Slashdot Mirror
Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons
Tortured Potato writes "The Vancouver Sun reports
that bar owners in the area will soon start
tracking patrons by photo and driver's license. 'John Teti, chairman of the coalition,
said the vote is merely a formality. "We have
full backing from our members," Teti said
Monday....Once the system is in place, patrons
will be asked to stand in front of a camera to
have their picture taken and will then swipe
their drivers' licence, or possibly show some
other form of identification, that will
automatically give the establishment the patron's
name and age and show if he or she has caused
trouble at any other bar on the network.' I'm
glad to see that Big Brother is alive and well on
the left coast." This is the next step past merely swiping licenses.
Just remember that magnetic stripes sometimes get demagnetized. Sometimes a big magnet gets passed over the stripe many times in a row. Later, when they swipe your card, you probably don't even know why it doesn't work. They are free to type it all in if they really need that information.
ok, now dosen't this seem a little redundant? all references to 1984 aside, why do they have to take you picture? isn't it already on your drivers liscense?
Cogito Eggo Sum, I think therefore I'm a waffle
This seems like a good idea for bar owners, but I get the feeling that drunk canadians aren't going to like this much...
As of 10/06/03, I hate COBOL developers.
Does this mean that you can get public drunkenness while stumbling from bar-to-bar?
OTOH, what frickin' business is it of theirs to know where I've been? It's only someone else's business if I endanger someone else, dangit!
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
I make it a point to not go to places that want to scan my license... and when I'm in the right mood, I drink a lot... really a lot (usually without causing trouble, never been cut off, in a barfight, or eight-sixed)
I mean, *really a lot*...
if you want me, I'll be down the street at the place that doesn't care who I am, giving them a bunch of money.
If I was that drunk, I would have remembered it -- H. Simpson
I guess the US alcohol culture is different to that in Britain, but if that were tried here the thing that immediately strikes me as problematic is when (say, just before a big soccer match) a big crowd of 50 or so people enter the pub. Queues in that kind of situation tend to be bad enough, with people 3 deep at the bar, but if they had to muck about with swipe cards (and there'll always be the odd 10% who haven't been to the bar before and need their photo and details entering onto the system) the queues would be appalling. Besides which, what happens when the system crashes? Either the pubs lose a lot of business or they make do without the system; and if they can make do without it, why bother in the first place?
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
...Bars to start selling "most active" lists to liquor companies (complete with name and address) -- "to bring you offers you might be interested in".
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
I don't think this will affect the Slashdot crowd much. I mean, who here has enough of a social life to have ever even *seen* the inside of a bar?
...patrons are really going to put up with this. I see a great market springing up for drive-through bottle shops and parties at home.
-- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
I am NOT gonna stand up for a fucking mugshot to have a beer. Ill go to the bar next door, ill go to the bar down the street, or ill just go hte hell home and have a beer.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
That works for me.
1. Move to Vancouver
2. Open a bar
3. Don't treat your patrons as criminals
4. Profit
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
We can't guarantee it's going to eradicate violence, but at least it's a step in the right direction."
Vancouver police are supportive.
There have been more altercations between drunken clubbers since the city extended drinking hours to 4 a.m. and the department has spent nearly $120,000 for extra police officers to work the late-night patrol since the hours were extended July 4, Constable Sarah Bloor said.
How about closing bars at 2 am? Better that than scanning everyone because of what goes on between 2 and 4 am ... or maybe just scan the 2-4 crowd.
Right, since it is the pubs, how about we call this phenomenon Big Bartender?
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
oh, don't worry, I'm sure government will want to get in on the action if this takes off :)
If I was that drunk, I would have remembered it -- H. Simpson
I wiped out the magnetic strip on my driver's license after a bouncer at a club in NYC swiped my card before I could say anything. Friends told me this was going to cause me trouble the next time I got stopped by the cops. Last Saturday I got pulled over for not wearing a seat belt and the cop had no trouble handing me a $30 ticket and sending me on my way. I have not been back to a club that uses the swipers since I cleaned it off, so I don't know if they would let me in, but it was no trouble with a cop.
Free cell phone tracking
Swiping licenses is used to prevent fake ids and it works very well. They are simply combining this with a way to keep track of trouble makers. Take off your tinfoil hats
nt
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I can't believe they would name it Vigilence. Is this some sort of joke???
I can think of 20 Orwellian references (in addition to the obvious ones actually written by Orwell) in mainstream media tying that particular word promenently to very bad Big Brother things.
"Most people are willing to give up a bit of anonymity for safety" Owen Cameron, co-owner of the creator of this monstrosity. Unfortunately, he is right. What they don't understand is just HOW MUCH anonymity they are giving up for such a SMALL bit of safety. Stupid, stupid people...
I, for one [hic!] welshumm our [hic!] drunken overlrr-[hic!] overrrrrr...-[hic!]
leadershhhh!
[hic!]
I'm sure that 98% of the populace won't care, but I for one wouldn't accept that... even swiping the data from the card is unacceptable.
If all Vancouver bars do this, I would still either go elsewhere or not go to the bar at all. Sorry... bars don't have a monopoly on entertainment.
It's starting to sound like we're moving towards where you need "papers" to travel beyond city boundaries... I thought that era was over already!
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
OMFG, what if the Elsinore Brewery gets ahold the database?
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
I'm not sure about Canada, but couldn't they be sued if someone leaves a bar soaked like a sponge, hits a busload of kids and kills most of them? Knowing how we are south of that border, it sounds like an attempt to cut down on that. You'd know it wasn't a good idea to serve Joe if he'd been to several bars.
And you're still free to host Keggers at your place.....
If I'm out for a drink I'm not looking for trouble. I'd rather drink in a bar which I know to be frequented by like-minded people and not run the risk of something kicking off. Bar-tracking vs injury? No contest.
I'd heard this before, but the version I heard only had the troublemakers, underaged kids with fake IDs, fight picking alcoholics, etc, being put into the system, not everyone who might happen to want a beer in Vancouver (which is a ridiculous and practically impossible thing to do considering the amount of tourism they get).
I have no problem with bars keeping tabs on troublemakers. It's not big brother, either. These are normal citizens telling other citizens who's an asshole and who isnt.
Ie; I say to my friend "dude, don't go drinking with that guy, he's an asshole and will get you in a fight or in jail", am I now Big Brother? I hope so, because it'd be cool to be Big Brother.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
If I'm not mistaken, there were fairly recent reports of some bars that swiped their patron's licenses taking the information and selling it to data aggregation companies.
I see that this "network" of bars can aggregate a substantial database of/on their patrons and promptly "lease" this information to whomever cares to utilize such demographic data.
Any paranoid people among us care to comment?
Ever since I was 18 (1998) in Winnipeg (its in Canada, for those educated in the US) they have been doing this.
For all of the bars affiliated with the CanadInns Corp (www.canadinns.com) this was the standard routine for getting into a bar.
- empty pockets into a basket
- walk through metal detector
- pick up belongings
- hand bouncer your ID
- bouncer photographs the license
- pay cover
And if you happen to be male they also check your name against their database to see if you have been banned from the bar or caused problems on an earlier occasion.
This is really nothing new other than the fact that different owners are now sharing the information.
When it used to be called the hospitality business. If my neigborhood bars were as friendly as the DMV asking for pictures and keeping profiles on customer behavior... They wouldn't survive. This will not survive long... Think of your average college sports bar trying to keep up with photos of every out of town fan on game day.
Keep the tech out of bars for the good of us all. Even the idea of a glass that reports when a drink is getting empty is a waste of time. Remember that story? Work on the people skills and good judgement of your staff first.
A reason for people over 21 to use a fake ID.
This sort of policy will almost certainly backfire.
My driver's license has been demagnetized for over a year. I didn't see a benifit of having the ability to swipe my card, so I ran a magnet over it a few times. I wonder if they are going to let me in when my card fails on the swipe. This is a pretty good excuse for me to just buy cases of Canadian and watch the Canucks at home.
Pubcrawler.ca
.
Besides, if you don't like it, you could always just go next door to Burnaby or something. It's not like they're far apart.
...where everybody knows your name (and age, address, habits, history and picture.)
And Marty chuckles, but I can see, watching him that he's thinking, like maybe its not such a bad idea."
What I know about is Texas. And out here, you're on your own.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
From the article:
"But Cameron rejected the suggestion that the technology is a privacy invasion along the lines of George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.
"Most people are willing to give up a bit of anonymity for safety,"
Funny, I don't feel any safer with Sleazy Joe Barowner knowing my personal information. My privacy is a lot more valuable than a lousy drink at your cheap bar.
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
Theres going to be a booming busisness in fake ids though. I have absoloutly no problem with handing someone a fake id with the correct birthdate, and completely bogus other information. THe law requires them to check that i am over 21. That information is accurate, and therefore i am not defrauding anyone.
THe law does not require them to take a mugshot and collect private data for marketing.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
rub the stripe on your id on the part of the counter that says dont put your credit card here. Do this several times and your stripe is no good. Now just wait till they make it against the law to have a id without a working stripe
Normally I am against any sort of Big Brother sort of thing like this. However, I live in Vancouver and frequent many of the bars and clubs here. And as of late, there has been a marked increase in violence. Vancouver is home to many gangs such as Motorcycle and Asian Gange who do not always get along.
A few weeks ago there was a shootout at a popular night spot called Loft6, and numerous innocent bystandards were shot and the shooters have yet to be identified. If a system such as this were in place, they could just go through the logs and ID everyone in the place instead of relying on witnesses that tend to 'forget' things like this that they see.
The challenge will be ensuring that the bars make everyone go through the system. There are a lot of clubs that let certain people in the backdoors to avoid being caught on main entrance cameras.
