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iTunes for Windows Breaking Older iPods
evil_liam asks: "In our office we've been running an older 5gb iPod with both Macs and PC's (using Xplay), but when we installed iTunes for the PC the iPod stopped working. Songs and playlists transfer over fine, and you can see them and play them in iTunes, but you can't listen to them on the iPod, itself. It shows the song details and so forth, but skips through the tracks, playing 0 seconds of each one until it finishes. This only applies to tracks added since iTunes was installed. No amount of reformatting, or rolling back firmware seems to work. When I called Apple, they stated that they simply don't support the use of the older Mac iPods on PC's and are not responsible, even though they admit that it was their own software that caused this. We're not alone, see this thread at Apple.
I'm not quite suggesting that this was deliberate, but they are aware of it and don't seem to care." Does anyone have ideas on possible fixes for the afflicted iPods?
Buy a newer iPod.
...that the iTunes store was a way to sell more iPods. Now we see what they meant! :)
Penny Arcade
eBay it and get a walkman. =P
But from talking to my Mac using friends, this is SOP for Apple. Try running iTunes on some older version of MacOS... probably won't work. Or try installing OSX on older hardware, same issue. They don't stick with older hardware or software.
Question 7: I have both a Mac and a PC. Will my iPod work on both?
Answer: No, not at the same time. iPod is configured for either Mac or PC. You can use the iPod Software Updater utility to restore iPod to work with a Mac or a PC (depending on which version of the utility you use). See technical document 60983, "iPod: How to Restore" for more information.
Note: Using the iPod for Mac on a PC, or using the iPod for Windows on a Mac, is not supported by Apple.
Question 8: Can I use an iPod formatted for Mac on a PC, or an iPod formatted for Windows on a Mac?
Answer: It is not possible to use an iPod formatted for Mac with Windows. This is because Windows does not support the HFS Plus file system and therefore will not see the drive.
You can convert an iPod formatted for Windows into an iPod for Mac by using the iPod for Mac Software Updater on the Apple website. Note that once it is reformatted, it will only work with Macs. You need Mac OS 9.2 or Mac OS X 10.1 or later to reformat an iPod for Windows into an iPod for Mac.
Note: Using the iPod for Mac on a PC, or using the iPod for Windows on a Mac, is not supported by Apple.
After all this is a MAC ipod on a WINDOWS machine. They never intended this particular ipod to be used on a windows machine. So why should they support the use of it? Yes subsequent ipods are designed to be for windows, but the one in question was not. Therefore, I do not see what anyone can expect of them. It would be nice if this mac designed product worked with their later newer windows designed product, but I do not see them under any obligation to do so.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Also in the linked discussion board, it seems like multiple problems are being reported as a single problem. For example, one guy reverted to old iPod software and still had problems. Another guy has problems only with music downloaded from iTunes. Another guy only has problems with CDs he ripped.
Every consumer device has issues and flaming mad customers. The real question is, is the problem widespread. The other question is, why has Cliff posted three "an Apple consumer is having a problem" articles in the last couple of days (the first two seemed to be pretty damn stupid and non-widespread to me).
Call tech support again. I've always found them quite helpful (at least the AppleCare ones) when i've had hardware issues. Or take it to an Apple Store, heard good things about them ebing willing to bend over backwards to help out.
Mod point free since 2001
Is this really worth posting to the Slashdot home page? I'm an Apple user, and even to me this seems to be something worthy of posting to the MacNN/ArsTechnica forums, but not to the slashdot home page.
Slashdot is not tech support.
- Vincit qui patitur.
Of the 8 posts on apple's site, most of them seem to think that Apple has done this intentionally. Let's be clear--Apple has NOTHING to gain by pissing off the Windows user base. Their entire strategy hinges on positive experience with Apple products that encourages people to switch and have that experience with every interaction. I would be surprised if the actual interactions with Apple have been all that negative (yes...I'm saying that some people may be aggrevated and exaggerating). My interactions with Apple (as a Mac user) have always been reasonably positive, whether this be for sales, technical support or developer relations.
