Slashdot Mirror
Billy the Kid Faces The Law... Again
Jason Raddin writes "MSNBC.com has an interesting story about a new showdown in the Old West. It seems as if Billy the Kid can still cause problems for the law-men of New Mexico, even as he rests in his grave. Several small New Mexico towns claim to possess the "true" grave of Billy the Kid (a.k.a. William H. Bonney, Henry McCarty, Kid Antrim). Two sheriffs in Capitan, New Mexico have proposed that this mystery be solved using modern DNA testing. The proposal was made in June to exhume the remains of Bonney's mother and the two reported graves of Bonney. This has spurred a hot legal debate raising an interesting question: which is more important, tourist dollars or the truth?"
...the rights of the dead buried people that they're digging up?
Who owns those plots of land? Do dead bodies automatically become the property of the state?
I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
Really. I mean is there even an argument here?
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
Right, so this is a very suspense-inducing story. I can tell. I just have to wonder, though, as this sort of thing doesn't really inspire suspense in me (plugging in a new cable does, though), why is this story on Slashdot? I mean, really. I'd rather hear about someone (or even several towns) digging up his (or anyone's for that matter) remains and rigging them with wireless technology that allows people to control their movements. Now that would be cool...
but this? bah...
Just grab a time-traveling phone booth and find out the easy way:
Are you cheatin' us, Kid?
I thought he was still alive. I mean Young Guns just came out a few years ago.
Are they sure he is dead????
Now I am confused!
But the mayors of Fort Sumner and Silver City say they won't let the bodies buried in their towns be disturbed, and that sets the stage for a legal showdown in December when New Mexico District Court Judge Jim Foy is to consider the matter.
Mayor Lopez: Draw.
Sheriff Graves: No!
(Lopez pauses)
Graves: I thought we could settle this like men!
Lopez: You thought wrong, dude.
*BLAM*
(Back to the Future ref for those of you in the sad sad dark.)
The coolest voice ever.
What if they do the DNA tests and it turns out that Billy the Kid isn't in either of those graves?
This has spurred a hot legal debate raising an interesting question: which is more important, tourist dollars or the truth?
Personally I think the even more important thing is to have some respect for these people's graves. It isn't worth it to go mucking around in their final resting places, unless there's alot more to it than just some town rivalry.
I would think that more important question to be raised here is how moral/ethical it is to dig out graves for tourists' money.
Whatever happened to the whole "rest in peace" notion? Let me get this in writing right now: if someone comes diggin' me up in a century or so, I am *so* gonna haunt that guy!
"...which is more important, tourist dollars or the truth?"
How about respecting the dead? Is 'loss of tourism' really the best answer we can come up with to not open up two people's graves (at least one of whom is assuredly not Billy the Kid)?
Kevin Fox
Dude, you said they were going to do a DNA test? Doesnt a DNA test require, oh... something to compare it against?
Maybe they'll just compare which DNA strand's codons are closest to being an anagram of "Billy the Kid"
(btw, what kind of stupid question is that? truth or money?!? That's like asking, "open source or money?" If you need moral guidance here, just ask the OTHER "Billy the Kid")
~Chris Hammond
a biotech issue. It is a moral issue. I wouldn't want people digging up my great-grandmother, and I don't think Billy would like it either.
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
Since when do living people have rights?
What about the off chance that these two guys are brothers and they BOTH match up? :D
Technoli
Made for TV Movie on this conflict on Friday on CBS.
Err how about respect for the dead?
They're both dead, right? What difference does it make? When I'm dead people can dig me up every other day -- I wouldn't care either way.
tourist dollars... right? did i get it?
You'd think that this could be done without exhuming full remains - using ground penetrating radar (the kind employed to find buried pipes) generate a 3D map and select a good drilling site. Drill/dig down a small column, select a piece, and fill; minor damage done.
This would probably cost more and admittedly does leave you with the problem of making sure you "strike it rich" on the drilling and may have to make multiple entry attempts, but wouldn't that bring even more media attention and tourist interest whilst satisfying the scientific and historic minds?
Any spoon would be too big.
There are alegedly three resting places of Billy, all of them being in different cities, and being tourist attractions. Obviously, at least two of them are going to be disproved (provided all of them arent).
This means that, as far as tourist sites, they are going to lose out; they would rather be a possible resting place of The Kid than the resting place of some guy who was pretending to be The Kid (not very exciting, is it?).
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
I deride your truth-handling ability!
And just what happens when they discover that none of those people are Billy the Kid?
Bye bye tourist dollars.
