Dell DJ: Yet Another MP3 Player

X Bass writes "Available Tuesday, Dell's 15 and 20GB DJ adds to the growing field of iPod wannabes. Is it worthy or is it just another player that falls short of the iPod's greatness?"

Comments

a link that doesn't suck

[jbellis]

here

I'm probably not the only one more interested in photos than in learning that it has a 3.6h charge time. :)

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[Ianoo]

I'm starting to get fed up with review sites that have so many adverts they don't bother to actually include a picture of the product they're talking about. CNET is a big offender, as is Anandtech, but the site on the end of this link is just as bad. I mean, it's a cliche but a picture really does tell a thousand words.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[watzinaneihm]

The poster of the story missed a lot of stuff in the blurb. Dell has launched a Musicplayer, a music store, high speed internet connection and a HDTV. Its all there on the page jbellis linked to.
So Dell is no longer a PC maker?

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[iCEBaLM]

Yeah, the "Dell Digital Music Store" has a great selection, I went to that page and imagine my surprise at seeing:

Check out Hoobastank's newest single!

I had to read that name atleast 5 times, while laughing, to make sure it was real.

-- iCEBaLM

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[self assembled struc]

wait a second...

you signed your post "iCEBaLM" and you're making fun of a band named "hoobastank."

Pot, meet kettle.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[worm eater]

So Dell is no longer a PC maker?

Yes and no. The music store is just a branded version of the Musicmatch store, so it's not really Dell, but just a convenient partnership. The Dell DJ is just a relatively minor foray into consumer electronics. I wouldn't want to say that Apple is no longer a PC maker because of the iPod, nor that Microsoft is no longer a software maker because of the XBox. I think if the Dell DJ and the HDTVs take off, then Dell could become the next Sony (who just laid of 20,000 workers). But I would stay right now they are just testing the waters.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[jargoone]

So you addressed the feel, and the looks. That's great, but I tend to listen to my mp3 player. It sits on my desk or in my car, and I don't give a rat's ass about people being unimpressed by my choice of electronics.

Not everybody is as self-conscious, and has the same needs, as you.

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[jared_hanson]

Imagine that, offering up a download from a reasonably popular band. Huh, who woulda guessed?

Hoobastank made a significant amount of airtime on MTV a year and a half ago, or so. It was their first album, and I assume this single is from their second (possibly forthcoming?) album. Not sure the name of the single, but I'd look it up if I was at my main computer. Descent CD too, real Incubus sounding (though you probably aren't aware of that name either).

Re:a link that doesn't suck

[gamgee5273]

Or they could be the next late-'90's HP or mid-'90's Apple. Remember the QuickTake? The MacTV? The Pippin, the Apple set-top box, the printers, the floppy discs, the cds...I think Apple even branded small children who just happened to walk by 1 Infinite Loop.

Dell is on the line between becoming the next Sony or completely losing focus, like Apple and HP did in the '90s. The thing to keep in mind about Sony is that they grew to where they are in a different era, and consumer electronics is a completely different starting point than computer manufacturing.

And, also keep in mind that the layoffs are because of losses Sony is incurring due to poor sales of the PS2 (who doesn't have one? I saw a homeless guy playing one the other day...) and their Trinatrons. Once there is a reason for more people to buy a PS2 (or PS X or PS3 or whatever), once they start moving massive amounts of Wega sets (you've seen the commercials, right?) and if there is reason to buy a PSP, then Sony is on top again. Now, will #1 happen any time soon? No, I don't think it'll happen without a move to a $99 price for the PS2 or introduce the PS3 early. But the other two could, possibly, bring some of those 20K jobs back, especially the move to the flat panel sets (the PSP is in an uphill battle against the GameBoy). So Sony is not out of the game. Far from it.

So, if Dell is aiming for Sony, I would suggest they look closely at the lessons Apple and HP have to offer and think very carefully about what they're up against. Sony isn't rolling over for anyone, least of all a cut-rate PC vendor.

Acronyms

[Ianoo]

Methinks Slashdot needs a new acronym. YAIPOD, anyone?

Re:Acronyms

[Anonymous Coward]

"Go And See This Rival iPod", or, GASTRIPOD

the people that chose thig thing over an iPod

[the_2nd_coming]

will get sick of it when tehy get lost in that god awful MMJB Store.

picture

[YanceyAI]

Well, I searched and searched for an image because they said this:

Nice interface, smooth, curvy, and durable design, sweetly glowing blue lights...

But the best I could come up with is the animation on their USA site

Also, I thought this was an interesting subhead for the article:

An Affordable and Easy Way to Legally Download Your Favorite Songs and Albums emphasis mine.

Re:picture

[7*6]

I think paying the wrong artists hurts music.

Loads of the greatest classical works ever written were only written so the composer could make some scratch. However a lot of these composers would be working on something amazing on their own time and composed for roalty and richies to put food on the table and get their music heard.

Today the same thing still happens, however I think the artists you're talking about are the ones who are created by the record companies and who are not actually contributing greatly to their art. They just spend money in their spare time and make others look bad.

