Slashdot Mirror
Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons
Tortured Potato writes "The Vancouver Sun reports
that bar owners in the area will soon start
tracking patrons by photo and driver's license. 'John Teti, chairman of the coalition,
said the vote is merely a formality. "We have
full backing from our members," Teti said
Monday....Once the system is in place, patrons
will be asked to stand in front of a camera to
have their picture taken and will then swipe
their drivers' licence, or possibly show some
other form of identification, that will
automatically give the establishment the patron's
name and age and show if he or she has caused
trouble at any other bar on the network.' I'm
glad to see that Big Brother is alive and well on
the left coast." This is the next step past merely swiping licenses.
Just remember that magnetic stripes sometimes get demagnetized. Sometimes a big magnet gets passed over the stripe many times in a row. Later, when they swipe your card, you probably don't even know why it doesn't work. They are free to type it all in if they really need that information.
ok, now dosen't this seem a little redundant? all references to 1984 aside, why do they have to take you picture? isn't it already on your drivers liscense?
Cogito Eggo Sum, I think therefore I'm a waffle
This seems like a good idea for bar owners, but I get the feeling that drunk canadians aren't going to like this much...
As of 10/06/03, I hate COBOL developers.
OTOH, what frickin' business is it of theirs to know where I've been? It's only someone else's business if I endanger someone else, dangit!
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
I make it a point to not go to places that want to scan my license... and when I'm in the right mood, I drink a lot... really a lot (usually without causing trouble, never been cut off, in a barfight, or eight-sixed)
I mean, *really a lot*...
if you want me, I'll be down the street at the place that doesn't care who I am, giving them a bunch of money.
If I was that drunk, I would have remembered it -- H. Simpson
I guess the US alcohol culture is different to that in Britain, but if that were tried here the thing that immediately strikes me as problematic is when (say, just before a big soccer match) a big crowd of 50 or so people enter the pub. Queues in that kind of situation tend to be bad enough, with people 3 deep at the bar, but if they had to muck about with swipe cards (and there'll always be the odd 10% who haven't been to the bar before and need their photo and details entering onto the system) the queues would be appalling. Besides which, what happens when the system crashes? Either the pubs lose a lot of business or they make do without the system; and if they can make do without it, why bother in the first place?
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
...Bars to start selling "most active" lists to liquor companies (complete with name and address) -- "to bring you offers you might be interested in".
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
That works for me.
1. Move to Vancouver
2. Open a bar
3. Don't treat your patrons as criminals
4. Profit
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
Right, since it is the pubs, how about we call this phenomenon Big Bartender?
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
Swiping licenses is used to prevent fake ids and it works very well. They are simply combining this with a way to keep track of trouble makers. Take off your tinfoil hats
OMFG, what if the Elsinore Brewery gets ahold the database?
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
Ever since I was 18 (1998) in Winnipeg (its in Canada, for those educated in the US) they have been doing this.
For all of the bars affiliated with the CanadInns Corp (www.canadinns.com) this was the standard routine for getting into a bar.
- empty pockets into a basket
- walk through metal detector
- pick up belongings
- hand bouncer your ID
- bouncer photographs the license
- pay cover
And if you happen to be male they also check your name against their database to see if you have been banned from the bar or caused problems on an earlier occasion.
This is really nothing new other than the fact that different owners are now sharing the information.
When it used to be called the hospitality business. If my neigborhood bars were as friendly as the DMV asking for pictures and keeping profiles on customer behavior... They wouldn't survive. This will not survive long... Think of your average college sports bar trying to keep up with photos of every out of town fan on game day.
Keep the tech out of bars for the good of us all. Even the idea of a glass that reports when a drink is getting empty is a waste of time. Remember that story? Work on the people skills and good judgement of your staff first.
A reason for people over 21 to use a fake ID.
This sort of policy will almost certainly backfire.
...where everybody knows your name (and age, address, habits, history and picture.)
Theres going to be a booming busisness in fake ids though. I have absoloutly no problem with handing someone a fake id with the correct birthdate, and completely bogus other information. THe law requires them to check that i am over 21. That information is accurate, and therefore i am not defrauding anyone.
