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They Blocked My SMTP, Now What?

mindsuck asks: "As of this Wednesday, my ISP blocked my port 25, leaving my mailserver useless to the outside world as a consequence of spammers and their nasty worms. So I decided to ask the nice people of Slashdot. What can I do now to restore my smtp service, besides changing ISPs, is there a obscure way to run a mailserver off a non-standard port? What about services similar to those provided by dyndns.org for this kind of situations? Pros and Cons of using this services? Should I move my MX to a more 'stable' server than my homegrown one?" This topic was last touched upon in this article, from 2002. It's been over a year since SMTP blocks have become commonplace. Have you noticed a slowdown in your SPAM? Are ISP SMTP blocks really helping the problem? Updated: It looks like Charter is also blocking SMTP. Might there be a way to work with your ISP to get them to unblock port 25 for you, if you can sufficiently satisfy them that you are not a spammer?

Krondor wrote in with a similar query: "Charter Communications (in my area) has blocked outbound SMTP connections. I need to be able to send Email to other SMTP servers, besides theirs, for a number of legitamate reasons. My question is this; How can I either still send SMTP to the places I need to, or how can I convince Charter to unblock outbound SMTP (I can understand blocking inbound SMTP without ACK bit set)? They do provide a relay, but won't my messages get labelled as SPAM if I use that? I am also concerned because, this relay is not encrypted with SSL and I don't necessarily trust Charter with that."

132 comments

  1. nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    them spammers have bots spider all available IP addresses probing for open relays, so there will never be a world free of open relays. as long as there's one out there, it'll get found.

    only when the world realizes that most spamming can be taken care of through laws meant to prevent deceptive or false marketing (which most spammers who resort to open relays partake in) will things really improve.

  2. Use your ISP for SMTP or change ISP by Captain+Kirk · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you want a practical service it MUST be port 25. If you can't offer port 25, either you need to use someone else's smtp server or to change ISP.

    1. Re:Use your ISP for SMTP or change ISP by BrynM · · Score: 4, Funny
      It's funny. I saw your nick was "Captain Kirk" and ended up reading your post envisioning William Shatner.

      (holds out hands as if pleading) "If you... want... a practical... service... itMUSTbeport25(!). If you... can't... offer... port25... either you... need... tousesomeoneelse's... smtp server... or... to... change... ISP!"

      Shatnerizing speech is fun! I'm going to have to do that more often. Thank... you(!)...

      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
  3. Incoming or outgoing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Okay, the person asking the question is clearly talking about incoming traffic, as he mentions MX records and the like. The editor, on the other hand, seems to be talking about outgoing traffic, which is a completely different kettle of fish.

    1. Re:Incoming or outgoing? by mindsuck · · Score: 1

      Yes, I was referring to incoming traffic, I thought it was clear enough but then again, english is not my native language.

      Outgoing port 25 is just fine.

      --
      --- I w00t, therefore I'm l33t.
  4. I wish more of them would by nocomment · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wish more ISP's would block email. I get so much spam through my company mail server that originates off of DSL/Cable internet services. Combine that with the recent worms that turns infected computers into spam relays. I think it should common practice to push all outbound mail through the ISP's mail server.

    And yes you can run it on non-standard ports. 26 is fairly common.

    --
    /* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
    /* http://allyourbasearebelongto.us */
    1. Re:I wish more of them would by grunthos · · Score: 5, Insightful
      my ISP blocked my port 25
      Incoming, outgoing, or both? The workarounds can be different depending on which it is.
      And yes you can run it on non-standard ports. 26 is fairly common.
      Except that the great wide world can't send mail to you if you're listening there. The sender has to be specifically configured for that.

      One thing I'm doing as a backup to my main connection is (everybody get ready to cringe) UUCP over TCP port 540. It's an easy config in the Unix/Linux world with Taylor UUCP. Sendmail handles it fine. No, no bang paths-- just plain domain names.

      This would be a workaround for a problem on incoming mail. In my case, my primary MX record points to my mail server, and my secondary MX points to my UUCP relay site (bungi.com). If a sender can't connect to me, they go to the secondary where it queues. I run an hourly UUCP poll over TCP, which picks up anything waiting. If my main connection went down or were blocked, I could retrieve incoming mail with any generic PPP dial-up account.

      I know, sounds kludgy, but it works fine.

      This would work as a workaround for outgoing blockage also, but it would be much easier to use your ISP's outgoing mail server.

      --

      My son's 5th grade teacher actually assigned them "write a limerick about a planet". I'm not kidding.
    2. Re:I wish more of them would by nocomment · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you have control of the secondary mx, but wouldn't an ssh tunnel work better? 1st mx fails, 2nd mx goes to a different server, and the mails go through ssh tunnel to first server...? No noticable lag time. That option would work well for those who could use it.

      --
      /* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
      /* http://allyourbasearebelongto.us */
    3. Re:I wish more of them would by Stinking+Pig · · Score: 1

      I'm inclined to agree. I'm all for running servers and learning at home, and I do it myself -- however, I also pay a small premium for a mom-n-pop ISP who gives me a static IP and no PPP on my DSL. Basically, you get what you pay for. If you want to run your own, do it with a small ISP; if you can't afford the $50 or so a month, talk to work and see what they can do for you or band together with some friends who can chip in for that small ISP connection or for a colo'd server.

      Just my two cents though, if you'd rather play cat and mouse with a consumer-oriented provider who doesn't want your type of user on their network, have fun.

      --
      "Nothing was broken, and it's been fixed." -- Jon Carroll
    4. Re:I wish more of them would by mindsuck · · Score: 1

      Incoming, outgoing, or both? The workarounds can be different depending on which it is. Incoming. Outgoing is fine.

      --
      --- I w00t, therefore I'm l33t.
  5. Move to SMTP over SSL by reaper20 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... and then use a smarthost (another box that sends mail on your behalf) to send the mail for you. I haven't heard of anyone blocking SMTP-SSL.

    This sucks because you need a box outside your network to do this .... but if you got a few buddies with your own mailservers you can chip in on one on a host somewhere, or find a trustworthy friend that will let you relay.

    Not the perfect solution but you at least get _some_ semblance of control.

    1. Re:Move to SMTP over SSL by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      that ends up being the same as using an off-isp box to do the sending.

      one thing is to perhaps use a web mail system (like yahoo) and create 'fake' web clients to 'click' on fields and buttons for you and send the email off that way. I also use a nice prog called fetchmailyahoo which polls yahoo (from my home bsd box) and downloads mail coming to my yahoo web account. works well. and I use yahoo filtering to keep those pesky 'microsoft security update' spams on THEIR system and it never touches my home dsl wire.

      learn perl and create fake web clients to send mail from web services for you.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:Move to SMTP over SSL by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      You say:
      """
      I also use a nice prog called fetchmailyahoo
      """

      google says:
      """
      Your search - fetchmailyahoo - did not match any documents.
      No pages were found containing "fetchmailyahoo".
      """

      Are you sure that's the name?

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    3. Re:Move to SMTP over SSL by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Informative

      sorry:

      http://fetchyahoo.sourceforge.net/

      its a GREAT program!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Move to SMTP over SSL by shumacher · · Score: 1

      If you're going to have someone offsite helping you, you could keep using SMTP, put it on a non standard port, and have your friend proxy your smtp packets. For *nix-ish systems it's easy. On Windows boxen, Portmapper is what I used to play a MUD using 443 on the machines at work.

    5. Re:Move to SMTP over SSL by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      That program looks like it's the dogs bollocks! I've been tearing my hair out regarding viruses filling my yahoo mailboxes recently, and this will cure everything, as I can run this in a cron-job, and just robo-trash the junk!

      Thanks!

      YAW

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
  6. Change ISPs by sweetooth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and be sure to let them know exactly why you are leaving when you cancel your account.

    1. Re:Change ISPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Good point. Even position it as "I'm leaving unless you fix this"

      The sales guy who's in charge or $$$ in your area will have different goals than the spam-cop.

      The sales guy'll probably have more power too.

    2. Re:Change ISPs by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hopefully this ISP isn't the only cable provider in town. Sure, he can switch to DSL. But why should he have to change his method of receiving internet traffic?