Paying for good music is a great idea as it keeps great music coming. It's paying for shit that is stupid and detrimental.

Re:picture

[rbbs]

It is telling that the page they have on it has no pictures...
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topic s/segtopic.as px/brand/delldj?c=us&l=en&s=gen

compare that to the apple one...
http://www.apple.com/ipod/

ugly beast if you ask me. there is a lot to be said for looking good if you're selling to teenagers and 20 somethings.
i know which i'd rather have.

Archos av340

[way2trivial]

I may have spent twice the cash, but for 652 shipped, I have a "twice the hard drive" 40 gig device that I can watch movies on..

I do wish to christ my pc's TV recording software could record to the format the Archos uses for input.. conversion of every file is a pain in the ass..
but I can take my weekly shows with me when I want them

and speaking of photos

[jbellis]

the dell dj (gah) is not as good-looking as the nomad zen nx let alone the ipod. Disappointing. :-|

Re:and speaking of photos

[Eccles]

Or if you are a student then no need to take notes.

Isn't the point of notes so that you can have something to review that takes less time to review than the class itself?

Dells Dud

[Tomeck]

Interesting and relevant article: http://daringfireball.net/2003/10/dells_dud.html Tom

Why is the iPod so much better?

[bjb]

I keep reading about these iPod wanna-bes, but after never really using any of them, I have to wonder: if the big thing is that the iPod has a built in hard drive, ample memory for caching, and good sound, why can't the several competitors make something good as well?

In other words, what makes the iPod the "gold standard" over all the others which seem to have similar specs?

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[FatAlb3rt]

I've had Creative's Nomad Jukebox 3 (20G) for almost a year now. It's about the size of a portable CD player, so it's bigger than an Ipod. I don't see it's size as a problem, but the biggest drawback is the interface - it's a bit clunky, doesn't have a fast response, and navigating for a song isn't as easy as an Ipod. That's why I think Ipod is the standard - they produced an outstanding and compact product from the beginning.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

Several things make the iPod the one to get:

1. Firewire connection for fast synchronization. This feature is huge. When I add a couple albums to my iTunes playlist, I can dump them into my iPod almost instantly.

2. Small and light. When I unplug the headphones, it's less weight or bulk than my wallet, and I often carry it in the pocket of my jeans. This not only makes it nice for jogging, but at serves double duty as a "pull out" media player for my car when I park in bad neighborhoods.

3. AAC support. Okay, Ogg Vorbis is more Stalmanist, blah blah blah, but AAC at 128 sounds as good or better, at least to me, as VBR MP3 while taking up less space on the HD.

4. It can double as a portable Firewire/USB2 hard drive. It serves as massive storage for your digital camera, or a great way to "sneaker net" a Linux distro to another building.

5. Price. For once, Apple is not selling the most expensive product on the market. The iPod sells for very little above what the HD alone would sell for.

If there's something I would improve about the iPod, it's RAM. Bumping up the memory to 64MB would mean even longer battery life and better support for really long tracks. If an iPod were available for $100 more that doubled the memory, I would definitely trade up.

Another improvement that would be nice would be to somehow get rid of the momentary pause between tracks. I hate joining tracks just to avoid that interruption.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[krs-one]

Probably because it was the first, or at least the first one that combined function with style extremely well.

-Vic

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Talez]

6) iTunes.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[ozbird]

It can double as a portable Firewire/USB2 hard drive.

This is probably the real reason for the iPod's popularity - they can be slipped into purchase orders for Apple hardware as an "external Firewire HDD", and managers won't bat an eyelid! ;-)

(No I don't have an iPod, you insensitive clod!)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[matthew.thompson]

The usual apple reasons.

- It just works.
- It's industrial design is a notch above the rest - the latest version has no moving buttons on the main control area - no pocket fluff can get in and clog the works.
- Firewire syncing and charging from one cable. This is far better than USB syncing as it provide more current and allows for just as fast, if not faster syncs than USB 2.0
- It's smaller - it's about the smallest hard drive based play you can buy
- Sound quality - the iPod doesn't sacrifice sound quality, there are technically better sounding units but the tradeoffs make the iPod a leader
- iTunes integration - ratings, sound check, play lists, etc - make a change on the iPod to a rating and it syncs back to the iTunes database.
- add-ons - line out on the dock, media card reader, microphone etc - the iPod has loads of accessories that are tailored specifically for it rather than generic add-ons which may or may not work.
- User interface - even with the revised top 4 buttons instead of the buttons around the you can operate it one handedly and everything is easy to read and get through.

There's probably more but I can't sit here and type all day - I have 2200 tracks to listen to on my iPod :o)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[nuxx]

3. AAC support. Okay, Ogg Vorbis is more Stalmanist, blah blah blah, but AAC at 128 sounds as good or better, at least to me, as VBR MP3 while taking up less space on the HD.

Psst. Not to be rude, but at 128kbps MP3 and AAC will take the same amount of space for the same length track. AAC will sound markedly better.

I personally used to be a huge Ogg Vorbis fan, then I got an iPod and went back to MP3s for convience. Having acquired a G5 earlier this month, I decided to try reripping parts of my collection to AAC, just as a test. And there is a difference.

