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Californian Court Fines Spammers $2 Million

afra242 writes "The BBC News has reported that a Californian court has fined a marketing firm $2m for spamming via email. This judgement was the first anti-spam ruling and the marketing firm were fines for sending out millions of unsolicited e-mails telling people how to spam. We're getting closer..." Other readers point to coverage of the judgement from the Associated Press (via SFGate) and from Reuters (via Yahoo!).

151 comments

  1. $2 Million by r_glen · · Score: 4, Funny

    Great! When do I get my share?

    1. Re:$2 Million by 56ker · · Score: 1

      It was the State of California that brought the lawsuit - so they get the proceeds.

    2. Re:$2 Million by DrEldarion · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This is "FOR THE PEOPLE!" just like the RIAA sues people "FOR THE ARTISTS!". You get as much from California as the artists get from the RIAA - Nothing.

      -- Dr. Eldarion --

  2. Too leniant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would have thrown the death penalty at em.

    1. Re:Too leniant. by eclectro · · Score: 2, Insightful


      First they need to make it a felony to spam. Spamming is no different from other forms of wire fraud (by using fraudulent headers, cracking into networks to send spam, theft of services, not to mention most of the time they are selling a scam).

      Then spammers can be sent to prison where they can be stabbed in the showers.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    2. Re:Too leniant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      Then spammers can be sent to prison where they can be stabbed in the showers.
      by.. by knives right?
  3. Let's take what we can get... by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean, hey, it's not ass-rape, but $2 million will do for starters.

    --
    evil adrian
    1. Re:Let's take what we can get... by Reglar_Joe · · Score: 1

      I'm just glad they didn't sue those p*e*n*1*s enlargement people because I'd hate to stop getting those.

    2. Re:Let's take what we can get... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buys you about one album from a RIAA artist... Gotta love the proportions.

    3. Re:Let's take what we can get... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      I'm just glad they didn't sue those p*e*n*1*s enlargement people because I'd hate to stop getting those.

      You mean they work????!

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    4. Re:Let's take what we can get... by GQuon · · Score: 1

      I mean, hey, it's not ass-rape, but $2 million will do for starters.

      Bestiality, Rape, European.

      Seriously though: Jail rape is not funny.

      --
      Irene KHAAAAAAN!
  4. Only about 200 other spammer to go! by NoSuchGuy · · Score: 0

    Okay there are about 200 'big' spammer left.
    End of 2004 till all are gone? Is this possible? Probably not some other will take their places but it's a good start.

    NoSuchGuy

    --
    Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
  5. People said... by IversenX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...it wouldn't work. That fines wouldn't help.

    If rulings like this become everyday experiences, I honestly think the amount of spam will decrease.

    It will not solve the problem, however. There are ALOT of ideas for this, one of which is POP-Before-SMTP, which seems somewhat sane. But then again, they (more or less) all do. I find it highly unlikely that any of these n solutions will find wide acceptance and use, before at most a handful standardized ways are selected.

    Oh yes, and all your money are belong to us!

    --
    With great numbers come great responsibility!
    1. Re:People said... by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      ...it wouldn't work. That fines wouldn't help.

      I would simply point out that the spammers still have their testicles intact.


      It will not solve the problem, however. There are ALOT of ideas for this, one of which is POP-Before-SMTP, which seems somewhat sane. ..... I find it highly unlikely that any of these n solutions will find wide acceptance and use

      I have some ideas for spammers that I would like to see implemented. And I would like to see them have wide acceptance and use.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    2. Re:People said... by MMaestro · · Score: 1
      The fines may not help in the long run (ie. cross international cases) but it does help set the stage for future lawsuits.

      The many, many methods for fighting spam are usually small and unnoticed by the public for good reason. If, say, Linux was to suddenly be forced onto the public (breaking the Windows monopoly), about what percentage do you think will be able to learn Linux -effectively-? In open source, free projects such as POP-Before-SMTP, you have about 1 programmer working on the project per 10-100 people/consumers. Compared to massive software companies such as Microsoft, you have about 1 programmer per 1000-5000 people/consumers on an international level.

    3. Re:People said... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      POP-before-SMTP is a _really_ old way of doing SMTP authentication. I worked at an ISP 3+ years ago where we used it. It worked OK then, but only because we didn't really have a better alternative. Our support people hated trying to explain to users who were minmally computer literate why you needed to check your mail before you could send any. SMTP AUTH is much better for several reasons. You don't need to check mail; it can be much more secure, it's standard and supported by just about all current MUAs. It's a "set it and forget it" configuration on the clients. There's probably several more reasons that I'm forgetting.

      However, both SMTP AUTH and POP-before-SMTP only work on the client side, and neither will do anything to stop spammers that operate their own SMTP servers or can relay through a third party's SMTP servers.

    4. Re:People said... by grondu · · Score: 1

      I would simply point out that the spammers still have their testicles intact.

      Paul Willis might, but I bet Claudia Griffin doesn't.

      --

      I'm the urban spaceman babe, but here comes the twist... I don't exist

    5. Re:People said... by etrnl · · Score: 1

      You've seen too many late-night Ronco infomercials :)

      --etrnl--

  6. From the article... by asparagus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The injunction also forbids Willis and Griffin from owning or managing any business that advertises over the internet for 10 years.

    After 1 January, the state's anti-spam laws will get tougher and will also allow private individuals to sue spammers and collect damages of up to $1,000 per e-mail.


    That's a nice pair of little clauses there.

    The problem is that these guys were a perfect case: a pair of California spammers spamming people inside California using California computers. Methinks jurisdiction is going to be much more interesting when they try to go after out-of-state/country people. If they do so.

    However, it does send a nice message to the bastards. And if just one of 'em decides to not hit that 'send 50 million emails' button, that's a little win for the Internet. We gotta be happy with that, 'cause the government (as usual) is gonna keep the money to itself.

    1. Re:From the article... by jfengel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because it's a perfect case, it will be a nice precedent if it is appealed. I'd hate to have one of these appealed to the Supreme Court (on, say, free speech grounds) only to have it knocked back on some sort of technicality due to juridication.

      I do hope they appeal it, and that the Supreme Court affirms it. That will provide a basis for future laws testing out exactly what can and can't be banned.

      I consider spam to be more a case of impoliteness taken to the point of being criminal. Sending one unsolicited email to one person (say, fan mail) is generally considered OK, if impolite; sending billions of commercial ones is not. The courts have a delicate balance to draw, and I think the best way may be to solidify the clear-cut cases before trying to tackle the hard problems.

    2. Re:From the article... by espo812 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      allow private individuals to sue spammers and collect damages of up to $1,000 per e-mail.

      That's a nice pair of little clauses there.
      How do you figure a fine of $1,000 per e-mail is a nice clause? One of the biggest complaints I have with the american justice system these days is a broad divsion between crimes and consequences (and in punishing responsibility for harm.) There is no way a single e-mail could cause $1,000 worth of damage. Thats an absurd punishment for a virtually victimless crime. Don't get me wrong, I hate spam as much as the next guy. However, there are technical means to alleviate the problem, and a huge fine is not reflective of the damage done.
      --

      espo
    3. Re:From the article... by DiveX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What all other laws with statutory penalties?

      Cut down a tree in your own yard in many jurisdictions and you'll be paying out thousands in fines. Who is the victim there. Shouldn't you be allowed to cut down your own 200 year old oak tree if you want?

      Littering on the highway is victimless...right? That will get you a $500 minimum fine in some states.