There's no law in Vancouver that says you have to have a drivers license to be able to go to a bar. You can use any government issued ID (such as a passport). I don't think they would not be allowed to discriminate against people that don't drive or have had their license revoked.
In Winnipeg Manitoba(Which for you who dont know is in Canada), almost 90% of our bars have had this system in place for years and hasnt had any reportings of being abused.
Here is how our system works. You walk through a metal detector, get patted down, they put your drivers license under a magnifier/camera, and take your picture, both are saved in their system.
Now, if you do cause trouble, or the cops come looking for you, they simply say "yes he's here" and point you out. If you do something dumb at the bar, their computer is then programmed to ban you for a pre determined time..
I have no problem with this system at all, Im not doing anything bad, so I have nothing to worry about, as for photo identification, I think its a great idea, I have photo ID at work, School, when I goto the bar, etc... I feel alot safer knowing the establishments I patron know who is in their facilities
We get a lot of meat-heads going out to the bars in Vancouver, but lately it seems we're having shootings, some of them pretty bad. It seems to me this is an attempt to stop this sort of thing from happening. That and the fights, stabbings, etc.
One thing to note, this is not all bars, only those who want in on the system and are willing to shell out for it. There will be a lot of bars in the Vancouver area that don't want in on the system, or can't afford to do it, so it won't happen for them. Largely the ones doing this will be the uber-hip trendy bars anyway. I could care less.
I'm sure a system like this will become almost mandatory, as the insurance companies begin to charge triple for bars that don't participate in this system.
Sure, you can have a bar without this system, it's just it won't be financially viable as your montlhy insurance premium will be much higher than your competitors.
remember that Equifax has done this for years. I think credit is a lot more invasive than being allowed in bars IMHO; although, you may really like bars.
Bye!
not that i would anyways, since vancouver's bars really suck pole...
they fought the smoking ban. i actually enjoy going to a pub and not inhaling second hand smoke.
so "business is down" because of the smoking ban, but now they voluntarily shoot themselves in the foot with this crap? it was bad enough the post office swiped my DL to get my registered letters (they used to just look at it to see if i was me), but this is rediculous. and to the "kill the magnetic stripe" kiddies, BC DLs have bar codes too. my DL has a nice crease down the middle of it, rendering both the mag stripe and bar code useless.
Hmm... except that this is taking place in Canada, not the US. So you must really love this system if you're going to move there just to use it.
Full-Featured GPL Web Hosting Control Panel
Brings new meaning to the Cheers themesong "you wanna go where everybody knows your name..."
I can picture it now. Norm opens door, swipes ID. Photobot robot declares "Norm!" in computerized chorus of voices then snaps photo of Norm. Normbot then rolls over to the bar and asks for a glass of motor oil but is denied for a drunken battlebot fights with Cliffbot. Woodybot has had a hard disk failure and begins mumbling about his days back on the moisture farm with C3PO...
Hmm, my thoughs seem to have degenerated. what was I talking about?
California Makes Getting A License Easy. All you need is a fake mexican consular id and you can be anybody. Fudging the picture will take some work though.
The bar owners can call up your picture and information. so when you cause a fight, or don't pay your bill, then in a few min all the other bars in the system get an alert with your picture and name etc. so you then can't go down the road to a new bar and try the same thing again..(or in the future, go to any bar in the system without that bar knowing what problems you have caused at other bars before)
The funny thing about Vancouver is that as progressive as it is in many ways, the liquor laws are anachronistically draconian. This has resulted in few decent drinking establishments. There are few traditional-type pubs - just a lot of sleazy bars and clubs that tend to be populated with bimbos and knuckle-dragging frat boys. These aren't places you go to hang out and have a few drinks with friends. For this reason, this tracking practice doesn't upset me as it otherwise might. Seriously, the people that go to these clubs really *should* be tagged for identification. Maybe even collars or ankle bracelets.
In Vancouver, most normal people choose to go drinking in restaurants.
welcome their new American overlords.
well, I was speaking generally, forgetting about other state IDs and such, and actually, I'm in Michigan, US, myself... but I had a bar around here start using the swipe readers... didn't go back until they stopped using them... it was a dive, too, Holiday Inn bowling alley.... what a great dive.
If I was that drunk, I would have remembered it -- H. Simpson
That why I go to the Liquor store. It's only 6 blocks away, it's cheaper than going to a bar, and if my wife throws me out of the place, I can go sleep at the neighboors.
(/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
This gives identity theives a whole new area to get at. It's a bunch of bars, their security probably sucks. Somewhere in the chain is going to be a big weakness. Let the DB pile up for about 3-6 months...then hack it and release the info anyomously to the press.
It will probably die pretty quickly...or get much worse. Perhaps you shouldjust sell the list and not mention it.
Maybe we DID take the blue pill. You wouldn't remember anyway.
Just spewing thoughts here...
Can this system keep track of a 'bar tab' for me as well? Does it provide ANY value to me as a customer? (update: after RTFA, the answer given was 'give-up-your-anonymity-for-"safety"')
What if I get 'blacklisted'? How long does my name stay on the list?
Can I SEE the list? Will they at least TELL me I'm on the list?
Wait a second... Am I on this list automatically, once my picture/ID is recorded? Before I've even done anything? (See previous line)
I'm assuming the Police would LOVE access to this list, so they'll have it, officially or not. (update: I just RTFA; YES, they can subpoena info from the list)
I'm assuming local employers will LOOOVE access to this list... A reason to fire current employees or refuse future candidates.
(update: after RTFA, and I love the comparison of this system with renting a car. I didn't know going to a bar was so serious...)
Excuse me, but what do you mean city boundries? The local constabulatory need to know you aren't from OUT of town you know.
<Bad german accent>
Papers please.
</Bad german accent>
You can justify pretty much anything with at least some benefits. Hell, even SiteFinder was useful to some people, but we all know what it did to the masses.
Anything that groups together the general public as having the potential for mass-violence and then cards and categorizes them thus is not a good thing, despite fringe benefits.
The whole point of this system is to decrease violence in a bar by rejecting supposedly violent people. But the list in the demo graphic also include: excessive drinking, missed payment, and other(?).
Well, I'd first like to know what qualifies as excessive drinking? Does getting sick qualify? how about stumbling? what level of breathalizer? and is it a fair level? This seems a bit subjective. I'd also like to know what the other label means.
Finally, who is going to maintain this database? If the information is incorrect or if a bouncer, bartender, or server doesnt like you, how would you go about disputing your label? Who would you go to? How could you prove your case, since this seems like a guilty until proven innocent scenerio? Suppose you undertipped the server, does that mean you "missed payment"?
Seems like the problems with the airport no-fly list are coming back in the form of a no-bar list.
...small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri...
...use your passport instead. They won't have a swiper for it, but it proves your Date of Birth and has a picture, so they'd have to let you in.
Mais non?
Of course, there are valid uses of the cell phone tracking if everybody involved is aware of it.
So... How long until someone writes a virus and adds it to the back if thier Drivers License?
I figure most of these swipers are already running some version of Windows, so I doubt it would be really difficult for someone to do this.
Not that I'm advocating it or anything. Just a thought.
Come to think of it, whats to prevent you from changing the DOB on the stripe as well! This may make it easier to fake your way in when the swipers stop looking at the cards.
I'm pretty sure that if they could just swipe and get a green or red light most wouldn't look at all.
Technology, it seems, can cut both ways.
Eschew Obfuscation
Nice work, troll.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
One passing comment on my way out of the bar about how the 200 pound gorilla with no neck gaurding the door has a girlfried who's boob's are way too big - and I'm 'barred' from every local establishment within the speed of a mouse click. Just what we need. More bouncers on power trips. It sounds like this system is just screaming with abuse potential.
>But when I have a tidy savings and enough >expierience that I can start again in a town >anew, I just might be browsing Slashdot from >Canada.
Yes, and when you've saved enough to own a map, you'll realize that Vancouver is in Canada.
I guess they didn't put much emphasis on geography during the Cold War, eh?
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Big Brother my ass. If you don't want to get into this system, don't patronize any of the participating establishments.
The dictionary defines "Big Brother" as "An all-powerful government or organization monitoring and directing people's actions."
I fail to see how a collection of bars tracking entrances is "all-powerful."
This not true at all.
I lived in Chicago for a while. There, the police take your drivers license as bail when you are given a ticket. You get it back when you pay. In the meantime, your ticket is your identification.
Even though you could technically use the ticket to vote or drive, no bar would accept it.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
If you think this is 'intrusive' then vote with your dollars and take your business elsewhere. It's the one thing that will get businesses' attention.
But equating private property owners' conduct of business to 'Big Brother' is simply dishonest.
Now, if the government were requiring this, and the Canadian taxpayers were footing the bill for it, that would be another matter entirely...
Portland is right next door, and is MUCH more swank! ;)
It is telling, if not surprising, that in all of the media coverage, I have yet to hear the bar owners address the issue of privacy legislation. BC's forthcoming private sector privacy law, Bill 38, due to come into effect Jan 1st 2004, imposes very specific requirements upon organisations handling personally identifiable information, including collection, use, consent and access, among others. I'd be interested to hear BC's Information and Privacy Commissioner's view on this proposed scheme - as far as I can tell, the bar owners have not made any consideration of the legal duties this legislation will impose upon them.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
What if biometric authentication were used instead? Thumbprints, retina scans and the like
will probably eventually replace the pile of plastic cards that we're all forced to carry around. The practical problem with the Vancouver nightclubs' plan will be getting customers to go through with the photo ID card process. There will always be bars that choose not to be Orwellian, and there are other things to do in Vancouver besides clubbing. If biometrics is ubiquitous, though, schemes like this might become the norm, like in the movie Minority Report.