It's silly to think they're trying to sabatoge the Windows base. And if some phone rep blew it...well, that's clearly a problem but I just don't see this as anything more than one person's screw up.
---- Please be nice in case my Slashdot karma ~= my real life karma.
What part of "not supported" was not understood? I am sure that Apple will do something to rectify the situation. Hope they had a backup of their music. Wait a second, a MAC-only 5GB IPOD? Not a "Mac-only unless running iTunes on a PC running Windows, then it is ok" iPod. Why does it not surprise me that running a first-generation Mac-only IPOD on a Windows machine causes problems? Maybe the part about it being "mac-only", and "not supported on PC", as well as being "mac-only". (The repition was purely intentional). This seems to be the user's fault, not Apple's. So if I put a BMW dashboard into a VW, will I be able to get mad when it does not work. All I am saying is do not rush to blame Apple on this one, this seems to be a PICNIC issue to me.
I hate sigs.
reformat your ipod from Mac to PC...
I had this problem with my Windows-formatted iPod after trying to mount it, exactly once, on a Mac. The cure is to restore it. It doesn't seem you do any permanent damage this way.
I ran into similar problems. I've also got an older 5gig Mac iPod that I was using with Xplay. After I suffered through the win2k bug which replaced core system files and forced me to do a win2k repair install, I got iTunes up and running well. After a short while though, when I plugged my iTunes into another machine and said 'yes' to the 'resync to this machine instead of the existing profile', it suddenly stopped working at all. I could bring up the iPod and use it as a drive, but no matter what I tried, iTunes would no longer recognize it. When I tried the latest windows flasher, it wouldn't see it either. What finally worked was to bring it to a PC that had never seen any iPods or iTunes before, and using that to flash the iPod back to factory defaults. That finally worked and when I brought it back to my original machine it suddenly saw it and initialized it without a hitch. I've been holding off on getting a new iPod for exactly the reason that Apple only cares about the first sale. Once they have your money you're dirt to them until the next time they want to sell the big ticket item. Luckily mine will keep going for a while longer now.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Using the iPod for Mac on a PC, or using the iPod for Windows on a Mac, is not supported by Apple
This point needs to be emphasid a lot, because it is the key issue here. As far as I know, Apple has had this policy for all iPods since day one. So who's to blame, Apple for saying "use a Mac iPod on a Mac, and use a PC iPod on a PC", or the user who didn't listen and did what he wanted? Yes, it stinks that some people used to do this without problems, and now they're not so lucky. But the bottom line is that nobody should ever have used a Mac iPod on a PC in the first place.
Join ADC
Bug Apple
Very little at Apple actually happens without a report in this "RadarWeb" bug tracking system of theirs. Think about it- this is how actual engineers have actual tasks/problems assigned to them, except maybe when Steve says "make it so".
Of course, as you're perfectly aware, you broke your Macintosh-only iPod while trying to use it on a PC, something you were rather clearly warned against doing when you bought the device. Did you complain to Sony because your Betamax tape player was screwed up by a VHS tape, too?
So why are you complaining about it on Slashdot, anyway ?
I'm willing to bet you could fix the problem by installing the most recent iPod firmware update, if you were willing to try that and weren't just trolling.
iPod's *are* just 1394 disks with firmware. You can plug it in and it looks just like a firewire harddrive. The iTunesDB file that the iPod uses to index files is proprietory, but is very simple and has been reverse-engineered by several programs (gnupod, ephpod, gtkpod, myPod, guipod, xplay, etc). The iPod OS gets the actual song information from ID3 tags. This is one major reason I bought the thing --- it has nearly perfect Linux support and no DRM.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
This is easy, it makes a great story! User X called their support and expected them to say "Sure, we'll ship you a new one in express mail". That is just not how it works. If they said that to every end-user calling, they would be bankrupt for a long time.
