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Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons
Tortured Potato writes "The Vancouver Sun reports
that bar owners in the area will soon start
tracking patrons by photo and driver's license. 'John Teti, chairman of the coalition,
said the vote is merely a formality. "We have
full backing from our members," Teti said
Monday....Once the system is in place, patrons
will be asked to stand in front of a camera to
have their picture taken and will then swipe
their drivers' licence, or possibly show some
other form of identification, that will
automatically give the establishment the patron's
name and age and show if he or she has caused
trouble at any other bar on the network.' I'm
glad to see that Big Brother is alive and well on
the left coast." This is the next step past merely swiping licenses.
Just remember that magnetic stripes sometimes get demagnetized. Sometimes a big magnet gets passed over the stripe many times in a row. Later, when they swipe your card, you probably don't even know why it doesn't work. They are free to type it all in if they really need that information.
I make it a point to not go to places that want to scan my license... and when I'm in the right mood, I drink a lot... really a lot (usually without causing trouble, never been cut off, in a barfight, or eight-sixed)
I mean, *really a lot*...
if you want me, I'll be down the street at the place that doesn't care who I am, giving them a bunch of money.
If I was that drunk, I would have remembered it -- H. Simpson
...Bars to start selling "most active" lists to liquor companies (complete with name and address) -- "to bring you offers you might be interested in".
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
That works for me.
1. Move to Vancouver
2. Open a bar
3. Don't treat your patrons as criminals
4. Profit
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
Have you ever seen a drunk Canadian? They're scary -- polite even when smashed...
Ever since I was 18 (1998) in Winnipeg (its in Canada, for those educated in the US) they have been doing this.
For all of the bars affiliated with the CanadInns Corp (www.canadinns.com) this was the standard routine for getting into a bar.
- empty pockets into a basket
- walk through metal detector
- pick up belongings
- hand bouncer your ID
- bouncer photographs the license
- pay cover
And if you happen to be male they also check your name against their database to see if you have been banned from the bar or caused problems on an earlier occasion.
This is really nothing new other than the fact that different owners are now sharing the information.
When it used to be called the hospitality business. If my neigborhood bars were as friendly as the DMV asking for pictures and keeping profiles on customer behavior... They wouldn't survive. This will not survive long... Think of your average college sports bar trying to keep up with photos of every out of town fan on game day.
Keep the tech out of bars for the good of us all. Even the idea of a glass that reports when a drink is getting empty is a waste of time. Remember that story? Work on the people skills and good judgement of your staff first.
A reason for people over 21 to use a fake ID.
This sort of policy will almost certainly backfire.
...where everybody knows your name (and age, address, habits, history and picture.)
Brings new meaning to the Cheers themesong "you wanna go where everybody knows your name..."
I can picture it now. Norm opens door, swipes ID. Photobot robot declares "Norm!" in computerized chorus of voices then snaps photo of Norm. Normbot then rolls over to the bar and asks for a glass of motor oil but is denied for a drunken battlebot fights with Cliffbot. Woodybot has had a hard disk failure and begins mumbling about his days back on the moisture farm with C3PO...
Hmm, my thoughs seem to have degenerated. what was I talking about?
Just spewing thoughts here...
Can this system keep track of a 'bar tab' for me as well? Does it provide ANY value to me as a customer? (update: after RTFA, the answer given was 'give-up-your-anonymity-for-"safety"')
What if I get 'blacklisted'? How long does my name stay on the list?
Can I SEE the list? Will they at least TELL me I'm on the list?
Wait a second... Am I on this list automatically, once my picture/ID is recorded? Before I've even done anything? (See previous line)
I'm assuming the Police would LOVE access to this list, so they'll have it, officially or not. (update: I just RTFA; YES, they can subpoena info from the list)
I'm assuming local employers will LOOOVE access to this list... A reason to fire current employees or refuse future candidates.
(update: after RTFA, and I love the comparison of this system with renting a car. I didn't know going to a bar was so serious...)
I was thinking the same thing, and was going to comment along those lines. But once this data has been collected & stored somewhere, what's to stop it from being subpoena, or otherwise leaked outside of it's intended use? It really does get down to the point that once someone starts taking notes on your behavior, that information can end up anywhere.
It's up to the consumer to discourage these practices with their dollars; the regulars with privacy in mind will either not be photographed or will find new watering holes.
