Slashdot Mirror
iTunes for Windows Breaking Older iPods
evil_liam asks: "In our office we've been running an older 5gb iPod with both Macs and PC's (using Xplay), but when we installed iTunes for the PC the iPod stopped working. Songs and playlists transfer over fine, and you can see them and play them in iTunes, but you can't listen to them on the iPod, itself. It shows the song details and so forth, but skips through the tracks, playing 0 seconds of each one until it finishes. This only applies to tracks added since iTunes was installed. No amount of reformatting, or rolling back firmware seems to work. When I called Apple, they stated that they simply don't support the use of the older Mac iPods on PC's and are not responsible, even though they admit that it was their own software that caused this. We're not alone, see this thread at Apple.
I'm not quite suggesting that this was deliberate, but they are aware of it and don't seem to care." Does anyone have ideas on possible fixes for the afflicted iPods?
But from talking to my Mac using friends, this is SOP for Apple. Try running iTunes on some older version of MacOS... probably won't work. Or try installing OSX on older hardware, same issue. They don't stick with older hardware or software.
I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to blame Apple's fuck up on MS.
I'm not sure this is the best fix, after all, if the older ones are vulnerable to this and Apple won't lift a finger to assist, then what reason do we have to believe that the next incarnation of iTunes won't break the newer ones?
On the cynical side, lack of function has never seemed to deter Windows users in the past, I wonder if Apple will even feel a hiccup from this?
"Talk minus action equals nothing" - Joey Shithead, D.O.A.
"Talk minus action equals
Is this really worth posting to the Slashdot home page? I'm an Apple user, and even to me this seems to be something worthy of posting to the MacNN/ArsTechnica forums, but not to the slashdot home page.
Slashdot is not tech support.
- Vincit qui patitur.
Of the 8 posts on apple's site, most of them seem to think that Apple has done this intentionally. Let's be clear--Apple has NOTHING to gain by pissing off the Windows user base. Their entire strategy hinges on positive experience with Apple products that encourages people to switch and have that experience with every interaction. I would be surprised if the actual interactions with Apple have been all that negative (yes...I'm saying that some people may be aggrevated and exaggerating). My interactions with Apple (as a Mac user) have always been reasonably positive, whether this be for sales, technical support or developer relations.
It's silly to think they're trying to sabatoge the Windows base. And if some phone rep blew it...well, that's clearly a problem but I just don't see this as anything more than one person's screw up.
---- Please be nice in case my Slashdot karma ~= my real life karma.
I don't have an iPod so I don't know how long the warranty lasts, but if it's still under warranty return it to the retailer or manufacturer as defective.
As many of you who have worked in retail know, it hardly matters if you smashed it with a hammer. They'll take it back.
Mod parent up. He's exactly right. The same guy posing the "problem" also created that thread. Cliff, do you do any research and check any details before posting any story related to Apple? This is 3 for 3. Cliff the "Let-Me-Turn-apple.slashdot.org-Into-A-FixIt-Forum " Slashdot Editor.
A vendor gave me an Intel Pocket Concert 128MB MP3 player about two years ago, and its now very nearly a boat anchor. Intel stopped selling them and has ceased development on drivers. The version of software still available from Intel supports XP, but what about the next iteration/service pack from Redmond? I didn't pay for this device out of my pocket, but if I did I'd be kind of pissed that it's very nearly unusable due to software on the computer.
And that's what scares me (next to breaking or having stolen) about an iPod -- what happens when Apple says "Sorry, we don't support you" as few as two years down the road -- are you just SOL? Time for another $300+ to buy another one?
I'd have a little more faith in these things if they were primarily 1394/USB disks with firmware. Put MP3s and playlists on them, voila, it will play them, and did not have a closed interface with proprietary software that the vendor may or may not decide to support or fix, rendering an otherwise functional machine worthless.
Using the iPod for Mac on a PC, or using the iPod for Windows on a Mac, is not supported by Apple
This point needs to be emphasid a lot, because it is the key issue here. As far as I know, Apple has had this policy for all iPods since day one. So who's to blame, Apple for saying "use a Mac iPod on a Mac, and use a PC iPod on a PC", or the user who didn't listen and did what he wanted? Yes, it stinks that some people used to do this without problems, and now they're not so lucky. But the bottom line is that nobody should ever have used a Mac iPod on a PC in the first place.