.
Bars tracking who comes and goes to prevent underage/disruptive individuals hardly sounds the same as having your everyday movements tracked
Here in Canada teens drinking at the bar isn't only an everyday activity: it's a way of life!
I'm not a disruptive person at a bar, but I'd rather not have people tracking where/when/how often I go to the pub. How long before this information is inappropiratly against someone to raise insurance (even though the driver has a perfect abstract) in a custody battle, or by employers. These records aren't confidential in the same way medical records are, it's certainly reasonable to question who may get access to them one way or another.
At least pot decriminalization/legalization is still in the works, I'll do my mind altering substances at poetry readings in beatnic cafes instead.
IIRC some nightclubs in Florida have signs posted that read "two photo IDs required."
They selectively enforce the rule, however, only demanding it of patrons who look like they will cause trouble, knowing that most people except for military personnel typically will have only one photo ID on them.
I can't help but think that this is going to hurt bartenders too.
Sure, maybe sometimes I might go with the "Hey, I've got nothing to hide" crowd, but having to have my license swiped and my photo taken might dissuade from just grabbing a beer at a bar. It won't be worth the trouble.
And tourists who don't understand what's going on and feel like they're being singled out are likely to tip the bartenders less too.
I can see how having a record of particularly troubling customers would be beneficial. For those of you out there in the restaurant world, what have you done in the past to deal with this? I do know that bars will sometimes call other bars to warn them about a customer they've just kicked out that is walking in their direction.
Seems like there could easily be less invasive technique. How about, if someone is getting close to be problematic, when they ask for another drink, the bartender goes, "Okay, but I'll need to get a photo and your license information to provide myself with legal protection in case you cause problems later on." Then, the person drinking gets to decide whether their privacy or that 11th drink is more important. That way, you won't bother people who aren't even close to be a problem (I generally have 1-2 drinks tops).
Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
I was thinking the same thing, and was going to comment along those lines. But once this data has been collected & stored somewhere, what's to stop it from being subpoena, or otherwise leaked outside of it's intended use? It really does get down to the point that once someone starts taking notes on your behavior, that information can end up anywhere.
It's up to the consumer to discourage these practices with their dollars; the regulars with privacy in mind will either not be photographed or will find new watering holes.
You go to a bar, or a club. You get carded, and somewhere it records that you were attending the premesis. Now, maybe you just came to dance, or even eat (pubs). Maybe you buy a drink for your girlfriend or a pitcher for your baseball team.
You drive home, you're not impaired.
You get into an accident, it wasn't avoidable.
Cops determine you were at the bar. If applicable they also determine you bought X amount of drinks.
You lose your license, are charged, and generally flushed through the system.
Who doesn't think this is possible or even likely to happen? Maybe you think that the added protection for the masses is worth flushing one individual down the drain. Maybe you don't think it can happen to you.
Got news for you people, it can happen to anyone... and even if you come up innocent you may still have to fight the system in an incriminating situation.
If they're worried about guns, there are these things called Metal Detectors. Yes, they are a pain in the ass too, they can have false positives.... but they don't run the potential of having my personal info sold out or me slammed in court/jail.
I live in BC, Canada. I used to live in Greater Vancouver, and enjoyed the bars there. Once, I was confronted by a bouncer simply because I was wearing black gloves at the bar and it was "making people nervous." Do I really want to run the gamet that somebody/something might not cause me problems in the system? No.
Now the question is, do you, and what are you willing to do to protect your freedom and privacy?
...those records are subpoena'd because there was a fight in the bar, or near the bar, or a DUI suspected to have been at the bar or whatever. The more databases you build, the easier you make it to actually pull together a profile when "big brother" sees the need.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
about swiping
So one little question which might be important is: Who do the bars sell their consumer lists to? Only organization altruistic who have YOUR best interest at heart?
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
BC drivers licenses also have a 2d barcode silkscreened on the back, they could be scanning that instead of the mag stripe (and it'd be much harder to 'accidentally' erase)
-- the cake is a lie
Not everyone wants to be in a bar with a crowd of drunken rowdies. The ones who will be the most averse to this will be the troublemakers who will go elsewhere.
I don't go to bars here in Vancouver, I do go to pubs in the U.K. (at least not near a football ground). I'm looking for a quiet, relaxed atmosphere where I can enjoy a drink with my mates or my wife (not necessarily in that order).
The picture taking is a bit much, though. With regards to potential swiping damage, should they use the 2D bar code as an alternative as BC's pretty driver's licenses have both?
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
I live downtown Vancouver, 2 blocks from the "granville row" that they refer to in the article.
I've played in the house band of one of these clubs, and know a LOT of people that work and play in these clubs.
I think this is a GOOD thing.
Even as we speak, a friend of mine is STILL recuperating from a severe shit-kicking that happened within one of the bars over 2 months ago.
She (yes, SHE) was minding her own business, when 2 guys bumped into her boyfriend, who turned around with the typical "WTF!?", and the 2 guys almost killed him. I wish I were being over-dramatic, but they literally ALMOST KILLED HIM. They knew how to fight, and they went at it. One of them even pulled out a collapsable baton and hit him while he was down. It should be mentioned that the guy who got shit-kicked was knocked down and unconscious before he even finished the "WTF!?".
At this point, his girlfriend jumped in and tried to get them to stop, so they started beating her with the baton.
This happened in less than 30 seconds, in front of a horrified bartender, and the guys were gone before any bouncers could arrive... and they weren't slow to get there.
Even now the bar-scene staff, Vancouver Police, and RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), are trying to figure out who the guys were and how to find them.
The sad part is that it's not an isolated incedent. In-bar muggings and shootings are on the rise, with a number of East Indian and Asian gangs going nuts on each other.
My whole philosophy is that it's private property, it's reasonable for the bars to ask you to do this to get in, and at the end of the day, you don't HAVE to go there. You don't like their policies, don't go.
If anything, I'd rather see this story being discussed from a "technology-based solution to a problem" angle rather than a knee-jerk "oh my God they're coming to get us, put on your tinfoil hats!" angle.
$0.02 (CDN)
It still is because I probably don't go to bars there that will implement this type silliness. Vancouver is an awesome city. You can get drunk off of really strong beer and smoke all the pot you want.
As for bars taking pictures of people, that's just stupid. I don't know about in Canada, but in Washington it's illegal to serve people that are visibly drunk. Rather than treating all your customers like criminals the bars should be hiring better bartenders and waitresses that can tell when someone is drinking too much. You are supposed observe the person's personality and when they start acting like assholes toss them out with the garbage, that's how it supposed to work. If they are just an asshole to begin with toss them out too, who needs 'em. If you can't handle your liquor don't drink with the big boys.
I have spent a considerable portion of my life in bars, and not always nice ones, and I have rarely ever seen a barfight. I know they happen but the fact is that the vast majority of people, probably over 95%, have never been involved in a bar fight. It doesn't take an expert to figure out who the troublemakers are - they are probably the same ones from last night.
LoRider
More aptly, "Big Bouncer"
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
In the ongoing effort to keep public places clear of intoxicated citizens and drunk drivers, some police agencies are using a controversial tactic - going directly into bars and restaurants in order to make arrests.
Tavern owner Jimmy Cirrito says it was intimidating and unnecessary to have some ten officers show up in SWAT-like attire. He notes police seemed to be tagging people at random, despite their telling bar owners they had undercover agents inside, calling in to provide specific descriptions of certain individuals.
All sorts of logs can be incriminating. It's just up to the prosecutor to know who to subpeona.
Your ISP? Websites you visit? Doubleclick?
At least this sort of thing is somewhat voluntary. You don't have to go to a bar. You have every right to buy your favorite drink, and drink at home, with friends. Have a quiet slumber/LAN party, and confiscate everyone's keys. You don't get that sort of service at bars.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Where I live (alberta) it's 18. IMO millitary age should be identical to drinking age. If someone's willing to defned my country I'll be damned if I'm not willing to let them drink with me.
But if it didn't mention that bars face immense fines (thousands of dollars) for giving alcohol to minors, then it should have.
That is the justification for swiping licenses. Tracking is very overboard, though.
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
Back when I was a doorman/bouncer, we used this thing called a memory. We had a network too...If I turfed somebody, they were barred for life. If I was out drinking at another bar, and I saw somebody I had barred, I'd tell the doorman that the guy was likely to be a problem and he'd do likewise. This was in Ottawa, which is a good sized city.
No bar in Vancouver that institutes this will ever get my business, and I live in that neck of the woods. And I drink and tip heavily (parse that how you will).
Bars that want my photograph before they'll take my money. What will they think of next?
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
Yup, the army's gotta protect you guys from that rogue moose state :D
Just kidding, I have nothing but respect for the Canadian military.
The problem with all of this information collection isn't the immediate positive use of it, but rather the long term potential for abuse once the information is out there. What happens if you piss off a bartender at one of these bars because you were hitting on his girlfriend or tipped him badly? He could put a black mark in the system and you'd not be able to get into a number of bars.
Also, what if somebody just has one bad night where things got a little out of hand and they get a black mark in the system? Like most bars, regardless of who starts a fight will kick out everybody involved. So what if you just get caught up in something accidentally?
The problem with these systems isn't that they'll help a bar to stop the most egregious offenders, but rather the possibility that the system will, either through mistake or intention, ban the innocent for no good reason.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
They have the right to ask for proof of age if the customer might be underage. Anything else is none of their damn business.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I'm sure the insurance companies, marketing folks, and others with a buck to make would be on this much faster than the government.
The problem with Montreal is that it's more or less owned by the Hell's Angels.
Take a passport, leave your DL at home 'cause you're not driving anyway.
If they give you guff and say that they don't accept passports as ID tell them to screw themselves and that you'll find a place that does.