Billy the Kid is buried under my stairs, everyone knows this. Though, he prefers to be called William the Childlike. I'm not sure what that's about.
Billy the Kid - news for nerds? Hardly.
Proving someone's identity who has been dead a long time using scientific methods is kinda nerdy - don't you think?
Billy the Kid - stuff that matters? No.
That's relative. It just doesn't matter to you.
ymmv
Epitaph from the grave of William Shakespeare: Good friend for Iesus sake forbeare to digg the dvst encloased heare. Blese be ye man yt spares thes stones and cvrst be he yt moves my bones.
...the people making money off the fake grave find the grave of the mother of the dude they swapped the tombstone of, and swap her tombstone with one which says "mother of Billy the Kid".
That's relative. It just doesn't matter to you.
Sure, cuz stuff like this only matters to kitten-molesting, elderly-punching, child-molesting, possum-cum-gargling pieces of faggot boy-cum-guzzling piles of shit like yourself, yes?
Stupid moderators. . .
He may have been a real person once, but today, Billy the Kid is a mythological figure no different than Zeus or Odin. Without delving too deeply into Campbell, I'd say that going to all this effort to prove which is THE Mister The Kid really accomplishes nothing, when allowing his stories to thrive uninterrupted provides a psychological service.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Can I get my DNA stored in a secure, verifiable location so they won't have to dig my dead body up 100 years from now to test my DNA???
Oh yeah, I will be famous by then!!! Though they might still dig me up to pry my rocking Voodoo3 3500 out of my dead cold hands!!!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
It could decide whether Pat Garrett was a hero or a "liar who covered up a murder to save his reputation."
"But we's got that there grave of billy the kyid, not yous guys!" "I gots an idear, how bouts we do one of them fancy Dyee En Hey tests?" "Yeah, but don'ts we got to dig up them there coyorpses" "Hell, i've got me a spade shovel."
~Chris Hammond
Henry McCarty (aka Billy the Kid) was given the name by the priest who fathered him... apparently this priest (i forget his name) would share him around the other priests and this is where he developed his distrust for people in authority positions.
After an altercation in the convent where Henry (Billy) exposed himself to one of the nuns he stole his fathers revolver and shot him in the knee caps during mass.
The classic American Hero story really.
I've got a lot of family in New Mexico and Arizona, and I've actually been to a couple towns which claim to have his body, and you know what?
Nobody really cares, outside of those towns.
The problem is, some of these town, having basically nothing aside from big-ass desert, have so little in the way of anything whatsoever, that some of these little towns a hundred miles from anything have to go out of their ways to rationalize their existance.
And you know what's really shocking? It's not even a tourist thing. There's not that much cash in it. Nobody makes holy pilgrimages to Billy the Kid's tomb. It's a pride thing. It's completely about these towns wanting some claim to history, however miniscule.
It's rather sad really. Not unlike the town of Roswell, where you can't go downtown without seeing a dozen shops selling schlocky plastic alien trinkets.
"Isn't that the sweetest little well-balanced undergraduate-level philosophy of life."
Ok, not a spoiler, but how does this relate to Kill Bill? And why is her name censored. And do we see Bill's face in Vol 1? I think we do (hint, rings and swords).
Look closely at that URL, there's a goatse re-direct CSS in there.
&target=web-search/redirect.html&url=http://goats
Americans are quickly running out of things to fuck with... about time they start fucking up their counrty a little... I mean come on, America was founded by a group of nigger hugging fags that god kicked out of Europe.
Damn I hate American...
Isn't it past your bedtime?
Kill yourself.
Imaging a beowulf cluster of all of the supposed Billy the Kid corpses...
He's buried in Springfield. Everyone turned in their guns and he rose from the grave along with Kaiser Wilhelm and Butch Cassidy. Then Homer went back in time to tell everyone to shoot his grave.
In any case, they don't need DNA testing. They just need to get rid of their guns and see who gets shot.
This has spurred a hot legal debate raising an interesting question: which is more important, tourist dollars or the truth?
This is taking place in America, right? OF COURSE it's the money!
"which is more important, tourist dollars or the truth?"
There's money involved. Go for the truth. To do less while continuing to rake in tourist dollars is fraud and false advertising.
brilliant observetion INSIGHTFUL +5
Tacky, yet funny, yet repulsive, yet somewhat on-topic.
I think my brain threw up all over itself.
This space for rent.
Billy's mother is buried in Silver City, NM so getting her remains should be easy, except for the minor detail that the cemetary where she is buried has undergone some serious rearangement in the past century thus there is no assurance that his mom is actually buried under the stone that says "Billy's mom lies here." In fact, it is highly unlikely that there are remains under her stone and even if there are, the remains are almost certainly not his mom.