      Also, I'm sure the people who drop this ISP because of the SMTP problem is insignificant to the users that don't give a crap. The days of "The Customer is Always Right" are long gone. I'm constantly amazed that people still seem to think that a single irate letter is gonna change anything. It takes a loud cry from many people to get these lethargic corporation to see the error of their ways (or at least get off their buts and do something).

      Now, if you can show this ISP some real proof that their approach harms a signficant portion of their user base AND doesn't cut down on the spam problem anyhow, then you might have a shot of getting the ISP to change their policy. Otherwise, I think this poor guy is better off trying to figure out a work-around.

      GMD

    3. Re:Change ISPs by Ummagumma · · Score: 1

      Also, I'm sure the people who drop this ISP because of the SMTP problem is insignificant to the users that don't give a crap. The days of "The Customer is Always Right" are long gone. I'm constantly amazed that people still seem to think that a single irate letter is gonna change anything. It takes a loud cry from many people to get these lethargic corporation to see the error of their ways (or at least get off their buts and do something).

      Ah, but it takes many single irate letters to create the loud cry you speak of.

      --
      "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
    4. Re:Change ISPs by efflux · · Score: 1

      The days of "The Customer is Always Right" are long gone. Only these days only existed for retail chains. It has never been the mentality of utilities/service providers.

      --
      Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes. -- Walt Whitman
    5. Re:Change ISPs by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Some of us don't have a cable or dsl choice. At 40,000 feet to the CO, cable is the only choice, and my cable ISP has a not-tightly-enforced 'no servers of any kind' policy. Seems stupidly written, because responding to a ping could be taken to be a server. I've never asked about gaming. It's the 'of any kind' that rankles me. Though as I said, they don't enforce it, and I've had no trouble with SSH and IMAPS. I've also got point-to-point firewall rules so the ports aren't generally visible.

      But to see their point for a moment, an open SMTP relay is a DISASTER, and how to they know you're competent to run an SMTP server?

      In all likelihood, perhaps there SHOULD be a license of some sort to run a server.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    6. Re:Change ISPs by pauljlucas · · Score: 1
      But to see their point for a moment, an open SMTP relay is a DISASTER, and how to they know you're competent to run an SMTP server?
      Simple: they would try to relay mail through it. If they can, they shut you off; if they can't, they leav you alone.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
  7. easy by Apreche · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First set your smtp server on a different port.

    Second find a machine with net access outside of your isp.

    Third make an ssh tunnel from that machine to your machine.

    That should work perfectly. But nothing is guaranteed.

    --
    The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
    1. Re:easy by PhuCknuT · · Score: 1

      No need for an ssh tunnel, just have another machine accept the mail and deliver it to yours on another port. Very simple to do in qmail, probably almost as easy in sendmail and other MTAs. This has the advantage of queueing your mail on the other server whenever yours is down, which won't happen with just a tunnel.

    2. Re:easy by lewp · · Score: 1

      First rule of sendmail: Nothing is easy.

      --
      Game... blouses.
    3. Re:easy by CharterTerminal · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's the second rule of sendmail. The first rule of sendmail is: DON'T TALK ABOUT SENDMAIL.

    4. Re:easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that's the second rule of sendmail. The first rule of sendmail is: DON'T TALK ABOUT SENDMAIL.

      "Ohhhh, he came so close ladies and gentlemen! The correct answer would have been: Actually that's the third rule of sendmail. The first and second rule of sendmail are, We don't talk about sendmail."

    5. Re:easy by CharterTerminal · · Score: 1

      Ohhhh, he came so close

      She, actually. There are SOME girls on Slashdot, you know. ;)

  8. It does not help against spam (very much) by Tor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The ISP is trying to prevent your host from being an open SMTP relay, by shutting down inbound port 25.

    Although this helps a little bit in the fight against spam, the effect is not as large as your ISP thinks. Spammer/cracker gangs nowadays use viruses to infect zombie hosts (virii typically use ports 80 to infect IIS, or ports 135-139 to infect the CIFS filesharing). Once on your machine, these virii can easily send out spam on outbound port 25, no matter if your ISP blocks the inbound port or not.

    Explain this to them, maybe they'll reconsider...
    (Yeah,right).

    1. Re:It does not help against spam (very much) by Webmonger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, I've only ever heard of ISPs blocking *outbound* port 25, i.e. blocking their users from accessing port 25 on remote machines.

    2. Re:It does not help against spam (very much) by hawkbug · · Score: 1

      Some ISPs do both - Netzero dialup for example forces you to use their smtp servers to send any mail over smtp, while I can't comment on the incoming, but I do of others that do it both ways.

  9. My experiences by bpalmer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I used to use noip.com for DNS stuff. They have a mail reflector service that'll accept mail on their mailserver at port 25 and forward to your mailserver on a non-standard port. It worked okay for me, but the problem arose that cable/dsl residential IPs are listed in many of the spam blacklists. So I ended up with some ISPs I could not send mail to. Ended up upgrading to a small office commercial connection. My servers don't violate the acceptable use policy anymore, I can host anything I want (within reason) and I don't have problems with blacklists.

  10. Use a mail forwarding service by cniemira · · Score: 2, Informative

    Something like this.

    Works well as a backup in case your isp goes down too.

  11. Possibly a real solution to SPAM coming soon! by Linux_ho · · Score: 3, Informative

    RMX, a new DNS record type which lists authorized senders for a particular domain, would have a huge impact in blocking mail with a spoofed sender address. Of course, then spammers could still register their own domains to send from, but those could also be easily blocked, and it would be easier to find the spammers who registered the domain.

    I think this has a lot of potential, unlike the other bazillion idiotic non-solutions that have been proposed, like X-mulct headers, for example.

    --
    include $sig;
    1;
    1. Re:Possibly a real solution to SPAM coming soon! by Scottaroo · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiousity, why would you need a whole new domain record to do this? It's fairly common practice to only accept mail from machines listed in a domain's MX record already, and that seems to work pretty well. Using this you could add hosts that were outbound-only for a domain, but I think that might actually be of limited use.

      --
      ----------
      If your answer is Microsoft, you obviously didn't understand the question.
  12. I am planning some thing on these lines... by raj2569 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I work for a major cable ISP here and we are also having problems with spamming trojens. I have blocked all known proxy ports from outside, and things were bit quite for some time, but for past 2 - 3 months lots of spam is going out of our network. To solve it we do not want to block the customer's out going smtp completly, but now we are thinking of putting temp blocks on customers who's outgoing smtp traffic exceeds a certain limit.

    These spammer bastards are making our life hell :(

    raj

    --
    Sarovar.org Hosting for open source projects in Indi
    1. Re:I am planning some thing on these lines... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      I wouldn'd mind some INTELLIGENT blocking.

      sniff the data. if you see M$ this and M$ that and stuff that looks and smells like your system was hijacked, block that farker for sure! and tell him why so he can reinstall winblows.

      but if its NORMAL user traffic, no way should he be blocked.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  13. Not only against spammers by jsse · · Score: 1

    They block tcp ports for their benefit. Normally ISP would offer business plans which have not much difference from domestic plan except for fix ip(s), guarantee uptime and fewer restrictions on use.

    E.g. My ISP is so flexible that it has incremental business plans for opening each smtp, http, ftp, etc. ports for a fee. The most expensive of all is unrestricted tcp services, which are normally needed by medium-to-large companies.

    You might find the strategy being unfair to domestic users, but they've to differentiate their services from business plans which earn them huge profit.

    May be your ISP would offer seperate plans for opening tcp ports. Granted you might have to pay premium, but that might be better than trying to circumvent their network against the TOC.

    1. Re:Not only against spammers by battjt · · Score: 1

      s/domestic/consumer/g For me domestic means in the US; consumer means not a business. For instance domestic sales mean to selling to US entities, not consumer sales. Joe

      --
      Joe Batt Solid Design
    2. Re:Not only against spammers by jsse · · Score: 1

      Is that so...I'd be aware of it next time. :) Also s/TOC/TOS. One wouldn't have to worry about violating Table of Content would they? :D

  14. Have you tried asking? by Descartes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My ISP is pretty friendly to people running their own servers. Maybe you should just send them a friendly letter explaining your problem. Then they can keep track of you so that they know you aren't sending spam. If they can't open the port just for you, maybe they could set up some port forwarding, or even the SSH tunneling that other people have suggested.