THe law does not require them to take a mugshot and collect private data for marketing.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
In Winnipeg Manitoba(Which for you who dont know is in Canada), almost 90% of our bars have had this system in place for years and hasnt had any reportings of being abused.
Here is how our system works. You walk through a metal detector, get patted down, they put your drivers license under a magnifier/camera, and take your picture, both are saved in their system.
Now, if you do cause trouble, or the cops come looking for you, they simply say "yes he's here" and point you out. If you do something dumb at the bar, their computer is then programmed to ban you for a pre determined time..
I have no problem with this system at all, Im not doing anything bad, so I have nothing to worry about, as for photo identification, I think its a great idea, I have photo ID at work, School, when I goto the bar, etc... I feel alot safer knowing the establishments I patron know who is in their facilities
- NO drinking after 2
- NO drinking after midnight on sundays.
- NO selling of hard alchohol except in government liqour stores
- NO drinking in public
- NO smoking in bars
this is a place where during large events like fireworks and newyears, the cops stand at the subway exits downtown and search (illegally) and confiscate peoples' unopened and hidden alchohol.You want to have drive-through bottle shops??
I'm sure a system like this will become almost mandatory, as the insurance companies begin to charge triple for bars that don't participate in this system.
Sure, you can have a bar without this system, it's just it won't be financially viable as your montlhy insurance premium will be much higher than your competitors.
Reminds me when I was in college, and the local 7-11 scanned your california driver's license when you buy cigarettes. My friend, who wanted to buy cigs, didn't want them to scan his license, so he handed them his military ID. Of course, you can't scan this, and as such, wouldn't sell him cigs. (even tho he was old enough to buy liquor)... After a bunch of yelling, they sold him his cigs without scanning anthing...
Brings new meaning to the Cheers themesong "you wanna go where everybody knows your name..."
I can picture it now. Norm opens door, swipes ID. Photobot robot declares "Norm!" in computerized chorus of voices then snaps photo of Norm. Normbot then rolls over to the bar and asks for a glass of motor oil but is denied for a drunken battlebot fights with Cliffbot. Woodybot has had a hard disk failure and begins mumbling about his days back on the moisture farm with C3PO...
Hmm, my thoughs seem to have degenerated. what was I talking about?
California Makes Getting A License Easy. All you need is a fake mexican consular id and you can be anybody. Fudging the picture will take some work though.
That why I go to the Liquor store. It's only 6 blocks away, it's cheaper than going to a bar, and if my wife throws me out of the place, I can go sleep at the neighboors.
(/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
Just spewing thoughts here...
Can this system keep track of a 'bar tab' for me as well? Does it provide ANY value to me as a customer? (update: after RTFA, the answer given was 'give-up-your-anonymity-for-"safety"')
What if I get 'blacklisted'? How long does my name stay on the list?
Can I SEE the list? Will they at least TELL me I'm on the list?
Wait a second... Am I on this list automatically, once my picture/ID is recorded? Before I've even done anything? (See previous line)
I'm assuming the Police would LOVE access to this list, so they'll have it, officially or not. (update: I just RTFA; YES, they can subpoena info from the list)
I'm assuming local employers will LOOOVE access to this list... A reason to fire current employees or refuse future candidates.
(update: after RTFA, and I love the comparison of this system with renting a car. I didn't know going to a bar was so serious...)
One passing comment on my way out of the bar about how the 200 pound gorilla with no neck gaurding the door has a girlfried who's boob's are way too big - and I'm 'barred' from every local establishment within the speed of a mouse click. Just what we need. More bouncers on power trips. It sounds like this system is just screaming with abuse potential.
It is telling, if not surprising, that in all of the media coverage, I have yet to hear the bar owners address the issue of privacy legislation. BC's forthcoming private sector privacy law, Bill 38, due to come into effect Jan 1st 2004, imposes very specific requirements upon organisations handling personally identifiable information, including collection, use, consent and access, among others. I'd be interested to hear BC's Information and Privacy Commissioner's view on this proposed scheme - as far as I can tell, the bar owners have not made any consideration of the legal duties this legislation will impose upon them.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
I was thinking the same thing, and was going to comment along those lines. But once this data has been collected & stored somewhere, what's to stop it from being subpoena, or otherwise leaked outside of it's intended use? It really does get down to the point that once someone starts taking notes on your behavior, that information can end up anywhere.