For gawd sakes, Hezbollah accepts passports as proof of identity...
-dameron
Let's face it: private establishments can do what they want without violating inalienable rights, and if they don't want to do business with you anonymously, so be it. I don't think I'd go to such a bar, either, but that's just because I think it's bad etiquette - not because the bars are becoming Big Brother.
"You can never have too many elephants on your team."
the decriminalization of marijuana hasn't gone through yet. it is still a felony to be in possession. however I think he was more referring to the frequent "smoke-ins" in vancouver. where the police really do nothing but sit and watch people smoke pot in protest.
and yes decriminalization isn't legalization. I applaud you for being one of the FEW americans who actually understand that. now if you can tell your elected officials that I would be grateful. Pot is and will be illegal, but will be more like speeding, or running a red light than running someone down with your car.
The government is not necessarily the problem. The government is one possible source of control over your life. But only one. In America, at this point, corporations are more likely to be imposing on your freedoms than the government. The government has certain statutory limitations that still stand on what it's allowed to do to a private citizen, and the government has some tiny amount of accountability to the people since the people can exert a certain amount of influence by voting. Businesses, however, do not share these limitations, and people these days spend far more time interacting with businesses than they do interacting with their government.
OK, so we're at a point where anyone in this bar network can get the information on who's been drinking in the bars in this town. Now let's say, as a random aside, after a couple years, a small subsidiary of Time Warner just happens to buy one of these bars. Now let's say that two or so years later, you happen to be working for Time Warner, and your boss calls you in, looking at something on your personell file on the company intranet, and wanting to know why it is that the BarWatch statistics program is showing that you were in area bars for 35 hours this weekend when your project is two weeks behind schedule. Couldn't that time have been better spent on unpaid overtime...?
Or perhaps there will come a time in three years when you don't make rent, and your landlord simply promptly hands that debt off to a collection agency becuase that's an easy way of dealing with it. And all of a sudden when you swipe your drivers license at a bar, the bar, which has a certain complex deal with the credit union, is denying you entrance unless you pay the $200 that the computer says you owe to CCAA local #223..
These scenarios do not seem terribly realistic. However, it is definitely plausible. And a year ago, when slashdot was running the story that bars had started swiping drivers licenses instead of just looking at them, the people saying "THEY'LL JUST USE THIS TO TRACK YOU NEXT!" did not seem very realistic at all.
There's somehow this idea floating around that only the government wants to control you. This is a silly way to look at things. Anywhere in human social interactions that power collects is a source of danger.
All seek to enslave you, and I've already got this ravenous beast of plaster to deal with.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Just come to grips with this and everything will be fine.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Given what the world has evolved into, America's Constitution ought to have something like
"Congress shall make no law to force release of privately-held information without instantiated judicial review."
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
The metal detector part most of all. See I live in Arizona. Here, it's legal to carry a gun either openly or concealed. You need a permit to conceal it, but openly anyone can do, no permit required. Plenty of people do carry guns regularly too, or knives (covered by the same law as guns). However, they aren't allowed in bars. You either need to leave them in your car, or check them at the door.
So, being that lots of people have and carry guns, you'd think here would be a more likely candidate for metal dectors. Nope, never seen one in any bar. They just trust you'll obey the law. Seems that people do, too, I haven't heard of any bar shootings.
Well it then strikes me as odd that Canda, which has far more restrictive handgun laws, would find it necessary to do this. I wonder if it is parionia or if bargoers in Canada like to pack heat illegally.
Ive got a bar, with homebrew at home.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Entering and leaving the bar *ARE* our everyday movements.
paintball
In addition to simply demagnetizing the stripe, you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21...or your name is really something else, et cetera.
With barcodes you can always put a sticker with a new barcode over the original barcode. You would have to be looking really hard to notice, if done right (remember people printing up new UPC barcodes for Wal Mart products?)
The only type of machine readable document implement that is difficult to change are simultaneously human readable...the readable characters on the passport (found on the first page on most passports and have lots of little >>>>>>>> thingies) were originally conceived on a privacy basis, because people would always know what's encoded in their passports. I cite the security advantages, since a human can read what the machine can read, and its easy for a human to double check that.
Not that they would. When a human has a machine to read a document, they will almost always just trust what the machine says, and not check what the document says.
Liquor regulations in BC were recently amended to permit 4 AM closings from 2 AM, with municipal permission.
Vancouver city council has permitted bars along Granville street to remain open to 4 AM and bar owners are very happy about increased revenue. At the same time they want to be seen as good neighbours and reduce crime related to the later closings. So it is part PR move and part reality check.
I moved to Calgary two years ago now and am quite used to a similar procedure that has been in place at the busier bars such as Cowboys, which can be quite rowdy at times. Not all bars use the license scanning system, but many do, and I have yet to see a pub or lounge that does. A friend of mine had a few too many, caused a disturbance and was barred from Coyote's for a time thanks to the system. Frankly, he deserved it and the system worked. I would assume that the same would apply in Vancouver, the rowdier bars will implement the system while pubs and lounges will not.
Apparently they have metal detectors in some bars in Winnipeg, but none of the bars I visited on my trip had them. Again, probably those places that experience trouble from rowdy guests use them. I have never seen metal detectors in any bar in Canada that I have been to.
This is technology at its best, working for the benefit of small business owners. They have a right to refuse service, and this helps them to exercise that right before something bad happens, rather than after.
There are plenty of places Big Brother is urgently applicable today. Just not here.
Central to George Orwell's image is the notion of coercion. You are certainly coerced if the government requires you to participate in an invasive information system by law. And there are many ways you can experience more subtle coercion "by policy" as well... because you ostensibly have the freedom not to participate, but only in theory.
This seems like one case when this kind of technology is OK - because participating in it is something people can choose to do - or not - by exercising their options in a healthy, competitive marketplace.
For the sake of comparison, POTS telephone companies (regional monopolies; barrier to entry: illegal), or CPU companies (only two x86 players; barrier to entry: inconceivable) are not "healthy, competitive" marketplaces.
Monopolies like Microsoft requiring the installation and maintenance of DRM systems? Coercion, possible because of an (extremely) unhealthy marketplace.
Verizon saying "I'm going to sell your phone records to marketers?" Coercion. Where are your alternatives if you want to opt out?
But bars aren't like that at all.
I couldn't see myself going to any place that did this, but I don't think I could say they shouldn't be allowed to do it. Let them track and photograph their patrons in ways even the Vegas casinos won't do. No one forces you to go a bar. Opening a bar is within the grasp of many, many entrepeneurs. This means (within reason) you will be able to opt out. This kind of security measure should succeed, or fail (and who can guess which, in the end?), in that marketplace based on its merits.
What I worry about? If that's what it takes to keep bars running well, what does it say about our society?
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
This way, any guy who works at the bar, or is friendly with the bouncer, can find out who that really hot chick is at the end of the bar. Get her home address, wait outsdie for her when she gets home. Call her to say hi.
Dont tell me it wont be used for this. I used to work someplace making IDs on a computer system. The security guys would come in all the time and ask "Hey, girl with brown hair, blue eyes, in this building, whats her name?" Pull up the list of pictures, get the info. Then they can go look at the security system to look up her schedule, then just happen to meet her going in or coming out of the building. Theres a very, very thin line between manufactruing an excuse to meet a cute girl, and stalking.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Hum, I've lived in Fla for a while now and have been going out to bars down here since I turned 21. (And even a little before that.)
I've never seen this anywhere that I've been and that includes North Fla, North Centeral Fla, Centeral Fla, and most points inbetween.
Maybe this is just a South Fla kinda thing but I even go diveing down there sometimes and have not seen it. (Granted I don't go down there as often as I am around the other places mentioned but still.)
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
As long as it's private businesses fine. I won't frequent those places, but fine. Big Brother is not bars banding together it's the government tracking you and mandating that you submit to the tracking. You still have a choice to drink here or not. I simply choose not too. If enough people take the same stance (unlikely) then it will go away eventually if not they they'll track people and the possibility of a true Big Brother coming along at some point in the future to take the data for other uses is a danger. And so to reiterate I won't drink here, but it's not currently Big Brother.
If Canada did become part of the US, however, Americans would be foolish to assume that we would simply melt into the "melting pot". Your world would change PDQ. Canada has never been a "melting pot" -- mostly because we were a nation established by two distinct but seperate cultures. We actually believe in things like socialized medicine (even though we're having an increasingly hard time putting our money where our mouth is on that point). I seriously doubt that you would ever see another republican elected to the White House. We really don't like the idea of invading other countries, and have never done so unilaterally. I don't think a lot of Americans would like their country much if Canada was a part of it. Maybe it would be for the best if you just left us out...
Never at a loss for words... because of the voices.
If I ran a local bar you can sure bet that if you have a past of indecent or violent public drunkenness in my establishment, that I will be keeping an eye out for you, and I will pass the word along to my employees too; they see you, and you're out.
Heck, this could just as well be a local resteraunt, a supermarket, or a mall, rather than a bar, and the policy is going to be the same; if you can't handle yourself in my establishment, if you are disruptive or violent towards other patrons, then you are getting kicked out any time I catch you on the premises; no excuses, no questions asked.
And do you know what? This is the same sort of thing that has been going on for thousands of years, this communication between local business owners. Everyone used to know who the trouble-makers, the drunkkards, the petty thefts, were in town, and if they didn't and someone caught you, you better believe that word is going to get around town quick.
The only problem now is that people are more mobile, populations are larger, establishments have more patrons than they can know on a regular basis, and this has really lead to the break down of that sort of traditional information network between local shop owners having lunch down at the deli or whatnot.