I have my iPod running line in to my car stereo, and with 192kbps MP3s (using Apple's encoder, which is very good), they'd occasionally sound flat, somewhat muffled, and just generally not as good as the in-dash stereo. Switching to same-bitrate AACs, everything sounds a bit brighter, almost indistinguishable from audio CDs in the player itself.

I've seen the same results in my living room as well, where I have a second dock running line out straight into the stereo.

Regarding the parent post, though, I think that the big seller with the iPod is the interface. It works night and day better than the competition, and the menuing system is very, very similar to the 'Browse' layout in iTunes.

Apple is big on design and style. Combine this, with a product that works very well and is priced reasonably, and you've got a winner. ...and it's been proven.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[Golias]

1. The iPod has a remote control feature. I don't use it. The iPod itself is smaller than a lot of my remotes.

2. FM Radio would have been a spiffy feature 30 years ago when radio didn't suck. There are very few markets left that have stations worth listening to.

3. Also available for iPod, although it's an external device.

4. That's not a bad feature, if you have an amp that takes digital/optical in, and has better D/A logic than the player.

5. Unless I'm bootlegging a Phish concert or something, I would never use that feature. If I want to record, I will be doing it in my studio, which has a desktop machine for that.

Now let's talk about the iRiver's lack of anything like iSync, the piss-poor interface, the horrible and fragile-looking game-console style thumbstick controller jutting out of the front, total lack of either AAC or OGG support (they promise it as a future "firmware upgrade,"), meaning you will need to encode VBR MP3 at 192+ to realize any kind of worthwhile sound, 1970s Volvo-like boxiness... Unless you need the FM radio or recording capabilities, it is an inferior solution that costs more.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[radish]

I'm sticking with my Rio Karma thanks:

1. USB2 for sync - basically just as quick as firewire.

2. Just as small and light. Actually, it's smaller in terms of width and height, but thicker to make up. Overall physical volume is about the same.

3. Support for Vorbis, FLAC, mp3, wma and a bunch of others. More coming.

4. It can double as a portable USB2 drive although you do have to use an app to load stuff onto it.

5. Price is pretty similar to iPod I think.

Oh and it plays whatever length of tracks you want, does proper gapless playback (or at least it will when the next firmware release comes out of beta), way more options from a UI point of view, and has built in ethernet with a webserver running right on the unit. Battery life is much better than iPod too.

Rulez ;)

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[b-baggins]

Yeah, she was so dumb, that she called up the University to find out what the actual requirements from the University were and to verify her son's requests.

What is really dumb is confusing ignorance with stupidity.

Re:Why is the iPod so much better?

[radish]

Yes it is supported under Linux. You can use the ethernet hookup to connect and then the music manager app is served from the unit itself as a Java app. So it works on any os which supports ethernet and Java. There are native versions of the software for Windows and (I think) Mac, but the Java one does everything you need.

I'm not sure if you can use the USB hookup under Linux, maybe. Check out www.riovolution.com for a decent forum with a presence from the developers.

mp3 players = natural market extension

[davejenkins]

What do OEMs contemplate?

So, everyone who wants a computer has one now, no new market there. Everyone who wants a laptop has one now, no new market there either... Now what?

Cell phones? nah-- not dependent on PCs, and hardware too disposable.

PDAs? Yea, we tried that, but market not really that big (mostly just businessman toy-mongers). We have some products there, and they are doing okay.

Hrmmmm... peripherals, peripherals....

I know! That iPod thingy is pretty cool. And Apple usually makes new markets pretty well! Let`s make an mp3 player!

---

I would expect an mp3 player from Sony, Samsung, and maybe Hitachi. IBM and HP are too into the high-end server market to bother.

iPod greatness!?

[daBass]

I am not disputing that the iPod is a good player, but what is great about only 8 hours battery life (and that much only when playing disgusting sounding 128Kb MP3s) without the option of taking a spare? How good are controls so sensitive it's way too easy to make the player do things you don't want? And did I mention soundquality is not oustanding, but just OK? So how does a 50% greater price tag make up for the slightly smaller size?

There was a time when the iPod was the only game in town, but it isn't anymore and there are other good players out there. I am a very satisfied owner of a Creative Jukebox Zen NX 30GB.

Maybe all those spammer are right, size does matter and bigger is better.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[darnok]

As a proud iPod owner, I have to respond to this ;->

The controls are pretty sensitive, but when you're carrying it around with you, you use the remote and disable the controls on the iPod itself. The remote's buttons aren't anywhere near as sensitive - you have to give them a decent push to use them.

The sound quality is winning "audiophile" recommendations; it's more than "just OK".

With respect to the high price tag, Apple got smart when they put a (token) address book and calendar on there. They're very close to useless, but the existence of these features qualifies the iPod as a tax deductible expense for lots of people. If you like, the "50% greater price tag" is being subsidised by the government. The lack of these features on other MP3 players means they don't qualify as being tax deductible, so they "cost more" as a result.