It's up to the consumer to discourage these practices with their dollars; the regulars with privacy in mind will either not be photographed or will find new watering holes.
...those records are subpoena'd because there was a fight in the bar, or near the bar, or a DUI suspected to have been at the bar or whatever. The more databases you build, the easier you make it to actually pull together a profile when "big brother" sees the need.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Not everyone wants to be in a bar with a crowd of drunken rowdies. The ones who will be the most averse to this will be the troublemakers who will go elsewhere.
I don't go to bars here in Vancouver, I do go to pubs in the U.K. (at least not near a football ground). I'm looking for a quiet, relaxed atmosphere where I can enjoy a drink with my mates or my wife (not necessarily in that order).
The picture taking is a bit much, though. With regards to potential swiping damage, should they use the 2D bar code as an alternative as BC's pretty driver's licenses have both?
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
I live downtown Vancouver, 2 blocks from the "granville row" that they refer to in the article.
I've played in the house band of one of these clubs, and know a LOT of people that work and play in these clubs.
I think this is a GOOD thing.
Even as we speak, a friend of mine is STILL recuperating from a severe shit-kicking that happened within one of the bars over 2 months ago.
She (yes, SHE) was minding her own business, when 2 guys bumped into her boyfriend, who turned around with the typical "WTF!?", and the 2 guys almost killed him. I wish I were being over-dramatic, but they literally ALMOST KILLED HIM. They knew how to fight, and they went at it. One of them even pulled out a collapsable baton and hit him while he was down. It should be mentioned that the guy who got shit-kicked was knocked down and unconscious before he even finished the "WTF!?".
At this point, his girlfriend jumped in and tried to get them to stop, so they started beating her with the baton.
This happened in less than 30 seconds, in front of a horrified bartender, and the guys were gone before any bouncers could arrive... and they weren't slow to get there.
Even now the bar-scene staff, Vancouver Police, and RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), are trying to figure out who the guys were and how to find them.
The sad part is that it's not an isolated incedent. In-bar muggings and shootings are on the rise, with a number of East Indian and Asian gangs going nuts on each other.
My whole philosophy is that it's private property, it's reasonable for the bars to ask you to do this to get in, and at the end of the day, you don't HAVE to go there. You don't like their policies, don't go.
If anything, I'd rather see this story being discussed from a "technology-based solution to a problem" angle rather than a knee-jerk "oh my God they're coming to get us, put on your tinfoil hats!" angle.
$0.02 (CDN)
It still is because I probably don't go to bars there that will implement this type silliness. Vancouver is an awesome city. You can get drunk off of really strong beer and smoke all the pot you want.
As for bars taking pictures of people, that's just stupid. I don't know about in Canada, but in Washington it's illegal to serve people that are visibly drunk. Rather than treating all your customers like criminals the bars should be hiring better bartenders and waitresses that can tell when someone is drinking too much. You are supposed observe the person's personality and when they start acting like assholes toss them out with the garbage, that's how it supposed to work. If they are just an asshole to begin with toss them out too, who needs 'em. If you can't handle your liquor don't drink with the big boys.
I have spent a considerable portion of my life in bars, and not always nice ones, and I have rarely ever seen a barfight. I know they happen but the fact is that the vast majority of people, probably over 95%, have never been involved in a bar fight. It doesn't take an expert to figure out who the troublemakers are - they are probably the same ones from last night.
LoRider
More aptly, "Big Bouncer"
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Back when I was a doorman/bouncer, we used this thing called a memory. We had a network too...If I turfed somebody, they were barred for life. If I was out drinking at another bar, and I saw somebody I had barred, I'd tell the doorman that the guy was likely to be a problem and he'd do likewise. This was in Ottawa, which is a good sized city.
No bar in Vancouver that institutes this will ever get my business, and I live in that neck of the woods. And I drink and tip heavily (parse that how you will).
Bars that want my photograph before they'll take my money. What will they think of next?