      Junk faxes my only cost you a few pennies, but you can collect $500 from a company that sends it. The law prohibiting it has been around for over a decade. Every SINGLE federal court district that has hear issues of 'free speech' and junk faxing have denied the complaints. Commercial speech does NOT have the same protections nor should it.

      That fact is that such activity is not victimless. Admins have to constantly adjust and upgrade mail servers to try to stop the flow or manage the load. That costs time and money, and those costs are passed on to you and me.

      The only way to stop this kind of behavior is to make it no longer viable for them to do this. The Government doesn't have the resources, so a private right of action is the key. If it wasn't for those of use that take on telemarketers and junk faxers, I guarantee that it would be a much larger problem.

      --
      Cave, wreck, and deep diver.
    4. Re:From the article... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The problem is that to adequately punish the spammer, you have to know how many emails they sent out, how many of them bounced, and so on; Then you can make an estimate of what their spam actually cost people. Since the current email system does not allow for this, and any system which did is far too stifling for my taste anyway, I feel that this is the best solution. Spammers are quite simply not supposed to be spamming. Why not punish them? This isn't about damages, it's about punishment.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:From the article... by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Sending one unsolicited email to one person (say, fan mail) is generally considered OK, if impolite;

      I wouldn't even go that far. Sending an unsolicited advertisement to one person may be impolite, but something like fan mail, something written by one person, for one person; how is sending that e-mail impolite? That's like suggesting that phoning someone 'unsolicited' is impolite, or saying hello to someone 'unsolicited' is impolite. It's not.

    6. Re:From the article... by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      This isn't about damage, it's about punishment. It has to hurt to do "victimless" crimes, else nobody will be kept from doing them. But maybe we could give them a choice: $1000 or a kick in the family jewels.

      And no matter if there are technical means to get rid of SPAM or not, even the fact that a single piece of SPAM takes my mind for even the shortest time of what I actually wanted to do, and the fact that those technical means will cost me at least time and probably money to set up and maintain already make me a victim.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    7. Re:From the article... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 2, Informative
      Methinks jurisdiction is going to be much more interesting when they try to go after out-of-state/country people. If they do so.

      Not likely to be a problem here. Jurisdiction requires a presence of some sort in California (in this case). Doing business (or attempting to do business) in california is enough to trigger local jurisdiction.

      If you can prove that somebody (anybody Consider this: If I pay somebody to go down to your house and rip up all the trees in the yard, you still have jurisdiction against me even though I live in Canada. You might have a hard time collecting on the decision against me, but that's a different issue.

      You can almost guarantee that these people accept payment by Visa/MasterCard, so I'm thinking it should, at least, be possible to collect by attaching to their Visa/MC merchant accounts.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    8. Re:From the article... by Aetrix · · Score: 1

      I agree that, in many cases, the damages awarded are far from representative of actual damages. (Even actual damages + emotional damages) But, in cases like this, the actual award that reaches the hand of the prosecution, minus lawyer fees and minus compensatory time lost (the money you would have made if you were working your job instead of being in court) makes that $1000 unsatisfactory compensation.

      --

      "One touch of Darwin makes the whole world kin." George Bernard Shaw
    9. Re:From the article... by The+Next+Guy · · Score: 1
      Don't get me wrong, I hate spam as much as the next guy.

      No, you don't. If did you hate spam as much as I do, you would know sterilization is the only punitive remedy fitting for spammers.

      - The Next Guy

    10. Re:From the article... by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      You don't have to prove general jurisdiction in California, which is the right to sue them for anything in that state. You just need a lessor showing of specific jurisdiction, which is easier to demonstrate and opens the door for the results of conduct in the state of California.

      I am not a lawyer, though I am in law school.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  7. A Call To Arms... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...to our American brethren, since they have more guns than us and most of my spam seems to originate from the States... you see where I'm going with this? :)

    Post 9/11, folks were afraid to fly. When the infamous Washington Sniper was still at large, people would avoid the streets; they'd weave and dodge as they walked. With no disrespect to any of those involved, my point is that a couple of high-profile, well-publicised incidents generally scares people into modifying their behaviour if they feel they might be putting themselves at risk in light of those incidents.

    So, if we murder a bunch of spammers - preferably in some hideous, ritualist fashion, and preferably live on national TV (or hey, pay-per-view - I'd pay to see that!) - you think it might scare the rest of 'em into behaving like civilised human beings for a while?

    (posted anonymously 'cos the spammers probably have guns too...)

  8. 2 million is a molecule in the bucket by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 3, Insightful


    Wow! $2,000,000 is 1/10,000 of one penny for each spam email. That'll stop him!

    Okay, that's an exaggeration. Maybe, because of this judgment, the spammer will become so poor he will have to stop having caviar flown in from Moscow.

    1. Re:2 million is a molecule in the bucket by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't be ridiculous. These spammers aren't rolling in money -- they might be making a decent living, but they're not multimillionaires from spamming. $2 Million is plenty to deter someone from spamming.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    2. Re:2 million is a molecule in the bucket by isorox · · Score: 3, Funny

      Whats $2 million to people who have buisness contacts in Nigeria, have hundereds of thousands of dollars in cash through the mail every day, have a 16" penis, get free prescription drugs, have computer patches delivered to their inbox, have free accounts at thousands of porn sites and have 17 mail order Russian brides.

    3. Re:2 million is a molecule in the bucket by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Whats $2 million to people who have buisness contacts in Nigeria, have hundereds of thousands of dollars in cash through the mail every day, have a 16" penis, get free prescription drugs, have computer patches delivered to their inbox, have free accounts at thousands of porn sites and have 17 mail order Russian brides.

      What's $2 million to them? Enough to pay for penis-reduction surgery, perhaps? I can't imagine it being very much fun to stub your dick every time you have sex!

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  9. Closer to what? by muffen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We're getting closer...

    Hmm... I like them being fined, and california needs the money, that's for sure.
    However, I wouldn't jump too high right now. I think we are just changing the game, not winning it. Here's an example of what spammers are doing now.

    I believe whitelisting is one of the only way to go about stopping spam, but it has obvious problems associated.

    Ah well, atleast the government is doing something... 5 years too late.

    1. Re:Closer to what? by Codifex+Maximus · · Score: 1

      > Hmm... I like them being fined, and
      > california needs the money, that's for sure.

      They'll be back.

      --
      Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
    2. Re:Closer to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Trojan isn't the only thing they do.

      They do hire expert hackers now.

      "Call them spackers -- they're the new breed of computer crackers who earn a living in cahoots with spammers. The latest innovations developed by such mercenary hackers on behalf of the junk e-mail profession are techniques that enable spammers or scam artists for that matter -- to create websites that are essentially untraceable.

      One group in Poland is currently advertising invisible bulletproof hosting in online forums for spammers. For $1,500 per month, the group says it can protect a site from network sleuthing tools used by spam opponents, such as traceroute and whois.

      Until now, antispammers have relied on such tools to identify the numeric Internet protocol address behind a website advertised by spam. In the past, shutting down a site used to sell spammed products -- or to rip off gullible online users via phishing schemes -- was often just a matter of notifying the hosting company responsible for the IP address.

      But the new technique makes these tools futile, according to experts familiar with the method."
      http://www.computercops.biz/article3536. html

      The famous Sobig.a virus may also be related to spam.

  10. Yes we are getting closer to the real solution... by Arcturax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Which is to sue not just the spammers, but the companies who hire them and ban their imports to the Unites States (or whatever country you are in) to punish those overseas who may be beyond the reach of a lawsuit. The latter may be harder to enforce as I am sure there are ways around it and not enough customs agents to check everything. But it might at least have some impact on domestic companies who hire spammers. The more countries that join in, the more impact it has overseas. Companies will soon learn that using spammers costs more than it makes. Dry up the demand for spammers and the problem goes away.