What is the difference between a Mac and Windows ipod? Why can't they use the same communications protocol? It's not like the Mac or PC actually reads the ipod hard disk.
cpeterso
This is easy, it makes a great story! User X called their support and expected them to say "Sure, we'll ship you a new one in express mail". That is just not how it works. If they said that to every end-user calling, they would be bankrupt for a long time.
Instead, they have to stay firm at the lower level while the problem escalates the hierarchy and gets finally solved. That's life, but the slashdot editors don't seem to realize it. If one guy at the Apple support was in a bad mood and trash talked a customer, you immediately have a story on the front page: "Apple says 'Fuck You' To All Customers".
Write boring code, not shiny code!
How does a thread with 11 posts become generalized on Slashdot as iTunes for the PC is breaking all 5gb iPods?
There is something known as journalistic integrity, one piece of which involves not misrepresenting or overstating a single piece of information.
There's a large step between "not supported" and "use the windows itunes and say hello to your new 400$ paperweight". The simple fact that it rendered the ipod useless for music playback, and that it put the device in a non-reversible state is a big issue.
One of two things should have happened :
A: Ipod should not have let programs do something to damage it or
B: Software should detect if it's an older Ipod and not do whatever it did to screw it up.
In your analogy, if we put the VW dashboard back and find out that the motor was toasted by having a different dashboard, there's a serious fault in the design of the VW.
Same with the ipod. (bye bye Karma)
I think a better comparison is plugging a 120 V device into a 220 V socket. But its still the person's fault doing the plugging, not the maker of the deivce or the socket.
How does a well-written OS let a music playing app crash it on bootup?
Windows isn't exactly Apple's speciality after all.
If this were the case, then what the fuck are Apple doing by releasing Windows software in the first place? This must be the lamest excuse I've ever heard for a poor product. C'mon, Apple isn't some $10 start-up run by preteens; it's a large, experienced software/hardware company, and they shouldn't be screwing things like this up. If MS were shown this much latitude, people would be screaming blue murder.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
The simple solution is to back up the data from the iPod, and format it using Apple's software updater on their website.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120 236
Then start over with iTunes. Should work. The only reason its failing is because they initially tried getting it to work with a file system hack (Xplay). Using the PC updater above for iPod 1.3 will make the iPod into a PC 5 GB or 10 GB or 20 GB iPod ( the hardware is absolutely the same be it PC or Mac compatible, just the software is different ) and Windows iTunes will work properly with it.
Windows is quite a decent OS. I wouldn't diss it so much. Now, their business practices are a different story, but I wouldn't diss the product too much. Nobody made an OS yet that runs on the same range of hardware and has the same capabilities.
You're joking me. The guy trying to use the iPod in an unsupported manner. The original 5GB iPod works perfectly with Windows iTunes when formatted as a Windows iPod. I should know, I have one and am using it this way. Is GM crapping on their customers because they don't provide support for you filling a gasoline car with diesel?
Random is the New Order.
of the LG/Linux incident?
/me will watch for 5GB iPods to proliferate on ebay in the next month. Yay me!
What does it mean to wake out of a dream
and be wearing someone else's shorts?
BNL, Born on a Pirate Ship (1998)
-1, Troll?
WTF?!?!?
You are "Insightful" if you bash MS, "Interesting" or "Informative" if you like Linux or Apple, and "Troll" If you like Windows?!?!
Come on...
Ok. let me get this straight. So you're using software (Xplay) that's completely unsupported by Apple, and in fact, has nothing to do with Apple, in order to use a product (the 5gb iPod) which specifically was sold as being Mac-only, on a Windows machine.
It didn't work. It broke your iPod. Now you want Apple to fix it. You're mad because they won't.
Every product is sold with instructions detailing how it is to be used. You did not follow the instructions. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It's not like you didn't *know* that using that version of the iPod with Windows was unsupported, you just chose to ignore the fact.