This expectation of total or near-total anonymity is unrealistic. Sure, there will be some bars that will serve you "no questions asked" still, but these might not be the sorts of places you want to hang out in, if you know what I mean.
The only concern here should be things such as slander or libel possibly arising from mismanagement of this informatmion. You might want to get legislation to ensure a certain amount of responsibility with this information, and of course if you are harmed by mismanagement or misuse of this information, of course you also have the recourse of a civil lawsuit or possibly criminal charges.
By going out into public in the first place, you give up a certain amount of legitimate expectation to anonymity.
If you get drunk and start cussing up other patrons, sexually harrassing other patrons, starting fights, or pulling weapons, you damn well better believe that you have no expectation to anonymity.
You people are almost suggesting that you have some sort of right to have your reputation not sullied even when you make an ass of yourself in public. You have no such right or expectation; the suggestion is laughable. The only legitimate expectation you have here is against the slanderous or libelous mismanagement or misuse of your information.
Unless of course you can convince the public to pass legislation mandating that your good reputation not be tarnished; that no one be allowed to talk about the time you got drunk and made an ass of yourself hitting on the female bartender.
Learn to live with the consequences of your behavior. Just because you can spout off on an internet message board and change your name and no one will be the wiser, doesn't mean you have some sort of legitmate expectation to similar behavior in public.
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
- One that supports, protects, or champions someone or something, such as an institution, event, or cause; a sponsor or benefactor;
- The owner or manager of an establishment, especially a restaurant or an inn of France or Spain;
- One who possesses the right to grant an ecclesiastical benefice to a member of the clergy
- A guardian saint;
- (Rom. Antiq.)A master who had freed his slave, but still retained some paternal rights over him. (b) A man of distinction under whose protection another person placed himself;
Wow! It doesn't seems like Vancouver's bars are polite or correct with their patrons!Less is more !
What if they decide to do any of the following?
I'm surprised they can do that. I've read on the aclu site that you gain Miranda rights and are considered "arrested" if your credentials are confiscated.
::sigh:: Oldthinkers...
Etiquette is etiquette. He kills his mother but he can't wear grey trousers.
Acutally, the barcode on the BC driver's license is precisely done like that... it's looks all wierd, not like a not a "regular" barcode that you see in Walmart.... not sure if it's easily reproducible.... could be I suppose.
They have it in my town (not in FL). Selective enforcement from what I've seen. A couple liquor stores demand two picture ids (and spend a good five minutes staring at the damned things...they don't like my out of state license). A lot of the bars have signs saying you must have two picture ids, but I've never seen it enforced.
It's a college campus though, so everyone basically has two ids--license and school id. I don't know how else they could really expect people to have two picture ids.
At University of Illinois in Champaign, most bars had a variation of this: They had a camera at the door, it'd grab a picture of your face, then they'd slide your ID under another camera that went onto the same video tape - thus giving them a picture of the ID *AND* of you.
Why?
So when the cops showed up and busted underagers who got rid of their fake IDs when they saw the cops coming (which would be wise, since using one in IL gets you a 1 year suspension of your license), the bar could point to the video tape and say "We checked this person, they gave us this ID, and yes, they look like the picture on the ID", thus sparing the bar the nasty fine and potential liquor license revokation from letting in someone underage.
paintball
Ah yes, if you didn't read the article though you might not realize that.
Though most people would probably guess Vancouver = Canada, it's not the ONLY Vancouver.
There's a Vancouver in Washington state, USA.
There's a Paris in Texas as well as France.
There's an Alexandria in Louisiana as well as Egypt.
There's a lot more that I could spout off, but I think you can see the point.
In the article, the example picture on the right lists four offenses:
Fighting
If you regularly start brawls, then this doesn't work out. But what happens when someone starts a fight with you and you only fight back to defend yourself?
Missed Payment
Understandable, unless the barman overcharges you, you disagree, and suddenly you're banned from every bar in town because some jerk tried to swindle you.
Excessive Drinking
"Get out and stay out, this bar isn't for drinkers!" This is just stupid. You take one too many tequila shots on your birthday and get sick. Banned from the bars.
Other
With no further explanation as to the incident? The potential for abuse is astounding. What happens when you dump the owner's sister/brother? He can put you down as an "other" offender and get you banned from Vancouver nightlife, with no way to officially contest the matter.
All of these are really scary. In all of these situations you're SOL. Doesn't this fall under vigilantism? I know Canada's all for personal freedoms, but isn't this going too far?
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
It's just a 2d barcode...same principle...slightly more information in the barcode, rarely are they encrypted (though I think the Georgia 2d is.) It's an ISO 2d barcode standard either way.
When I went to ICBC to change my address, they taped a white piece of paper with my new address to the back of the card, obscuring both the bar code and magnetic strip.............
What a load of crap! Barwatch, a coalition of Vancouver bar and nightclub owners, Already the bars scan your driver license. This not hooked to the police system. This is a voluntary system that bars participate in and share information with each other. Do you realize how much fights, stabbings, and shooting cost a bar? We've had a lot of bars closed because of this. I live in Vancouver and I've seen it happen. People here are fed up with the losers getting into the clubs and ruining a good night. If it was hooked up to the police, then yes, I'd freak out. It's a violation of our privacy rights in Canada. Everything else is tracked by those points cards from everystore. Does my safety outweigh the privacy I am giving up? You decide...
Had you performed the miracle of actually reading the article, you would have noticed that you are completely wrong: the system will initially be installed at "about 35 bars and clubs."
Furthermore, some people have greater ambitions: "Bloor said police hope the Liquor Control and Licensing Board will endorse such a tool, so that all bars in the city would be required to use it."
"The good reader is a rarer swan than the good writer."
What those of you who do not live in Vancouver don't know is that our driver's licenses contain magstripes and PDF417 barcodes (two dimensional; they store as much as a magstripe in a slightly smaller area).
I've scanned both the PDF417 and the magstripe, the former using a digital camera and some freely available software, and the latter with a magstripe reader.
Both the magstripe and the barcode contain the same data: your driver's license number, full address, name, height, weight, sex, eye and hair color, date of birth, and probably a few other pieces of information that I can't recall.
Swiping your magstripe or having the barcode read gives away many of the critical pieces of information required to steal your identity.
If you're thinking of going to a place that does this, just don't. Do you really trust your critical information to the brutish sub-morons that are known as bouncers?
The photo in the Vancouver Sun article shows the card readers they're using: these are devices you can buy for $90 or less if you look around a little. There's basically nothing to stop a crooked bouncer from buying his own and swiping everyone's ID through it for a whole night.
Go somewhere else. Just something to consider: bars and clubs are there to make money. They're usually not owned by huge corporations. They don't have infinitely deep pockets, and if the atmosphere they set isn't right, people will go elsewhere. More than in most industries, capitalism works here: consumer choice wins. Boycotting establishments that do this can actually be highly effective.
Finally, if the potential for fraud doesn't bother you enough, just oppose this on general priciple.
Nix absolutably seriousness.
...they should remember that bartenders exist on tips.
That's all I have to say.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
In the busy hours, you're going to be stopped to pay a cover charge anyways. I doubt it'll slow things down badly. After all, after people get used to it you'd just swipe and pay. Not a big deal. Mind you, I likely won't be going to any of these bars in the future. Perhaps I'll just stick to the bars I have on campus at UBC.
Proving that someone got tanked at your establishment and then killed Mother Teresa on his way home? These idiots need to think twice about the liability issue.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The Brits would know the difference. I mean Canada is on better terms with Britan than the US. They still sing God Save the Queen and feature her on their currency. They are commonwealth and a citizenship in other commonwealth nations makes it easy to get a job there. Heck, until 1980 they hadn't even fully become sperate. I don't remember what it was, fairly trivial, but Britan wasn't totally out of Canada until then technically speaking.
Wow, what a troll... where do I begin. Oh yeah, "God save the queen"? I think my father said he used to sing that, back in a one room school house in the 50's.
I'm not sure that Canada is actually on better terms with Britain than the U.S., given the whole Iraq thing, but in general, perhaps that's been true overall.
The commonwealth thing? Not a chance... my South African friend finds it much easier to go to the U.S. than Canada. Canadians and Americans can visit and/or work in each others' country more easily than either can visit anywhere else in the world.
In 1982, Canada signed a new constitution (perhaps that's what you were referring to) which replaced the British North America act as the original "constitution", which was passed into law in Britain in 1867, giving the Dominion of Canada self-government.
Britain is still not "out of Canada", since technically speaking, Elizabeth still holds the title, "Queen of Canada", and is technically our head of state. Certainly that may not last much longer, but it is the case right now. No hard feelings, just time to move on, if we have the time to do all the paperwork, which we don't, thanks to all the hullaballoo with the U.S. these days.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
... is merely a formality. "We have full backing from our members"
> even though the driver has a perfect abstract
just in case your sources were not done in proper APA formatting.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
When is this going to end? Or better question, WILL this ever end? It's getting to the point that I can't walk into public restroom to take a leak without having it recorded in a half dozen different goddamn databases.
Yeah, people will hopefully boycott those bars using systems like this. And that just kills me, because my best friend is a bartender in a Vancouver bar. I don't know if her bar is doing this yet. If it does, I'm scared business may drop off enough that she loses her job.
I cannot BELIEVE this line from the 2nd article:
"Proponents of the machines assert that any invasion of privacy is not alarming because there's not much privacy left to invade. "
BULLSHIT! Am I excused from mugging someone because they were mugged an hour earlier and were left with only a dollar? Does that somehow make it OK for me to take that last dollar?
Only on
What's weirder, that they will do this, or that doing it hasn't turned the scene into a ghost town? I think it is a bad sign that there is a nonzero number of people willing to subject themselves to this treatment. In fact, I consider that to be a scarier thing than the idea that the bar people will do the ID check stuff.
