, XBox, GameCube, and DreamCast (in fact, I have far more games for my PC than for these 4 systems combined).
  
  On the other hand, the PS2 is mainly intended for playing games in all cases, but also plays DVDs and CDs as primary functions. With the addition of a couple minor pieces of hardware (and some software installed on the hard drive that is one of those pieces of hardware) the PS2 becomes a computer with all of those other functions.
  
  With a PC I have to add a good graphics card for it to be a gaming machine (and that graphics card can cost more than any current console). With a PS2 I have to add a hard drive (which really isn't much, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone could get a stripped down Linux or *BSD install that didn't require the hard drive). The XBox IS a Windows-based PC, with a stripped down version of Windows that only performs a minor subset of functions (WMA conversion of CD audio (and storage/playback of WMA files), plays licensed games, plays DVDs with the right hardware). A minor change to allow it to run unlicensed software allows it to run a full-blown OS just like any PC that you could buy with similar specs at the time the XBox came out (which actually would've been a low-end processor, high-end video card, and minimal amount of RAM).
  
  With the XBox based on an x86 processor and the Cube based on PPC architecture, the distinction is really getting to be pointless. It's not a matter of what the hardware is any more, it's a matter of what you do with it, and, as the article stated, the distinction is no longer going to matter next year (at least in the EU).
  
  --
  -PainKilleR-[CE]
10. Re:Poor argument by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-01 01:26 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, Jesus Christ. How does playing a CD or a DVD make the PS2 into a PC? If anything, it makes it into an entertainment system which, although interesting, is completely nothing like a PC. EU regulations are there not to screw the gaming public, as you might think, but rather to benefit the computer buying public. Sony have been trying to use a loophole in a law that is clear as hell by resorting to shenanigans such as bundling a version of BASIC with the PS2 and the whole Linux thing. The fact is that the PS2 is, for 99.9% of the people out there, a gaming machine, and it would be stupid not to tax it as such. I'm not being "awkward", instead I'm engaged in what seems like a futile attempt to show that your arguments are not only irrelevant but, also, have no foundation. Unfortunately, I'm not succeding.
  
  --
  Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
11. Re:Poor argument by fireduck · 2003-10-01 01:33 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  a PS2 is not a computer in the same way that fertilizer is not classified as a class 5 explosive. The PS2 is intended as a game machine. Sony does not advertise the PS2 as a computer, in the same way that Bandini does not advertise how their product can be "modded" for terrorist purposes. Sure, they may have a linux kit, but have you ever seen a commercial advertisement, where they make the claim that you can do any of the conventional tasks associated with computers, other than playing games?
12. Re:Poor argument by PainKilleR-CE · 2003-10-01 01:47 · Score: 1
  
  blah, never mind, my first sentence is incorrect, I misread...
  
  Now I get to wait for the posting requirements to finish up.
  
  la de da de la
  
  --
  -PainKilleR-[CE]
13. Re:Poor argument by mikiN · 2003-10-01 01:52 · Score: 1
  
  Just imagine a Beowulf cluster of them!
  Scientists at the NCSA are actually trying to turn a bunch of PS2's into a supercomputer.
  They are using the Sony's Linux Kit, so they probably need few if any mods to the PS2's.
  
  --
  The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
14. Re:Poor argument by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 01:53 · Score: 0
  
  What about SCE or SCEA? (Sony COMPUTER Entertainment America) Look at a PS2 box, the Playstation2 COMPUTER Entertainment System.
  
  A computer doesn't need to do all the things a current desktop does to be classified as such. It was mentioned that computers can word process and do video editing. I'm pretty sure my old 286 isn't capable of the latter, but it's still a computer. How about an original Apple machine? It can do almost none of what a current desktop or laptop PC can do, but it's still a computer. The Playstation 2 is a computer that plays video games as it's primary function, but not it's ONLY purpose. What about an XBOX? Tell me that's not a computer..or tell that to the XBOX Linux crowd.
15. Re:Poor argument by kabocox · 2003-10-01 01:53 · Score: 1
  
  exactly why is it not a "real" computer?
  