Interesting.
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
I dunno, trying to capture that 80% of the home PC market still dominated by Windows?
This must be the lamest excuse I've ever heard for a poor product. C'mon, Apple isn't some $10 start-up run by preteens; it's a large, experienced software/hardware company, and they shouldn't be screwing things like this up. If MS were shown this much latitude, people would be screaming blue murder.
People *are* screaming blue murder... but usually for more interesting stuff than MS saying "We're not supporting that function that it says on the box we don't support." More like, "We're not supporting the ability to back up your OS install."
Come on, the device wasn't supposed to work on Windows, the guy got it working, then he used different software and it didn't work anymore. Just for those tracks, of course... still apparently works fine for everything else. How can you hold the vendor responsible for *this*?
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
Apple does not now, nor has it ever supported using Xplay. These problems are the sort of things you have to learn to accept if you are going to hack around on your own. Nothing wrong with that, just don't come complaining to apple when your ipod doesn't work anymore.
Sig removed because it was obnoxious
But surely that's not the issue
Surely Apple itself, being the maker of the iPod was perfectly aware that old iPods are Mac-only, meaning that iTunes on Windows should just say "sorry, this iPod is not compatible with iTunes for Windows" rather than just ignoring that fact and breaking the thing.
Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
"When I called Apple, they stated that they simply don't support the use of the older Mac iPods on PC's and are not responsible, even though they admit that it was their own software that caused this."
Or there's:
"but when we installed iTunes for the PC the iPod stopped working"
Now we don't even bother reading the article posted directly above our replies? He's saying second-party software worked perfectly (Xplay) but when he installed Apples own iTunes software the players stopped working. Bad Apple.
Quack, quack.
I call shenanigans (see SouthPark). Now I don't want to sound like too much of a linux zealot, and technically that is true. No other Operating system runs on the exact same set of hardware and has the exact same capabilities. But that doesn't mean the Windows is the best OS.
As far as the hardware goes, Windows only runs on x86 processors (with the exception of some old NTs, which ran on one other thing, which I don't remember). Now Linux may not support all of the hardware that Windows supports but: "Linux was first developed for 32-bit x86-based PCs (386 or higher). These days it also runs on (at least) the Compaq Alpha AXP, Sun SPARC and UltraSPARC, Motorola 68000, PowerPC, PowerPC64, ARM, Hitachi SuperH, IBM S/390, MIPS, HP PA-RISC, Intel IA-64, DEC VAX, AMD x86-64 and CRIS architectures." Quoted from the What is Linux? section of kernel.org.
It is also true that Linux, as an OS, doesn't have nearly as many capabilities as Windows. Windows, the Operating System, has a web browser, a media player, an E-mail client... - wasn't there some lawsuit about this, antitrust something or other? But, with the help of X windows, KDE, Mozilla... (replace any of those with your favorites), Linux can do as much as Windows, and more.
This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
I very much doubt that any version of iTunes for windows will "break" a Windows version of the ipod. These older ipods were labeled as mac-only, and a third party wrote a software fix to get them to talk to each other.
Apple built the hardware, labeled it as mac only. You hooked it up to a PC using somebody else's software. Why exactly should apple provide any support whatsoever to this problem? That's why companies provide specifications-- if your hardware doesn't meet specs, don't come running to them. Your PC doesn't meet the spec of being a Mac, so why complain?
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
I learned long ago that Apple will abandon their loyal customers at the drop of a hat. I've seen it over and over.
The most recent incident was with a friend who is a Mac user. He upgraded the software on the Mac and then discovered that his Apple printer would not work. When he contacted Apple they told him they don't support that printer anymore. Their solution...buy a new printer.
I'm not a Microsoft fan either but at least they have a fair track record for application backward compatibility. (I'm ignoring their file compatibility issues between versions here.)
But, did you buy the Sonicare to clean your dogs' teeth, and were able to do so just fine with a third-party toothbrush head, but when Philips started marketing a new toothbrush head designed to work with a newer version of your Sonicare that was made for pooch hygiene, you got *that* and expected it to work with your existing Sonicare? And then got it replaced when the new toothbrush head, which was made for a different version of the product, didn't work with your toothbrush?