Why hasn't this created an underground network of speakeasies already?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I live in Texas, and need an affordable way to cool the wort during brewing (and this is especially important for lager) On the upside, the temperature is dropping so it is brew time now! Woohoo!
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
Depends on how you define left and right. Would you consider Cuba left or right? How about North Korea or China?
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
How about a strong magnet?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There are two reasons that I believe it will spread like wildfire.
A friend used to own a night club. He took great steps to create a safe environment because he knew that women go where they can have fun and be safe, and the men go where the women are. Never the less this is a drinking establishment and there is only so much you can do. With each alcoholic berverage served the probabiltiy of a fight breaking out reaches closer to 1.
And each fight that starts on your property brings a potential lawsuit. And defending lawsuits is expensive. For each law suit he would have to spend at least $5000 (assuming he doesn't even have to show up in court) and sometimes as much as $30,000 just to prove he was not at fault.
If the proposed id tracking system saves him just one lawsuit per year then it more than covers the cost of implimentation and probably covers the cost of lost business. Soon insurance companies will require the system or they will jack up the cost of premiums for club owners. When that happens the system will be everywhere and when that happens Vancouver club goers might have little choice.
Vancouverites should fight to nip this one in the bud.
If you could walk into any bar, and say... "Give me the usual." Of course, encroachments of any privacy start with apparently useful compromises.
You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco
WTF is next?
... "
... thank you!
You: "Ummmm I'd like to order a drink
Bartender: (in German accent) "Paperz Pleaz!"
I'll drink at home
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
Big Brother is alive and well? What the fuck?
I'm surprised bars haven't started doing this earlier. When their principal product is a substance that IMPAIRS JUDGEMENT (judgement like when to stop taking more of it), I would think they are WELL within their right to make sure that you, the voluntary consumer of this stuff, don't cause their establishment too much trouble. And if they can find out that you just smashed up 3 bars up the road and are going for 4, that's great. More power to them. It's their place of business.
It's not like bars are a fucking government service. You don't pay your Bar Tax on the federal, state and local level to maintain access to alcohol. You go to someone's house, you abide by their rules. You go to a place of business, you abide by theirs. If you don't like it, go to the liquor store for something, go home and rent porn, if you can't get a date with a sober woman.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
Vancouver is on the left coast of Canada, eh. Near BC.
Seriously, its easier to learn how to read barcodes then it is to read Kanji, for example.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Why should someone who goes to a club automatically be assumed to drink to much, be reckless or irresponsible? Many clubs have live bands I'm sure there are at least SOME people who go there who don't drink, yet you would still lable them as irresponsible drunks simply because they entered a bar and were logged into the system.
Uh, in BC. Move along, nothing to see here.
And you know what? As the population grows, the masses will welcome these automated devices. Why? Because they will be touted as "express lines." Ooooh now there's a concept. Don't like the wait in line? Here's a special line if you want to release all your personal information. This is happening in supermarkets in the form of discounts. People like discounts. People also don't like waiting in line when things could be "much quicker and more convenient" when a machine is involved. This won't happen in bars though.
Take for instance in England. Great example of what I'm talking about. Instead of toll booths, to make everything "more convenient", they'll just track where you're going! Saves money on building toll booths and paying people, plus it saves YOUR time. How could you resist? Wouldn't want to create any jobs and waste money on human assets would we.
rm -rf ~/.signature
You only need to be 18 to drink. I'm sure there are 16 year olds trying to get in, but most of the 'drinking age' types can do it legaly.
Also, isn't U of I technicaly in Urbana?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I don't know if anyone realizes this but would you rather go to a bar where there's the possibility of meeting unstable people who could mug or beat the crap out of you, or to one that scans your license to make sure that you're amoung people who you could trust not to kill you? I'm sure the bars wouldn't have decided to go this stance if there wasn't a developing problem to begin with. Casino's in Vega after all track you and I don't see anyone complaining about that there.
I'm glad to see that Big Brother is alive and well on the left coast
Except it's not the authorities imposing this, it's the bars.
Civil libertarians can still boycott those bars.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
"My whole philosophy is that it's private property, it's reasonable for the bars to ask you to do this to get in, and at the end of the day, you don't HAVE to go there. You don't like their policies, don't go."
I like your attitude. It makes me wish there were more people with the same attitude so we wouldn't have this rash of legislation banning smoking in bars and night clubs. I'm not a smoker, but it's asinine to force everyone to stop smoking just because you want to frequent a particular bar or club. You know what the environment is like. If you do not want to be in that environment, don't go.
"I swear I won't break you if you let me take you where the willows never weep" -- Switchblade Symphony
You dummy, the government isn't enforcing this. It's just a group of bars in one city.
These places are nightclubs (dancing, etc), where people wait in lines ot get in on Friday and Saturday nights. Trust me, theres a Queue. And unless you ar ebar staff, know the bouncer, or are bigger than he and all his buddies are, you ain't jumping line.
You are thnking more of a pub where people go after the game to get drinks etc. Trust me that's not what theyre talking about here.
Actually, in Canada the law requires that you check if you are over 19.
:P
Not that I am counting
*mocks the draconian US alcohol laws
Actually, that wouldn't help much as British Columbia driver's licenses have bar-coded information on them as well as the magnetic stripe.
Still #1 -- Lonely Gay Geek
- The organization in question, Barwatch, donated $5000 to the incredibly right-wing Liberal party (go figure) that currently runs the province. The same organization was behind a fight with the worker's compensation board of BC regarding the rights of workers not to have to work in a cloud of second-hand smoke. The Liberals changed the law to remove the WCB ventilation requirements.
- The same liberals have passed (I think) some privacy legislation that allows disclosure of personal information collected by observation at a performance, sports meet, or a similar event that is open to the public (Think Tampa superbowl), and allows organisations not to tell individuals what information they have, "if the disclosure of the personal information would reveal confidential commercial information that if disclosed, could, in the opinion of a reasonable person, harm the competitive position of the organization". In other words, it's pretty wide open.
- This isn't the first time Barwatch has cranked up surveillance of its patrons: This article mentions that video taping has been going on in Barwatch bars for three years before the article was written, in 1999. It also demonstrates that while these programs are justified by safety concerns, they are also used for marketing data.
- These guys have some power: Apart from the smoking legislation, Barwatch also lobbied to implement bus service later, and allow bars open later. Recently, the BC Liberal party allowed bars to be open until 4 AM on Fridays, and Translink began offering night bus service to at least SFU.
- On his geocities resume web site, Bradley Shende claims to be the Barwatch founder. According to his site, "Barwatch is an original concept. It's purpose was to establish communication between licensed establishments and the various branches of municipal law enforcement and regulation to create a forum of co-operation rather than adversity, and to set standards by which we would all operate our licensed premises. The organization has been a success over the years and is now branched out into the US and all over Canada." Apparently he is also "a quick study on systems and software". Nice win2k experience, Bradley.
- Barwatch has changed their phone number, and no longer has a web presence (www.barwatch.org as posted on Shende's web site). I was unable to contact them before posting this. The often cited name of the chair and spokesman of Barwatch is Vance Campbell.
I'm usually a proponent of strong authentication; I sign all my mail with gpg. However, I know that this makes me uncomfortable and I probably won't be going to these establishments.The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
Do you have any details on this? I am genuinely curious... In many ways, it is a very beautiful city. How did this happen? It just doesn't make much sense. It doesn't seem Montreal is the same city as it was when the world's fair was held there and their amazing subway system was implimented.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
In Canada the legal age is 19 in most provinces, except Quebec, where its 18.
:P
Not that I am counting
*mocks the draconian US alcohol laws
I just moved from philadelphia to vancouver and let me tell you, EVERYONE thats not 19 and consumes alcohol at one time or another has a fake ID(I guess its more believable that a kid is 19 than 21)... This will be very bad for them, and very good for burgeoning fake ID sellers(usually criminals of another nature) who have to sell new ID's that actually have data on the stripe.
Slartibartfast:"Is that your robot?"
Marvin:"No, I'm mine."
The ticket is state certified ID valid anywhere. Bars just choose not to honor them.
Honestly it isn't a big deal, most people have passports...
I don't read or respond to AC posts
If they have a data trail for each visit, they can also mine for frequency of visits. How long till they start providing this data to insurance companies? People who frequent bars most = statistically more likely to have health problems, motoring accidents, lose their jobs, etc.
Before everyone yells 'privacy policy' I will point out that most (all?) medical insurers will not insure you unless you give up the right to privacy of your medical records.
IMHO, legal privacy protections are ultimately useless, as soon as any record exists, powerful organisations will find a way to obtain it.
I read Canada on the screen, my brain intended to type Canada but my fingers were momentarily posessed and I typed "US". Gaah! That's what a day spent removing wallpaper does, it turns a perfectly good brain into gunge.
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
Employees have a right to a safe working environment, sucking back the second hand smoke of a couple of hundred yahoo's a night, is not a safe working environment.
Will this collected information be subject to data retention/privacy laws?
Just judging from past experience the "network" will be weakly protected at best. -PHiZ
Pretend I said something meaningful or insightful here.
How often do I have to check? Can I just do it once, on my birthday, or do I have to check again everytime I go into a bar?
More to the point, how do I know I'm not lying? Should I ask to see photo ID?
Actually, the PumpJack, a gay bar in Vancouver, has begun swiping AND scanning people's ID.
So much for the right to privacy...
Still #1 -- Lonely Gay Geek
I think you'll find that Sweden has the highest per-capita immigration in the world
I think it's bad; I wouldn't frequent such bars.. I think it says something about the owners, and their mentalities.
That said.. as long as this is a private venture, and not a government pressured one, it's not so bad....