I live downtown Vancouver, 2 blocks from the "granville row" that they refer to in the article.
I've played in the house band of one of these clubs, and know a LOT of people that work and play in these clubs.
I think this is a GOOD thing.
Even as we speak, a friend of mine is STILL recuperating from a severe shit-kicking that happened within one of the bars over 2 months ago.
She (yes, SHE) was minding her own business, when 2 guys bumped into her boyfriend, who turned around with the typical "WTF!?", and the 2 guys almost killed him. I wish I were being over-dramatic, but they literally ALMOST KILLED HIM. They knew how to fight, and they went at it. One of them even pulled out a collapsable baton and hit him while he was down. It should be mentioned that the guy who got shit-kicked was knocked down and unconscious before he even finished the "WTF!?".
At this point, his girlfriend jumped in and tried to get them to stop, so they started beating her with the baton.
This happened in less than 30 seconds, in front of a horrified bartender, and the guys were gone before any bouncers could arrive... and they weren't slow to get there.
Even now the bar-scene staff, Vancouver Police, and RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), are trying to figure out who the guys were and how to find them.
The sad part is that it's not an isolated incedent. In-bar muggings and shootings are on the rise, with a number of East Indian and Asian gangs going nuts on each other.
My whole philosophy is that it's private property, it's reasonable for the bars to ask you to do this to get in, and at the end of the day, you don't HAVE to go there. You don't like their policies, don't go.
If anything, I'd rather see this story being discussed from a "technology-based solution to a problem" angle rather than a knee-jerk "oh my God they're coming to get us, put on your tinfoil hats!" angle.
$0.02 (CDN)
You're pulled over one night for having a headlight out. A quick computer check shows you having visitied 4 bars that evening. Reasonable suspicion indicates that you may have been drinking. The cop's BAC meter is giving off-base responses, so the cop decides to exercise his perogative to take you in for suspicion of DWI.
You're taken to the county jail; a wrecker is dispatched to pick up your vehicle. You sit in the tank for several hours with all the other riff-raff, hoping to God no one takes a liking to your shoes. You're denied a phone call, because you haven't been booked yet. Finally, the jail supervisor gets to your case, but since it's been several hours, the supervisor decides if there was any alcohol before, it's all but metabolized, and there are bigger fish to fry in the tank with you. So they let you go.
Since you're downtown, you have to call a cab to take you to the wrecker station, which is of course all the way across town. After a hefty taxi fare, paid in cash, you walk up to the window to pick up your car. Oh, they tell you, you'll need a release from the PD to do that. Plus, we only take cash. By now dawn is breaking, and you wish to God you hadn't volunteered to be a designated driver for your friends.
I'll keep my tinfoil hat on, thank you very much.
Back when I was a doorman/bouncer, we used this thing called a memory. We had a network too...If I turfed somebody, they were barred for life. If I was out drinking at another bar, and I saw somebody I had barred, I'd tell the doorman that the guy was likely to be a problem and he'd do likewise. This was in Ottawa, which is a good sized city.
No bar in Vancouver that institutes this will ever get my business, and I live in that neck of the woods. And I drink and tip heavily (parse that how you will).
Bars that want my photograph before they'll take my money. What will they think of next?
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
The problem with all of this information collection isn't the immediate positive use of it, but rather the long term potential for abuse once the information is out there. What happens if you piss off a bartender at one of these bars because you were hitting on his girlfriend or tipped him badly? He could put a black mark in the system and you'd not be able to get into a number of bars.
Also, what if somebody just has one bad night where things got a little out of hand and they get a black mark in the system? Like most bars, regardless of who starts a fight will kick out everybody involved. So what if you just get caught up in something accidentally?
The problem with these systems isn't that they'll help a bar to stop the most egregious offenders, but rather the possibility that the system will, either through mistake or intention, ban the innocent for no good reason.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
In addition to simply demagnetizing the stripe, you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21...or your name is really something else, et cetera.
With barcodes you can always put a sticker with a new barcode over the original barcode. You would have to be looking really hard to notice, if done right (remember people printing up new UPC barcodes for Wal Mart products?)