Because, that would be a little closer to the current situation...
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
It happens often enough and the solution, cleaning the entire engine is simple enough. They are certainly not going to tell you to fuck off. Just that this doesn't fall under warranty and that the repair costs are on your account. But I am willing to bet a 100 dollars that if you call GM customer support and tell them that you put diesel into a gasoline car they will politly tell you how to get it fixed and they will not snigger until they go for their lunchbreak.
So apple should have some kind of way to reset their ipods to the factory default, I know my nomad has. Simply give out how to do this and then don't do what you did wrong again.
If Apple really told their customer to get stuffed then they did bad. (not that I think they did considering some other posts but owning neither an apple/ipod/itunes/_or_indeed_right_at_this_moment_ a_windows I feel I can't comment)
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I don't work for Apple, and I only "switched" to Apple in the last couple years (OSX).. I don't own Apple stock, and really the only incentive I have for Apple to do better is so that there is more Apple support in the general marketplace.
having said that, and noting that I *like* my Apple products - I have to cry foul in some of your comments.
FireWire hard drives self destruct
This was more a FW800 firmware issue than an Apple issue. The actual problem requires two rare conditions to exist, and in a laboratory was extremely hard to duplicate - in fact, one drive manufacturer could not do so. But the bridge manufacturers had to make updated firmware to fix their problems. There are too many discussions on this already, so I won't go into it too much - but this was not strictly an Apple issue, just sadly hit Apple square in the nuts...(Roshambo ya for it...)
Minimal 3rd party video card support
How on earth is this Apple's fault? I have TONS of third party accessories from my PC days that will NEVER be supported on the Mac, and I have many that will not even be supported on any version of windows made in the last 5 years or years to come! The vendors are responsible for that support, not Apple. Even Microsoft has this problem...
Other misc networking problems
That is too vague and inspecific. All computers can suffer from "misc networking problems". This just doesn't belong unless you can be specific.
Dozens of less debilitating problems, unusable features, and long-standing unfixed bugs.
Again vague and inspecific. Name one computer platform that doesn't have long-standing unfixed bugs. Heck, I am a developer and I have systems in production that have long-standing well documented bugs. What "unusable features" are you talking about? And unusable to whom? I would wager that "dozens" of problems existing in millions of lines of code being used by millions of people is a pretty good ratio. Have YOU developed anything with ZERO bugs or ZERO problems, and then made it work on an infinite combination of configurations?
10.2.8 Initial release: Complete fiasco -- update pulled
This was NOT a Complete fiasco. It simply caused problems on an extremely small number of Apple's machines. Could the quality control have been a bit better? Perhaps. But for the extreme vast majority the update was smooth and problem free. Apple promptly recognized the problem and made the requisite repairs. How is that a "complete fiasco"?
iTunes for Windows: Doesn't work with 1st generation iPods
Should it? I am not so sure. Times move on. Weren't the original iPods supposed to be Mac only anyway? When did the Windows iPod debut? My CAR has a warranty that EXPIRES - why should Apple support their products indefinitely? If my car has a defect outside of the warranty period, I either have to live with it or pay for the repairs (except in the rare case where the manufacturer was found by a court to be negligent or fraudulent - but Apple is held to the same standard anyway, see the OSX on G3 case recently). GET OVER IT PEOPLE, at some point in time your technology will become obsolete and you will either have to continue to use it as originally specified - or buy new stuff. My VCR doesn't work with DVDs, should I complain? My old Nintendo RF-Out doesn't work with my new HDTV without a third party adapter, should Nintendo replace it?
For crying out loud. Apple is a business. They are human just like anyone else. They have to make money just like any other business. They can't support every whiny user forever. At some point in time, they have to move on. I don't claim to know what a good cutoff time is - but don't think Apple loves you like your mother - because they don't. They just want you to buy a computer and iPod or two.. That's all.
But their stuff is better than most, and I like it. If you think Apple is hard on customers - try cellular phone companies. Now THEY suck.... Hehe, or Cable TV... Don't even get me started down THAT path...
