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Astronauts To Repair Shuttle Tiles With Foam Brush

Posted by michael on from the crazy-glue dept.

lhouk281 writes "Repairing the space shuttle's heat shield on the fly might be easier than originally thought, thanks to a basic, inexpensive item in any painter's tool box -- the foam brush. The brush, which costs less than $1 at most hardware stores, was described by NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe as the perfect instrument for applying two compounds that together form a Super Glue-like substance to patch potential holes in the shuttle's heat-resistant tiles."

57 of 66 comments (clear)

  1. Cure all? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1

    But can it patch holes in the wing leading edge?

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    1. Re:Cure all? by Keith+Russell · · Score: 1

      Probably not. Edge tiles are made of a different material to withstand the additional heat. I don't think they've found a suitable patch compound for those tiles yet, let alone a means to apply it.

      --
      This sig intentionally left blank.
    2. Re:Cure all? by kmahan · · Score: 1

      That's what the roll of duct tape is for.

      --
      Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
  2. I, for one... by identity0 · · Score: 1

    hope that our new space overlords can make it down in one piece...

    Seriously though, if I were an astronaut, guess what my expression would be if they handed me a foam brush as I was leaving for the pad and said, "Here, take this in case we screw up again and punch a giant hole in your wing." o_O

    1. Re:I, for one... by jsantos · · Score: 1

      Sure, that would give the astronauts a lot of confidence, saying to them:

      "Be sure not to miss a spot or you'll turn into a big flaming ball of fire in your way back".

      --
      This signature intentionally left blank
  3. But what is the reality of this? by chia_monkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds good and all, but my skeptical side is about to come out again. Are we really going to go with the cheap $1.00 solution? I'm guessing NASA (or some other agency) will spend about $2.5 million on testing to make sure all the components of the brush are safe, will withstand radiation in space, won't react with the glue or the tiles, etc. Then all of a sudden we're up to $200 brushes (which are really exactly the same as the painter's brushes). Don't get me wrong...I like the fact we found a nice cheap solution and can repair on the fly (theoretically), but we know how the government is...

    --

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
    1. Re:But what is the reality of this? by pmz · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are we really going to go with the cheap $1.00 solution?

      Brush: $1.00
      Specially-formulated repair compound developed after three-years of intense R&D
      by a fully-funded two-way competition between contractors: $6,450,000/oz.

      --
      Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
    2. Re:But what is the reality of this? by n1ywb · · Score: 1

      Thought for the day.

      During the space race back in the 1960's, NASA was faced with a major problem. The astronaut needed a pen that would write in the vacuum of space. NASA went to work. At a cost of $1.5 million they developed the "Astronaut Pen". Some of you may remember. It enjoyed minor success on the commercial market.

      The Russians were faced with the same dilemma.

      They used a pencil.

      Okay okay, this is an urban legend. But in every legend there is a grain of truth...

      --
      -73, de n1ywb
      www.n1ywb.com
    3. Re:But what is the reality of this? by ManxStef · · Score: 1

      Probably more than three years R&D, considering NASA has developed tile-repair kits since the 80's (before the first shuttle launch even!), but never deployed them on the shuttles for unknown reasons.

    4. Re:But what is the reality of this? by dschuetz · · Score: 3, Funny
      You forgot one step.
      • Brush: $1.00
      • Specially-formulated repair compound developed after three-years of intense R&D by a fully-funded two-way competition between contractors: $6,450,000/oz.
      • Look on the project manager's face when the losing company buys the winner outright: priceless

    5. Re: But what is the reality of this? by BurritoJ · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Isn't the government silly!!! Imagine wanting to test something that will 'probably work.' It's not like there are lives on the line. Ya know, I'll be that wrapping the wing in duct tape would probalby work, too. Or maybe just get a can-o-cheez and spray it on the wing!
      Seriously, though, probably just doesn't cut it. You make your best effort to develop a solution that will work and then you damn well PROVE that it works in the expected situation, or actually any concievable situation! Overengineered, you say? Sure, unless you actually end up in that situation. I assume you wear your seatbelt in the car. They could have grabbed a 1/4" nylon rope and said 'That'll work!' But they didn't and you would have cried your eyes out if they had because if you get in an accident you don't want to leave a faceprint in the windshield? It's the same thing, except that most gov't projects don't get to take advantage of the economies of scale to spread the R&D cost over thousands or millions of nearly identical items. They pay once and it has to work, so that one item is expensive. It's just a fact of life.