Instead, they have to stay firm at the lower level while the problem escalates the hierarchy and gets finally solved. That's life, but the slashdot editors don't seem to realize it. If one guy at the Apple support was in a bad mood and trash talked a customer, you immediately have a story on the front page: "Apple says 'Fuck You' To All Customers".
Write boring code, not shiny code!
I've had similar problems with a first gen iPod, and the same problem with multiple firewire drives, all related to the fact that Windows gays up firewire drives. All would every now and then have a "Delayed Write Failed" error pop up occasionally, then the drives would disappear as far as Windows was concerned. Turning off write caching in Device Manager has no effect.
I will say that I'm still using the same firewire chassis, only now with 7200 RPM instead of 5400 RPM drives, and haven't had the problem since. The iPod has a rather slow hard drive too, which could explain the similar issues.
Regardless, I'm inclined to believe Windows just has a shitty VFS or Firewire subsystem...
The simple solution is to back up the data from the iPod, and format it using Apple's software updater on their website.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120 236
Then start over with iTunes. Should work. The only reason its failing is because they initially tried getting it to work with a file system hack (Xplay). Using the PC updater above for iPod 1.3 will make the iPod into a PC 5 GB or 10 GB or 20 GB iPod ( the hardware is absolutely the same be it PC or Mac compatible, just the software is different ) and Windows iTunes will work properly with it.
Would somebody please tell me why they can't make a filesystem (or filesystem family) that preserves the basic functionality common to all filesystems but supports all the bells and whistles (resource forks, metainfo, etc.) needed to keep the various operating systems happy and can therefore be used with multiple machines with different OSs without jumping through hoops? I'm not saying every machine should use the same FS, I'm just saying there should be a basic standard that allows full functionality for any one OS and basic functionality for any given OS. And if there is one, why isn't anyone using it? It's not like this is an unusual issue - (CD/DVD)(+/-)(RW)s, floppy/zip disks, and portable drives of all kinds have had this problem for as long as I can remember. Why should finding/reading/writing/indexing a string of bits or grouping a bunch of files in a heirarchy readable to any machine be so troublesome?
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
About the only thing that can be laid on Apple's feet is that iTunes should refuse to attempt to connect to the iPod in question. Nothing reported suggests that the iPod doesn't still work with the Mac, which is all it was sold to do. In fact it specifically says do NOT use it with Windows. XPlay is an unsupported hack, so as far as Apple is concerned the iPod in question never worked with Windows, so the fact that it still doesn't now really isn't an issue.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
You're joking me. The guy trying to use the iPod in an unsupported manner. The original 5GB iPod works perfectly with Windows iTunes when formatted as a Windows iPod. I should know, I have one and am using it this way. Is GM crapping on their customers because they don't provide support for you filling a gasoline car with diesel?
Random is the New Order.
/me will watch for 5GB iPods to proliferate on ebay in the next month. Yay me!
What does it mean to wake out of a dream
and be wearing someone else's shorts?
BNL, Born on a Pirate Ship (1998)
Ok. let me get this straight. So you're using software (Xplay) that's completely unsupported by Apple, and in fact, has nothing to do with Apple, in order to use a product (the 5gb iPod) which specifically was sold as being Mac-only, on a Windows machine.
It didn't work. It broke your iPod. Now you want Apple to fix it. You're mad because they won't.
Every product is sold with instructions detailing how it is to be used. You did not follow the instructions. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It's not like you didn't *know* that using that version of the iPod with Windows was unsupported, you just chose to ignore the fact.
Interesting.
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
Regardless of what Apple may have claimed since day one, generally getting something "for PC" or "For Mac" only meant which drivers it included. If you could connect it to the same type of port and run it driverless, you could use it on either. Ethernet-connected "Apple-only" PCL6 printer? Yeah, right, whatever, smoke s'more, Jobs.