The addition of several 3rd party add-ons is also helping to push the iPod. Along with the expected car charges, battery kits etc., there's a FM transmitter (listen to your iPod through the car stereo without wiring it up!), an addon to dump your digital camera's card contents onto the disc and a few others that aren't of any interest to me personally. The 3rd party market sets the iPod apart from the rest; these features simply aren't available on other MP3 players.

I have to agree about the 8 hour battery life, though; it's not enough to commute to and from work and to use at work, which is what I'd like. Furthermore, since the life of the internal battery is limited to so many recharges, I suspect the iPod becomes a throwaway item after a couple of years when the batteries won't hold a charge any more.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[Golias]

I have to agree about the 8 hour battery life, though; it's not enough to commute to and from work and to use at work, which is what I'd like.

I use the Belkin 12V cigarette-lighter adapter, which also uses the firewire port's line-outs, to listen in the car. If my iPod is slightly depleated in the morning, it gets charged up for the day during the commute, so I've yet to run the battery down while in the office.

As for battery replacements, some hackers have already done it, and it's not quite as hard as you would think, as long as you can get your hand on the right battery.

Re:iPod greatness!?

[jpkunst]

I suspect the iPod becomes a throwaway item after a couple of years when the batteries won't hold a charge any more.

There are third-party battery replacements for the iPod available: http://www.pdasmart.com/ipodpartscenter.htm. (First item on the page.)

JP

Not universally supported however.

[rueben]

OS Supported: Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP, Windows 2000
Supported Media Players: Dell Jukebox by Musicmatch, Windows Media Player 9, RealONE Player

Well, the iPod was only available to Apple users to start with and they sold pretty well...

I wonder if you can use this as a device to store files like the iPod. If it is plug-and-pray w/USB 2.0, couldn't they say it is supported by any OS that supports USB?

Can't load music from outside sources

[abe ferlman]

According to the review I read, this device only lets you load music through the musicmatch jukebox service- is this their way of trying to enforce DRM?

Is it really too much to ask for a USB mass storage interface? It's so simple, and everyone who has a computer understands it- it's just a new disk.

Geez.

Re:Can't load music from outside sources

[jdreed1024]

Is it really too much to ask for a USB mass storage interface? It's so simple, and everyone who has a computer understands it- it's just a new disk.

Which is another benefit the iPod has going for it. It's a simple firewire disk drive (I think the second generation ones are USB2 drives or firewire drives - I have an older model). Plug it in, and your Mac (or PC, if you formatted it as FAT32) will see it as a plain vanilla firewire drive. You can dump files on there without affecting your its use as a music player at all (well, unless you specifically go in and erase the hidden directory structure containing the MP3s, but that takes effort and it's your own damn fault).

My iPod has saved my ass more than once - once when I had to take my laptop in for servicing, I simply backed up my important data to the iPod, and wiped the laptop drive (I don't trust the technicians). Again when I had to bring a large (read ~2.3GB) data set into work. I did not have a DVD burner (nor did work have a machine that reads DVD-ROMs), and uploading that much data via a cable modem that's throttled to 256Kbps upstream sucks hard. So, I could either have archived the data set with zip or rar and split it across several CDs, or used my iPod. The latter option was decidedly faster, and worked great.

A friend was telling me how I got screwed by spending twice as much on my iPod as he spent on his Nomad, but I told him, add up how much you spent on your Nomad and how much you spent on your 1GB pendrive, and now see who got the better deal. Of course, if you care about WMA audio, then maybe this Dell player or something similar is the way to go for you. Me, I prefer to keep my MP3s on an open filesystem.

It's an MP3 player ...

[peatbakke]

... and ... well, I guess that's it. Can I use it as a portable hard drive? Can I use it to sync calendars and contacts between work and home? Can I extend it with accessories for voice recording, download from compact flash cards, play games, or hack away with my own scripts?

I dunno. If I'm going to spend $300 on a gadget, it better do a hell of a lot more than simply play music. I think a full featured iPod with 10 GB of space is hell of a better deal than a 20 GB hard drive with a head phone jack.

Close but no cigar

[SuperBanana]

Is it worthy or is it just another player that falls short of the iPod's greatness?

Let's see:

• iPod: revision #3 or 4(I've lost track.) Like the rest of Apple's electronics, each revision is better than the last and encorporates everything they learned from the previous. Dell: first shot. Probably went to taiwanese companies and said "make us an iPod".
• Larger all around
• buttons versus iPod's touch-sensitive, sealed, no-moving-parts interface
• No remote, no mic, no flash reader, no nifty powered-from-iPod FM transmitters.
• Not cross-platform
• Not useable as a storage device(or is it? Couldn't tell)
• Not nearly as pretty(chrome, white.Tough to beat)
• World's most popular online music service versus...musicmatch.

I take it back- not even close.

Good for the iPod

[KJE]

We may joke about this being YAiPOD, but i think having things like the Dell DJ and the Rio Karma out on the market will are a great thing for the iPod.

When the iPod originally came out, it was out of this world. Nobody had seen anything like it. Now it's a couple of years later, and yes it's smaller, and got a bigger hard drive, but not a lot has changed.