All that the digging around is going to prove is that technology will answer the question presented (are these remains related) rather than the question intended (Which of these guys is Billy).
"The conduct of neither [party], if strictly examined, will be irreproachable." -Elizabeth Bennet
Grave digging for tourist dollars is unethical. period. What ever happened to R.I.P?
Don't these cops have anything better to do than chase 100+ year old dead criminals?
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
So, what are they going to do when they determine (at least) one of the graves is improperly marked? Are they going to track down who it is and correct the gravestone?
Granted, that's quite a challenge, and in all honesty probably isn't feasible, but still.
Here's a body which has spent the last 100 years buried in someone else's grave. Shouldn't that issue be corrected?
Shouldn't someone at least care?
You can talk about desecrating graves all you like, but one of those graves was desecrated a long time ago, and left that way. Heck, left that way and exploited.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything.
I live in NM.
It really sucksssss, suckssss like a
sssssnake, a ssssnake in a rabbit hole.
PS, roystgnr sucks.
In a modern utopic society where people are not selfish and always consider one another's best interests before acting, the truth would of course be more important. In a capitalist American society, however, it all boils down to the almighty buck.
Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
this is good reason for a cremation. those bastards will never get my DNA now!
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Oh boy. That's a good one.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
there no need for diggin up bodies, dna tests and the like.
there is a simple way to solve this exact problem
Homer Jay Simpson: Dig him up! Dig up that corpse! If you really love Jebediah Springfield, you'll haul his bones out of the ground to prove my daughter wrong! Dig up his grave! Pull out his tongue!
Mayor 'Diamond' Joe Quimby: Can't we have one meeting that doesn't end with us digging up a corpse?
Besides, what happens when neither corpse is the Kid? I mean, anyone who has seen the Simpsons Halloween special knows he's buried in Springfield, just waiting for all of us to throw away our guns! :-)
Along these lines, what I would like to see, now that Sally Hemmings' descendents have been proven to have the Jefferson Y chromosome, is to have them tested against both Randolph and Thomas Jefferson's DNA.
There are a few references out there of Billy moonlighting at some other professions as well.
This is Slashdot! I thought everyone knew this. Do some reasearch, people!
No, but it is almost my dinner time. I hope my mommy makes something good. Yum.
To precis the story:
- popular legend has it that Billy the Kid was buried in place A
- some guy said "I'm Billy the Kid" before he died, and he's buried in place B
- another guy said "I'm Billy the Kid" before he died, and he's buried in place C
Surely places A, B and C are all benefitting from tourist dollars out of the pockets of people wanting to see the "real" Billy the Kid's hole in the ground.
Why on earth would the officials in place A want to (a) disturb the remains of 4 people (3 Kids and mum), (b) potentially wreck the tourism incomes of places B & C, and (c) potentially wreck the tourism income of their own town? If (c) happens, then I figure they won't be re-elected and will probably need to find a new place to live.
Surely the commonsense thing for guys in towns A, B & C is to leave things exactly as they are, and try to fuel the mystery of BtK's final resting place as part of his mystique.
"They think they've got him somewhere else, but old Mabel up the road remembers his grandson who lived just next door and he was a helluva shot with a gun, just like ol' Billy. Killed 150 buffalo in an afternoon with his bare hands, he did, and ate 'em all for dinner that night; never seen a buffalo in these parts since. You can see the family resemblance in this here photo, and you can get your own copy for only $5"
IHT Article
Why? Because it may reveal that one Sheriff Garrett was really a murderer, covering his crime with wild claims. This would serve justice to his victim. The effort will be made to verify the claims of Brushy Bill Roberts of Texas who died at the age of 90 claiming to be the muderous outlaw. If this man is Billy the Kid, is it so distasteful to disturb his grave, seeing as how he sent so many people to their graves? To exhume the man who claimed to be Billy The Kid would dispoil the grave of an killer or a fraud claiming to be an killer. Besides, if Roberts is the Kid, I'm sure he'd gladly oblige anyone who clould prove his claim. If not, then to disturb his rest would merely be an exercise in situational irony.
But, my goodness, that poor lady!
But everyone knows Billy the kid is buired near springfield! He was lisa boyfirend 'who happens to be dead', and the german guy going "yippie yippie".
Hmm...funny you should ask. I just did.