This is necessary because Windows Firewire ports are usually non-standard.
As others have stated, only a troll could have invented the term 'Windows Firewire'; if anything, Apple would have a higher chance of having a non-standard port, given how their systems are proprietary. (An example would be their non-standard S-Video port.)
Expecting a Mac iPod to work with Windows is silly....
Guess what? The Mac iPod _did_ work with Windows through third party software. It's Apple's shitty windows programmars that broke it.
There are programs that allow Mac-only iPods to work on Windows, and other OSes. There is no excuse for iTunes not being able to do the same. And no, it's not about "just working" on a Mac - it's about "just working" with iTunes, whatever OS Apple decides to port it to.
There is a perfectly good excuse. Apple chose not to include this feature. Why? I dunno, maybe it would have been a good one to include. But maybe it caused other problems with the software, or their UI guys said it would just confuse people who couldn't use their old, out-of-the-box Mac iPod software on their Windows machine.
If you want to say "Hey, this is a feature Apple should have included," go ahead, but don't act like it's a bug that they didn't.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
It isn't even broken though. The iPod is fine. It appears to simply be refusing to play DRM'd songs. I'd guess that's because the NON-APPLE, THIRD PARTY, UNSUPPORTED drivers don't support DRM? Not Apple's fault, and not their responsibility to fix it. The box says it works on Macs only.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Well, actually, YES. If you put diesel into your car when it doesn't use diesel, you are screwed. Most likely they will void your warranty and any repairs will be YOUR responsibility.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Now, their business practices are a different story, but I wouldn't diss the product too much. Nobody made an OS yet that runs on the same range of hardware and has the same capabilities.
:)
I would suggest that it is Microsoft's business practices that have produced an OS whose market dominance, resulting from said business practices, has dictated much of what is produced in terms of hardware (and associated drivers) and capabilites.
In other words, there's nothing superior about the OS per se, rather Windows's dominance comes directly from the practices of an incredibly monopolistic, predatory and lawbreaking company who tries (and generally succeeds) at ramming their product down everyone's throats.
But that's just my opinion!
The iPod has 32mb of ram.
b ums->Songs
Into that ram it loads an index, a database, containing all the song information on all the songs: The metadata, the ID3 information, the playcounts, the volume and EQ settings, the ratings, the notes, the extra album info, comments, everything.
It is *because* of this file, this index, this database, that the iPod has a UI par exellance, the most usable, friendly, fast, and efficient UI on any MP3 player.
All iTunes does, in copying music to your iPod, is create a bunch of *normal* folders (which the Finder can do) onto the iPod, and copy the iTunes generated (no even encrypted!) database file onto the iPod (which the Finder can do as well). It's all regular HFS+ or FAT32 files, no voodoo, no magic.
So no extra software is necessary to make the songs playable, but extra software is necessary to make the iPod usable.
If this doesn't make sense, download iTunes, import several thousand songs into it, and use it (ID3 tags, metadata, and everything) for a week. This is *exactly* how the iPod works. Without that very same data used in iTunes, the iPod would be useless (try manually navigating 8.000 songs in a flat, unstructured, list!). iTunes generates several hierarchies through which you can navigate your iPod:
Artists->Songs
Albums->Songs
Songs
Genre->Al
Composers->Songs
Playlists->Songs
All iTunes does is *generate* those structures. You need *something* to generate those structures. Of course, the standard response to the iTunes/iPod naysayer is "I want to create my own genre/artist/album hierarchies in The Finder/Explorer damn it!"
Yeah, feel free, I guess. Me, I enjoy letting iTunes do it for me, and all I have to do is 'click, click, scroll, click' and enjoy.
GPL Deconstructed
User-friendly or no, it is clearly labeled as mac-only. I would never take such a chance. How is it a bug in iTunes? Is it your cd-rw drives responsibility to tell you your bread is done toasting? No. Then why should it be iTunes responsibility to tell you that you can't use incompatible hardware? "Not supported" means may or may not work, take your chances and whatever happens, you are on your own, not "blame us if you hose your iPod when you knew damn well it may or may not work."