  2 Words Politics and Taxes.
16. Re:Poor argument by addaon · 2003-10-01 03:56 · Score: 1
  
  Look, troll. They're not saying that it's not a computer. They're saying that it's not a computer FOR TAX PURPOSES. The duty system apparently makes a distinction between entertainment systems and personal computer systems, and defines each by it's primary usage. So it is not a computer, for tax purposes. End of story.
  
  --
  
  I've had this sig for three days.
17. Re:Poor argument by Derkec · 2003-10-01 06:11 · Score: 1
  
  This is all well and good but if you are going to have differant tarrifs for game consoles and personal computers, I think it is quite obvious which category the PS2 is more appropriate in.
  
  The PS2 is console.
  
  You can argue that it can have properties associated with computers, and computers can be made to be like a console, but that doesn't change prima facia case.
  
  Sometimes the obvious answer is the right one. This is one of those circumstances.
  
  You are right that consoles are turning into highly specialized computers and the destinction is blurring rapidly. My arguement is based on "if you have differant tariffs..." More approiately, we can decide that we shouldn't have differant tariffs because of the blurring that has been discussed here in absurd depth.
18. Re:Poor argument by PainKilleR-CE · 2003-10-01 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  More approiately, we can decide that we shouldn't have differant tariffs because of the blurring that has been discussed here in absurd depth.
  
  Exactly. And, in most cases, this is becoming the case. When it comes down to it, Sony made a big deal about export restrictions on the PS2 from Japan's side of things, and now has made a big deal about import tariffs on Europe's side. Overall, it's really about getting some press and trying to reduce the fees they have to pay to ship the thing around the world.
  
  Of course, even if they didn't have to pay the tariffs, it's unlikely they'd pass much of the savings onto the consumer, unless/until they had to do it to meet a certain price point (assuming they actually have some competition some day).
  
  --
  -PainKilleR-[CE]
19. Re:Poor argument by Alizarin+Erythrosin · 2003-10-01 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  With the additional capabilities of the linux kit, exactly why is it not a "real" computer?
  
  When I was at Best Buy on Sunday, I didn't see the PS2 Linux kit on any shelves. What I did see was 3 aisles of various genres of games for the PS2. And a few types of DVD remotes.
  
  --
  There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
20. Re:Poor argument by harrkev · 2003-10-01 08:16 · Score: 1
  
  Just imagine????
  
  I only have two hands! I cannot imagine more than two of them -- unless I can figure out how to use a controller with other appendages -- then, I could use up to 5 of them!
  
  --
  "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
21. Re:Poor argument by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 08:30 · Score: 0
  
  My Tuition Money At Work.
22. Re:Poor argument by NanoGator · 2003-10-01 09:52 · Score: 1
  
  "With the additional capabilities of the linux kit, exactly why is it not a "real" computer?"
  
  A computer is a generalized device meant to perform a number of tasks. A Playstation is a device custom built to play games. Get enough of the customers out there to use it as more than a game machine, and we'll have this discussion again.
  
  --
  "Derp de derp."
The Real Reason for Linux on the PS2 by Zarf · 2003-10-01 00:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

Now you know the real reason that Sony was selling Linux kits for the PS2. If what was at stake was enough money for them to mess with this bickering match ... then who cares about a few Linux hackers? If someone can convince the XBox people at MicroSoft that such a case is winnable you'll see an XBox distro of Linux or some other OS for the XBox too to prove the point.

--
[signature]
1. Re:The Real Reason for Linux on the PS2 by zudo · 2003-10-01 00:50 · Score: 1
  
  Right! Kind of...
  
  Actually Sony put a copy of YaBASIC on the demo disc that came with the ps2 in Europe (when it was first launched, dunno if they still do) and many speculated that they did so to back up their claim that the ps2 is a computer.
2. Re:The Real Reason for Linux on the PS2 by sehryan · 2003-10-01 02:25 · Score: 1
  
  ...you'll see an XBox distro of Linux or some other OS...
  