Having these new music players on the market is going to make Apple have to start thinking again. I'm not saying that Apple has to come out and give us a brand new, kick ass iPod (although I wouldn't be supprised if they did), it's just that now, they're going to have to work for that marketshare.

A summary of what's up

[Schlemphfer]

1) How does it look?

The form factor is exactly what you'd expect from something with Dell on the nameplate: it's totally nondescript. It's actually made by Creative Labs and rebranded. As far as looks go, it's not an iPod any more than my 1990 Accord is a Porsche 911. In other words, it's not bad looking, but it's not good looking either.

2) What advantages does it have?

It looks like there's one, and only one, big advantage of this over the iPod -- this thing has a 16 hour battery life (The Tech TV people tested it and says you will get 15 hours.) That is a really compelling feature; when I spend an entire day driving, or have a long flight with a nasty layover, I can toast my iPod's battery.

The Dell is also a bit cheaper, but not by a lot. A 20 MB unit goes for $329, while Apple sells its 20 MB iPod for $399 at its store. I'd personally want to see the Dell more like 50% cheaper than the iPod for it to be a compelling alternative.

3) Is it an iPod killer?

In battery life, yes. In price, sort of. In looks, absolutely not. Tech TV gives a slight nod to the iPod, but without saying why.

Dell's entry into the field just means that digital music players are no longer cutting-edge products, and are about to be commodified. Expect to be able to get a good one, though perhaps not an iPod, for under $100 within the next couple years.

Re:A summary of what's up

[amembleton]

It looks like there's one, and only one, big advantage of this over the iPod -- this thing has a 16 hour battery life (The Tech TV people tested it and says you will get 15 hours.) That is a really compelling feature; when I spend an entire day driving, or have a long flight with a nasty layover, I can toast my iPod's battery.

The Dell is also a bit cheaper, but not by a lot. A 20 MB unit goes for $329, while Apple sells its 20 MB iPod for $399 at its store. I'd personally want to see the Dell more like 50% cheaper than the iPod for it to be a compelling alternative.

Wouldn't you get a bit bored listening to 20MB of music over and over for 16 hours?

And what about the iHP-120

[NtwoO]

As if Iriver didn't make a suitable match to these dogs. The I river comes with Ogg support and a whizz of cool features. They may be a little more expensive, but it tends to be worth every penny.

Lack of apt-get for iPod/Dell DJ biggest problem

[Debian Troll's Best]

Due to the many hours I spend flying these days attending various open source conferences, a good MP3 player with large capacity and battery life is a must. I have been considering the Apple iPod, and now the Dell DJ very seriously. However, there is one very big shortcoming which both of them suffer from.

apt-get support is absolutely non-existent. When I want my music synchronized from my Debian box to my MP3 player, I want to do it with a simple 'apt-get install music' command. And when Justin Timberlake launches his latest album, adding it to my collection should only be a simple matter of 'apt-get upgrade Justin-Timberlake'.

Does anyone know if there is planned apt-get support in either of these MP3 players any time soon? It's a big issue for me. The only other thing I'd like to see changed is the iPod's interface be altered to use the 'dselect' interface for selecting songs and playlists. That would be cool.

It doesn't look so bad

[gsdali]

not as good as my 3rd generation iPod but good nonetheless. It looks pretty big to me but the photos may not do it justice. It doesn't appear to have PIM features , which I find very useful on the iPod, but I'm sure a small software updates would sort that out.

I'd like to see some real world battery life figures. I get much less than the Apple advertised 8 hours but then I use it to drive fairly high impedance headphones.

We'll have to see how it sells though and how it faces up in a marketplace dominated by the iPod in terms of marketing and brand recognition.

Re:No choice ?

[Mr Smidge]

Hear hear...

The parent makes a good point that I feel exactly the same about. How much can it cost to implement an Ogg Vorbis decoder anyway?

Let's see:
Open source integer-only decoding algorithm, check.
Zero royalties, check.

The demand isn't going to change hugely until some hardware players are out there.. so what's stopping the hardware players get out there with Vorbis support? (don't say lack of demand, I know that already)

Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[Polaris]

is to be avoided. Thank God Apple released iTunes for Windows, so I don't have to use MMJB any more; dumb, painfully unintuitive, annoying and just plain incompetent (told me my iPod was "full" after loading about a hundred songs!)

Re:Anything that relies on MusicMatch Jukebox

[nuxx]

I purchased a 30GB iPod back in May.

And almost returned it.

MusicMatch is such garbage that I had a very, very hard time getting it to see my iPod. Once I did, I had a hard time getting any of my personal music in it. I too had the problem with my iPod being 'full' with only a few songs in it...

Then I found EphPod. This piece of software kept me using my iPod under Windows for a few months. After that I got a used PowerMac G4 Cube, switched to iTunes, and never looked back.

With iTunes for Windows I think that Apple finally has a complete system in place for users to rip and sync music properly. Not the MusicMatch hack...

This is a good thing, in my opinion.