Consider the great emphasis the Mormon Church puts on having a complete geneology of humanity, presumably to present on Judgment Day just in case St. Peter's own accounting department has been infiltrated by ex-Enronians. Then consider common estimates that 1 in 5 children born in wedlock is not actually of the husband. We must, for religious reasons good enough to keep several senators in DC representing the Angel Moroni, find out the truth. Let's dig up everyone from whom genetic samples are still attainable, and run the tests.
Consider particularly that it is rich men whose wives are most idle, most bored, most apt to have fun with the gardener. Do they intend for their tax-free benificience to pass down to bastards not their own? Some, perhaps, in kindness do, but isn't it safe to assume most do not, and have not, and so revoke the inheritances of those bastards?
Only thorough examination of the dead can resolve these looming spiritual and financial questions of righteousness and justice. Leave no headstone unturned!
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
There are even reports that Billy the Kid died in Texas and was buried in Hico, Texas. Ask anyone from Hico about it and you're likely to get a long explanation about Pat Garrett allowed Billy the Kid to get out of state on the quiet as long as he didn't reveal his true identity. So, he went to Hico. Hico is on Highway 6 about 60 miles or so west of Waco.
I'm sure there'll be problems tying DNA in with medical records, but you'd think its a solveable problem if the records won't come to light long after you're gone
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Make that, rabid linux zealots without a sense of humor. Sheesh.
What I find most intriguing about The Kid, is the fact that he may not have been killed at all that night at Fort Sumner. I've read Sheriff Pat Garrett's book "The Authentic Life of Billy The Kid" and remember the description of The Kid's fateful night was rather cloudy - it was dark during the shootout. It's been a while since I've read it though.
If it turns out that Billy's body isn't in either of those graves, perhaps they should exhume Brushy Bill Roberts' grave. For those who don't know the Brushy Bill Roberts story, Brushy was a man from Hico, Texas, who after being confronted by an attorney confessed to being The Kid - all his charecteristics we actually said to have matched the Kid's, such as having unusally small hands and big wrists. Also, all the wounds that the Kid was known to have were accounted for on Brushy.
I find the story rather interesting - he was supposed to go before the Governor of New Mexico and get his promised pardon, however just before that he died from a heart attack at the age of 90 in 1950. It's not that far out, as The Kid was in his early twenties during the time of the Lincoln County War. It could have been Brushy.
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
So, you're saying that if your dog gets run over, you're going to drag the bitch to the ditch and leave her? After all, the dog's dead...
Proving someone's identity who has been dead a long time using scientific methods is kinda nerdy - don't you think?
No, its fucking gay and a waste of time and money.
That's relative. It just doesn't matter to you.
You dont matter to anyone.
Everybody knows Billy the Kid was burried in Springfield and could have become a frustrated novelist.
I read that headline and thought that we had started using a new missive for Bill Gates and his legal woes (though I guess "woes" isn't actually a synonym for "successful yet unjust proceedings/payoffs").
"Other people in other states have done this with Jesse James. They want to prove their history. And if history has to change, so be it."
History will remain exactly the same as it was. Only our accounting of it will change.
They did this with Jesse James in the Mt. Olivet Cemetery in Kearney, Nebraska and that didn't change a thing, people went on believing what they wanted to believe.
So in the end the towns will still have their claims
But I guess the added publicity will still have the affect of getting the towns in the paper and perk peoples interest. Which in the end is all that matters in this case anyway.
Respect for the dead? Come on. I never had any respect for them when they were living, and it's not like dying is particularly unique or anything. It's just something everyone does once in their life, for crying out loud.
who wants to see if it's possible to have a legal adult that looks and feels like a child?
:Shrudder: :vomit:
Harvesting DNA.
And, after they figure out who (if anybody) has the remains of Billy the Kid, I think they should gather together a bunch of relics from cathedrals, do some DNA comparison between them, and figure out once and for all if John the Baptist really did have four skulls, six hands, and three tongues.
Billy the Kid will be shown to have been cloned from an ancestor of Dolly the Sheep.
(Some Greek type called Ovid, or something, probably)
Our country is littered with "historical" markers that bear only the faintest resemblances to the events they supposedly commemorate. These Billy the Kid graves are just a tiny spur of that iceberg. History is in the thrall of local chambers of commerce. Think they want to tell a story that isn't favorable to their area?
The number of museums to Custer that are out there is an okay example of when it's just innocent squabbling, not a total whitewash. There are collections of Custer memorabilia scattered from Michigan to North Dakota (and of course Montana), and they're all bitterly opposed to giving up a scrap from his leather belt. It's a matter of tourism and civic pride. Want to see the definitive Custer exhibit? Get ready to spend a summer.