  Somehow I think Microsoft would go with putting Windows on their own hardware before linux. Just a thought.
  
  --
  The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
3. Re:The Real Reason for Linux on the PS2 by n0wak · 2003-10-01 06:12 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  If you actually read the post, you'd have seen:
  Although the battle is becoming less important, as from January 1st, 2004 "...computers and games consoles will be allowed into the EU at zero tariff"
  
  So it doesn't matter if the case is "winnable", as that whole distinction is now becoming irrelevent. The only case possible is to make the ruling retroactive, so you get a refund so to speak... but that seems unnecessary.
4. Re:The Real Reason for Linux on the PS2 by Kris_J · 2003-10-01 13:20 · Score: 1
  
  They should bundle it. A Linux kit plus the Open Office suite and Mozilla would make it more of a personal computer than the C64 or Atari 8-bits ever were.
Understandable in some ways by Bagels · 2003-10-01 00:42 · Score: 1

The PS2 is primarily a gaming machine. I can see why one might start to think of a PS2 as a full-fledged computer, though - with games like FFXI, it's starting to move more towards the components that a traditional computer would have (keyboard, mouse, hard drive, even an internet connection). Until there are general-purpose applications (y'know, word processors, net browsers, etc.) for the PS2, though, it shouldn't be considered a PC.

--
--- Bwah?
hmm... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 00:54 · Score: 0

Isn't the phrase "splitting heirs" rather than hairs?
1. Re:hmm... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 01:13 · Score: 0
  
  Isn't the phrase "splitting heirs" rather than hairs?
  
  No, that's the film.
No. [nt] by gazbo · 2003-10-01 00:58 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I said nt.
Let's See all they need to do is bundle OO :) by kabocox · 2003-10-01 01:08 · Score: 1

Work arounds... If I was losing millions in Taxes, I'd find a way around it. I'd start to bundle an Open Office or similiar office software. I'd also put slots for my Sony Memory Sticks on the "New Eurporan Version" so that they'd be able to save more than 8 mb. Let's see they could get with lexmark and make a P2 Printer. They'd have it made.
1. Re:Let's See all they need to do is bundle OO :) by Yaztromo · 2003-10-01 04:08 · Score: 1
  Let's see they could get with lexmark and make a P2 Printer.
  
  It's already been done -- at least in Japan. An inkjet printer called the "Pop Egg" was released there some time ago. As well, there are several photo printers for the PS2 on the market:
  
  http://www.jp.playstation.com/item/4/6149145.html
  
  http://www.jp.playstation.com/item/4/6149144.html
  
  There's some pretty weird PS2 software out in Japan to take adavantage of these printers :P.
  Yaz.
The PS2 is a computer by Blackknight · 2003-10-01 01:46 · Score: 1

So is the Xbox, Game Cube, and every other game console in existance.

Anything that computes numbers is a computer. Even a freaking abacus is a computer, not an electronic one though.

I think people are confusing the definition of computer, and Personal Computer. They're two entirely different things.
1. Re:The PS2 is a computer by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 02:00 · Score: 0
  
  You put it perfectly. Came up with the words I could not in my post about SCEA. It computes, plain and simple, but it's not a classic PC. Of course, being that I own one and it's a computer, it's my "Personal" Computer, not anyone elses. :)
2. Re:The PS2 is a computer by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 05:10 · Score: 0
  
  Abso-freaking-lutely, you are one of the few, the proud, the informed!
3. Re:The PS2 is a computer by NihilSmurf · 2003-10-01 06:09 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, "personal computer" merely implies something small enough and cheap enough for an individual's personal use (as opposed to a big expensive computer that we have to share).
  
  While it's true that you can use an abacus for computations, it is not normally what people mean when they say "computer". I mean, by that definition, almost anything can be a computer, so the term becomes useless. For example, I can use a pile of rocks to help me count.
  