    6. Re:But what is the reality of this? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sounds good and all, but my skeptical side is about to come out again. Are we really going to go with the cheap $1.00 solution? I'm guessing NASA (or some other agency) will spend about $2.5 million on testing to make sure all the components of the brush are safe, will withstand radiation in space, won't react with the glue or the tiles, etc. Then all of a sudden we're up to $200 brushes (which are really exactly the same as the painter's brushes)

      Which would you rather bet your life on:
      • A. A brush which may or may not be in a condition to use when you need it and that may or may not perform as advertised or as desired.
      • B. A brush whose characteristics are known and are guaranteed to work as advertised.

      As someone whose life once depended on long stored equipment maintaining it's properties, I'll choose option ' B ' every single time.

      Sure, the testing process is expensive, but in the end it means that you know what you have, and how it will perform. If you buy something at the local megamart and it does not live up to its promises, you can always drive right back and complain. For a soldier in the field, a sailor far out on the trackless ocean, or an astronaut in orbit, that option is not available.
    7. Re:But what is the reality of this? by srn_test · · Score: 1

      In this case, it's the grain of graphite that breaks off and starts a fire.

      Why do people persist in repeating this rubbish?

    8. Re: But what is the reality of this? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course, they could just send up a spare tile and the repair kit on the next mission and TRY IT OUT.

      As long as it's just along for the ride and not the point of the mission, that's be a good cheap test under real world conditions.

    9. Re: But what is the reality of this? by ChickenAintDone · · Score: 1

      "Alright guys, this is how the test goes, you're gonna get in the shuttle, and we're gonna launch, if you die and the shuttle explodes, then that means it didn't work. Hop on board!"

  4. Re:What the heck are they thinking? by captainktainer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Two things:

    1) It was Columbia, not Challenger; both tragedies, of course, were due to the bureaucrats not listening to the people that actually understood what they were doing. Very, very bad.

    2) The problem with the foam was the velocity, not the composition of the material. This foam looks to be quite useful, although I'm a bit skeptical about outgassing rendering the foam useless before it can even be applied. And yes, I know it was a joke.

  5. ... And next week... by PorcelainLabrador · · Score: 1

    ... NASA will discover the caulking isle.

    1. Re:... And next week... by tiohero · · Score: 1
      As a matter of fact, the heat shield tiles are glued on with RTV silicone. I suspect that the formulation is very similar to the RTV High-Temp (700+ deg F)silicone used for engine gaskets available at auto parts stores. The difference is that heat shield RTV is a two part silicone which utilizes a different cure method.

      The stuff that you buy in the caulking isle has similar properties. Silicone compounds can widthstand surprisingly high temperatures.

  6. Does the fix... by jmitchel!jmitchel.co · · Score: 4, Funny

    Does the fix also involve an inanimate carbon rod?

  7. Costs less than $1 at a hardware store... by afabbro · · Score: 1
    ...means that the Federal government paid $400 each.

    (Eh, I'm probably the only here old enough to remember that scandal...)

    --
    Advice: on VPS providers
    1. Re:Costs less than $1 at a hardware store... by jeffy124 · · Score: 1

      no, you're not old enough. I remember the $500 toilet seat and $100 for a hammer. (ok, maybe not precise numbers, but you get the idea)

      A prof at school told us the story of the $5000 coffee pot for the air force. He joked that an F-16 could be blown to bits by enemy fire or in a crash, but the pilot could enjoy a cup-of-joe while parachuting down to the ground.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    2. Re:Costs less than $1 at a hardware store... by isorox · · Score: 1

      What, you dont really think they spend $50,000 on a toilet seat, $40,000 on a hammer do you? How else would they fund Area 51?

  8. Foam Brush Price Increases by kmahan · · Score: 1

    Should be interesting to see how much a space-certified foam brush will cost.