    1. Re:Have you tried asking? by BrynM · · Score: 1
      Maybe you should just send them a friendly letter explaining your problem.
      Be sure to check your terms of service first. You don't want to call them and tell them that you are running a server that is against their TOS and get your account canned. More and more ISPs are getting draconian about this sort of thing and won't even blink at canning your account for running a "rogue server". Don't get yourself into trouble. Lots of these companies aren't here to help you - they just want your money.

      Of course, I would rather that you dumped them altogether for this and found an ISP that encourages folks to run servers and explore, like Omsoft. Far better than giving them your hard earned cahs for something you con't even fully use.

      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    2. Re:Have you tried asking? by MarkGriz · · Score: 1

      "Maybe you should just send them a friendly letter explaining your problem."

      Or perhaps call them up and sing "I want my.... I want my.... I want my SMTP"

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    3. Re:Have you tried asking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My ISP is pretty friendly to people running their own servers.

      Mine also. A specific section of their T&C mentions that running servers is fine if we want to set up a web/mail/etc server for any use we want. The only 'restriction' is they reserve the right to check if a mail server running on one of their user's accounts is acting as an open relay. If it is, Port 25 is blocked instantly.

      However, fixing the problem and verifying with the ISP that A mail server is now not open is all that's needed to get the port unblocked.

      It's simple, sensible, and allows users of their service the most flexibility IMHO. Their attitude to running servers is what brought me to them.

  15. No offense, but, "duh..." by Fux+the+Penguin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Keep in mind that if you want to pay commodity prices for a service, you are going to get a service that has been sanitized and developed for the masses. What you're asking is essentially the same as "How can I get WinXP-home to work as a good server?".

    If you want to connect to outside SMTP servers, you'll either have to go with a smaller ISP that doesn't have paranoid, 'we're not going to be the front for spam' policies in place (and make a sacrfice, be it limited dialing area, higher prices, or whatever) or tunnel out to a server that will allow you to connect to foreign SMTP servers.

    1. Re:No offense, but, "duh..." by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > Keep in mind that if you want to pay commodity prices for a service, you are going to get a service that has been sanitized and developed for the masses. What you're asking is essentially the same as "How can I get WinXP-home to work as a good server?".

      "Easy! Just plug it into a DSL or cablemodem without patching it or using a firewall! Guaranteed your XP Home Edition machine will be transformed into a high-volume SMTP engine in 15 minutes or less!"

  16. Yes, change ISP's by dacarr · · Score: 1
    Last I checked, Speakeasy allows transactions over port 25, as long as you're not running dialup or anything with dynamic IP. The rationale is that if you're running a DSL on their name, you're making a hefty investment; OTOH, just about anybody can get a throw-away dialup account, so blocking port 25 on a dialup is just something with the territory.

    Besides, if you have dynamic IP on your box, you probably shouldn't be running an SMTP server to begin with.

    --
    This sig no verb.
    1. Re:Yes, change ISP's by Zone-MR · · Score: 1

      Besides, if you have dynamic IP on your box, you probably shouldn't be running an SMTP server to begin with.

      Why not? I have a dynamic IP, although since I rarely reconnect, my IP often stays the same for months. I have a script that simply updates my MX records whenever my IP changes, essentially making sure people can send me emails without interruption.

      And running my own SMTP server has helped me reduce the amount of spam I get. When I give out my email addy, I leave in a reference to the site. Eg me@ebay.mydomain.com and me@someforum.mydomain.com. If someone leaks my addy 1) I know who, 2) I just blacklist that subdomain.

  17. Get mailserver on a port other than 25 by Fished · · Score: 1

    I have a colocated server. When my ISP (Cox) did this, I couldn't connect to port 25, but I didn't want to set my laptop to go to Cox's server (which won't work when I'm not at Cox.) What I finally did was setup my mail server to run on port 1025 as well as port 25, and pointed my mail program to that. It would be fairly trivial to do a similar setup in sendmail.

    --
    "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
  18. Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For recieving mail, I understand the need to have a dedicated server, but I have always wondered why it is considered standard and okay to send outgoing mail through a seperate server. It doesnt make sense to me at all- why do e-mail programs not just connect directly to the servers they are trying to send mail to?
    (this is just ignorance, I'm actually wondering why)

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    1. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by schon · · Score: 1

      why do e-mail programs not just connect directly to the servers they are trying to send mail to?

      Because the receiving mail server may not be up, or the link may be slow.

      If you're sending a large attachment, for example, it makes more sense to send it to your local mailserver (to which you have a fast, stable connection), and let it deal with timeouts or whatever..

      Would you want to keep your mail program open for hours or days when you didn't have to?

    2. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      reasons i can think of off the top of my head:

      1) centralized mail sending allows for cached dns queries. if everyone did an mx lookup for aol.com every time they wanted to send to an @aol.com address, their name server would receive a lot more traffic.
      2) reliability. when sending a message, i want to send it and then not think about it again. an smtp server will continue to try the message until it's timed out. my local machine would have to be connected 24/7 to do this.
      3) security. like poster has experienced, isps can lock down port 25 and force it through their own outgoing mail server. while a pita for geeks who want to run their own mailserver, it makes it much easier to identify a spammer using your network to send spam. the less spam that gets sent from your network, the less chance there is of getting blacklisted which helps you keep your customers.

    3. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by BrynM · · Score: 1
      why do e-mail programs not just connect directly to the servers they are trying to send mail to?
      This goes back to when the internet was young and sparse. Since clients didn't always have reliable connections and servers went down a little more often, it seemed logical to hand your message to a server and let it try to connect to a possibly unavailable server repeatedly than for your to sit and wait for the receiving server to come back online after an outage hitting "send" over and over again. Especially since bandwidth and connection time were at a premium back then (most ISPs had hourly rates). It was done in the name of automation and savings. It was a good solution for a number of years, but is irrelevant in today's world of high availability servers, persistant client connections and broadband. We need a new protocol, but no one wants to offer something that is for the greater good (they get greedy) and no one is willing to change their entire mail system. SMTP is very long in the tooth and will eventually break down completely one day, if you ask me (I hope). Maybe we'll get something after IPV6 is widespread ;)
      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    4. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by Matje · · Score: 1

      I've wondered about that too. The only reason I can come up with is that your smtp server will defer delivery when the receiving smtp is offline. Maybe sendmail crashed a lot in the good ol' days?

    5. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by onomatomania · · Score: 1

      Most of the responders have hit on the major points, but I'll add a few.

      A properly implemented SMTP server for outbound mail is nontrivial. There are zillions of different cases you have to be ready to deal with: the destination host is unreachable, temporarily unavailable, etc. To do this properly your mail program would have to be always running so that it could manage the outbound queue. Not to mention that I would be willing to bet that the people that write email applications have neither the skill nor the inclination to delve into the arcane world of proper SMTP semantics and best practices.

      Except for home users, the majority of people that are using mail are doing so from some sort of corporate or university LAN, or some other organizational structure. It just makes sense to have a central server that handles all the sending and receiving of email, instead of making EVERY device or node that wants to send email have to have a full SMTP engine. And for home users there is the organizational unit of the ISP, which acts in a similar way.

      Not to mention that this is traditionally how email has been handled, and there's really no good reason to change.

      That said, it's entirely possible to run exim, sendmail, qmail, or postfix on your local workstation and send directly rather than relaying. But be prepared for some degree of learning curve as you set those programs up as they can be large and complex (especially in the case of sendmail.)

    6. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by TeddyR · · Score: 1

      nope.... but there was something called UUCP that was usable with sendmail. The UUCP links were not always up all the time. They were also used for sites that had not direct links (24hr) to the internet. It was also possible to route/send mail based on "cheap rate" times or via cheaper links.. so sendmail held the mail till it was possible to send it....

      --

      --
      Time is on my side
    7. Re:Why do we have e-mail servers (for sending)? by Stinking+Pig · · Score: 1

      because the server you're sending to may not be accepting connections at the time you want to send a mail. The sending MTA will take it, take care of it, and make repeated efforts to deliver it. If your mailer had to do that, it'd have to have full time internet connectivity for one thing.