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
The problem with all of this information collection isn't the immediate positive use of it, but rather the long term potential for abuse once the information is out there. What happens if you piss off a bartender at one of these bars because you were hitting on his girlfriend or tipped him badly? He could put a black mark in the system and you'd not be able to get into a number of bars.
Also, what if somebody just has one bad night where things got a little out of hand and they get a black mark in the system? Like most bars, regardless of who starts a fight will kick out everybody involved. So what if you just get caught up in something accidentally?
The problem with these systems isn't that they'll help a bar to stop the most egregious offenders, but rather the possibility that the system will, either through mistake or intention, ban the innocent for no good reason.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
The government is not necessarily the problem. The government is one possible source of control over your life. But only one. In America, at this point, corporations are more likely to be imposing on your freedoms than the government. The government has certain statutory limitations that still stand on what it's allowed to do to a private citizen, and the government has some tiny amount of accountability to the people since the people can exert a certain amount of influence by voting. Businesses, however, do not share these limitations, and people these days spend far more time interacting with businesses than they do interacting with their government.
OK, so we're at a point where anyone in this bar network can get the information on who's been drinking in the bars in this town. Now let's say, as a random aside, after a couple years, a small subsidiary of Time Warner just happens to buy one of these bars. Now let's say that two or so years later, you happen to be working for Time Warner, and your boss calls you in, looking at something on your personell file on the company intranet, and wanting to know why it is that the BarWatch statistics program is showing that you were in area bars for 35 hours this weekend when your project is two weeks behind schedule. Couldn't that time have been better spent on unpaid overtime...?
Or perhaps there will come a time in three years when you don't make rent, and your landlord simply promptly hands that debt off to a collection agency becuase that's an easy way of dealing with it. And all of a sudden when you swipe your drivers license at a bar, the bar, which has a certain complex deal with the credit union, is denying you entrance unless you pay the $200 that the computer says you owe to CCAA local #223..
These scenarios do not seem terribly realistic. However, it is definitely plausible. And a year ago, when slashdot was running the story that bars had started swiping drivers licenses instead of just looking at them, the people saying "THEY'LL JUST USE THIS TO TRACK YOU NEXT!" did not seem very realistic at all.
There's somehow this idea floating around that only the government wants to control you. This is a silly way to look at things. Anywhere in human social interactions that power collects is a source of danger.
All seek to enslave you, and I've already got this ravenous beast of plaster to deal with.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
The metal detector part most of all. See I live in Arizona. Here, it's legal to carry a gun either openly or concealed. You need a permit to conceal it, but openly anyone can do, no permit required. Plenty of people do carry guns regularly too, or knives (covered by the same law as guns). However, they aren't allowed in bars. You either need to leave them in your car, or check them at the door.
So, being that lots of people have and carry guns, you'd think here would be a more likely candidate for metal dectors. Nope, never seen one in any bar. They just trust you'll obey the law. Seems that people do, too, I haven't heard of any bar shootings.
Well it then strikes me as odd that Canda, which has far more restrictive handgun laws, would find it necessary to do this. I wonder if it is parionia or if bargoers in Canada like to pack heat illegally.
Entering and leaving the bar *ARE* our everyday movements.
paintball
In addition to simply demagnetizing the stripe, you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21...or your name is really something else, et cetera.
With barcodes you can always put a sticker with a new barcode over the original barcode. You would have to be looking really hard to notice, if done right (remember people printing up new UPC barcodes for Wal Mart products?)
The only type of machine readable document implement that is difficult to change are simultaneously human readable...the readable characters on the passport (found on the first page on most passports and have lots of little >>>>>>>> thingies) were originally conceived on a privacy basis, because people would always know what's encoded in their passports. I cite the security advantages, since a human can read what the machine can read, and its easy for a human to double check that.
Not that they would. When a human has a machine to read a document, they will almost always just trust what the machine says, and not check what the document says.
There are plenty of places Big Brother is urgently applicable today. Just not here.
Central to George Orwell's image is the notion of coercion. You are certainly coerced if the government requires you to participate in an invasive information system by law. And there are many ways you can experience more subtle coercion "by policy" as well... because you ostensibly have the freedom not to participate, but only in theory.