    --
    Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
  9. Trailer park trash by wowbagger · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, are we going to see shuttles who's primary color is "primer" and "Bondo"?

    Shuttles with one wheel that is the mini-spare, for years?

    Shuttles with plastic over one window?

    Hmmm.

    Could be worse.

    We could see shuttles with spoilers, glo-lights, ThunderThump3000 stereos, and "R-Type" stickers...

    --
    www.eFax.com are spammers
    1. Re:Trailer park trash by dstillz · · Score: 1

      I'd find it funny if I saw a shuttle with an R-Type sticker. Blast off and strike against the evil Bydo empire!

    2. Re:Trailer park trash by TwistedGreen · · Score: 1

      R-Type, eh?
      I think my vacuum uses those.

    3. Re:Trailer park trash by Wilk4 · · Score: 1
      don't forget:
      • the gun rack in the cockpit
      • the bar of lights across the top of the cab with smiley face covers
      • the Yosemite Sam "Back Off" mud flaps
      • and a few tiles held on with bailing wire...

      And NASA will have a bunch of old, junker, partly-disassembled shuttles parked out in the yard too...

  10. Great if you know it needs to be fixed by zero_offset · · Score: 1
    Unless I'm mistakened, they didn't even know they needed repairs until they were well on their way towards landing. I doubt a $1 foam brush is going to hold up to the heat of reentry while the sacrificial astronaut steps outside to apply some quick patches.

    This must be why they don't let NASA Administrators anywhere near the sharp instruments.

    --

    Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    1. Re:Great if you know it needs to be fixed by zero_offset · · Score: 1

      GMFP (Get My Fcking Point). I KNOW it's for orbital repair jobs. The POINT is they didn't know they needed a repair until they were already in reentry. The rest was a joke (and an admittedly lame one).

      --

      Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    2. Re:Great if you know it needs to be fixed by merlin_jim · · Score: 1

      Unless I'm mistakened, they didn't even know they needed repairs until they were well on their way towards landing.

      You would think they would have a skin integrity sensor. A simple hi-res conductance sensor (or series of them) measuring RF electrical propagation on the hull should be able to determine basic integrity.

      If you have enough of them and smart enough software it should even be able to pinpoint where to check during your EVA...

      --
      I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
    3. Re:Great if you know it needs to be fixed by Wilk4 · · Score: 1
      They did have some pretty strong suspicions from the photo evidence from the launch cameras that there *might* be damage... that's why they were all debating it so much while the shuttle was still in orbit. I believe that they decided something between "the tiles couldn't have caused significant damage" and "we'll have to chance it since we can't fix it even if there is minor damage."

      If they actually have something they can do about it (and now that they've screwed up once), they'll be more inclined to send an EVA to go look.

      Besides, the accident report did stress that nasa needed to beef up their launch camera systems and their systems that can see the shuttle in orbit, so they will have better ways to tell if there is damage... and after the loss of one shuttle and crew, they'll be a lot more careful to check now...

  11. Give Them Time by DeLabarre · · Score: 3, Funny

    NASA employs many smart engineers...surely they can come up with a more expensive solution!

    --

    In the Star Trek evil Mirror Universe, virtuoso cellist Yo-Yo Ma is gangsta hiphop star DJ Yo Ma-Ma.

    1. Re:Give Them Time by buttahead · · Score: 1

      luckily, porter paints just announced a $29,300 foam brush. You might want to hold out for the upcomming wodden handle foam brush though. New models are expected to be priced at ~$30,000.

    2. Re:Give Them Time by ChickenAintDone · · Score: 1

      That's not just any wood, it's space wood!

  12. Why not Bail out before/during re-entry? by jameskojiro · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I know ther is a lot of heat and what not during re-entry but give the naut's some one time use, high impact ceramic and kevlar suits. Then bail out before re-entry and use something akin to a fire extinguisher for a retro rocket and do an orbital skydive. They have jumped from the edge of space before using very high altitiude ballons (USAF project manhigh). They just need a suit that can stand the heat and viola! Orbital skydiving done easy!