      --
      "Nothing was broken, and it's been fixed." -- Jon Carroll
  19. Mydomain? by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    It's unclear to me what exactly you're trying to do. I run Mydomain, and forward my accounts from there to a pop server. My computer then goes to the pop server and downloads the mail. A perl script then looks at the "for" in the first "Received" header, and forwards the message to sendmail. This is good enough for me, because I don't use the incoming IP address information. If you do, you might have to adjust your scripts accordingly.

    1. Re:Mydomain? by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'd find anything other than direct control over my SMTP server difficult as I use it as part of an anti-spam procedure that's one of the few that's absolutely fool proof (ie no false positives, no permanent false negatives) - my journal explains what I'm doing.

      It's depressing that most techniques to prevent abuse rarely have anything to do with the abuse itself and usually are based upon abuser profiles. I recall most EFNet servers for a while started blocking machines without working reverse DNS because a lot of abusers were using such machines. It didn't seem to matter to anyone that a lot of legitimate users had such machines and couldn't do much about it (reverse DNS for people on a dial-up link is an ISP's responsibility.)

      In this case, I think it's going absurdly far. Because a lot of people have open relays on their machines, every machine is being assumed to have an open relay. But people can and do have completely legitimate reasons to want to have an SMTP server on their machines, to receive incoming email. The promise of broadband - or rather, always on - is supposedly that more of this can be managed by the end user, and the ISP can become more of an IP packet forwarder. Instead, we're seeing the opposite, which is an immediate clamp on user freedom, and long term a clamp on innovation. I know a lot of people don't think this is important, because maybe 1% of Internet users wants to do this stuff. That same argument could be used to restrict just about any Internet service.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    2. Re:Mydomain? by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      I'd find anything other than direct control over my SMTP server difficult as I use it as part of an anti-spam procedure that's one of the few that's absolutely fool proof (ie no false positives, no permanent false negatives) - my journal explains what I'm doing.

      I thought I would have the same problem, but I don't. All the information the SMTP server gets is right there in the header files. You just reinsert the email into your SMTP server, and it can't tell the difference.

  20. I like Time Warner's solution by DavidYaw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Once a month or so, I get a message from the mail server "Delivery unsuccessful: Unknown recipient 'relaytest%security.rr.com'". If they find an open relay, then they'll do something about it; otherwise, I'm free to run my mail server.

  21. first they ignored me... by ajrs · · Score: 1
    I've got 6 small volume mailing lists in my domain. I first ran into the problem where some ISP were ignoring mail from my server on a cable modem, so I routed all out going email to my ISP's SMTP server.

    Then I ran into the problem where my email address, short and begins with 'a', was a popular choice for the last round of viruses. I eventualy had to block about 40 DSL and cable modems at my firewall.

    Then my trafic was over 99% dropped packes, effectively denying service.

    I finally gave up and hosted my email with hostforweb, which supports mailman and spam assasin. I blame microsoft, for still not realizing that computers in general, and the net in particular, is often a shared resource.

  22. What were those reasons? by hkon · · Score: 1

    You say that "I need to be able to send Email to other SMTP servers, besides theirs, for a number of legitamate reasons."[1] If it's not too personal, would you care to mention what those reasons are? I don't mean to troll, I just really fail to understand why anyone can't use their server as a SMTP relay. Why do you think that your mail will be marked as spam if you use it? As long as the relay is not open for everyone to use, then you're safe. Please tell me you're not so stupid as to think relay==open relay.

    [1]notice how nice I am not to point out your horibel speling :-P

  23. Blocked SMTP by trav3l3r · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here is how I run a mail server out of my home with port 25 blocked. For incoming mail: My domain will forward any number of e-mail addresses. I have different addresses forwarded to either my cox.net address, hotpop.com, or any of a number of other free POP3 services. On my server, I have an application (free) called poproute that runs every 10 minutes and queries all the pop3 accounts and then sends the mail directly to my internal SMTP server. All the mail goes to the proper internal mailboxes. This gets me around port 25 incoming being blocked. Outgoing Mail: Outgoing mail was very easy. I just set up my mail server to use a smart host and have my smtp server forward outgoing mail to the cox.net server. Cox.net will accept my mail because I am on the inside of thier network, and will then forward it on as if I sent the mail from any mail client. Hope this helps..

  24. Re:SMTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get Net Code 6.1, which halves your ping times, and you'll just about break even.

  25. Use a mail forwarder by Morgon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I had this happen to me, too, and I use Dynu as my MX, and you can set it to auto-forward my mail from there, to a non-standard port on your host (which for me, the first stop is my firewall, so I have my 'non-standard port' port-forwarded to 25 on my mail machine).

    It's not free, unfortunately, ($20 a year I think), but the nice thing is that they'll store 100 MB of email if for some reason they can't deliver it to your host - and since my mail is all done off of my cable, and I live in a weird area (My power was out for 8 hours yesterday because of the intense winds we were having (I live in Maryland)), it's a nice solution for me.

    --
    [DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
  26. Re:SMTP by Violet+Null · · Score: 1

    I was going to write a quick reply about how ssh could be used to do this, but then I saw that it was PhysicsGenius.

    So, in the PhysicsGenius vein, I'll just point out that if you had your mail program use a tachyon stream that ran backwards in time, you could sidestep the ping time problem entirely, by ensuring that the app always ran in 0 time.

  27. Ask your ISP to help by secolactico · · Score: 1

    Since your ISP blocked your mail gateway, ask them to smart-host you.

    --
    No sig
  28. What reasons? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1
    I need to be able to send Email to other SMTP servers, besides theirs, for a number of legitamate reasons

    Enumerate these reasons. I, personally, can't think of many reasons where a residential user needs 25 outbound, when using the network mailservers as a smarthost will work fine.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    1. Re:What reasons? by Arthur+Dent · · Score: 1


      Well, using the ISP as smarthost will mean that their mailspool will contain any email you send out. Not using the ISP as smarthost will make it harder (but not impossible) for the ISP to track your emails.
      </Paranoia>

    2. Re:What reasons? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1


      Using the ISP period means that they can snoop each and every packet you send out. Not a lot of difference between checking the mail logs and checking the etherial logs.
      </Paranoia>

      The simple fact of the matter is, this guy probably doesn't need to connect on port 25 outbound.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    3. Re:What reasons? by Aknaton · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but his reasons are besides the point. What has really happened here is that spammers and ISP stupidity have fucked up the Internet to the point where running a common TCP/IP service on one's computer (the smtp server, in this case) has to be justified to some guy on Slashdot. That's bullshit.

    4. Re:What reasons? by shamino0 · · Score: 1
      Well, using the ISP as smarthost will mean that their mailspool will contain any email you send out.

      If you're really that paranoid, I suggest you encrypt your mail at the source.

      If you don't think you can trust your ISP to keep your spooled mail private, then what makes you think they can be trusted to not packet-sniff your direct connections?

      And once you're encrypting your mail, it won't matter if your ISP has it spooled or not.

    5. Re:What reasons? by toast0 · · Score: 1

      umm... receiving mail on port 25, is not what needs to be justified; sending mail to port 25 is what needs to be justified.

      The reason it needs to be justified is that there are legitimate reasons to disallow his connections (spammers), and he has a reasonable solution (user upstream smtp server as a smart host)

    6. Re:What reasons? by Arthur+Dent · · Score: 1

      I know that there's not much difference, but doing one is a lot easier and probably less resource intensive than doing the other.

    7. Re:What reasons? by Arthur+Dent · · Score: 1

      Who's to say it's not really happening?
      I'm indifferent to it, and was just offering a possible explanation for the OP not wanting to use the ISP's mail server as smarthost.

    8. Re:What reasons? by Detritus · · Score: 1
      You're assuming that the ISP knows how to run their mail servers, and has adequate equipment provisioned for them. Bad assumption.

      Just wait until your ISP starts randomly dropping messages, or leaves them sitting in the queue for hours.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    9. Re:What reasons? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      It has to be justified to some guy on Slashdot because it was asked to some guy at slashdot.