Does anyone remember buying pre-formatted 3.5" floppy disks? They would say "for Mac" or "for Windows" on the box, right? Again, poor driver support, right?
The iPod is a drive... it's formatted in the file system appropriate to the machine it's used on. Has nothing to do with the drivers or ports. Sure, there's some software for the PC that will let you use your HFS+ formatted, first-generation iPod with it... iTunes isn't of this variety.
Even the newest iPods have to be formatted for Windows before they are used under Windows. But the included software does that for you now.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
Not quite true. An ISO-9660 CD-ROM works everywhere, and doesn't support much of anything. Add the Joilet extensions, and you've got a CD-ROM that supports the Microsoft metadata and long filenames, works everywhere, and looks funny on non-Joilet systems. Add the RockRidge extensions, and it'll support UNIX metadata and long filenames, work everywhere, and look funny on non-RockRidge systems. Make it an ISO/HFS hybrid, and it'll support Macintosh metadata and long filenames, and it won't even look particularly funny elsewhere. I don't know if it's possible to make a RockRidge/Joilet/HFS/ISO disc, but if it is, you'd have a CD-ROM that works everywhere, and will look funny everywhere.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
I very much doubt that any version of iTunes for windows will "break" a Windows version of the ipod. These older ipods were labeled as mac-only, and a third party wrote a software fix to get them to talk to each other.
Apple built the hardware, labeled it as mac only. You hooked it up to a PC using somebody else's software. Why exactly should apple provide any support whatsoever to this problem? That's why companies provide specifications-- if your hardware doesn't meet specs, don't come running to them. Your PC doesn't meet the spec of being a Mac, so why complain?
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Sure, if you felt like tipping the Apple Store guys $370.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
I don't work for Apple, and I only "switched" to Apple in the last couple years (OSX).. I don't own Apple stock, and really the only incentive I have for Apple to do better is so that there is more Apple support in the general marketplace.
having said that, and noting that I *like* my Apple products - I have to cry foul in some of your comments.
FireWire hard drives self destruct
This was more a FW800 firmware issue than an Apple issue. The actual problem requires two rare conditions to exist, and in a laboratory was extremely hard to duplicate - in fact, one drive manufacturer could not do so. But the bridge manufacturers had to make updated firmware to fix their problems. There are too many discussions on this already, so I won't go into it too much - but this was not strictly an Apple issue, just sadly hit Apple square in the nuts...(Roshambo ya for it...)
Minimal 3rd party video card support
How on earth is this Apple's fault? I have TONS of third party accessories from my PC days that will NEVER be supported on the Mac, and I have many that will not even be supported on any version of windows made in the last 5 years or years to come! The vendors are responsible for that support, not Apple. Even Microsoft has this problem...
Other misc networking problems
That is too vague and inspecific. All computers can suffer from "misc networking problems". This just doesn't belong unless you can be specific.
Dozens of less debilitating problems, unusable features, and long-standing unfixed bugs.
Again vague and inspecific. Name one computer platform that doesn't have long-standing unfixed bugs. Heck, I am a developer and I have systems in production that have long-standing well documented bugs. What "unusable features" are you talking about? And unusable to whom? I would wager that "dozens" of problems existing in millions of lines of code being used by millions of people is a pretty good ratio. Have YOU developed anything with ZERO bugs or ZERO problems, and then made it work on an infinite combination of configurations?