    --

    --Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
  11. $1000 per e-mail? by DrEldarion · · Score: 3, Insightful

    According to the article, a law goes into effect in January stating that people can sue companies for $1000 per spam e-mail they get. As much as we all hate spam, isn't $1000 per e-mail a bit excessive?

    Think about how we react when we hear about the record companies suing people for thousands of dollars per song that they share. The normal reaction is, "There's no way that these people caused that much damage to the RIAA! They should only be able to sue for how much damage they can prove they incurred over that person sharing the song."

    Why doesn't that apply here? Just because we don't like spam? One spam e-mail doesn't cause $1000 worth of damages just like one shared song doesn't cause $10000 worth of damages. Isn't there a bit of a double standard here? The people in the story got punished in a different way as well - they can't advertise anything over the internet for the next 10 years, not even their own marketing company.

    Now, I'm all for spammers getting shut down and punished, but $1000 per e-mail seems a bit excessive when the actual damage to your time/bandwidth is nowhere near that.

    -- Dr. Eldarion --

    1. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by dattaway · · Score: 0, Redundant

      isn't $1000 per e-mail a bit excessive?

      I believe that is more humane than capital punishment.

    2. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by rokzy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      the RIAA doesn't want $10,000 damages from each song, it wants 150,000.

      so the scale of punishment is still nowhere near comparable.

    3. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by jfengel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I assume that it's at least partly punitive, and to make up for the fact that you'll be nailed for only a tiny fraction of the spams you send. Whether that's valid legal reasoning I'll leave to the lawyers.

    4. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Maybe your time isn't worth anything, but mine is, and so is the fact that I can't tell valuable new business leads from penis-enlargement junk.

      The punishment has to make the crime unprofitable given the low percentage of people who will follow through on a complaint, or doing the crime and paying the fine will become a viable business model.

    5. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I come at this from an economics perspective. First, it would cost a fair bit in time to actually track down a spammer, but this really secondary. For the law to actually have a deterent effect, which is presumably what they are going for, there has to be a real economic consequence for breaking the law. Because the probability of an individual actually finding, suing and collecting from a spammer is so low, the fine has to be high to make the per spam cost high enough to be a deterent. The low probability of having to pay dilutes the actual monetary fine. The action of the RIAA (bastards) is similar. They don't want to spend the money to go after every shared file, so the damages they seek are high per song for that individual, but spread out over everyone they are just trying to make the risk of filesharing just high enough that most people won't do it. It screws some individuals, but makes the risk just high enough that I would rather use iTunes or buy a CD.
      The basis for these comments is an emerging study called behavioral economics. Steven Levitt at the U of Chicago has a number of fascinating papers that show how economics principles describe people's behavior even when $ is not directly involved. Definately worth a Google.

    6. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of this also has to do with acceptance.
      Around 60 million Americans fileshare.
      Around 600-2000 Americans spam other people.
      ~20% of the general public despise file sharing.
      ~87% of the general public despise spam.
      The RIAA's campaign is useless. It will instill fear in stupid people who think their 1:60000 odds of getting sued means theyll be next and quit sharing, everyone else will continue until the RIAA is forced to change its business model.
      If the courts were to give spammers a fee of $.10 or less, the real damage caused by each delete key press, how many people do you think would sue them? And do you think anyone would care? It would still be profitable to keep spamming people.
      Making them liable for $1000 in damages sends a clear example that its NOT worth it to spam. Take out the infinitely smaller spammer group, and the problem goes away. This logic would not work on file sharers because there are just too many.
      Not to mention, companies are usually more wealthy than individuals.

      And no, my numbers may not be perfect, but you get the point.

    7. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 1

      In order for it to be an effective deterrent, it should be somewhat excessive, don't you think?

      --
      evil adrian
    8. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >to make up for the fact that you'll be nailed for only a tiny fraction of the spams you send

      The RIAA are only suing a tiny fraction of filesharers.

    9. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      >>isn't $1000 per e-mail a bit excessive?
      >I believe that is more humane than capital punishment.


      Capital punishment is more humane than my proposed solution to spam.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    10. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too many lawsuits, too many laws. This just adds to the problem. One day it's all going to come crashing down. Hell maybe it's already reached a point of no return.

    11. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Skynyrd · · Score: 1

      Yes and no.
      A single spam isn't worth $1,000 of my time, however, if I should choose to sue and spend my time with a lawyer, a courtroom, etc... it could take *lots* of my time.

      I make $250 to $500 a day as a contractor, so if sueing a spammer takes more than 2 or 3 days (when I can't work) it *does* cost me $1,000.

      On top of that, the deterent has to be high. If the penalty was the time it takes to delete an email (at $30/hr) the fine would be too low to matter.

      That's my $0.0125 (I keep track of deals at dealmein.net)

    12. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by fitzell · · Score: 1

      I always find punitive damages a fascinating difference between the US and Canada (where we don't have them). It probably reduces the effectiveness of lawsuits as deterrents in some cases, but on the other hand I think we have a lot less frivolous law suits (why would you sue McDonald's for spilling coffee on yourself when the best you could possibly get is the cost of a new skirt and a little bit for pain and suffering?).

    13. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Jameth · · Score: 1

      I believe the situation is slightly different. I have a problem with the RIAA for committing barratry. Excessive fines happen to be their method for this activity.

      However, I think that $1.000 is too high of a number. $10 or $100 would be more appropriate, taking into account network congestion, general hassle, and potential problems due to over-full mail-boxes. Of course, a class-action suit would make that $10-per-e-mail charge end up being an awful lot of money.

      The larger fines would, in many cases, be for running a scam.

    14. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by isorox · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot, it's not meant to make sense

    15. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can understand how you can advocate such an excessive punishment. However, your logic works from the other end that it does for most Slashdot readers: if you'd disapprove of punishing spammers in such an excessive way, you'd also have to disapprove if your RIAA paymasters punish their customers in a similarly an excessive way, and that, obviously is inconceivable!

    16. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 1

      You have nothing better to do than troll about RIAA after every single one of my posts on a Saturday?

      I'm flattered.

      --
      evil adrian
    17. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      On a Sunday too... Beats astroturfing for the RIAA any day!

      Btw, why are you replying to ACs at all?

    18. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Magnitude of Spam
      Although the volume of junk e-mail messages is hard to estimate, a best guess based on other studies suggests that some 15 billion messages are spam--or about half of the more than 30 billion messages exchanged daily.

      According to the Pew study, filtering company Brightmail recently measured more than 7.5 million spam attacks, each ejecting between 100 to millions of individual e-mail messages in each attack. Despite this volume, users only see the tip of the iceberg, the report states, thanks to ISPs that deflect much of the spam before it hits subscribers.

      America Online and the Microsoft Network, two of the largest ISPs, report that they divert a daily incursion of 2.4 billion spam messages from their subscribers' in-boxes. AOL estimates this volume translates to an average of 67 messages per in-box per day, or up to 80 percent of its incoming e-mail traffic. According to the report, all of the major ISPs underwrite huge outlays for spam control. In a separate recent finding reported by USA Today, ISPs' costs of managing spam are passed along with an average of a $2 increase in a subscriber's monthly Internet service subscription bill.

      Costs of Spam
      Estimates for spam's price tag vary broadly, from $50 to $1400 per worker per year. Its estimated annual costs to U.S. businesses range from $10 to $87 billion.