      And you're right; a few have ruined it for everybody. Nevertheless, this fellow has a common problem; he does't ask for the right answer. He's looking to find out how to implement a specific solution; he's not asking what solution he should be implementing.

      I liken it to 'what's the most efficient way I can shovel the snow out of my driveway with this large teaspoon?' while talking to the guy in charge of snow blowers.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    10. Re:What reasons? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      That's a quality of service problem, and is addressed separately.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    11. Re:What reasons? by Detritus · · Score: 1

      It's a perfectly legitimate reason to avoid the ISP's broken mail servers.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    12. Re:What reasons? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't.

      If the mail server is broken, get them fixed, or switch ISPs.

      If you're on a residental account with restrictions such as 'no servers,' but they say 'we'll not enforce those restrictions unless we have to,' then don't whine when they start enforcing them.

      There are services out there where it would never even occur to the company to consider even thinking about blocking off a port; pony up and go for it.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    13. Re:What reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Echelon, it's not what you think it is dude.

    14. Re:What reasons? by shamino0 · · Score: 1
      Who's to say it's not really happening?

      You miss my point.

      I'm not saying that ISP's can be trusted with your privacy. I personally believe that they can't be. And I'm certain that government routinely snoops on all kinds of communication, whether they're officially allowed to or not. But this has no impact on whether or not you should be relaying your outbound mail through an ISP server. It's just as easy to transparently proxy-and-store packets that are being sent "directly" to a remote host.

      Without encyrption at the source, there is no security. With encryption (assuming a reasonably secure cipher), either choice (send directly or through an ISP server) will be equally secure.

  29. What we did... by schon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I work for a major cable ISP here and we are also having problems with spamming trojens. To solve it we do not want to block the customer's out going smtp completly

    I work for a small ISP. We worked around this problem a little differently..

    Instead of blocking outbound SMTP, we opted to transparently proxy outbound SMTP sessions to our mail server.

    The mail server does connection-rate throttling, and if the load on the server exceeds 'normal', the on-duty admin gets paged, so he can check the mail queue to see where the problem is - if it's a spam run, we shut off the ability for that customer to send SMTP, and purge the spam from the queue.

    This has worked exceedingly well for us - the one time someone's machine has been used for spam (in the past 3 years), we were able to shut it off with only 2 spams making it out of our system.

    I don't know how well it would scale for you, but it should be do-able.

    1. Re:What we did... by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > > I work for a major cable ISP here and we are also having problems with spamming trojens. To solve it we do not want to block the customer's out going smtp completly
      >
      >Instead of blocking outbound SMTP, we opted to transparently proxy outbound SMTP sessions to our mail server.

      If more residential broadband ISPs did the kinds of things you're doing 18 months ago, I wouldn't have had to block all inbound port 25 traffic from 200.0.0.0/7, 12.0.0.0/8, 24.0.0.0/8, and the various /16s where the Comcast and Cogeco trojan-box armies live.

      Keep up the good work. I only wish others would follow your lead. Someday I'd like to be able to remove those /8 blocks altogether.

    2. Re:What we did... by Electrum · · Score: 1

      Instead of blocking outbound SMTP, we opted to transparently proxy outbound SMTP sessions to our mail server.

      That is a HORRIBLE solution. I would not use an ISP that hijacked my traffic. It is much better to block outgoing traffic on TCP port 25 so that users know it is blocked and can find a different solution, such as relaying mail through your server.

    3. Re:What we did... by MagicMike · · Score: 1

      I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that "transparently" proxy means "we really didn't change a single thing, we just sent the traffic through here so we could do the throttling and queue it, and that was it"

      Perhaps that's a security problem, but then, STMP over SSL would solve it, so what's the problem? On the face of it, this does seem like a really good solution

    4. Re:What we did... by Electrum · · Score: 1

      Perhaps that's a security problem

      The problem is that the ISP is hijacking a customer's traffic. If you want to block certain packets, fine. Don't alter them.

    5. Re:What we did... by schon · · Score: 1

      That is a HORRIBLE solution.

      Care to explain why?

      I would not use an ISP that hijacked my traffic.

      We're not "hijacking" anything - the mail ends up going exactly where it's supposed to be going.

      What does it matter if the mail is relayed through SMTP server A or SMTP server B? As long as it reaches it's destination, there is no problem.

      It is much better to block outgoing traffic on TCP port 25 so that users know it is blocked

      If you read the responses here, you'll find that most people disagree with you - ISPs shouldn't be blocking legitimate outbound traffic. Blocking outbound SMTP in an attempt to stop spam is wrong, because it targets everybody, instead of just the spammers.

      can find a different solution, such as relaying mail through your server.

      This poses a problem with "road warriors" - people who have a laptop they take home from work. It's a pain in the ass for them to have to change their SMTP settings. Most people don't even know what an SMTP server is - all they'll see is "you're blocking my legitimate mail."

      Transparent proxies are quite common - many large ISPs do it with HTTP.. transparently proxying SMTP is an elegant solution to the problem of 'whack-a-mole' spamming.

    6. Re:What we did... by Electrum · · Score: 1

      We're not "hijacking" anything - the mail ends up going exactly where it's supposed to be going.

      You're hijacking my traffic. If initiate a TCP connection to a remote host, I expect it to connect to the remote host, not somewhere that my ISP chooses for me.

      As long as it reaches it's destination, there is no problem.

      What if the remote host is currently down? The mail then sits in your mail queue, even though I was told it was delivered to what I thought was the correct destination.

      What if your mail server crashes and loses the message, after I was told it was delivered?

    7. Re:What we did... by MagicMike · · Score: 1

      Ahh - I definitely see your point.

      I guess I was thinking about an implicit tradeoff between "we can't offer this service" or, "we can offer this service, but we're going to proxy you in order to put rate limiting on".

      That wasn't written out anywhere, and its unclear whether the ISP in question advertises their mail setup and its proxy behavior.

      From my perspective as a smalltime SMTP admin, if I was given fair warning of a proxy and it was explained to me (truthfully) exactly what it does, I wouldn't have an issue with it. I would see it as a positive actually, since my netblock would have a correspondingly low chance of ending up in blackhole lists.

      Doing a proxy of any sort silently seems a bit off though, I'll grant that.

  30. Inbound vs. outbound SMTP by Tor · · Score: 1

    It sounds like the original poster's ISP is blocking inbound traffic to port 25 on his own server -- that's why he raised the question of SMTP on a different port (which, by the way, is mostly useless).

    The updated article, with the bit about Charter blocking direct outbound SMTP connections, should not be much of a problem for the casual home user - even those that wish to run their own inbound SMTP server. Simply set the SMTP server up to use the designated smarthost.

    Moreover, many MTAs now reject incoming mails received directly from an ISP's dynamic IP address ranges. For instance, the RBL at dynablock.easynet.nl is being used by a default SpamAssassin configuration (score 2.6 or so). So even if your ISP did not block outbound SMTP, the recipient may never actually get your message if you send it directly from your IP address.

    If you are concerned with security (cfr. the reference to SSL), you really ought to encrypt your messages (with PGP or similar).

    -tor

  31. ISP don't want home users to run "servers" by DDumitru · · Score: 4, Informative
    Many ISPs don't want home user to run servers or services that are not traditionally considered a part of the home internet experience. Some of the restrictions in the AUPs can get pretty ugly. Here are a couple of examples:
    • Some don't let you run tunnels to telecommute and run office applications remotely.
    • Most don't let you run public servers like web, email, ftp, etc.

    There are a couple of justifications for this. Some are probably more realistic than others.

    • They want to sell you a more expensive business account
    • They want to prune out the high-volume users that burn a lot of bandwidth
    • They want to avoid the DCMA requests for takedowns and other legal (both real and imagined) stuff.
    • They are really trying to reduce spam
    • They assume they know more about what you need than you do

    My cable-modem ISP (Cox) blocks outbound 25. This is a minor only a minor issue to me because Cox's outbound mail servers are generally:

    • Reasonably reliable
    • Don't mind my sending mail using my domain names

    I receive mail with co-lo servers that are part of my business.