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    1. Re:Why not Bail out before/during re-entry? by adb · · Score: 1

      "Suits" would not work, because they do not have the right aerodynamic properties: they would accumulate heat too fast, tumble, and so on. You would have to make carefully balanced capsules, which would get heavy; and after a certain point, it makes much more sense to spend that weight and money making the orbiter itself more robust.

    2. Re:Why not Bail out before/during re-entry? by barawn · · Score: 1

      very high altitiude ballons (USAF project manhigh).

      Ballons aren't going 17,000 mph with respect to the surface. They'd need more than a fire extinguisher for retrorockets - they'd need a compound that doesn't (and can't) exist. It's too much velocity to burn off any other way besides aerobraking.

      Plus the stresses required to brake that much would kill a person instantly.

      If you built something that the human could survive inside to withstand the stresses, congratulations, you've just rebuilt the shuttle.

      It's not just "a lot" of heat. It's a metric ton of heat. It's several Library of Congresses of heat. No chance. No way.

    3. Re:Why not Bail out before/during re-entry? by ColaMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you built something that the human could survive inside to withstand the stresses, congratulations, you've just rebuilt the shuttle.

      Hardly.

      How about a soyuz return capsule.
      Or even a 60's era MOOSE.

      It's only a metric ton of heat when you've got 50 tons of orbiter smacking into the atmosphere. There's a lot less excess energy to bleed off when it's 1 man+250kg. Still, *I* wouldn't want to try personal orbital re-entry until every other option was exhausted.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    4. Re:Why not Bail out before/during re-entry? by tigersha · · Score: 1

      You mean like this gizmo:

      http://www.astronautix.com/craft/moose.htm

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    5. Re:Why not Bail out before/during re-entry? by ChickenAintDone · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I'm not quite grasping that, can you convert that to VW Bugs of heat for me?

  13. Re:two compounds = Super-Glue like? by adb · · Score: 1

    Cyanoacrylate glues consist of resin and hardener, too; I'm not sure how one-tube cyanoacrylates get by. (Maybe the tube is split in half internally, and the glue mixes in the nozzle?)

  14. Re:two compounds = Super-Glue like? by caffeine_monkey · · Score: 1

    Cyanoacrylates like Super Glue harden when exposed to water: the moisture in the air or on the bonding surfaces acts as an alkali that catalyses the polymerisation reaction. So they'll also have to bring with them a $1 water mister if they're going to use household Super Glue.

  15. Goop in Space by tchdab1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Knowing how I get goop all over the place whenever I use some, I can envision the fuzzy photos of the astronaut crazy-glued to the bottom of the wing as the shuttle re-enters the atmosphere.

  16. The US Space Program by mraymer · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Every time I see another article about the shuttle here, I remember when I first heard the news. It was like hearing a close friend had died (namely the US Space Program).

    I hope this foam brush thing works, but I also hope that they don't have to use it in LEO as an emergency repair. I really, really hope that what happened with Columbia was just extremely unlucky, and not business as usual with the shuttles.

    I think the interesting this is other countries are starting to enter the space race. I hope someone plans a manned Mars mission or something, anything, to really spark some interest. Oh I know, manned spaceflight is too risky, not needed, blah blah. Yeah well, guess what, humans inevitably die. I'm sure that, given the choice, many humans would rather die pushing the boundaries of exploration and discovery than dying safely on earth in their beds.

    Earth isn't going to be here forever. The more we learn about surviving places other than on Earth, the better chance we have of outliving this little blue dot we call home.

    I think my sig fits in nicely here.

    --

    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    1. Re:The US Space Program by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Your friend dies often. This is the second time in 20 years!

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  17. Re:two compounds = Super-Glue like? by tiohero · · Score: 1
    Epoxys and super glues don't widthstand high temperatures well.

    I've read that space capsules and other vehicles including the X-23a have used an abalative silicone compound.

    A two-part high-temp RTV silicone is used to attach the shuttle tiles so they may be using a similar compound for the patch (maybe utilizing fiberglass cloth reinforcement).

  18. $1 foam brush by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

    ...which NASA will buy from the lowest bidder for $50

  19. Re:two compounds = Super-Glue like? by TwP · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So they'll also have to bring with them a $1 water mister if they're going to use household Super Glue

    And on the sunny side of the Space Shuttle the water will boil away before it hits the glue. And on the dark side of the Space Shuttle the water will freeze before it hits the glue.