      Other costs are felt by online businesses that say e-mail marketing has gotten a bad rap because of spam. These businesses say they've been unfairly lumped with spammers, and that their discreet and legitimate e-mail marketing and communications are not reaching their audience because of spam-filtering technology.

      Spam has spawned a thriving industry. Businesses compile e-mail address lists and sell them. Software makers sell inexpensive applications that enable illegal spam activities, such as disguising sender identities and harvesting e-mail addresses.

      But most legitimate marketers should welcome legislative measures that would choke off spam, says Nancy Costopulos, a senior director at the American Marketing Association, a professional marketing association.

      There will be more and more regulation for e-mail, and it will cost businesses money to comply with the regulations, Costopulos says. But it can't be a self-regulating industry anymore. I would be glad if we can eradicate spam so we can break through the noise. All marketers should be in favor of that."
      http://www.computercops.biz/article3762.ht ml

      I think $1000 per spam is ok.

    19. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 1

      Prove I'm astroturfing. Prove I'm on RIAA's payroll.

      Just because my opinions differ from yours doesn't justify your scarlet-lettering me.

      --
      evil adrian
    20. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Unfortunately, I don't enjoy the far-reaching subpoena powers that the RIAA has, and thus I can't subpoena your bank records to spot those tell tale transfers, I can't subpoena your personal correspondance, and I can't subpoena the IP you use to post to Slashdot...

      Lacking that, the circumstantial evidence which are your non-sequiturial posts is good enough ;-)

    21. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 1

      Actually, if I could have reasonable assurances that you wouldn't try to rip me off, we could meet, and I could show you my bank records for the last few years.

      It's worth it to watch you put your foot in your mouth.

      --
      evil adrian
    22. Re:$1000 per e-mail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Actually, if I could have reasonable assurances that you wouldn't try to rip me off, we could meet, and I could show you my bank records for the last few years.

      Sure. Let's meet in the Nicon Hilton in Abuja, tomorrow evening at 8 pm. Or maybe sometimes next week, if you have trouble makeing it to here on such short notice.

  12. One by One by Schlemphfer · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Perhaps state governments will never be able to stop one man spamming operations that are being run on a shoestring. But there has to be a starting point in fighting spammers, and it makes sense to pick out the largest targets possible. In one stroke, it appears that California has ended PW Marketing's business. And very likely, the state will come out ahead after the fines are paid.

    Perhaps the greatest asset that anti-spamming forces have going for them is that spammers don't have the foggiest idea where each of their spams are going to. Who knows whether joeblow@hotmail.com is an account based in California or Timbuktu? And that, I believe, will pose spammers with an insurmountable problem. They are going to have to make all their spams California-legal, because there's probably not a single spam list out there that doesn't target at least a few dozen people in California.

    Now clearly there will be some people who will say, "This law is unenforceable against offshore spammers." That's fine. The question is, do you want spams coming from both domestic and offshore spamhauses? Getting rid of spam sent within the United States will wipe out a large part of the problem; and not just in terms of numbers of spams sent. It will also disproportionately harm spammers with the greatest financial resources and the greatest technical expertise to overcome spam filters.

    On a side note, I've noticed that for the first time in memory, my daily spam load over the past couple of months hasn't gone up. There's blood in the water.

    --
    I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
    1. Re:One by One by blair1q · · Score: 1

      And the number of telemarketing phone calls I get each day has dropped since the inception of the national Do-not-call deadline. (There was a bit of back-and-forth on the legality of it between the three branches of government, but the industry voluntarily applied it anyway, just in case.)

      Now for the bad news: advertisers will turn to other media, and will be desperate for the access. This will raise the amount they're willing to pay for infomercial time, which will increase the TV stations' willingness to preempt syndicated entertainment for them. We're moving to the model in which local television stations are nothing but infomercials, news, and primetime.

    2. Re:One by One by mentaldrano · · Score: 1

      I think one point people keep coming back to is that the state of California might actually make money suing spammers. That would be a terrible idea. The point of the fine is not to make money for the government (however much they need it) but to stop the offending behavior for the benefit of the people. The government's legal costs are supported by taxes, not fines. Not that spending millions of dollars of government money appeals to me, but we as users of the Internet do see some benefit. Now imagine an over-zealous government agency bringing in money from these suits, and you can easily see someone getting caught in the crossfire. There is a small town near me, sitting right beside a stretch of Interstate 90 that has become one of the worst speed traps in the area. There is actually no property or income tax in this town, as it is entirely supported by speeding ticket fines. There is basically no redress once you are given the ticket, as the courts will nearly always side with the officer. What is to stop California (or any other state) from making this a speeding-ticket style offense? Bottom line, the government should make money from taxes and tariffs (well, maybe not tariffs) and not from fines.

    3. Re:One by One by Simple-Simmian · · Score: 1

      You have just described the current forfeture law over "drugs" it is now a source of income for local law enforcement with all the inherent evil that entails. I live in California and I love the outcome. The "courts" are the people who get the money. It doesn't end up in the states general fund here.

      --
      If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
      Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
  13. Money? Bah! by tarnin · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Who cares about money this early in the game? What we should be caring about is presidence. If this runs though the court system, we can get a presidence that can later be used against other spammers. Thats the name of the game these days. Look at the DMCA. The only presidence it has now is that people settle before it gets challanged.

    Only draw back that I see comming from this an any other spam law is the eventual case of the gov/state/megacorp vs non-spammers. How soon will we be reading a story here about one of those entities suing John Doe user for sending an unsolistied e-mail because he had a gripe? Lets just hope that when presidence does come its specific and not as far reaching and badly worded like the current digital laws.

    1. Re:Money? Bah! by sinistral · · Score: 1

      Interesting combination of executive and judicial branch. Presidency? Precedence?

    2. Re:Money? Bah! by tarnin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Bah its early for me and my first coffee hasnt sunk into my skull yet.

  14. Re:Don't get too excited... by rokzy · · Score: 0

    care to offer an explantion or just trollin' ?

  15. It is in this case. by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 4, Informative
    This takes out one spammer and shows some of the people who spam or thinking about spamming that they may get hit with fines and penalties.


    The money does get put into the state coffers. This is not like the RIAA who keeps the money for themselfs.

    1. Re:It is in this case. by Gherald · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > The money does get put into the state coffers. This is not like the RIAA who keeps the money for themselfs.

      You don't suppose the RIAA has coffers?

    2. Re:It is in this case. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spamming and pirating are two totally different things. Only idiots would compare the two.

    3. Re:It is in this case. by quantaman · · Score: 1

      > The money does get put into the state coffers. This is not like the RIAA who keeps the money for themselfs.

      You don't suppose the RIAA has coffers?


      Yes, that's where they put the money they keep for themselves.

      --
      I stole this Sig
  16. I have an idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Try READING the article before you post. LOOK! I've made it easy for you! I also highlighted the parts you apparently missed...

    California has won a landmark judgement with its first anti-spam ruling after a court fined a marketing firm $2m for sending out millions of unsolicited e-mails telling people how to spam.
    The state's attorney general, Bill Lockyer, brought the case against PW Marketing of Los Angeles County and its owners, Paul Willis and Claudia Griffin in 2002, under a 1998 state anti-spam law.

    The law was strengthened last month to make it easier to sue spammers.
    PW Marketing, Willis and Griffin were charged with sending out millions of e-mails, including advertising $39 guides on how to spam, along with long lists of e-mail addresses of California residents.

    Prosecutors said PW Marketing violated the 1998 anti-spam law because these unsolicited e-mails were sent without a free call number for recipients to phone to stop additional mailings.
    They also failed to follow state requirements to include a valid return address.