    The comment of not trusting outbound relaying because they might look at it is a bit misplaced. Looking at internet traffic is pretty easy for anyone with the desire and means to do so. If you send outbound SMTP on your cable modem, your ISP can look at the packets if they have the desire to do so (and I doubt that this breaks any laws). It does not really matter if they relay the traffic or not. They have physical access to the network, so they can sniff either way. On the other hand, they are pretty unlikely to do so unless they are asked by some governmental agency. Basically, sniffing such large amounts of data is uninteresting to them, so why would they bother. If you are worried about eavesdropping on email, encrypt.

    In your case, I suspect that the blocks have two reasons:

    Inbound blocks to 25 are just an enforcement to a no servers rule. I suspect that there are also blocks on 80 and perhpas a bunch of others. In all fairness, I would hate to run a mail server in-house on a cable modem. Mail is just too important to me, and I don't trust my in-house systems to be up 24x7. That is what co-lo is for.

    Outbound blocks to 25 are an attempt to slow down spam. Specifically, they prevent hacked home systems from becoming SMTP relays. In general, this is probably a good thing and most users with hacked boxes never know the damage they are doing.

    Your only real solutions that you have are:

    • Convince your ISP to open the ports up. They probably won't do this.
    • Use your ISP's mail server and pull messages from it with POP/IMAP or similar
    • Switch ISPs, perhaps to a business-type account with static IPs and no filtering
    • Use an outside mail server that does not have these restrictions.

    None of these are 100% free or pretty, but the bottom line is that you are using your cable-modem line in a manner that doesn't fit your provider's pre-conceived image of the type of user they have/want.

    On the other hand, the solutions above are not necessarily that expensive either. You can get email hosting with adequate access for <$10/mo, co-lo virtual servers for <$15/mo, and full dedicated co-lo servers for <$100/mo.

  32. Fair enough...but who's gonna write the others? by GuyMannDude · · Score: 1

    Ah, but it takes many single irate letters to create the loud cry you speak of.

    You're right, of course. Still, I think unless you can get some guarantee from others to 'match' your letters, I think you are wasting your time. It sounds like the original questioner has already resigned himself to the fact that he has neither the time or desire to organize some kind of protest to the ISP. I can sympathize -- I'd do the same thing in his place. My original message was a response to sweetooth who seemed to suggest that writing a letter to the ISP was going to somehow improve the greater common good.

    My opinion is that you should either put some effort into massing an organized response to the ISP or you should just drop it. I think the idea of sending a letter and telling yourself that you did "the right thing" because other people are going to do the same is delusional.

    GMD

    1. Re:Fair enough...but who's gonna write the others? by Merk · · Score: 1

      Sounds like voting to me. Vote for the person you think is the ideal candidate and that's enough, delusional. Organizing other people to vote or do something else to make a change -- that's worthwhile.

    2. Re:Fair enough...but who's gonna write the others? by Ummagumma · · Score: 1

      Interesting perspective, and you raise some very valid points. I've never considered that before.

      --
      "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
  33. Exactly the opposite by lizrd · · Score: 2, Informative
    They do provide a relay, but won't my messages get labelled as SPAM if I use that?
    Exactly the opposite actually. Sending mail from a cablemodem IP range is very likely to get your e-mail rejected as SPAM. Sending it through your ISP's relay will clean up that problem for you.
    --
    I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
    1. Re:Exactly the opposite by Aknaton · · Score: 1

      Here is what happened to me on Comcast, which does not block port 25.

      I had configured Sendmail for the direct sending of e-mail (with receiving accomplished via POP3 with Fetchmail). All was good until the first time I tried to send an e-mail to someone at AOL. The e-mail bounced back to me, as the originating IP address was from Comcast's block of dynamically assigned IPs. So I reconfigured Sendmail to use Comcast's SMTP server as a smarthost and everything was cool. Then I tried to e-mail a company that I was trying to contact and I received a bounced e-mail from them because I was using a Comcast smarthost (it was listed as a Spam source on some blackhost list).

      So you see, you can get caught both ways.

      What I probably need is a webhost that will host my domain name and provide me with POP and SMTP over non-standard ports via SSH. That might work better.

    2. Re:Exactly the opposite by toast0 · · Score: 1

      if you're gonna tunnel through ssh, you might as well use standard ports for pop/smtp... you could also use ssl instead, since that's way more likely to be supported by your email client

  34. Define commodity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't get any more of a commodity than, "here's the pipe...there ya' go...you're on your own!" It's when they start adding things that it becomes less of a commodity from their end.

    And that's where the problem comes in. Most of these providers define the service as the pipe and everything else is value-added, i.e. not guaranteed. You think you'll get a refund if your mail goes down for a month? Read the fine print!

  35. Dyndns Mailhop May be what you are looking for by cmehta1 · · Score: 1

    Consider looking at at www.dyndns.org's Mailhop package where they are the MX server of record (with port 25 open) for all your mail and then they redirect all your email traffic to your non-standard port, say 2525.

    Then use a NAT/IP-Masquerading/firewall setup on your box (iptables) to redirect port 2525 to port 25 for any incoming smtp traffic.

    This method has the benefit of having two available ports for smtp. Port 25 for everyone behind the NAT/IP-Masquerading/firewall box and Port 2525 for all those on the outside. This way ALL other services and clients (behind the firewall) use the std port 25 for their smtp settings and you dont have to change any Postfix configurations.

    By adding these two lines to my /etc/rc.d/rc.firewall-2.4 iptables script, it creates the port redirection.

    echo " Creating SMTP(Mail) Port Redirect from port 2525 to port 25"
    iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 2525 -j DNAT --to 192.168.0.1:25

    Also be advised that Postfix/RH9 comes with the config file locked down to receive only smtp traffic from localhost. You need to change the following settings to something a little less restrictive,but hopefully not too permissive as to become an open relay.

    Config File: /etc/postfix/main.cf
    inet_interfaces = all
    mynetworks_style = subnet
    ----

    After I set the redirect up, I ordered DynDNS.org's mailhop package. Well a half-hour later after requesting/paying for it, I was receiving email on port 2525.

    To be fair, I already started pointing my purchased-elsewhere-domain at their DNS servers a few days previously, and DNS properly propagated in that time frame. So perhaps its much simpler if you let them manage both domain and mailer-relay.

    Total Cost = $60 (25/Custom DNS + 40/Mailhop Package - 5/Discount for both packages)

    Money well-spent in my opinion! Its been about two-three months with NO hiccups or lost mail that I have known about.

  36. Re:SMTP by PhuCknuT · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it be easier to just have the MTA listen on the other port?

  37. Pick up 2600 Magazine. by sabNetwork · · Score: 1

    Pick up the latest 2600 (Fall 2003) from Barnes & Noble or online. There's an entire article on how to get around your ISP's port-blocking stupidity.

    --

  38. Best responce to a troll ever... by TamMan2000 · · Score: 1

    You just made my day, that was great...

    --
    "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
  39. Blocking inbound/outbound port 25 should be strd by Sandman1971 · · Score: 1

    I'm a sysadmin for a large ISP, and let me tell you, the benifits of blocking inbound & outbound SMTP for residential customers is a god send. We implemented outbound SMTP restrictions more than a year ago, and more recently also added inbound SMTP. Since a great number of the viruses/worms out that spam (either regular spam or to replicate itself) use their own SMTP engines, this stops them dead in their tracks, since they can't mail out (unless they go out another port). I really wish other ISPs would do this as a standard for their residential users. I do run my own mail server at home (I'm not on a residential account), and 99% of the spam I do get is from residential customers/dynamic IP space (of which, probably 75% of the spam I've received in the last couple of months has been from Comcast. I'm seriously thinking of blocking all their IP space and only allow their known MTAs. When I put in blocks to block all of APNIC, my spam reduced more than 50%)

    --
    It's better to burn out than to fade away
  40. Re:Blocking inbound/outbound port 25 should be str by Tor · · Score: 1

    You know, rather than blocking all IP's owned by ComCast, you could filter your mails via the RBL at dynablock.easynet.dl. This lists dynamic IP ranges given out by the likes of Comcast for residential customers. Indeed, ComCast & other ISPs are the ones contributing these address ranges to the maintainers of that RBL.