I hate sigs.
Back when I was 12 or 13, I remember this guy, a Kirby vacuum salesman, was in our house cleaning a carpet coated in dog-vomit. (Which he did for free, because he thought my mother would rather have clean rugs than go for a cruise in the Bahamas. How wrong, how wrong....) He noticed that my dad had a CD player, and he asked, "so, you like records or CDs better?" My dad responded, "CDs don't get as scratchy, they don't get warped, and they sound crisper and clearer than records." Mr. Kirby wasn't fazed, and proceeded to talk at length about the "warmth" and "live feeling" of records, as opposed to the "lifeless" digital CD format. Here's the thing: the warmth you hear on records (and analogue tape) is controlled distortion. It sounds warmer because it's scraping off the higher-end sounds, and building up the lows and mids. It's less accurate than digital sounds, since it represents sounds less accurately across the spectrum.
/exact/ location you want, and you'll see why records are better. Just don't think they produce sound more accurately than digital recordings, particularly the 96khz/64bit digital sampling we've got now.
True, a PURE analogue sound recording will be perfectly accurate to the original sounds, but the only analogue setup that is that perfect is the setup involving the performers, the air in the room, and your eardrums.
Keep in mind, I'm a DJ. I know what records can do, and why they're probably still the best for DJing. Try to back-spin a CD without digital processing, or move the laser in a CD player from one point to the
Again, poor driver support, right?
The iPod is a drive... it's formatted in the file system appropriate to the machine it's used on. Has nothing to do with the drivers or ports.
Perhaps I look at this somewhat differently, as a firmware engineer (y'know, one of the guys who writes drivers for a living), but I still call it a driver issue.
Rather than forcing users to reformat their iPods as either FAT32 or HFS, Apple could have taken the simple step of writing an Windows driver to add HFS support. No fuss, no muss, complete interoperability.
So considering that, I stand by my point, that this entire issue (regardless of which angle you approach it from) boils down to poor drivers. Had Apple done the job correctly, we would not currently need to have this discussion at all.
There's a good reason for that. 10 years ago, there -wasn't- any comercially available digital cameras, high-resolution scanners, or photo quality color printers. What little there was was well over the head of all but the richest folks. It was all industrial and damned expensive. Your logic is flawed.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
The problem here is that Apple's software "destroyed" their own hardware. To say "older iPods are not supported" implies to me that "the software won't work properly on older iPods" not "your hardware will be irretrievably damaged". If I try to install a Microsoft product on a platform that's "not supported", it just won't install, and will usually give me a message that will tell me why. What it won't do is render my computer unusable and "unfixable". A company that cares about its customer base will try to anticipate "bad" things that its customers will try to do and put in safeguards, -- especially if the potential harm will be great. Not only do I believe that Apple should have forseen that people would try to use their windows PCs with older iPods, they must have known that they would. One of the first things that occurred after the iPod was created, was that software appeared that would allow it to be used with Windows. If someone was used to using this third-party software, it's easy to see that, being used to using the iPod with their PC, they wouldn't expect Apple's own Windows software to damage their hardware. As to "Apple bashing", "Microsoft bashing" or "Linux bashing" -- this is all silly. I own Linux boxes, Macintoshes and Windows systems. I love them all. I have to say, though, that the Linux commmunity and the Microsoft people give much better support than Apple [ of course you have to pay for Microsoft and Apple support ]. Microsoft is very good at anticipating the "stupid things" people will do with their systems, which is one of the reasons their products are so widely used. The Linux community also responds well to "stupidity" (Linux experts will be harsh in telling you why you're stupid, but they'll fix your problem). The complaint with Apple is that their attitude is "you should've known that our software would destroy any of our hardware that we don't support, so f**k off." That attitude more than anything else is what has people annoyed. This is not the way to get people to buy Macs, and is a sure way to get people to dump their iPods for some other "player".
This is exactly why slashdot is fucked up. Flamebait != saying something that might be offensive. It's saying something that is extremely, obviously, and deliberately offensive. If someone's choice of words is poor or otherwise not to your liking, the idea is not to mod it up.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.