    The state attorney, Bill Lockyer, also said the owners illegally tapped into computer users' network connections so the company could send e-mails that could not be traced back to its source.
    The judgement, which Mr Lockyer said will be the model for future spam injunctions, forbids PW Marketing from sending unsolicited commercial e-mails, accessing computers that belong to other people without their permission and disguising its identity by sending messages that appear to originate from a different address.


    The injunction also forbids Willis and Griffin from owning or managing any business that advertises over the internet for 10 years.


    After 1 January, the state's anti-spam laws will get tougher and will also allow private individuals to sue spammers and collect damages of up to $1,000 per e-mail.

  17. free speech my ass by zakezuke · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm all for free speech, even in cases were I don't agree with the person's view point. The stormwatch neo-nazi group is one example of bozos and foofoo heads while I strongly disagree with them, I feel it's their right to make total asses out of them selves.

    At the same time, I reserve the right to censer what i'm exposed to, as a consumer I have every right to do this. To allow adverts of viagra and penis enlargements on the net should be considered free speech and protected under the law. However, spam in my inbox is steping over personal boundries. I accept advertisments as a way to pay for content I view, however spam is getting a free ride and providing income to people who are not associated with providing me e-mail.

    --
    There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
    1. Re:free speech my ass by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Is your sig supposed to have a 'z' in it?
      Typing on a German keyboard?
      Or a German typeing on a US keyboard?

      I guess I just violated the DMCA, oops, sorry.

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    2. Re:free speech my ass by WalterSobchak · · Score: 1

      As far as I recollect, the Supreme Court has made a perfectly clear distiction between "Free Speech" and "Commercial Speech". The later is not free, its freedom stops right at my inbox.
      And no, I feel I can not be forced to listen to anyone's views at my expense either. Publish it on your site? Print in in a paper? Whatever your heart desires. Walk into my house and speak? Put it into my inbox? Nope, no way.

      The parent post phrased this very well: Free Speech my Ass!

      Alex

      --
      Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder
  18. sh*t! by MoFoQ · · Score: 1

    I feel like I just won the lottery, except it might be better since tax code on compensation is different I believe.

    the spam cash cow has finally come MY way.

    (now I can buy solid gold pitchforks and flaming torches)

  19. Re:Yes we are getting closer to the real solution. by tessaiga · · Score: 2, Insightful
    sue not just the spammers, but the companies who hire them and ban their imports to the Unites States
    Oh good! Then instead of hiring spammers to advertise their own products, companies will just hire'em to advertise their competitors' products. I wouldn't be surprised if that works out to be faster and cheaper than trying to push your own products.

    Not to mention the fact that often spammers are resellers of no-name crap products which could easily be relabelled and sold under a different name. Banning products only works if your product name has some value.

    --
    The bold print giveth, and the fine print taketh away ...
  20. Keep in mind they didn't get finded for spamming by MadAnthony02 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They didn't get find for sending spam per se, they got fined for sending spam with specific characteristics - specifically spam with forged headers, no opt-out, and routed through a bunch of hacked computers.

    Maybe this really doesn't make a difference, since most spam has those characteristics. While legitmate email addresses and not routing it through a ton of open relays would be nice, the opt-out part is useless, since almost everyone knows not to respond to op-out on spam, since it usually just results in more spam because they know it's an active address.

  21. Exactly... by imaginate · · Score: 1

    Not to mention that they have been prevented from doing managing an internet advertising business, as many people have brought up.

    Y'know, I don't mean to whine, but posts like your parent just make me sad, not because someone posts a knee-jerk reaction (no, I'm not new here), or because they obviously haven't read the article (there were *two* spammers involved, not just a "him"), it's because the *moderators* don't even take their points seriously enough to read the articles themselves.

    I mean, the ol' "moderators on crack" is nothing new, but geez people, you should be ashamed of yourself for modding that post up. I saw it at +3 and thought, "okay, there's one or two people out there dumb enough to get suckered into a lame post," - but +5? Whatever, I should go on my way and not let it bother me...

  22. Wooden Spoon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I still think it's better to cut off their cojones with a wooden spoon.

  23. Always love the comment of... by Ceadda · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They hacked other mail-servers to send mail for them so it couldnt be traced back to them... Ah... wait a minute... I thought they were selling a physical object... a book on spamming.. which means they would have to have some place to be billed, and also a way to actually mail the book... Hmmm... guess we cant trace credit card purchases, balance transfers.. or US mail anymore.. wow. Musta been real hard to track down?

    --
    *There's Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape em off Jim!*
    1. Re:Always love the comment of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally these companies are spamming for other companies... like hiring a marketing company to do your advertising...

      The company themselves just pays the spammers say a commission per sale after the fact... and then these companies themselves might be offshore companies who's records you would have difficulty auditing... (as in to find out who the spammers are)

  24. Re:Yes we are getting closer to the real solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Then instead of hiring spammers to advertise their own products, companies will just hire'em to advertise their competitors' products

    You're not giving enough credit to Law Enforcement agencies. That possibility would be studied very closely, and attempting to frame your competitors for commiting a felony is the sort of thing that's likely to make heads roll as high as the CEO level. Additionally the number of people that probably have to be involved would probably elevate it to some level of conspiracy charge.

  25. They got away by That_Dan_Guy · · Score: 1

    LA Times reported this this morning. Basicly, the pair have nothing in their name and are residing in Mexico. It is a Civil judgement so we can't extradite them:

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-spam25oct2 5, 1,582808.story

    1. Re:They got away by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      Too bad there isn't some way to just present the judgement to Mexico as a gift from the US. Mexico can then collect it and keep whatever they recover.

      Or perhaps come up with some arrangement where we give Mexico a cut for collecting this judgement for the US. Mexico's cut could be like, 99 %.

      Of course, this will put ideas into Mexico, like maybe they should pass their own laws so that they can get their own $2 Million judgements against spammers. (Unless the US patented this law first.)

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    2. Re:They got away by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      It should also be pointed out that the reason they lost and got fined was because they took the money they made spamming and ran. They didn't show up to defend themselves and lost the case by default.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  26. Re:Keep in mind they didn't get finded for spammin by Codifex+Maximus · · Score: 1

    > They didn't get find for sending spam per
    > se, they got fined for sending spam with
    > specific characteristics - specifically
    > spam with forged headers, no opt-out, and
    > routed through a bunch of hacked computers.

    Yeah, kinda like that guy from "Laberia, Africa"? Heh. I get 2 emails a day trying to get me to help some guy smuggle money out of africa because of some coup in some freaky government.

    And why? Because I forgot to take my regular email addy out of my recently setup email account reply to. It just takes one slip and yer screwed.

    Oh well. **Polishing my brand new email filters**

    --
    Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
  27. forged headers is an important issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    specifically spam with forged headers

    If it were not for those forged headers (in particular the "from") filtering would be much easier for end users.

  28. It's already been appealed. The spammer lost. by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful
    California's anti-spam law has already been tested in the courts. In Ferguson vs. Friendfinder, the case was appealed on constitutionality grounds, and the California Court of Appeal for the First District ruled that the law was constitutional.

    So there.

    1. Re:It's already been appealed. The spammer lost. by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      That's not much of a test.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  29. Re:Keep in mind they didn't get finded for spammin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The use of forged headers, or hijacking computers with which to route their e-mail ought to be made a felony.

  30. Re:Yes we are getting closer to the real solution. by DickBreath · · Score: 1

    Clearly, Company-A had to pay Spammer to spamvertise Company-B.