That's when it isn't the obviously censored version. James Loewen wrote a decent, fun little book, "Lies Across History," about those. Monuments to Confederate dead in Montana -- not a state, not even a territory, during the Civil War. References to "battles" all over the place, when they weren't battles at all: the Mormons ambush and slaughter a huge wagon train of settlers, but the monument calls it a battle with the federal government. And so on.
So your answer is: Tourist Dollars.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
from the way I see it, this is all about finding out the truth... tourist $ just happens to follow in it's path, but I still think the main point is to find out which side is right...
I wouldn't worry too much about *eraldo's good name. When I think of journalistic integrity, he's not the first guy to spring to mind. I know I'm not the only guy who was rooting for the skinhead that plowed him with a chair.
But since you're so worried about it - I hereby promise to submit all future postings with *eraldo's name in it to the New York Times for proofreading before I hit {Submit}, so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of all *eraldo fans who for some reason also read Slashdot.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Wait for a good rain! http://www.rosenet.org/library/historyimages/cemet eries2.jpg
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
Who really cares WHERE billy the kid is buried ( can't be anymore dead and Emilo Estevez's career who portrayed him). What if half a dozen towns lay claim to having him buried there.
Some times it more fun to think about the possibilities than to actully know the truth.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Refer to my other post on Brushy Bill Roberts - I bet it's the connection you're looking for.
For those of you who have seen the movie "Young Guns II", Brushy Bill Roberts is not just some character the writers came up with, he's for real. Whether he really was William H. Bonney, nobody knows.
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
Good grief, I can't believe nobody else made this lame comment until now.
I've found that my posts don't format quite right w/o a sig.
Some truths just aren't worth knowing.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
but you won't accept Cogito Ergo Sum as an answer, will you?
He's still alive: last time anyone saw him, he was coaching the mighty ducks!
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Redundant!? Did anyone notice this is a response to the second post? Mod down if you like, but redundant?
Everyone knows that he's buried in Springfield!
It was on the Simpson's. It _must_ be true!
A new feature is just a bug waiting to happen. And vice versa.
Okay, if Chistmas == Xmas, then X == Chist, so Xtian=Chisttian.
What the hell is a Chisttian, then?
Hell, even if you'd gotten the first part right (Christmas == Xmas) you've still got Xtian == Christtian. What's that? Or did you repeatedly use "Xtian" because you thought it was a neat way to say "Christian" (perhaps somewhat derisively) without ever thinking it through even once?
Your Trolling skillz are pigslop. I've read better at Kuro5hin, and that's saying something.
Nobody leave the room ask shall - somebody I leave nobody in the room body shall, take the tablets Tigerbody. Alself me to my duce introlow left body in the roomself.
I bought this house and you know I'm boss
Ain't no h'aint gonna run me off
Sounds weird but not morally wrong, until the question comes up- what if the next year, you found out that you were adopted by the now-deceased person in plot 72... fifty years ago... and you'd LIKE to have that body tested to check for a genetic deformity that you're worried about that might still be discernable? Maybe even if you don't have the defect, you don't want your grandkids to have to face it without their parents having time to prepare.
So you go to the town where they lived and died- but their body has been sold, for cash, to an unknown bidder. Now someone has the remains of your relative, and if they'd kept track of where that relative had gone, you might have been able to check.
In the US, there are some cemetaries which move you to a crypt after a certain time, but most Americans still are given the expectation that once they pay for a plot in a cemetary, they are to remain there. This is why we don't pay for the graves of ALL our ancestors. Can you imagine the bill? Even if all the descendents paid a share... the cost still goes up with every generation.
So we can't just sell bodies off, and we can't just throw them away, and we can't just burn them without someone giving us permission. It's not a mess that i see a solution to yet. BUt in this matter, i think that the towns should find out which one really is him, and the mother should therefore be exhumed, and then great care put into reburying her pretty much as she was found. She had the expectation in life that she would be buried, if that was the local custom, so it's probably the most appropriate move to let her remain that way once she's been matched with her descendants.
That part isn't about the right to stay buried, but about the fact that legal precedent allows for exhumation with a court order. Since this is a dispute between townships that can be settled by a test, tests should be made, paid for by the ones insisting upon them (whether the matter gets settled in their favour or not.)
I could be wrong about all of this, of course... these are just my thoughts immediately on reading all of this.
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
Huh? "Dollar or the truth?"
You ask that question in a country where you can get President because "The counting of the votes that are of questionable legality does, in my view, threaten irreparable harm to the petitioner (Bush), and to the country by casting a cloud upon what he claims to be the legitimacy of this election."
Maybe you should pay atteniton to what is going on on important levels.