This seems like one case when this kind of technology is OK - because participating in it is something people can choose to do - or not - by exercising their options in a healthy, competitive marketplace.
For the sake of comparison, POTS telephone companies (regional monopolies; barrier to entry: illegal), or CPU companies (only two x86 players; barrier to entry: inconceivable) are not "healthy, competitive" marketplaces.
Monopolies like Microsoft requiring the installation and maintenance of DRM systems? Coercion, possible because of an (extremely) unhealthy marketplace.
Verizon saying "I'm going to sell your phone records to marketers?" Coercion. Where are your alternatives if you want to opt out?
But bars aren't like that at all.
I couldn't see myself going to any place that did this, but I don't think I could say they shouldn't be allowed to do it. Let them track and photograph their patrons in ways even the Vegas casinos won't do. No one forces you to go a bar. Opening a bar is within the grasp of many, many entrepeneurs. This means (within reason) you will be able to opt out. This kind of security measure should succeed, or fail (and who can guess which, in the end?), in that marketplace based on its merits.
What I worry about? If that's what it takes to keep bars running well, what does it say about our society?
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Ok, so they're expecting the bartender or some dedicated person to watch for you. How about two days from now? A month?
Photo recognition software can't even get 90% right in the tests I've seen reported.
Well, the license swipe might help, but what happens when it fails to read? Type it in right? No big deal. What happens when 50% of your customers purposefully scratch barcode on the license or de-magnetize it? Give yourself about sixty seconds to process that customer. Big club with say, 60 people an hour ane gonna have their hands VERY full in a hurry.
I think this will probably work, but I would expect the cost to be quite significant to implement.
This way, any guy who works at the bar, or is friendly with the bouncer, can find out who that really hot chick is at the end of the bar. Get her home address, wait outsdie for her when she gets home. Call her to say hi.
Dont tell me it wont be used for this. I used to work someplace making IDs on a computer system. The security guys would come in all the time and ask "Hey, girl with brown hair, blue eyes, in this building, whats her name?" Pull up the list of pictures, get the info. Then they can go look at the security system to look up her schedule, then just happen to meet her going in or coming out of the building. Theres a very, very thin line between manufactruing an excuse to meet a cute girl, and stalking.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
At University of Illinois in Champaign, most bars had a variation of this: They had a camera at the door, it'd grab a picture of your face, then they'd slide your ID under another camera that went onto the same video tape - thus giving them a picture of the ID *AND* of you.
Why?
So when the cops showed up and busted underagers who got rid of their fake IDs when they saw the cops coming (which would be wise, since using one in IL gets you a 1 year suspension of your license), the bar could point to the video tape and say "We checked this person, they gave us this ID, and yes, they look like the picture on the ID", thus sparing the bar the nasty fine and potential liquor license revokation from letting in someone underage.
paintball
When I went to ICBC to change my address, they taped a white piece of paper with my new address to the back of the card, obscuring both the bar code and magnetic strip.............
I applaud you for being one of the FEW americans who actually understand that.
Well, according to the article, not too many Canadian realize it, either. And yes, I would love for that to happen in our own country, but us Americans are too paranoid about blaming drugs/music/TV/popstars/etc. for our children's dirty little minds. However, with Canada and England doing the same thing so quickly, it's only a matter of time before it will happen here.
Zodiac Survey
The funny thing about Vancouver is that as progressive as it is in many ways, the liquor laws are anachronistically draconian.
...
a lot of sleazy bars and clubs that tend to be populated with bimbos and knuckle-dragging frat boys
And people that stare when you say anachronistically draconian...
- The organization in question, Barwatch, donated $5000 to the incredibly right-wing Liberal party (go figure) that currently runs the province. The same organization was behind a fight with the worker's compensation board of BC regarding the rights of workers not to have to work in a cloud of second-hand smoke. The Liberals changed the law to remove the WCB ventilation requirements.
- The same liberals have passed (I think) some privacy legislation that allows disclosure of personal information collected by observation at a performance, sports meet, or a similar event that is open to the public (Think Tampa superbowl), and allows organisations not to tell individuals what information they have, "if the disclosure of the personal information would reveal confidential commercial information that if disclosed, could, in the opinion of a reasonable person, harm the competitive position of the organization". In other words, it's pretty wide open.