    Payment would be what must be traced.

    Spammers who do not want to be liable themselves, or at least completely liable, will have records of, and be able to identify exactly who paid them.

    --

    I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  31. so basically, by stud9920 · · Score: 1
    So basically, there are two possible outcomes for spammer trials
    • GET POOR QUICK
    • iow fines
    • ANUS ENLARGEMENT THROUGH NATURAL EXERCISE
    • iow prison
  32. Re:Yes we are getting closer to the real solution. by mark-t · · Score: 1

    There's no doubt it would be considered as fraud, but how can you possibly know *who* authorized the spam, if the company being advertised says they had nothing to do with it? Even if the company had only one known major competitor, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the other company was necessarily responsible either.

  33. Re:Yes we are getting closer to the real solution. by mark-t · · Score: 1
    Spammers who do not want to be liable themselves, or at least completely liable, will have records of, and be able to identify exactly who paid them.
    That's assuming that you can actually find out the particular individual that happens to be the spammer. In practice, at best all you can often hope for is to find the company that is being advertised.
  34. California open season on spammers starts Jan. 1 by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative
    Unless Congress passes a pro-spam law that overrides it, open season on spammers starts January 1. This win was under the old law. The new law simply makes spam illegal:
    • Business and Professions Code 17529.2.
      Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person or entity may not do any of the following:

      (a) Initiate or advertise in an unsolicited commercial e-mail advertisement from California or advertise in an unsolicited commercial e-mail advertisement sent from California.

      (b) Initiate or advertise in an unsolicited commercial e-mail advertisement to a California electronic mail address, or advertise in an unsolicited commercial e-mail advertisement sent to a California electronic mail address.

    The important part is in the details.
    • Anybody in California can sue for $1000 per spam, up to $1,000,000 per incident. (Current law has a $50 limit. The new law makes it worthwhile to go to small claims court for a single spam.)
    • You can sue in small claims court for up to $10,000.
    • You can sue the advertiser, the "beneficiary" of the spam. So you find out where the money goes, and go after them.
    • If the spammer, the advertiser, or the recipient is in Californa, you can sue.
    • ISPs can sue.
    • Class actions are allowed.
    • There's a general provision in California law that anyone can "act as the attorney general" to enforce consumer laws in court, and that applies here.

    The key here is that you can go after the advertiser, not the spammer. You can find the advertiser by following the money. If you put in a credit card number, where does the transaction come out?

    Using an "internet billing service" like iBill won't help. They're actually the "merchant" in such cases. iBill is going to be involved in many spam lawsuits.

    The Direct Marketing Association is frantically lobbying Congress to override this before it goes into effect. S.877, which just passed the Senate, would kill the California law and replace it with a weaker one. But the House hasn't acted. Watch for any last-minute action at the end of the session.

  35. What about all the other fines? by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Parking fines? Does everyone that got hindered by the wrongly parked car get a cut?

    Littering fines? Do the people who had to walk that littered street get their cut?

    Speeding fines? Do the other people on the road that were endangered by the speeder get their cut?

    Those fines usually do two things. One, they help cover the costs of enforcing it (in this case, suing the spammer) and it acts as a public deterrant. I wouldn't compare that to the RIAA at all.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:What about all the other fines? by gfim · · Score: 1

      Speeding fines ... they help cover the costs of enforcing it

      In Victoria (Australia), they do a lot more than that. I reckon the state government's budget could just about be run purely from speeding fines!!

      Graham

      --
      Graham
  36. Upper bound = worst case scenario by Kjella · · Score: 1

    How do you figure a fine of $1,000 per e-mail is a nice clause? One of the biggest complaints I have with the american justice system these days is a broad divsion between crimes and consequences (and in punishing responsibility for harm.) There is no way a single e-mail could cause $1,000 worth of damage.

    Say, mail your preschool pupils very graphic bestiality porn using fake headers impersonating an innocent third party which suffers great harm? Very unlikely? Yes. But could it, under the most extreme of circumstances, be reasonable to fine them $1000/mail? Maybe. And so, I don't have a problem with it as an upper bound. But if that's the blanket fee for a text-only SPAM offering you a cheap mortgage, then it is completely wacko.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  37. Hacking ...! by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    I still think it's better to cut off their cojones with a wooden spoon.

    Now that's what I call hacking ...!

    -kgj

    --
    -kgj
  38. Similar Punishment For Junk Faxes by BoyHowdyAAF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Federal Junk Fax Law provides for penalties of $500 for sending a junk fax. This punishment can be increased to as much as $1500, if the violation of the law was willful or knowing.

    I know that there's more of a problem with externalizing costs with a single junk fax than there is with a single spam e-mail, but in both cases, the punishment is orders of magnitude above the actual damages. That's because you're encouraging the public to take action on this themselves, and there's a significant amount of time and work involved.

  39. Market prices versus damages and fines by mec · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The penalty for violating a law should be much larger than the cost of following the law. Otherwise, people just break the law for free, and only pay if they get caught.

    It's a separate argument whether a law is a good law in the first place. But if you believe, as I do, that spam should be illegal, then it's okay for the penalties to be a lot larger than actual damages.

    For example, go down to the grocery store and shoplift some bread, and then try to get out of the criminal penalties by offering to pay the $2 damages after you get caught.

    1. Re:Market prices versus damages and fines by espo812 · · Score: 1
      The penalty for violating a law should be much larger than the cost of following the law.
      How many orders of magnitude of punishment beyond the origional damage do you want? Say a spam costs $1 (I'd say it costs about a cent, but for aguments sake I'll give you latitude.) A $1,000 fine is THREE orders of magnitude in punishment. That's insane. That's like sending someone to jail for 20-50 years for taking some cycles on a machine without permission. Punishment should appropriately match the offense, that is all.
      --

      espo
    2. Re:Market prices versus damages and fines by k12linux · · Score: 1
      How many orders of magnitude of punishment beyond the origional damage do you want? Say a spam costs $1 (I'd say it costs about a cent, but for aguments sake I'll give you latitude.) A $1,000 fine is THREE orders of magnitude in punishment. That's insane.

      Ok, lets say it costs $.01 instead. And we should only allow a two order of magnatude fine? That's $0.10. Do you really think that is any kind of deterant? And that's the point. The fine isn't to recover damages as much as it is an attempt to offer a deterant to spammers and an incentive for the victims.

      To give it any teeth, the fine has to be big enough to make it worth the victim's time and big enough that not every single victim must file suit.

      Let's go back to a spam costing the recipient $0.01 again. If a spammer sends 1,000,000 messages then that's $10,000 worth of "damages" they are responsible for. The odds of even one of the 1,000,000 recipients going after the $1,000 is fairly slim... so the spammers get off easy at $1,000 per suit.

    3. Re:Market prices versus damages and fines by mec · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How many orders of magnitude beyond the original damage do you want?

      A very good question. I want 2 to 3 orders, roughly. I figure that about 1% of all crimes get brought to prosecution, and I want to make the average penalty higher than the cost of following the law.

      As another poster said, the damage from spamming is usually more than 1 mail in 1 mailbox. If a spammer sends 1,000,000 messages, and they cause $0.01 of damage each (by assaulting other people's attention without permission), that's $10,000 in actual damage.

      That's a serious crime.

      But suppose I subscribe to some e-newsletter from Sony, and then I properly notify Sony that I don't want it any more, but they improperly keep sending it. How much damage am I suffering? $0.01 to $1, we agree. I'm willing to stipulate down close to $0.10. "2 to 3 orders of magnitude" means $10 to $100 for each offense, which seems reasonable to me if I have to actually take them to court.