Normally I side with the people that say that this is an invasion of privacy, but in this case, I see no problem with it. Bars are privately owned businesses.. you aren't forced to go into them, and they have a right to try and protect their property by screening people, just like they have the right to throw you out.
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
For the Americans reading this, the BC Liberals are to the left of every state you have. Calling them "incredibly right wing" is like calling North Korea a triumph of the market system.
They took over from the NDP, who are like your Green party, winning the province with a 73-2 majority (2 seats since lost to infighting).
Actually if this helps, think of British Columbia as California's communist college roommate.
My list of multiplayer
... is that when a fight breaks out at a bar, it's often somewhat difficult to prevent the people involved from leaving before the police get there. This way, besides having your info, they've got a cuurent picture of you - that picture can be used to check with the remaining patrons - "So, was this the person that smacked the guy over there with a bottle?" or with the bartender as to who the people involved were.
t ml.
I believe this whole thing was triggered by shootings in a club in Vancouver - http://www.vancourier.com/083203/news/083203nn2.h
It'd make a big difference for cases like that.
~ Leilah
I thought Big Brother, in general, referred to your government tracking your movements/actions. Bars tracking who comes and goes to prevent underage/disruptive individuals hardly sounds the same as having your everyday movements tracked to create a profile.
It seems people are willing to accept things from the private sector that they would never tolerate from their government. How is it any better for a business or group of businesses to track your activities than it is for the government? Personally, I find both possibilities equally troubling.
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
Vancouver Bars Experience Unexplained Dropoff in Sales
British Columbia Homebrew Beer Supplier Reports Record Profits
I don't know about you all, but when I go out for a beer, I'm not in the mood for mickey mouse bullshit hassles, I get enough of those at work
I live in downtown Vancouver and many of these clubs are within 3 or 4 blocks of my apartment. The funny thing is few of the locals go to many of these places because they suck. They are full of kids from the suburbs. Clubs in Vancouver are the weak link in the nightlife. The restaurants and parties are much better. Skipping on these dives will be easy. There are a few decent places but they are the exceptions.
Some background on the Vancouver nightclub scene:
There was a high profile shooting recently at one of the better spots and this seems to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
There have been several long-standing highly publicized conflicts within the organized crime world. This may be a way for authorities to keep tabs on them a little better.
Vancouver recently started allowing clubs to stay open until 4am. Not everyone was happy about this and some of the powers that be seem to be looking for a reason to go back to a 2am closing. The nightclubs are on tin ice and they know it. They have to at least look like they are making an effort.
Sorry, but i dont buy the 'its for the kids' sort of attitude.
There is NO reason to give up your freedom and privacy for false security.
You would think people would have learned that by now..
Anyone here remember Hitler? Stalin?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Well, I'm once again glad I don't live in Canada. Despite being a little bit too old to frequent the nightclubs, I'm still disgusted that things have come to this in Vancouver.
I would never patronize an establishment that wants to swap my information with other nightclubs in some sort of database/network to determine if I'm allowed in or not. I've never caused anyone ANY problems in a bar or nightclub in my whole life, but I've had a couple incidents where I was nearly implicated in things, simply because a drunk buddy did something stupid while we were out. I'd be really mad if I was blacklisted from clubs because some guy I was with (who I might not even really be good friends with to begin with) decides to tip the billiards table to get a stuck cue ball loose, gets in a fight for no good reason, or what have you.
I mean, something like that is bad enough to deal with if it happens when you're at a place you like going to. (People remember you, and associate you with the trouble-makers.) But to have everyplace in town automatically keep you out? Crazy!
The PIPED Act will start being enforced for private companies on January 1st, 2004 here in Canada. You can read about this legislation here. This will make it illegal to scan your driver's license and store it in a computer and/or share with other companies without your knowledge and consent.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Then pretty soon someone gets in a fender bender on the way home and the other party's lawyer subpeonas all the nightclub swipe records. You had two drinks that night, under the legal limit but you could've avoided the accident if you hadn't been drinking at all. It'll be a stalker's delight to hack those records. Hey, that cute blonde is at such and such club with her friends. Pretty soon the cops will be watching the records, just looking for known felons. Maybe just to see who's out drinking tonight and maybe they run a hot sheet on vehicles of people visiting more than two clubs in a night.
There's always a good reason for big brother to intrude on your life.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Come on, who else visualized a bunch of bears linking themselves together with Cat5?
For some corporation to force employee's into a toxic waste dump without protection? Get your ass in there, or lose your job?
Use your head, there are numerous laws designed to provide a safe work environment for employee's, this happens to be one of them. Your right to suck back a thousand different carcinogens ends as soon as you are blowing your fucking smoke into someone elses face.
If you want to kill yourself with throat and lung cancer, do it somewhere you aren't effecting anyone else.
1. so what is the profit for the customer? i am open to the whole member card idea, but why not make it worth the patrons time? add the credit card information for single payment and give discounts for good customers.
2. if you go through the trouble of collecting information, you are responsible to secure privacy. as the information has to be released in case of a subpoena, make it optional.
so what makes this membercard any better (or worse) than your driver's license? just another plastic card (not) in my wallet.
Don't think that this is a leftist kind of activitiy.
What in THE hell are you talking about? The "left coast" is another way of saying WEST COAST -- as in the west coast of Canada.
Oh.. an AC. I should have known.
The
You could be evil if they do this.
... which is always fun to do. After a while you might "cut a deal" and waive the request if they waive theirs...
Ask to see their liquor licence. I don't know what Canada's laws are here regarding the licences required to sell alcohol, but if it's like other places they need a licence to sell liquor. What if you are risking being arrested for drinking in unlicensed premises? You definitely want to cover your butt so you don't get into trouble. So ask to see it before you enter. If they won't show it to you, well it's no problem for you to go elsewhere.
You'll hold up the queue
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Not in Canada, only time you legally have to show ID is if you are driving. Of course the cops can harrass you if you refuse to show ID and good luck doing anything about it. The Vancouver police investigate themselves when you lodge a complaint.
Dave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Interesting concept, I hope they get good use out of it for the next 3 months. After that, they're toast, because that's when (01Jan04) Canada's privacy legislation covers all businesses in Canada. Currently only firms that either:
... are covered by the legislation.
a) transfer identity information over provincial boundaries b) collect information on behalf of the Federal or Provincial governments
or c) are a government agency
A couple of points:
a) The business must provide specific details as to what, if anything, they will do with personal information collected;
b) They must get your specific permission to expand on whatever they said they would do with it when they collected the information;
c) They must not collect more information than is absolutely neccessary to perform whatever purpose they described in a) above;
d) The information must be collected for a bona fide reason; ie if they don't need your name to sell you a pack of gum for cash, forget it;
e) If there is no bona fide business reason to collect such information, they must sell you whatever service they provide when you refuse to identify yourself.
I can casually see several legal objections to what the bars are intending to do. Look for this to die a quiet death.
I'll bet that less than 1% of Slashdot readers has actually been out to a club in the last year.
It depends.
It's extremely rare in the US that the law will specify what forms of identification a private business will be obligated to accept, when that business' choice of ID could potentially create a liability. Admittedly, Canada is different, but it's probably not THAT different.
As a general rule, a supposed identification lacking a recent photograph is unreliable. A document whose credibility rests upon nothing but the holder's word is also unreliable. As are documents which are based upon unreliable documents. That's why there's so much concern over California issuing licenses to illegals: An illegal will not likely be presenting any credible proof of identity to Cal DMV. Accordingly, if I decide to move to California and change my name from Happy go Lucky to Gray Davis, affect an accent, and add ten years to my actual age, I'm not sure what leverage DMV would have to deny me a license.
Fine. Whatever. However, 47 of the other 49 states have made certain efforts to actually protect their driver licensing against such frauds. And we in those states are now less willing to presume that a CA DL actually means anything at all.
As for having a license revoked...here in Colorado, DMV will issue an identification card to anybody with certain proofs of identity for five bucks. It's the same fraud-proofing and same format as our driver's license, but no driving privilege included. That's hardly an excuse.
Never mind that there are only a few ways to get a license revoked in my state, and they all boil down to "Bearer screwed up." When some drives drunk, causes an accident while uninsured, or gets popped for speeding 19MPH over posted limit six times in one year, he doesn't need to be driving and probably doesn't need to be drinking.
I didn't get my licence till about...6 months ago, im 23 now. Drinking age here is 18. Not sure in vancouver, its kinda odd to require something like that. I can understand the need for id'ing but why a non required non related card, on ontario we have LCBO cards or others that would make more sense.
"I'm sorry, you want to buy porn? You'll have to go get a pilots liscence"
And to add to the list Ontario(Canada) has a barcode and magnetic strip too.
Jesus saves, everyone else takes full damage from the fireball.
Gee, where have I heard that recently.
I have no doubt that if Orwell had addressed business in the same manner he would have written similar stories. As an anti-fascist he would have been well aware of the problem associated with the corporate state.
Any way over time the usage of the term Big Brother has expanded in common speech to include mass surveilance/control systems in general. For example the TV show of that name. I don't think people expect the house to be run by the government. So its use here is acceptable I think.
Does that sound like I know what the hell I'm talking about?
so a bunch of private businesses want to keep a private network of patrons who choose to enter their bar? this isn't just for their own protection, but if they do indeed have the support of patrons, then its obviously perceived as being for their benefit as well.
big brother? please, put the tin hat away.
Moo
According to Bennito Musolini, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power"
Now have a quick squiz at the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascist Regimes
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
5. Rampant sexism.
6. A controlled mass media.
7. Obsession with national security.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
9. Power of corporations protected.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
14. Fraudulent elections.
You figure it out.
Get the Hell off my planet, you slimy mobster Bush!