The only type of machine readable document implement that is difficult to change are simultaneously human readable...the readable characters on the passport (found on the first page on most passports and have lots of little >>>>>>>> thingies) were originally conceived on a privacy basis, because people would always know what's encoded in their passports. I cite the security advantages, since a human can read what the machine can read, and its easy for a human to double check that.
Not that they would. When a human has a machine to read a document, they will almost always just trust what the machine says, and not check what the document says.
There are plenty of places Big Brother is urgently applicable today. Just not here.
Central to George Orwell's image is the notion of coercion. You are certainly coerced if the government requires you to participate in an invasive information system by law. And there are many ways you can experience more subtle coercion "by policy" as well... because you ostensibly have the freedom not to participate, but only in theory.
This seems like one case when this kind of technology is OK - because participating in it is something people can choose to do - or not - by exercising their options in a healthy, competitive marketplace.
For the sake of comparison, POTS telephone companies (regional monopolies; barrier to entry: illegal), or CPU companies (only two x86 players; barrier to entry: inconceivable) are not "healthy, competitive" marketplaces.
Monopolies like Microsoft requiring the installation and maintenance of DRM systems? Coercion, possible because of an (extremely) unhealthy marketplace.
Verizon saying "I'm going to sell your phone records to marketers?" Coercion. Where are your alternatives if you want to opt out?
But bars aren't like that at all.
I couldn't see myself going to any place that did this, but I don't think I could say they shouldn't be allowed to do it. Let them track and photograph their patrons in ways even the Vegas casinos won't do. No one forces you to go a bar. Opening a bar is within the grasp of many, many entrepeneurs. This means (within reason) you will be able to opt out. This kind of security measure should succeed, or fail (and who can guess which, in the end?), in that marketplace based on its merits.
What I worry about? If that's what it takes to keep bars running well, what does it say about our society?
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
This way, any guy who works at the bar, or is friendly with the bouncer, can find out who that really hot chick is at the end of the bar. Get her home address, wait outsdie for her when she gets home. Call her to say hi.
Dont tell me it wont be used for this. I used to work someplace making IDs on a computer system. The security guys would come in all the time and ask "Hey, girl with brown hair, blue eyes, in this building, whats her name?" Pull up the list of pictures, get the info. Then they can go look at the security system to look up her schedule, then just happen to meet her going in or coming out of the building. Theres a very, very thin line between manufactruing an excuse to meet a cute girl, and stalking.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
- The organization in question, Barwatch, donated $5000 to the incredibly right-wing Liberal party (go figure) that currently runs the province. The same organization was behind a fight with the worker's compensation board of BC regarding the rights of workers not to have to work in a cloud of second-hand smoke. The Liberals changed the law to remove the WCB ventilation requirements.
- The same liberals have passed (I think) some privacy legislation that allows disclosure of personal information collected by observation at a performance, sports meet, or a similar event that is open to the public (Think Tampa superbowl), and allows organisations not to tell individuals what information they have, "if the disclosure of the personal information would reveal confidential commercial information that if disclosed, could, in the opinion of a reasonable person, harm the competitive position of the organization". In other words, it's pretty wide open.
- This isn't the first time Barwatch has cranked up surveillance of its patrons: This article mentions that video taping has been going on in Barwatch bars for three years before the article was written, in 1999. It also demonstrates that while these programs are justified by safety concerns, they are also used for marketing data.
- These guys have some power: Apart from the smoking legislation, Barwatch also lobbied to implement bus service later, and allow bars open later. Recently, the BC Liberal party allowed bars to be open until 4 AM on Fridays, and Translink began offering night bus service to at least SFU.
- On his geocities resume web site, Bradley Shende claims to be the Barwatch founder. According to his site, "Barwatch is an original concept. It's purpose was to establish communication between licensed establishments and the various branches of municipal law enforcement and regulation to create a forum of co-operation rather than adversity, and to set standards by which we would all operate our licensed premises. The organization has been a success over the years and is now branched out into the US and all over Canada." Apparently he is also "a quick study on systems and software". Nice win2k experience, Bradley.
- Barwatch has changed their phone number, and no longer has a web presence (www.barwatch.org as posted on Shende's web site). I was unable to contact them before posting this. The often cited name of the chair and spokesman of Barwatch is Vance Campbell.
I'm usually a proponent of strong authentication; I sign all my mail with gpg. However, I know that this makes me uncomfortable and I probably won't be going to these establishments.The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.