      Punishment should appropriately match the offense, that is all.

      You know, this is why I like this discuession more than previous Slashdot discussions about spam laws. A lot of people are actually coming out and acknowledging that spammers are human beings; they have the same rights as other human beings; spamming is one crime among many; spamming should be treated in a coherent framework with other crimes.

      Honestly, there were days on Slashdot when it seemd like people wanted to punish spammers more than they would punish Osama Bin Laden.

  40. High-horse Slashdot responses? I say NO. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Duh! Claudia is a technically knowledgeable person who writes all the software? No. She is probably his wife who helps him, probably with clerical work.

    I said I was exaggerating! Duh, again.

    Slashdot is becoming an hysterically angry place. Say anything that has minor imperfections, and some commenters say Idiot! Why I've known that since I was 10 years old! How can you be so stupid! Weapons of Mass Destruction! Let's invade Iraq! Hysterical anger is the climate in the U.S. now.

    Think about what I said for a minute. There is NOTHING, nothing, nothing, to prevent Paul from leaving Claudia, going to Russia, getting himself a mail-order Russian bride (Don't scream; I know he won't need the mail if he is already there.), and using the SAME technology to do the SAME thing.

    If Paul has made more than $2,000,000 already, for example, if he has made $10,000,000, the $2,000,000 won't look as large to him as it does to us.

    Also, he hasn't paid anything yet!!! Duh #3!!! It will be at least 6 years before he pays anything, even if he loses all the appeals.

  41. Pop before SMTP by KalvinB · · Score: 1

    That's a standard thing on (good) mail servers. Mercury Mail uses it. EZMts uses it. You log in with your POP account which validates your IP. You then have a window to send e-mail from that IP address using the account e-mail address you logged into the pop3 account as. You can't log in to POP as BOB and then send mail as STEVE. Or log in to POP on IP 192.168.0.2 and then send e-mail on 192.168.0.3.

    It's the standard method to prevent unauthorized relaying, implemented and on by default in legitimate mail servers. If you need a seperate daemon to handle POP before SMTP, your mail server is garbage. It's such a trivial thing to implement.

    POP3 writes username and IP to file upon successful login (you can even encrypt it if you care) with start time.

    SMTP checks the file when an e-mail attempt comes in to see if the IP, username combo is in the file and if the timeout hasn't occured. If it has, it clears the entry.

    That's it.

    Ben

    1. Re:Pop before SMTP by stmpynode · · Score: 1

      qwest started doing this and it's been a big pain for me. i never use their pop servers. i have a pop account somewhere else, but i use qwest for my isp. all of a sudden one day i couldn't send mail anymore. turns out i have to start checking a useless pop account, then send my mail.

      --

      Blah.

    2. Re:Pop before SMTP by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      This assumes you get your mail from the same server. I don't. This would be a total pain in the ass for me.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:Pop before SMTP by JVert · · Score: 1

      Frankly I think it would be best practice to check your email account given to you from your ISP. Like it or not its a line of communication that ISP's like to use to talk to their users.

    4. Re:Pop before SMTP by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      I don't have an account, nor an ISP. My company ASSIGNED me an email account. I don't give a crap where my company gets its internet service from. In addition it looks ghetto to have business cards printed with @city.rr.com or whatever.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  42. [OT] but interesting (to me?)... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >Speeding fines? Do the other people on the road that were endangered by the speeder get their cut?

    I rear-ended another car not so long ago. Nothing serious, the "victim" just needed a new bumper. I paid them $500 CDN for it, they were very happy to forget about the whole thing. Unfortunately, it was a taxi, and by law here, service vehicles have to call the police for any accident, no matter how small.

    So, the cop comes by, and decides to write me a ticket for "following too close" (which I wasn't, I was passing improperly, but whatever, I take all tickets to court, even $10 parking fines). On the ticket there's a $25 "victim's surcharge". Does the person I hit receive that? No. But he's the obvious "victim", right? Wrong. Somehow the government feels itself a victim when I rear-end someone elses car. I suppose the police are a victim, considering they had to do the job they're paid to do.

    I propose we change the definition of "victim" to mean "Anyone who has to do any work".

    Fortunately, I highly doubt I'll have to pay up, as it'll be almost a year before my case goes to trial (must be a lot of officers writing silly tickets). But it's still stupid.

  43. Only 2 million dollars? by johnnys · · Score: 1

    That's all? No death penalty? They got off easy.

    --
    Sometimes the "writing on the wall" is blood spatter...
    1. Re:Only 2 million dollars? by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      You're too hard on them. A spam's no more annoying than a paper cut.

      Now if 50 million people were all allowed to give them 50 paper cuts each, then thepunnishment would defiitely fit the crime.

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    2. Re:Only 2 million dollars? by VanillaCoke420 · · Score: 1

      And how often do you get a hundred papercuts per day? (I do agree though, punishment doesn't need to be cruel or barbaric.)

  44. Re:California open season on spammers starts Jan. by jasonhamilton · · Score: 1

    > What happens if a competitor sends spam on your "behalf"?

    --
    SearchIRC - Now with live chat directory!
  45. Retarded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Getting closer to what? A police state? Gee, I'm so excited.

  46. Mod parent UP!!!! by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Mod parent UP!!!!

    Excellent analysis.

  47. Pessimism by knautilus316 · · Score: 1

    As much as you people criticize this, it is a step in the right direction. Like it or not, the spam problem isn't going away overnight - we need persistent, and relentless legal action.

    ~Knautilus

  48. Wake me up... by mabu · · Score: 1

    ...when the headline reads, "Spammer sent to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison."

  49. Re:Keep in mind they didn't get finded for spammin by mabu · · Score: 1

    They didn't get find for sending spam per se, they got fined for sending spam with specific characteristics - specifically spam with forged headers, no opt-out, and routed through a bunch of hacked computers.

    What really irks me is that they were nailed on the most innocuous of charges: mail labelling, when they broke into third-party computers, which is a much more serious transgression, and according to the USA Patriot Act, a potential capital crime.

  50. FBI kicking down their doors by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 1

    However, I wouldn't jump too high right now. I think we are just changing the game, not winning it. Here's an example [link to Symantec info on a new trojan] of what spammers are doing now.

    No, that's great. It's wonderful that spammers are resorting to writing worms and trojans.

    Why?

    Because instead of civil action and various legal gray areas with sending spam, these bastards will have the FBI kick in their door one night and arrest them. No cute little civil proceedings attempting to discover whether or not they have a "free speech" right to fill *my* mailbox with *their* crap.

    Personally, I hope they get pistol-whipped at the same time.

    --
    Fire and Meat. Yummy.
  51. Re:Keep in mind they didn't get finded for spammin by fermion · · Score: 1
    And for the most part that is the best we can hope for. For example, with the postal service, we expect commercial letters to be sent through the postal service, with a valid return address, and a clear identification of who what the product is and who is selling it. We tolerate deceptive ads because we know that if it crosses a line, there will generally be consequences.

    With tele-marketers, we expect the same level of accountability. There should be a firm we can call. Tele-marketers in general do not give out the telephone number of the next door neighbor who left dog poop on the lawn that morning, nor do they, as a matter of course, reroute their phone lines, though they might send out phony caller id info. Of course tele-marketers are in the same kind of trouble as spammers as they tend to be extremely deceptive and consume a limited resource.

    Which is to say that spam would be much less of a problem if it did have correct headers. Users could filter it if they so chose to, and exceedingly deceptive firm would face consequences. We would be at the uncomfortable equilibrium we accept.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  52. Comparing spamming and pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Pirating you steal copywritten materials. Spamming you steal computing resources to send out your advertising, and sometimes hack into other peoples systems so that you may hide.