10.2.8 Initial release: Complete fiasco -- update pulled
This was NOT a Complete fiasco. It simply caused problems on an extremely small number of Apple's machines. Could the quality control have been a bit better? Perhaps. But for the extreme vast majority the update was smooth and problem free. Apple promptly recognized the problem and made the requisite repairs. How is that a "complete fiasco"?
iTunes for Windows: Doesn't work with 1st generation iPods
Should it? I am not so sure. Times move on. Weren't the original iPods supposed to be Mac only anyway? When did the Windows iPod debut? My CAR has a warranty that EXPIRES - why should Apple support their products indefinitely? If my car has a defect outside of the warranty period, I either have to live with it or pay for the repairs (except in the rare case where the manufacturer was found by a court to be negligent or fraudulent - but Apple is held to the same standard anyway, see the OSX on G3 case recently). GET OVER IT PEOPLE, at some point in time your technology will become obsolete and you will either have to continue to use it as originally specified - or buy new stuff. My VCR doesn't work with DVDs, should I complain? My old Nintendo RF-Out doesn't work with my new HDTV without a third party adapter, should Nintendo replace it?
For crying out loud. Apple is a business. They are human just like anyone else. They have to make money just like any other business. They can't support every whiny user forever. At some point in time, they have to move on. I don't claim to know what a good cutoff time is - but don't think Apple loves you like your mother - because they don't. They just want you to buy a computer and iPod or two.. That's all.
But their stuff is better than most, and I like it. If you think Apple is hard on customers - try cellular phone companies. Now THEY suck.... Hehe, or Cable TV... Don't even get me started down THAT path...
There are programs that allow Mac-only iPods to work on Windows, and other OSes. There is no excuse for iTunes not being able to do the same. And no, it's not about "just working" on a Mac - it's about "just working" with iTunes, whatever OS Apple decides to port it to.
There is a perfectly good excuse. Apple chose not to include this feature. Why? I dunno, maybe it would have been a good one to include. But maybe it caused other problems with the software, or their UI guys said it would just confuse people who couldn't use their old, out-of-the-box Mac iPod software on their Windows machine.
If you want to say "Hey, this is a feature Apple should have included," go ahead, but don't act like it's a bug that they didn't.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
It isn't even broken though. The iPod is fine. It appears to simply be refusing to play DRM'd songs. I'd guess that's because the NON-APPLE, THIRD PARTY, UNSUPPORTED drivers don't support DRM? Not Apple's fault, and not their responsibility to fix it. The box says it works on Macs only.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
The iPod has 32mb of ram.
b ums->Songs
Into that ram it loads an index, a database, containing all the song information on all the songs: The metadata, the ID3 information, the playcounts, the volume and EQ settings, the ratings, the notes, the extra album info, comments, everything.
It is *because* of this file, this index, this database, that the iPod has a UI par exellance, the most usable, friendly, fast, and efficient UI on any MP3 player.
All iTunes does, in copying music to your iPod, is create a bunch of *normal* folders (which the Finder can do) onto the iPod, and copy the iTunes generated (no even encrypted!) database file onto the iPod (which the Finder can do as well). It's all regular HFS+ or FAT32 files, no voodoo, no magic.
So no extra software is necessary to make the songs playable, but extra software is necessary to make the iPod usable.
If this doesn't make sense, download iTunes, import several thousand songs into it, and use it (ID3 tags, metadata, and everything) for a week. This is *exactly* how the iPod works. Without that very same data used in iTunes, the iPod would be useless (try manually navigating 8.000 songs in a flat, unstructured, list!). iTunes generates several hierarchies through which you can navigate your iPod:
Artists->Songs
Albums->Songs
Songs
Genre->Al
Composers->Songs
Playlists->Songs
All iTunes does is *generate* those structures. You need *something* to generate those structures. Of course, the standard response to the iTunes/iPod naysayer is "I want to create my own genre/artist/album hierarchies in The Finder/Explorer damn it!"
Yeah, feel free, I guess. Me, I enjoy letting iTunes do it for me, and all I have to do is 'click, click, scroll, click' and enjoy.
GPL Deconstructed
The parent used "gay" as a synonym for "broken." THAT's flamebait. I riff a lighthearted joke to call it out, and I get modded flamebait?
Wait a sec... Apple hardware has impeccable aesthetics, the logo has a rainbo... oh, crap. If I read it that way I'd have modded myself a troll.