  Restricting the term to programmable things isn't good enough either. A player piano is programmable (by swapping the rolls), but we wouldn't want to consider it a computer.
  
  An excellent book on the subject is "The First Computers", by Rojas and Hashagen. According to them, a key characteristic of what we really mean by the word "computer" is the ability to make decisions based on the results of its own data manipulation. In other words, can use its own output as input, and it can do branching.
  
  Of course, I totally agree with you that a game console is a computer.
Why Console Prices are so High in Europe. by cdneng2 · 2003-10-01 02:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

Isn't this the reason why game console prices in Europe are so damn high compared to North America? The reason why Sony tried to get the PS2 classified as a computer is to get a lowered duty rate so that they can sell the console at cheaper price.
This isn't any different then plasma computer monitors being MUCH cheaper then plasma TVs. The US charges a higher duty for import items classified as a TV. (My next TV will be plasma, but it will be a computer monitor with RGB and SVideo in.)
1. Re:Why Console Prices are so High in Europe. by pmz · 2003-10-01 07:38 · Score: 1
  
  The US charges a higher duty for import items classified as a TV.
  
  Why? To prop up the already-defunct American TV industry?
  
  --
  Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Poor Sony by Metal_Demon · 2003-10-01 02:37 · Score: 1

Good effort guys /pat Sony. Personally I think Sony should have one, not just because I'm a Sony fanboy either. Personally like somebody else said a computer computes, so does a PS2. The only difference is that a PS2 have very limited use fresh out of the box. Well actually thats not even true because so does a computer until you put an OS and some other software on it (just like the Linux kit for PS2). Besides my computer was designed to be a game console but nobody would argue that it's not still a computer.

--
Trust Your Technolust
Why computers != consoles by shed · 2003-10-01 03:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

Because after all, most people use them for balancing their checkbooks, not playing video games. Uh huh.

I can't wait to get a Radeon 9800 to help me word process at 60 fps. I'll frag clippy yet.

Ok, seriously, does this dutch ruling mean that a computer that is used 99% for gaming is a console, or does the definition have to do with the purpose for which a machine is manufactured? In which case, alienware would have a tariff under the old system, gateway wouldn't? Strange world we're living in.

--
My cat can eat a whole watermelon
Of course it's a computer, AND a gaming console by jgoemat · 2003-10-01 03:23 · Score: 1

A gaming console is a specialized computer designed for gaming. That's readily apparent by the company's advertising and if you open a PS2 box (there's no keyboard or mouse, just a controller designed for playing games). Go to Best Buy and try to find a word processing application for your PS2. Take a poll of PS2 owners to see what percent have installed the Linux kit or have even heard about it. Sure you can play CDs and DVDs, so why not tax it as a DVD player? The company that produces a product shouldn't have discretion to apply the most favorable tax possible, the product should be classified logically.
1. Re:Of course it's a computer, AND a gaming console by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 03:30 · Score: 0
  
  So the fact that a product can run a word processing application makes it a computer? That's a pretty strange way of classifying things. The earliest computers, by your classification, wouldn't be computers at all. The fact is that the EU shouldn't have different tax rates for computers and gaming consoles because they're the same thing.
2. Re:Of course it's a computer, AND a gaming console by DWormed · 2003-10-01 04:38 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  The problem _is_ the logical classification. At what point in functionality does it become a "computer". Intent has nothing to do with it; a product is what it is. Where do you draw the line?
  