    If spamming is legal and honorable, why don't spammers include their real information all the spam?>

  53. Re:California open season on spammers starts Jan. by cpeterso · · Score: 1


    just follow the money. Nail the company that hired the spammer, regardless of what the spam advertises.

  54. MEEP! Moderators! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Put down the crack pipe. And mod the idiot (parent) as troll or at least as flamebait (or overrated, if you must).

    Ass-rape. Insightful? Please!

  55. Re:California open season on spammers starts Jan. by jasonhamilton · · Score: 1

    It's not always possible to find who sent the spam. My point is a competitor can set someone up using the logic of the money trail with little to no evidence of their involvement.

    --
    SearchIRC - Now with live chat directory!
  56. Governator to spammers by MainframeKiller · · Score: 1


    Hasta la vista, spam!

    --
    http://www.club977.com/ - The 80's Channel!
    Your source for commercial free 80's music!
  57. Re:Don't get too excited... by Badanov · · Score: 1
    Without advertising the model for free speech simply doesn't work. A newspaper cannot pay its writers or editors without the means provided through advertising. So it is with email advertising.

    If a person can't make money simply because the means of communications he has chosen is politically unpopular, the issue of equal protection (14th Amendment) becomes an issue. Just because right now the latest thing to hate is people who advertise through email, what happens when legislatures pass laws saying rap music, since it is offensive or an unacceptable form of expression?

    I can tell you what happens: every slashdot leftist starts jerking off about how the 'man' is trying to kill their rights. This is popular speech but it is not entitled to more protection than commercial speech is. Commercial speech is about 1st Admentment rights.

    Commercial speech is just as vital and critical a matter as political speech and should enjoy all the protections that political and artistic speech enjoy.

    You don't kill the messenger just because you don't like the means of delivery or the content.

    I am afraid this is what slashdot Marxists and liberals want you be believe: that because somone is making money at it, their speech becomes less vital than an artist or a politicians.

    --
    Dawn of the Dead
  58. Re:Don't get too excited... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jesus, you could have just "Just trolling", instead of wasting your time with that bullshit.

  59. $1000 per e-mail + Attorney's fees + Damages by sybert · · Score: 1

    Read the text of the bill (SB 186). The law has $1000 per email plus 'Actual damages' (claim that your CEO's valuable time has been wasted by spam) plus 'reasonable attorney's fees and costs' (claim all your time and costs of tracking down the spammer). The new bill is nothing but a massive gift to trial lawyers and is an attack on any California business involved in any sort of email marketing. Spam is annoying but it is not an excuse to pass job-killing legislation. The existing bill is quite adequate and I would rather not have the marketing industry and their jobs and tax revenue fleeing the state.

    I normally don't welcome the federal government interfering in state matters but the California Legislature is certifiable.

  60. A suggestion by Alphtoo · · Score: 1

    Looks like California has taken a potentially giant step in the right direction. Now in order to build momentum I suggest they pass a law requiring state proceeds from such judgememts to be used strictly for tracking and prosecuting cybercrime. I hope other states will follow California's lead and pass such laws of their own.

  61. Think more carefully. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1
  62. Not So Bad Now... But Down The Road? by Steve+B · · Score: 1
    The injunction also forbids Willis and Griffin from owning or managing any business that advertises over the internet for 10 years.

    I would like to see this become a routine penalty, and to survive as such into an era when it has the effect of relegating the target to menial scrub labor.

    --
    /. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
  63. I am thinking plenty carefully. by imaginate · · Score: 1

    You may not read this, but I just noticed your reply on my page, so this is the best I can do.

    Despite your repeated use of "Duh", I will say it again: there was nothing insightful about your original post. Oddly enough, there actually *were* a couple interesting points in your second - why didn't you post them?

    It's strange that you rant about slashdot becoming hysterically angry, but then "Duh" "Duh" "Duh#3" away. Also strange that you seem to be decrying knee-jerk negative reactions, when that's exactly what your original post expressed - a complaint that a fine and a sanction was just a drop in the bucket (*you* might think about what you said for a minute as well).

    Your justification for this is all based on completely unfounded conjecture - and you want me to glean all that conjecture from your post. First off, there is nothing to prevent *anyone* from going to russia, getting a mail-order bride (why he would want to do that is beyond me) and spamming... but outlawing someone from continuing (their current) business in a country is pretty severe, about as severe a non-violent sanction as a government can bring down upon a person. And sure, he may have made 10 million, or 10 billion, but how do we know, and how is pooh-poohing a fine in relation to what he might have made relevant? I might even argue that at least a lower fine is more likely to be enforced. And how do you know what his wife does or does not do?

    Indeed, as you say, he hasn't paid anything yet, and may never will... perhaps *this* should have been the topic of your original post, because it is a tad bit more insightful than the primary point.

    What stood out to me in your original post was that the detail you lacked was pretty key - unlike a spelling error, it hinted at the fact that you hadn't read the article. Even that would have been a big deal if it weren't for my perception (flawed as it may be) that your post was absolutely the most obvious reaction to the slashdot posting, and that it expressed a point that is comes up in every single article about spammer fines - something to the effect of "So what? It's a drop in the bucket".

    So, to me, "most obvious reaction" coupled with "missing clearly stated details" made me think you hadn't bothered to read or truly think about what was going on... I apologize if this wasn't true.

  64. I was just voicing the common perception. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    The fact that my original post was quickly modded up showed that I was only expressing what was in the mind of many people.

    1. Re:I was just voicing the common perception. by imaginate · · Score: 1

      Rush Limbaugh expresses what's in the mind of many people too.

  65. Purposes of the courts by phorm · · Score: 1

    Among them, there is restitution (making amends, usually paying back), but another purpose is deterrence, and well as punitive purposes.

    These fines are intended to server as a punitive measure, as well as a deterrent from further such actions from the charged as well as others with similar ideas - which is what we want to help in stopping spam.

  66. We've been through this. by phorm · · Score: 1

    It's called a "Joe Job", and it's easy to do. Maybe a spammer doesn't like it when company XYZ calls to complain about the emails they've been getting. Therefore, next time around said spammer uses XYZ as the return address and also spams out "Buy product X from company XYZ" to the annoyance of thousands.

    Now, XYZ was never involved in spam, but if they were charged we've got a bunch of emails with their business name on it, and maybe even a phone-record that they called the spamming "advertiser" (even though the call was actually to complain).

  67. Scale by phorm · · Score: 1

    A fine under $1000 is painful to many normal individuals. But a fine of $1000 is meaningless to many large operators.

    It's fine to say that spam is low-damage, but if it were $10/email you wouldn't get anywhere unless you collected together an awful lot of individuals in a class-action against the spammer.

    If you could wrangle $300 worth of your time from a spammer easily, it might satisfy you, but it wouldn't help the problem.

    Oh, and we're not just questioning the RIAA's action of suing people, the real root of it is whether the DCMA is a violation of people's rights, especially in reference to seizure of personal info without a court warrant.

    But nonetheless, a blanket fine of $2,000,000 against a filesharer is stupid, and so is a $25 fine against a spammer for spamming.

  68. What about spam bounces? by Hungry+Admin · · Score: 1

    Does this mean I can sue all those clueless admins who keep bouncing spams at me that I never sent? I own a domain name that is being forged in the "From:" line of many spams.

    --
    Be who you are and say what you feel, because the people who mind don't matter, and the people who matter don't mind.