The importance of iPod

[DeepDarkSky]

it isn't so much that it's a nice sleek design that makes everyone - not just geeks - lust after it. Partly, it's the higher, mass-perceived "premium" price tag that makes people think it's better. The iPod is a well-design little gadget, but hardly the best, nor the most cost effective. No, the iPod is successful because it is part of a complete marketed solution.

You want to listen to MP3s you ripped from CDs? no problem. You want to listen to MP3s you downloaded from IRC/Usenet/? Sure. If you are a regular consumer who is not tech savvy, who don't know where to get MP3s, you can now purchase from the iTunes store, and get legally, and worry-free, the music files that you'd like. Hate to break this to you - not everyone LIKES to download MP3s illegally - especially those who can afford to pay for it. Those who cannot afford to, or just plain don't want to, well, they have to turn to illegal means.

So what Apple has done is say, look, we have a complete solution for you. You can easily go anywhere with this iPod thing, it's pretty, it's "premium", and we will make it easy for you to get MP3s without worry about legal issues, without having to know how to rip CDs, without having to know how to download MP3s illegally using P2P programs, which may contain malware and cause you to share files that you are not aware of which can then get you sued by RIAA.

The RIAA's suits' merit notwithstanding, people just don't want to even take a chance that they'd be put into that position (which is exactly RIAA's scare tactic).

And that, is the greatness of iPod. It's not the device itself, it's the whole thing.

Another player crippled...

[PurplePhase]

...because it's missing a second interface: 1394

I'd also like to know the playback time with the backlight on continuously - that should have been given so we know the other end of that spectrum. Unless, of course, everyone knows what music they want to listen to over a 16 hour period when they program the playlist back at home while the battery is charging...

8-PP

Deactivating a PC is permanent?

[weave]

What is this bit in the fine print?

Deactivating a PC is permanent and cannot be reversed, ever. Should you decide you no longer wish to play Musicmatch Downloads on a PC because (1) You already have three PCs activated and you wish to activate an alternate PC, or (2) You no longer use a particular PC, see ?Deactivate a Musicmatch Downloads account? from within Musicmatch Jukebox Help to learn more. Remember, deactivating the account will permanently prevent that PC from playing or downloading Musicmatch tracks.

I know of quite a few people who deauthorized a Mac before doing a clean install of Panther this past weekend to be safe, then reactivating it when done.

So what do they mean by "permanent?" If someone wants to wipe and reinstall their OS, what happens?

Does it work EASILY with Linux?

[harlows_monkeys]

Here's what I want from an MP3 player:

I plug it into a USB or Firewire port, and it shows up as a disk, with a filesystem that Linux can read and write.

I can copy music on to and off of the device by simply copying MP3 files (it is OK if other formats, such as those with DRM, are supported, as long as I can manage regular MP3 files with simple copying.

It uses the organization on the filesystem to determine the organization shown to the user. That is, if I want to play an album, I can simply navigate to the directory and tell it to play, and it plays all the songs in that directory (I'm willing to make sure my songs are named so that alphabetically they are in the right order).

If I can point it at playlists in a standard format, that is fine, if it is in addition supporting simple playing of all songs in a directory in order.

On my computer, I don't use any jukebox application. I simply have my MP3s organized in directories. I leave an XMMS directory browser open in my music directory, so with a double click or two, can add a whole album to my playlist. Since I've got everything organized for that, I don't need fancy jukebox or sync software...I just want to plug in, and use the usual Linux tools to make the directory on the player match my Linux music directory, and be done.

I can't tell if the Dell does this or not.

The Archos players work perfectly for this, but I'm running out of space on my 15 gig, and so am hoping Archos, or someone, will come out with a 30 gig or more that works this way, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

iPod's "greatness"

[jargoone]

Ok, yes, it's small, and it looks pretty good. But seriously, is it really worth the premium for everyone?

I have an Archos Studio 10. I admit, it's ugly as sin, and it's big and heavy. But I can't count one time I have used it while carrying it. It's always on my desk, in my car, or on a plane. The reduced size of the iPod would have been nice, but I can't say it's every been an issue. Also, while the default firmware sucks, there is an open source replacement that absolutely rocks. It's probably still not as easily usable as an iPod, but it gets the job done.

I can appreciate the iPod, but I got my Archos for $120 after rebate, and there's absolutely no way I would have paid nearly 3 times that for something that's "sexy".

Oh yeah... and by the way... the Archos Studio contains NiMH AA's. When they go dead, replace them for about $8. Can you do that with an iPod?

Microphone

[Anonymous Coward]

It's got an integrated microphone. Ok, but what I really need is a line-in. I want to be able to get a good-quality voice recording of about 30 hours of lectures, and an integrated mike just ain't gonna swing it when I'm sitting in the back.

It's not like it's a huge legal liability for the manufacturer, it's an analog line. It'd make it easier to convert your old vinyl but that's about it.

I've seen a one or two that have a line-in, but a review of one complained of reliability problems...anybody have suggestions?

Oh yeah, these are wilderness classes, no AC power even remotely available.

same OS as iPod

[mydigitalself]

looking at the screenshots, dell appears to have licensed the same OS that apple has for the Dell DJ. apple must be a bit annoyed about that one!