    The compound is probably akin to a two part epoxy -- epoxy (the glue) and resin (the hardener). Another option would be a UV curing glue. (1) Apply on the dark side of the Shuttle, (2) rotate Shuttle into sunlight, (3) watch glue cure, (4) profit!!!

  20. Re:Liquid glue + Vacuum of Space by A55M0NKEY · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't most any liquid rapidly boil away in the vacuum of space? They'd squirt the stuff out of the tube and it would be gone before they could apply it.

    --

    Eat at Joe's.

  21. CNNNN news story on Space Shuttle "Icarus" launch by bigsteve@dstc · · Score: 1
    "Foam brushes" == "Reality imitates Satire"

    Click here for the full "story".

  22. Other approachs by bigsteve@dstc · · Score: 1

    If the leading edge panels are so hard to patch, perhaps the should make the panels modular and carry a couple of spares in the repair locker. Or perhaps they should reengineer them to be strong enough to take significantly greater impacts without breaking.

  23. Carbon fibre duct tape? by bigsteve@dstc · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I know you intended that to be a joke, but it may be the root of the solution. Suppose NASA could develop semi-flexible patch material consisting of a carbon fibre composite with an adhesive backing. The astronauts would apply patches of this material, cut to shape with hand shears. By applying a number of layers, they would build up sufficient thickness of material to withstand the heat of reentry.

    I don't know how flexible a thin sheet of carbon fibre composite would be. But, if necessary, the patches could be preshaped with roughly the U profile needed to go around the leading edge.

  24. Hmm.. by adeyadey · · Score: 1

    ..so we started with

    "No, impossible to fix a tile in-flight.."
    then "Well, ok, we will look into it.."
    then "Ah, we can use a $1 foam brush from the hardware store.."

    Do you ever get the feeling the US is paying $600 million per shuttle launch to the wrong guys?
    How about opening up competition for a cheap reusable LEO vehicle to some other guys? The X-Prize style competition could be a way to go..

    --
    "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
    1. Re:Hmm.. by cybermace5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm actually pretty certain that if I was a member of the crew and NASA was claiming the hole couldn't be fixed, I'd be willing to give it a try.

      Either that, or install a landing capsule in the Shuttle, similar to the Apollo recovery modules. It would be a way to get down, and the shuttle could be left behind for a later mission to repair.

      --
      ...
    2. Re:Hmm.. by adeyadey · · Score: 1

      Better still, scrap the Shuttle altogether, go back to a simple soyuz style rocket/capsule system for now until we have a better LEO access reusable vehicle..

      --
      "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
  25. Re:two compounds = Super-Glue like? by merlin_jim · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure how one-tube cyanoacrylates get by.

    I'm a (hobbyist) jeweler and while jeweler's try to avoid glues and whatnot, sometimes it's just unavoidable... especially doing repair work on heat-sensitive items...

    Therefore I've worked a bit with the theory of how different glues bond, in order to guarantee that work I do will be secure. I'm not entirely sure how these compounds work, either... but I do know that cyanoacrylates depend on an airtight interface to bond properly... specifically it has to be oxygen free.

    For instance, I've gotten some on my fingers before... and it sits there just fine in liquid form... until I push my thumb against it. Then instantly the two fingers are bonded together until I get my superglue remover... this is in fact a very useful feature for gems that were knocked out of their mount. Fill the mount with a thin layer of cyanoacrylate, then press gem firmly in place. Instantly it gets bound in place.

    I use this a lot for things that are delicately positioned. Glue it in place with the acrylate, then form the mount and dissolve away the glue when done.

    Anyways, back to the topic... I don't believe that one-compound cyanoacrylates would work well in space... not enough working time before it hardens. Though there are chemicals you can add to the one-compound cyanoacrylates that slow the curing time...

    --
    I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
  26. It sounds like... by vudufixit · · Score: 1

    The astronauts are taking away a job from a union contractor. A shop steward may have to serve as an eighth crewperson on shuttle flights, soon.