- This isn't the first time Barwatch has cranked up surveillance of its patrons: This article mentions that video taping has been going on in Barwatch bars for three years before the article was written, in 1999. It also demonstrates that while these programs are justified by safety concerns, they are also used for marketing data.
- These guys have some power: Apart from the smoking legislation, Barwatch also lobbied to implement bus service later, and allow bars open later. Recently, the BC Liberal party allowed bars to be open until 4 AM on Fridays, and Translink began offering night bus service to at least SFU.
- On his geocities resume web site, Bradley Shende claims to be the Barwatch founder. According to his site, "Barwatch is an original concept. It's purpose was to establish communication between licensed establishments and the various branches of municipal law enforcement and regulation to create a forum of co-operation rather than adversity, and to set standards by which we would all operate our licensed premises. The organization has been a success over the years and is now branched out into the US and all over Canada." Apparently he is also "a quick study on systems and software". Nice win2k experience, Bradley.
- Barwatch has changed their phone number, and no longer has a web presence (www.barwatch.org as posted on Shende's web site). I was unable to contact them before posting this. The often cited name of the chair and spokesman of Barwatch is Vance Campbell.
I'm usually a proponent of strong authentication; I sign all my mail with gpg. However, I know that this makes me uncomfortable and I probably won't be going to these establishments.The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
If they have a data trail for each visit, they can also mine for frequency of visits. How long till they start providing this data to insurance companies? People who frequent bars most = statistically more likely to have health problems, motoring accidents, lose their jobs, etc.
Before everyone yells 'privacy policy' I will point out that most (all?) medical insurers will not insure you unless you give up the right to privacy of your medical records.
IMHO, legal privacy protections are ultimately useless, as soon as any record exists, powerful organisations will find a way to obtain it.
How often do I have to check? Can I just do it once, on my birthday, or do I have to check again everytime I go into a bar?
More to the point, how do I know I'm not lying? Should I ask to see photo ID?
Sorry, but i dont buy the 'its for the kids' sort of attitude.
There is NO reason to give up your freedom and privacy for false security.
You would think people would have learned that by now..
Anyone here remember Hitler? Stalin?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Interesting concept, I hope they get good use out of it for the next 3 months. After that, they're toast, because that's when (01Jan04) Canada's privacy legislation covers all businesses in Canada. Currently only firms that either:
... are covered by the legislation.
a) transfer identity information over provincial boundaries b) collect information on behalf of the Federal or Provincial governments
or c) are a government agency
A couple of points:
a) The business must provide specific details as to what, if anything, they will do with personal information collected;
b) They must get your specific permission to expand on whatever they said they would do with it when they collected the information;
c) They must not collect more information than is absolutely neccessary to perform whatever purpose they described in a) above;
d) The information must be collected for a bona fide reason; ie if they don't need your name to sell you a pack of gum for cash, forget it;
e) If there is no bona fide business reason to collect such information, they must sell you whatever service they provide when you refuse to identify yourself.
I can casually see several legal objections to what the bars are intending to do. Look for this to die a quiet death.
Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons
Interesting way to put the spin on it. I have another idea.
Vancouver Bars Network Together to Protect Customers
If I go to a bar and bump into the wrong person, I'm going to get my ass kicked (if I'm lucky), or, like another poster mentioned, I'm going to get beaten within an inch of my life. This is a big reason I don't go to bars. The worst part is, if it happens, I'm probably on my own. In a city the size of Vancouver, it's not too easy to find someone based on what four people almost saw.
With this system in place, the bars know where I go, but they also know who was there, with photos, so if I get laid out, I can say 'yeah, that's the guy' and they have records of him swiping in/out of the bar, so they know he was there.
I don't meet a lot of belligerant people, but when I do, coincidentally, most of them are drunk. If I'm given reassurances that there will be penalties for people who harm me, I'll feel a lot safer going out and having a good time. And that translates into me spending more money. That being said, having to empty one's pockets, as another poster mentioned is a real pain in the ass.
--Dan