Re:same OS as iPod

[gutter]

It was a company named Pixo, which has now been purchased by Sun:

http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2003-07/sunf lash.20030717.1.html

At what point...

[badasscat]

At what point do we stop calling these things "iPod wannabes" and start simple calling them MP3 players? (Or, if you want to get technical, hard drive-based MP3 players.) I mean it's been a while since hard drive based players have become popular and the iPod is far from the only one. Why do we not call IBM-compatible PC's "IBM PC wannabes"? Or portable CD players "discman wannabes"?

I just think everybody's way past the point of trying to copy Apple. Apart from being square-ish, there's very little that I can see in almost any of the current crop of drive-based players that resembles an iPod. People always complain about things like "it's not as small as iPod!", "it doesn't have the buttons on the front like iPod!", "it's not white like iPod!" Well, maybe that's because it's not an iPod and it's not trying to be an iPod! It's an MP3 player, and it's different than iPod.

Myself, the important things in one of these are price vs. size, stability, openness, and ease of use. I don't care how much like the iPod it is; in fact, the iPod has significant problems (DRM, stability issues, high price, past quality control problems) that preclude me from buying one. If it syncs fast and easily, if it doesn't skip or otherwise flake out while playing, if it plays a variety of formats without DRM and if it's cheap for the amount of space it has, then it seems like a good deal to me. I don't know if this thing fits that criteria (its use of MusicMatch for syncing seems to rule out a good interface, so that's disappointing), but I'm not measuring anything vs. the iPod. People need to use their own criteria; if you want an iPod, just buy a damn iPod.

The Problem with Many Players

[Robert Hayden]

One thing I really hate about the iPod is that it requires you to make a playlist for everything. I have a large MP3 collection all sorted into directories by Genre/Artist/AlbumName/Tracks. I just want to move up and down the directories and select a starting point to play at and just go.

Two years ago I purchased an Archos Jukebox (20GB) that does it. It has problems with lousy battery life and USB1.1 but it at least works given my directory-based layout.

Who makes a current-generation player that does this?

Re:The Problem with Many Players

[GreenHell]

Playlist for everything? You've got to be kidding me.
Just to prove a point, let's dig out my iPod and take a look, shall we?

Starting from the root menu screen:
Browse -> Genres -> Genre Name -> Artist Name -> Album Name

Well wadda ya know, there's all the tracks for that album, and in the proper order too.

As long as you've bothered to provide your MP3s with ID3 tags then you're fine.
iTunes, XPlay, and all the other iPod software out there just read the tags and creates the iTunes DB entries using that info.

Not much compared toiRiver's entry

[Xeth]

The Player I've been looking at is definately the iRiver IHP-120. It's got an extremely slick chrome and black case, a wired remote, and it plays OGG files. The only thing is that it has a bit of a hefty price tag.

Opinion based on previous experience.

[CFBMoo1]

Given my recent encounters with Dell's support people. I'm not really interested in their products just because I want good support to go with them. After a three hour session where I was forwarded to a fax machine, hung up on, warned that their support service center was under attack by the latest virus and put on hold again indefinatly, and finally tossed on hold in India several times about a month ago.

I'd recomend against buying products from them. Doesn't matter how good the product is, if the support is lousy like Dell's, your going to suffer. I'm still regretting paying $2800 for a laptop that had full at home service coverage. Especially if it takes an act of God to make their support people move.

Price? I don't think so...

[ZipR]

Ipod 20 gig $399 Ipod 40 gig $499 Archos Recorder 20 gig = $309 Recorder 30 = $369 Recorder 40 = $389 Recorder 60 = $439 Recorder 80 = $609 Of course it's not as sexy and only plays mp3s, but I think $100 dollar differences in price are substantial. (Prices from Apple.com and newmp3technology.com)

Absolutely iTunes

[JayDiggity]

So I just bought a Creative Nomad Zen Xtra (what a long time!) from the store a couple of days ago, and you know something? I returned it. I'm a PC user and a fairly faithful one at that, but I love iTunes. For me, it's entirely in the rating system. I can create a playlist that has only songs that I rate highly, and it's amazing.
Too bad I can't sync those playlists to my Nomad. I have to use their crappy software, which I hated. Apple releasing iTunes for Windows is "first hit's free" mentality - you get a taste of how good to iPod software is, and suddenly you have to have an iPod. It's awful. And I'm buying one.
Unless Dell's bundled software is as good as iTunes (and it's MusicMatch, which means it can't be anywhere near as good), then I won't even think twice about it.

Re:Absolutely iTunes

[cens0r]

You should have tried using notmad explorer from redchair software. It's one of the best pieces of software I've ever used, and lets you use your nomad like god intended.

Apple releases iPod

[nitehorse]

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

Is there still a pause between tracks?

[Deslock]

Looks cool, but I'd still get iPod instead. However, all MP3 players I know of have a serious flaw:

There is a pause between tracks during playback (while the next song is loaded into memory). When I'm listening to the new Rush live album on CD, I can close my eyes and imagine being at the show. When I listen to MP3s, there is an annoyingly abrupt pause every ~6 minutes. Crossfading doesn't solve the problem.