  --
  Dependable, Reliable Furnishings
3. Re:Of course it's a computer, AND a gaming console by jgoemat · 2003-10-02 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  I didn't mean "logically" as in an overall accepted way of viewing things that anyone should understand, but logically as the tariff laws are written. A gaming console is just a specialized computer. By seeing that there is one tariff rate for personal computers and a higher rate for gaming consoles, I would conclude that an exception was made for gaming consoles and that the higher rate should be applied if a product can be classified as a gaming console.
  Now looking at the PS2, it's easy to see that it is designed as a gaming console. The primary input method is by a controller that is designed for playing games. It is hard to find a piece of software for the PS2 that is not a game (are there any except for the linux kit?). Looking at the playstation website, it's obvious the PS2 is being marketed as a gaming console ("Live in your world, play in ours").
  I'll give you that the PS2 is a computer, but I don't think you could ever convince me that it's not a gaming console. I'd also ask you to agree that all gaming consoles are computers, dating back to the Atari 2600 and before. They all have CPUs, memory, input devices, output ports, and ways to run software. It all depends on the definition of "gaming console" on where you draw the line. I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least a paragraph in the tariff regulations doing just that, but I can't find them. I just know that from all the evidence and my experience, it's a gaming console.
The article is wrong, Sony proved it IS a computer by Pezman · 2003-10-01 03:37 · Score: 1

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_396604,0003 0001.htm http://www.gamegossip.com/comment.php?id=2156
Definition of a Computer by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 05:03 · Score: 0

The long and short of a computer is that is takes in symbolic input, letters, buttons on consoles also input symbols, processes it with a preprogrammed "How-to" book, and then does something with it and creates output. You all seem to think that a computer is limited to a desktop or a laptop, but that is wrong. A computer is anything that can do those few aforementioned things. There are computers in thermostats, in stoplights, in cars. You can't discount the PS2 as not being a computer simply because you can't load MS Word, that is like saying a donut ain't a donut unless it's got that delicious raspberry filling.
1. Re:Definition of a Computer by NihilSmurf · 2003-10-01 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  I agree with your conclusion, but I think your argument confuses things that contain computers with things that are computers.
  
  My car has wheels, but my car is not a wheel.
  
  Many hotel doorknobs contain computers (for the keycard readers), but I don't think it's reasonable to claim that those doorknobs are computers.
  
  I think a PS2 is a computer, because you can easily reconfigure it to do many different kinds of things that involve decision making and abstract symbol manipulation.
  
  As others have pointed out, the linux kit is a strong argument that a PS2 is a computer.
  
  Even if one claims that is merely some sort of exotic add-on, consider games like Carnage Heart (actually for PSX), where the point of the game is to write programs.
2. Re:Definition of a Computer by tuber · 2003-10-01 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  Please, if the thing that makes it a computer is the ability to install linux on it, then what isn't a computer? If slashdot has taught me one thing, it's that linux can be installed on anything: plant, mineral, animal, cinderblock.... anything.
hmm.... by Yuan-Lung · 2003-10-01 05:11 · Score: 1

because "It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games."

so it my windose box. In fact, it is completely and entirely intended for running games.
intended mainly to run games by jimmcq · 2003-10-01 06:37 · Score: 1

It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games

So is the computer on my desk at home. Does that mean it must now be classified as a console?
NO! Sony is a computer not a game console... by beta21 · 2003-10-01 08:22 · Score: 1

Seems the court interpreter or something got it wrong:
Get the latest here!
"Sony lose out" ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-01 12:50 · Score: 0

shouldn't that say "Europeans lose out?"
I will never understand why y'all vote for these people.
This argument has happened before by Spleener12 · 2003-10-01 13:40 · Score: 1

Back in the days of the NES, Nintendo had the rights to release Tetris for video game consoles, and Tengen had the rights to release Tetris for computers. Tengen made their own version of Teris for the NES, claiming that they could because the NES was a computer. Their evidence was the fact that Nintendo was planning on relasing a keyboard(vaporware) and disk drive(only released in Japan) for the system. They lost, and had to destroy a bunch of Tengen Tetris cartridges. There might be a ROM of it floating around somewhere.
Very interesting by dragon8x4x · 2003-10-03 03:36 · Score: 1

That's cool!
I wish I had some mod points left.

Here is the home page: Scientific Computing on the Sony Playstation 2