    -tor

  41. Easy fix.. by zcat_NZ · · Score: 1
    # "Smart" relay host (may be null)
    DSsmtp.maxnet.co.nz

    I still run my own server, I can set up whatever filtering I want, other machines on my network never have to be reconfigured, but now all my mail is immediately forwarded through my ISP's mail server instead of being delivered directly.

    BTW; My ISP doesn't block port 25 but many other ISP's won't accept mail from dialup and ADSL connections. I got sick of the bounces.

    --
    455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
    1. Re:Easy fix.. by TeddyR · · Score: 1

      The other thing that some users may forget is that by using the ISP mail server as a smarthost [or the universitys mail server, etc] is that the mail server may have special/specific mail routing rules that only take effect to/from certain machines...

      Perfect example:

      I know of an ISP and a .edu that had an agreement for all email traffic to go through a dedicated link (only email traffic was routed through this link) since at the time more than 60% of the email traffic was between the two sites which were physically less than a mile apart. They setup a dedicated T1 circuit between the sites for email destined to each other to reduce the load on the external links for other traffic.

      {The .edu had a link through the parent .edu school system, the ISP had a link through its own commercial means}

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      Time is on my side
  42. A little late here... by segvio · · Score: 1

    but check out: MailHop from DynDns. They'll "proxy" your domain at port 25 and forward it to your real IP at a non-standard port.

  43. Stop complaining and pay for full access. by Hobart · · Score: 1

    Yes, it's a pain to pay more money, for less bandwidth, just so you can have an Internet connection that allows you to host your own servers.

    Pay for it. I am. And all of my friends have cablemodems that have twice the download speed than my DSL line.

    --
    o/~ Join us now and share the software ...
  44. IPv6 by Isomer · · Score: 1

    For sending mail you can use IPv6, most ISP's have no idea what IPv6 is and ignore it (and pass it through). If you use IPv6 address mapped IPv4 addresses (ie: ::FFFF:1.2.3.4) to send mail, then it will be routed out via IPv6, then someone running a IPv6 to IPv4 relay host will convert it for you back to IPv4 to talk to the remote host.

    Alternatively, use IPv6 to a host you control outside your ISP that can use SMTP AUTH to let you realy. Or use IPsec to a host you control outside your ISP. Or better yet, use IPv6 AND IPsec to outside your provider.

  45. SMTP Redirection Service by saroth2 · · Score: 1

    NO-IP.COM has a service that looks like it does what you're looking for: reroute messages traveling on port 25 to the desired port.
    http://www.no-ip.com/services.php/mail/smtp

  46. PS:SMTP Redirection Service by saroth2 · · Score: 1

    Oh, I forgot, you may have to use a no-ip.com domain, although you can probably use an existing domain.

  47. Cox IP blockages by StupidKatz · · Score: 1

    Port State Service
    21/tcp filtered ftp
    22/tcp open ssh
    23/tcp open telnet
    25/tcp filtered smtp
    53/tcp filtered domain
    80/tcp filtered http
    135/tcp filtered loc-srv
    136/tcp filtered profile
    137/tcp filtered netbios-ns
    138/tcp filtered netbios-dgm
    139/tcp filtered netbios-ssn
    443/tcp open https
    445/tcp filtered microsoft-ds
    515/tcp filtered printer
    1433/tcp filtered ms-sql-s
    12345/tcp filtered NetBus
    17300/tcp filtered kuang2
    27374/tcp filtered subseven
    31337/tcp filtered Elite

    Looks like they need a laxative. Badly.
    (Not sure why they left 443 open, but I'm happy they did! Hopefully, it must be open both ways to establish the connection or something, or they're too dumb/lazy to get around to it.)

    1. Re:Cox IP blockages by TeddyR · · Score: 1

      They left https open because https proxies do not work well; and using https proxies defeats the security model {in some cases https proxies are sometimes detected as "man in the middle" attacks}.

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      Time is on my side
    2. Re:Cox IP blockages by DDumitru · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was curios so I asked a Cox support person on chat what was blocked. They have a page published on this. You can get there by searching for "blocked" on their FAQ.

      I see a couple of ports in your list that are not in theirs, so the FAQ may be a little out of date.

      In general, I would love to see a "control panel" that let you set this up yourself (instead of making it global), but there choices are not unreasonable on the surface. They also appears to be full disclosure here, so I would compliment Cox in this area.

      Here is a cut-and-paste of their FAQ.

      What ports do you block?

      Answer:

      Reasons For Filtering Ports

      Protecting our customers - Certain ports are filtered in order to protect our customers. We can protect them from certain common worms and protect them from running dangerous services on their computers that could allow intruders access.
      Protecting our upstream bandwidth - Upstream bandwidth to a cable plant is limited. If customers over utilize their upstream bandwidth by running high-traffic servers or becoming infected with a worm or virus, it can degrade the service of other customers on their node.
      Protecting the rest of the Internet - Some filters prevent our customers from attacking other computers on the Internet. In addition to being in our best interests for protecting our bandwidth, it is our duty as good Netizens to prevent abuse of our network.

      Port Transport Protocol Direction Reason for Filtering
      25 TCP SMTP Both* SMTP Relays
      80 TCP HTTP Inbound Web servers, worms
      135 UDP NetBios Both Net Send Spam/Pop-ups, Worms
      136-139 UDP, TCP NetBios Both Worms, Network Neighhood
      445 TCP MS-DS/NetBios Both Worms, Network Neighhood
      1433 TCP MS-SQL Inbound Worms, Trojans
      1434 UDP MS-SQL Inbound Worms, SQLslammer
      1900 UDP MS-DS/NetBios Both Worms, Network Neighhood
      27374 TCP Subseven Both SubSeven Trojan

      *SMTP is only permitted outbound to Cox-provided SMTP servers

      Detailed Explanations Of Filtered Ports

      25/TCP - SMTP. SMTP stands for Simple Mail Transport Protocol. This is the protocol that mail servers use to exchange email. We block this in order to protect upstream bandwidth and prevent customers from running open relays could potentially be used by others to send spam via our network.

      80/TCP - HTTP. HTTP stands for Hypertext Transport Protocol. This is the protocol web browsers use to communicate with web servers. In addition to protecting bandwidth by preventing customers from running high-traffic web servers, we can stop many destructive worms that spread via security holes in web server software.

      135,137/UDP, 135,139/TCP, 445 MS-DC - NetBIOS. NetBIOS (also known as Server Message Block, LanManager, and Common Internet File System) is a networked file sharing protocol. The Microsoft Windows "Network Neighborhood" runs over NetBIOS. We filter this port to protect customers from inadvertently exposing files on their computers, and also to block worms which spread via open file shares. The latest addition to this series, a consolidated service port (TCP445), has also opened new (yet similar) security risks in Win2K and WinXP.

      1433/TCP, 1434/UDP - MS-SQL. Microsoft SQL Server (and software designed with SQL Server components) is a database application with a long history of security exploits, and is noted for the propagation of the SQLslammer worm. These ports are filtered to prevent exploitation and propagation of MS-SQL exploits.

      1900/UDP - UPnP discovery/SSDP, is a service that runs by default on WinXP, and creates an immediately exploitable security vulnerability for any network-connected system. Filtering this port proactively prevents XP systems from being remotely compromised by malicious worms or intruders.

      27374/TCP - SubSeven. SubSeven is a common trojan. When installed on a victim's computer, it allows an attacker to remote control it over the Internet. SubSeven can be configured to run on any port - not just 27374 - but blocking this port at least provides our customers some protection and prevents our customers from attacking others on the default port.

  48. Two cases here... by crapulent · · Score: 1

    There are really two seperate cases being discussed here, so let's be clear:

    * ISP is blocking outbound port 25 traffic, except to their mail server ("smarthost" as it's known.) In this case, you cannot send mail directly. THe solution is to relay through your ISP's smarthost. If you can configure one of the various forms of authentication then usually you can send as any email address, so you don't have to worry about your domain name not being the same as your ISP's. You can also use a third party's smarthost, such as if you're paying for webhosting space for your website. It's best to do SMTP over SSL, but if your smarthost does not support this then many hosts will allow incoming traffic on port 26, so that your ISP's block does not stop you. You'll still have to setup authentication of some sort.