Does this new player finally get rid of the pause?

Check out the Rio Karma.

[Gondola]

The Rio Karma is on my Christmas list this year.

Check it out here.

It's tiny; 2.7" by 3" by 1". It's got USB 2.0 and *ethernet*. The unfortunate thing is, the ethernet connectivity requires proprietary software, it's not just an SMB server on ethernet, and it's not a mass storage device with USB. However, there is a Java version of the software, and it runs on just about any platform that can run Java.

Battery life is fifteen hours, about double the iPod's.

It comes with a DOCK so you don't have to plug in power, usb, whatever, every time you go home. It's got a rechargable battery, and you just put it in the dock to charge and connect to your LAN/PC. The dock has RCA out, ethernet, and USB.

MSRP is $399, but you should be able to get better deals online, and there's a $20 rebate right now.

What DRM issue?

[SuperKendall]

I was not aware MP3's had "DRM" issues. The iPod can play any number of unprotected MP3's. Even unprotected AAC's in fact, which is another open format, similar to WMA only not as annoying.

Quality control problems?

Stability issues?

I have a old (now really old) 5MB iPod. I would wish that everything else on the planet had the same stability and quality control issues the iPod does!

I think you ended up rationalizing yourself out of the best MP3 player on the planet, for no benefit whatsoever!

30 Gigs for $250

[erik umenhofer]

The Nomad Zen NX can be had for 250 bucks and holds 30 GIGs. This is suck a better deal for the geeks out there.

Anyone else notice this little copyright snafu ?

[Razor Blades are Not]

So on the main philips Portable Audio page, I see a little photo of a girl reclining on a bed with a Philips MP3 player in her hand...

It's the exact same shot from the DELL animation, but with the dell DJ overlayed with the philips player. You can tell its Philips who did the "appropriating" here, because the girls fingers are blurred out in their shot, and not in the Dell one.

For Shame Philips !

Vorbis hardware players that exist *right* *now*

[Z-MaxX]

From the current and rapidly expanding Vorbis Hardware list: Consumer products that support Vorbis natively:

• Neuros Digital Audio Computer
• Rio Karma 20 (Picture)
• PhatNoise's PhatBox, Kenwood's Music Keg (Powered by PhatNoise) These are in-car players that are installed into the trunk of your car and hooked up to your car stereo. Both players run ARM-Linux and support playback of FLAC files. Beta firmware to support Ogg Vorbis is available at http://phatbox.sixpak.org/phatbox/ogg.phtml.
• KISS Technology's DP-450 and DP-500 DVD Players
• MPST Digital Jukebox
• Freemax FW-960
• iRiver iHP-120, iHP-100, iGP-100, possibly others
• Umax/Yamada have a few standalone DVD players that support Vorbis.
• Neuston provides a standalone DVD player (model DVX-1201) that supports Vorbis.
• Samsung The MCD-CM600 is now available in Korea. It is a CD portable that can play Vorbis, MP3, and WMA. Page with photo of MCD-CM600. Closeup of MCD-CM600.

Use Smartlists

[meehawl]

I have a large MP3 collection all sorted into directories by Genre/Artist/AlbumName/Tracks. I just want to move up and down the directories and select a starting point to play at and just go.

No doubt many Pod People have posted responses, lauding the iPod's ID3 tag approach to playback. It is a nice touch. Unfortunately, like many Apple design constraints, it's a Henry Ford "any colour as long as it's black" all-or-nothing approach that makes you buy into their way of doing things or not at all.

But you can get the same functionality with the Archos (or any other directory-based player) and using J River's Media Center. MC9 offers Smartlists, which allow you to create on-the-fly playlists that aggregate songs accordig to logical parameters (based on ID3 tags or playlist membership). Just create a bunch of playlists and dump them in a playlist directory. Then pick and mix.

iTunes does a kind of Smartlisting as well but the iTunes implementation of Smartlists is rather limited.

MJ has had the "make a playlist out of query parameters" feature for years, but takes it further: you can define custom fields in the database and search on them (though to be fair, iTunes already includes the things I used those custom fields for.) More importantly, its notion of (non-dynamic) playlists is much more flexible -- you can use a song's presence on a static playlist as a query parameter for a smartlist. I've come to think of playlists as a way of attaching attributes to songs. It's a much more flexible, nuanced way to represent things like genre, where multiple values can easily apply to a song.

You can then dump those generated playlists to the audio player and select a mood- or place-based playlist according to your whim.

And as regardes battery life, the first thing you should do is load Rockbox, if you have not already done so.

The next thing (a bit more tricky) is to replace the old, degraded, low-capacity NiMH AA batteries with some modern 2300 mAh ones. You will double or triple your battery life immediately for a cost of around $5. This site shows you how to modify an Archos safely.

A third option is to expand the Archos from 2MB to 8MB -- this lets the RAM cache more data and reduce the energy required to spin the hard drive.