This is not an instance of "big brother". "Big brother" is the idea that controls on you are justified on the grounds that they keep YOU out of trouble. "We're the government and we're here to look out for you -- like a big brother."
This is the formation of a virtual community. If this were about bars owners in a small town telling each other about fighters and angry drunks, would you object? No. It's their right. Adding technology doesn't change that.
Hmm... ok... and I assume you're volunteering to be one of the first people to write fake data to the mag stripe on their drivers licence?
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
Sure, so long as it's the one I "lost" and had replaced.
Why don't a bunch of Vancoverians create a blacklist of bars and clubs that use this system? Make sure the list is very public so that they know your boycotting them because of their use of this unjustifiable invasion of privacy.
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
I don't mind if they track me in case I make trouble....
They just better not try to market to me better
|:{
This is just automating what they're already doing. Including banning the innocent.
The areas that really need this are Whistler (resort area just outside of Vancouver) and Kelowna (about 4 hours drive away, and the summer resort area). They're using sneakernet, but they're overloaded.
Good Grief!
Doesn't anyone in Canada just go out for a beer?
Thank Christ I live in Australia!
In my local pub, if people start trouble the locals generally step in, closely followed by the bouncers (on a friday or saturday night).
The RSL clubs (Returned services leagues clubs) have used ID cards for years. This is used because of rules that determine whether you are a member or guest based on your locality to the venue.
Nobody really seems to complain...you get cheaper beer!
you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21...
Why would I want to be over 21? The drinking age in most enlightened countries, including Canada, is 18 or 19 (depending on the province here).
Yes, but your entry into the bar is conditional on your providing this information. If you claim to be someone else (which is illegal) and they bust you, you've got some bad shit coming to you. And guess what? Next time you go to the bar, the machine will notice your 'fake' ID again, and they'll know it's you.
Look, it's very simple. If you don't intend to play by their rules (don't be rowdy, swipe your card, get your picture taken) then don't go to those clubs. If you want to enter their clubs, you have to do it by their rules, or else it's just not right. It's like pirating Windows 2000 because 'all software should be free'. Maybe it should be, but it's not, and if you want to use it, you should pay for it, because that's the deal being presented, take it or leave it.
--Dan
Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons
Interesting way to put the spin on it. I have another idea.
Vancouver Bars Network Together to Protect Customers
If I go to a bar and bump into the wrong person, I'm going to get my ass kicked (if I'm lucky), or, like another poster mentioned, I'm going to get beaten within an inch of my life. This is a big reason I don't go to bars. The worst part is, if it happens, I'm probably on my own. In a city the size of Vancouver, it's not too easy to find someone based on what four people almost saw.
With this system in place, the bars know where I go, but they also know who was there, with photos, so if I get laid out, I can say 'yeah, that's the guy' and they have records of him swiping in/out of the bar, so they know he was there.
I don't meet a lot of belligerant people, but when I do, coincidentally, most of them are drunk. If I'm given reassurances that there will be penalties for people who harm me, I'll feel a lot safer going out and having a good time. And that translates into me spending more money. That being said, having to empty one's pockets, as another poster mentioned is a real pain in the ass.
--Dan
they are most likely doing this on their own, because it is their responsibility if they are caught selling booze to minors, and they can lose their license, and hence, their entire business.
If they can show that they went to great lengths to ensure that people were adults, and were still fooled, the courts may be lenient.
This is why some football games will ID *everyone*, regardless of age.. seems like a stupid policy when you have obviously 50+ year old men buying liquor.. but it lets them say that there is no judgement call.. and hence, makes it easier to keep their license.
It's about nightclubs.. a very different matter.
There are hundreds of bars in vancouver, and you won't get hassled for ID in most of them, unless you look really young.
Nightclubs, however, are a more serious thing.. and what with more and more nightclubs the world over having metal detectors, cameras, and whatnot... this isn't surprising. A nightclub is not a bar.. you will find lineups at most, these are busy, high profile businesses, and given the lineups outside most good vancouver clubs on a weekend, I can imagine, gather and sharing information such as this will benefit all of them.. those clubs that get together to do this will benefit.. that is, unless the customers don't go.
Heh.. I kind of thought you might make a post in this one Stu....
If I had mod points.... Hmm. I haven't had mod points in over a year. What's with that?
Am I evil?
Does slashdot hate me?
The University's official address is in Urbana, but if you cross the street to the west from that building, you're in Champaign. The campus is split pretty much 50-50 between Champaign and Urbana, and the campustown bars are all in Champaign.
paintball
you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21
Then they should do what Ohio does. The license is pictured different for age. The typical long ways for people 21 and over, and the 21 and young, their license is turn 90 deg. Meaning the shorter lines are top and bottom. This also saves the time for hunting for an age. Granted this can and will be counterfeited, but at least it put a damper in it. Plus almost every ID can be counterfeited.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
The theme from Cheers Making your way in the world today Takes everything you've got; Taking a break from all your troubles Sure would help a lot. Wouldn't you like to get away? Sometimes you want to go Where everybody knows your name, And they're always glad you came; You want to go where you can go People are all the same; You want to go where everybody knows your name You want to go where you can go People are all the same; You want to go where everybody knows your name, and your SSN, your photo, your fingertips, your retina scaaaan.
Actually...I happen to be an Ohioan, and I think the verticalized license document is pissing in the wind...though slight better than what they've done in the past (different backgrounds, different colors in the title bar...et cetera.)
It's possible for someone to be over 21 and have a verticalized license...though I can't say for sure why I've been told of people being more successful than not with the verticalized license.
Incidentally, I'm working on legislation to allow individuals to get a license without a birthyear on it (if they don't use it for age related ID...but they use it for ID, and don't want to show their age everywhere.) It only makes sense that this license would be vertical...
Keep trying! Only 1452 more Troll-Points to unlock the next goatse.cx party game!
Blar.
Always a friendly atmosphere (though I haven't sampled that much), the guys on testosterone overload are way too homophobic to go there!
Of course, if you're looking to score, then a gay bar is not the place to go. But how often do you really score when you go out? And how great is the sex after a night of heavy drinking?
Stop the brainwash
Anybody else shocked at the thought that you need a driving license to be allowed to drink?
Oppose it when it's mandatory, and not when it's not.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
They should wait to take the picture (and soon-to-follow urine sample for DNA testing, I'm sure) until AFTER you're drunk. Then they can have a whole side-business of selling photos to your employer if you don't tip enough.
I can already see them handing the list over to law enforcement with yellow highlighter markups on the people who have been in and drinking tonight. It would sure make those DUI quotas easier to fill!
Everything described in that article (database of
photos, driving license, and connecting the bars'
databases) would be totally illegal in a lot of
countries, and I'm surprised that this seems to be
allowed in Canada.
Think about.... A Bar that knows who you are, and what you drink... I think Cliff Clavin would shed a tear knowing that he could have his card wwiped, and his drinks are prepped right away for him.... It's like pre-cognitive drive-thru
Living in vancouver (3 blocks from the area referenced in the article), I have seen a 'personal defence' handgun once in my life (on an american who had smuggled it in on vacation). I also know nobody in any capacity who has been victimized or threatened by someone with a gun, or has witnessed it. This includes some bartenders/bouncers in the clubs in question.
We're mostly worried about things like batons or knives.
That's quite true, indeed... I've not read your constitution, but I though that self privacy was a human right. Anyway, once the government has decided on something there's small options... ne? Anyway, Spain is also another country (and thus another constitution)and I'm quite afraid they'll play also the big brother game on us soon... Mmmm... don't know if that have sound rude, because it didn't meaned to. English it's not my natural language and while trying to write it I tend to both, destroy grammar and sound rude.
There's nothing we can't face... except for bunnies!!
A whole bunch of people keep saying "People over 21 using fake ID" and "... so people over 21 ..."
It's not 21 in Canada to drink people, it's 19 (18 in Quebec)!!!
Well why is that such a problem? Again, in aRizona, perfectly legal to carry them. You can walk around with a gun, baton, knife, and pepper spray on your belt and the cops won't give you a second thought. With a CCW, you can carry it all concealed. What's more, lots of people do REGULARLY. I know people that keep a weapon on their person at all times, escept in restricted places.
So, given that there are way more people who have weapons on their person here, I find it interesting that bars don't see the need to check for it, and crime stats vindicate them. You just don't see many bar stabbings/shootings/etc.
But you have no problem giving them your credit or debit card?
Scenery? Thats why I have a TV. And a screen Saver.
(/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
It ought to be the other way around... If you *have* a driver's license, you can't drink...
I mean, strictly from the DUI point of view.
jred
I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
touche, but I usually try to pay cash for that kind of thing
If I was that drunk, I would have remembered it -- H. Simpson
You really ought to just go to prison, because
you'll have more freedom, and you won't have to
deal with money and guns.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Even better, IMHO, would be to use that same system to also track the total drinks consumed by bar-hoppers. If someone who's had more than a few too many walks into yet another bar and demands a round, the barkeep then has a good defensible reason for refusing the sop any more liquor. "You've had ten drinks already tonight at the last three bars you visited. Wouldja like me to call you a cab, or are you close enough to home to crawl?"
This is actually against canadian law to do. We have a ACT that protects all personal information about us canadians... Its called the PIPEDA act.. Its quite new yet and it becomes law Jan 1 2004. Basically it more or less states that a company is more or less unable to legaly share any personal information with anyone unless the have your explicit permission to do so. I doubt they are aware of ACT and will be unable to implement this after the ACT becomes active.
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear..." is no basis for a free, civil society.
In point of fact, I'm not really concerned with teh STATED purpose of this system. However, when it gets used to target marketing or otherwise-unrelated law enforcemnent activity, that is Really Not Okay.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!