    * ISP is blocking inbound port 25 traffic. This is harder to work around, and affects running your own mail server to receive incoming mails, as opposed to just sending mails directly as above. I'd say if you're running a mailserver on a cable modem you're probably doing yourself a disservice, and most likely breaking your TOS/AUP. It's a disservice in that I certainly wouldn't want to have to worry about losing emails when I take my computer down or want to play a game. You may disagree, or you may have a dedicated machine for receiving mail.

    You can achieve the same effect, however, by having your mail delivered to some other host or dropbox, and then using a tool such as fetchmail to poll that dropbox regularly and deliver the messages to your local spool. This will have all the same effects as running your own mail server in that you can still have mail delivered to users or aliases, and procmail recipies (etc.) all work as expected. The only thing you can't really do is message rejection at delivery-time, which is a shame as this is the only really effective way of making your point to spammers. But that's another topic...

  49. Answer the question by stry_cat · · Score: 1

    Most of these responces are something like "I can't for the life of me figuer out why you want to do this therefor you shouldn't do it" Or "It's just a bad idea to run a mail server on a cable modem" The person asking the question is obviously some kind of geek (or he wouldn't be asking questions of /.) and has his own reasons for wanting to do this. Either answer the question do don't waste your time replying. My only solution to this problem is to use smartforwarding with the company that hosts my webserver. I'm looking for another company that will provide me with full internet access insted of the crap that ATT/Mediaone/whateveritscallnow is providing me.

  50. Check out this thread: by no_such_user · · Score: 1

    I posted a nearly identical question a while ago, when AOL (and others) started to reject SMTP connections from what they determined were dynamically assigned IP addresses. Take a look at the thread:

    http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/19/ 23 27248&mode=nested&tid=126

    I was hoping to find a "virtual" mail ISP which would allow me to relay my outgoing mail (preferably in a encrypted tunnel, but I'm not holding my breath). Instead, I ended up configuring postfix to relay only mail destined to problem addresses (mostly aol properties) through my ISP's SMTP relay. I know this isn't the same problem you're having, but some of the solutions are the same.

  51. How about the other way? by barzok · · Score: 1
    My sister's college network has port 25 outbound blocked, so she can't use our family's hosted email. She can receive just fine, but she can't send via the STMP server our host provides.

    Tried sending through the school's SMTP host with From & Reply-To set to her "hosted" address. Refused to relay.

    Our host set up an additional port, in the hopes that they just blocked the standard port. I can telnet from her machine to the host on that port, but MozMail can't make the connection.

    Then my VNC connection got cut off, so I had to stop testing things. Seems like they blocked those ports too. She's down to only being able to use HTTP, FTP, and IM protocols as far as I can tell.

  52. using a mail-reflector to avoid *inbound* block by Smeedy · · Score: 1

    So my ISP start blocking all *inbound* traffic on port 25 to avoid the exploit of poorly configured servers. I ran a mailserver for quite some time and without notice I was cut off early August 2002.

    My first 'solution' was using Eric S. Raymond's fetchmail. My domain name registrar let me choose to define a MX host for my mail, or to have all mail forwarded to an existing pop account. So I changed it to the latter and let fetchmail empty that pop box on a 15 minute interval from my mailserver. Fetchmail examines the headers of every individual e-mail, rewrites the headers and submit it to localhost which was cut off in the first place.
    This works quite nice, but has some side effects like BCC's which couldn't be resolved anymore and ended up in the 'main' account. Still, it works out fine, provided that you have an e-mail account you can use. I had one which came with my ISP.

    So I stumbled upon no-ip.com. They provide a mail-reflector which reroutes e-mail to a port of my choosing. So I made them the primary MX host for my domain and let my mailserver listen on a high-port. Works like a charms for over a year no without any problems. I'm sure there are others who provide similar services.

    Martijn

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    31.69 nHz = once a year
  53. Aye capt'n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But couldn't we use the deflector dish ?

  54. Compromise! by JackJudge · · Score: 1

    We had an identical situation with BT Openworld a couple of years ago.
    The user community was pretty damn organised though and a mass boycott was threatened. True, BT Openwound (they've earned that name)had performed a number of spectacular cock-ups recently, so a compromise was reached. They twice daily scanned all IPs they owned for open mail relays, any found had inbound SMTP blocked.
    If you're too dumb to secure your mail server, you're too dumb to run one was their attitude and the user community agreed.

  55. Blacklisting your ISP for your mere asking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Charter was mentioned as one of the SMTP blockers. I happen to blacklist Charter already, due to earlier spam incidents that I consider unresolved, and protect my private mailbox that way. Learning about them beating up their own customers isn't going to change that.

    On the contrary, I'd be happy to blacklist any ISP known to give their customers a hard time, even if I haven't seen a single piece of spam from them! I don't need inbound SMTP myself right now, but I may need it in the future, and it would be good if my future ISP has had some incentive to keep port 25 open from the beginning and learned how to manage that situation.

    I offer access to my mailbox free of charge, but not indiscriminately to everybody on the planet. Sending me junk mail is one way of opting out from a business relationship with me. Beating up your own customers (my friends and fellow netizens) for no good reason at all is another.

    Access to my personal mailbox in particular is not important to any ISP (except perhaps my own). However, access to millions of unimportant mailboxes just like mine should be important to any ISP offering "e-mail access" to its customers. There is no point in me spending all my time maintaining a private blacklist used by me only. However, by using a public blacklist maintained according to criteria accepted by me, I make a minor sacrifice in terms of accessibility for the benefit of helping to put an uncooperative ISP out of business sooner rather than later. In the long term, the wellbeing of an individual ISP (or their particular customers) is not important. Standard practice of operating an ISP is.

    So, who wants to set up this particular blacklist?

  56. Krondor's gripe by Syberghost · · Score: 0

    The idea that you need to not use your ISP's SMTP server because "it's not encrypted" is almost laughable.

    Almost nobody supports SSL on their SMTP servers anyway, so you'll be sending unencrypted mail anyway. With the few people to whom you are sending encrypted mail, you'd be better served by encrypting the emails than the servers, because you'll be better able to control that (what if they break their setup and are no longer accepting encrypted SMTP? Will you even notice?)

    Don't give me the "they can snoop my mail" rap, either; it's all going over their network. If it ain't encrypted, it can (and probably occasionally does) get snooped.

    On the other hand, preventing random users from sending out email directly is a big help in enforcing anti-spam AUPs. As I'm sure you've noticed, a growing number of systems on the other end are refusing inbound email from dynamic IP ranges. Large ISPs are starting to cooperate with the anti-spam blacklists by providing those IP ranges, too. You're fighting to preserve a decreasingly relevant preference. Give up.

    About the only legitimate reason to send your own mail is troubleshooting, and it doesn't outweigh the anti-spam issues. Get over it, you're not going to get your ISP to change.

    1. Re:Krondor's gripe by tonedeaf_1969 · · Score: 1

      How about this legitimate reason. I work for a hosting comapany for small/medium sized business, one of the services we offer is coporate email. Last week we got a flood of calls from Sales people on the road or people trying to send mail from their coporate accounts from home, they couldn't anymore. Turns out the largest ISP (and telco) in my area implemented this port 25 policy for all PPPoE customers, residential and business. So, my company can no longer offer email to users on this ISP's network (that'll change, we're looking into legal recourse now). This won't slow spam down on this particular network, because they still allow anonymous mail relay. All it does is force our customers to switch to another service, which is illegal here in Canada.

  57. Re:Blocking inbound/outbound port 25 should be str by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Except that your customers pay for _connectivity_, you fucking asshole.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  58. Re:Blocking inbound/outbound port 25 should be str by Sandman1971 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and your point? For 99.9% of RESIDENTIAL customers, this doesn't affect them in the least.

    Viruses/worms cause networks and servers to slow down to a crawl, affecting everybody. Without such blocks in place, everyone gets affected. With the blocks in place, only a handful of users are affected. So we are assuring connectivity FOR EVERYONE. And I'm not even mentioning the "no server" clause of the AUP. The only reason a port 25 block would affect you is if you are running a mail server, which is against the contract that you agreed upon when signing up.

    If you want to run servers, then you would need to upgrade to business class, where there are no such blocks.

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    It's better to burn out than to fade away