Familiar Distribution for iPAQ Handhelds

Russ Nelson writes "The Handhelds.org project has released Familiar 0.7.2, a Linux-based firmware replacement for HP iPAQ handhelds. New to this release is support for the h5400 and h5500, which have built-in wlan interfaces. Both GPE (gtk/X) and Opie (Qt) are at or past version 1.0, and we now have a Python-gtk distribution called 'pypaq'. Why waste that commute time playing Tetris when you could be hacking on Python code?"

Comments

Lost Functionality

[dirkdidit]

I have the iPaq 5450 and that model comes with a biometric fingerprint scanner. I've noticed that this distro doesn't explicitly say it has support for the scanner. Does anybody know if it does indeed support it?

I use a fingerprint as one of my passwords and I'd like to try this distro out but if it means losing the scanner capability,then I'm hesitant.

Re:Lost Functionality

[Chundra]

Indeed it does! But if you're that worried about people accessing your data, I would like to recommend using a testicle print instead. That way you can usually be sure of absolute privacy, unless you're like me and wear crotchless pants with no underwear.

Cheers!

Re:Lost Functionality

[kotj.mf]

What if I want to buy one for my girlfriend, you insensitive clod???

I suppose she could use mine... I gave them to her a long time ago, anyway...

Re:Lost Functionality

[Chundra]

I wasn't trying to be funny at all. I was dead serious.

And to hell with karma.

CAUTION

[moreati]

TThis link points to telnet://67.37.26.36 which opens to a linux shell at some American ISP, the connection may be logged somewhere and seen as 'questionable activity'.

Welcome to goat.cx TNG. That'll teach me to browse at -1.

Re:CAUTION

[phlegm]

Plus it's running under vmware

Is anyone running

[smittyoneeach]

Leo on this? That would be a killer app.
But do you really need to run Linux for that, or can you just install Python on a stock iPaq?

Zodiac?

[Cpt_Kirks]

How about a port to the new Zodiac?

Similar hardware, better controls, better video, sound and screen.

Re:Zodiac?

[Cpt_Kirks]

Yeah, the reason is the whole thing was originally set up and sponsored by Compaq.

Both CPUs are ARM variants.

Why?

[DaFrog]

The majority of folks who buy an iPaq (me included) do it in order to have a portable version of their main PIM database (i.e., Outlook) - I do not see the advantage... I truly believe that we should stick with pretty-GUI stuff for the desk/palmtop (i.e., Windows) and use the stable stuff (i.e., *nix) in the back end. Just my views...

Re:Why?

[Joe Tie.]

I truly believe that we should stick with pretty-GUI stuff for the desk/palmtop (i.e., Windows) and use the stable stuff (i.e., *nix) in the back end.

I'll repeat your subject line, and ask, why? Why shouldn't I have my cake and eat it too?

Re:Why?

[Chess_the_cat]

Why shouldn't I have my cake and eat it too?

A common misquote. It should read: "...eat my cake and have it too." Anyone can have their cake and eat it. But it's wishful thinking to be able to eat it and yet still have it. What you have written is meaningless. The word ordering is essential.

Re:Why?

[Chundra]

Ah but you forget that once you've eaten it, you can have it again. Though it probably wouldn't look much like cake.

Re:Why?

[unixbob]

The answer is: because.

You are correct that most people who purchase a PDA "do it in order to have a portable version of their main PIM database (i.e., Outlook) ". Although I now have a Dell Axim, I used to have an iPaq 3600. The only reason I bought the iPaq was because of the familiar project (I upgraded from a Palm Pilot Professional purely for the reason of running Linux on a PDA). The only frustration with it was that I couldn't sync meetings + tasks + email with Outlook, which is why I kept reinstalling PocketPC on it. And then I got bored and reinstalled Linux on it. Got frustrated and put PocketPC on it. You get the idea.

The point is that running Linux on a PDA is just good geek fun. It's neat to ssh into your PDA. It's fun to hack it in a way that's not really possible with Pocket PC. Completely pointless as it kippers the personal organiser functionality of the unit - but good geek fun nonetheless

Re:Why?

[xwred1]

It's fun to hack it in a way that's not really possible with Pocket PC. Completely pointless as it kippers the personal organiser functionality of the unit - but good geek fun nonetheless

Did you look at the Opie or GPE screenshots?

I ran Familiar 0.6 on my old iPaq and it was perfectly fine for organizing. All graphical, had calendar apps and contacts and everything that PocketPC has. Comes with a better drawing app, has an apt-workalike with some nifty apps and games. Konqueror browses much better than IE also, imho.

Re:Why?

[Hatta]

The word ordering is essential.

Nah, "and" is associative.

Re:Why?

[antiMStroll]

"I truly believe that we should stick with pretty-GUI stuff for the desk/palmtop..."

Linux has pretty-GUI PDA stuff. You didn't follow the links? For my needs the Kompany-modified Sharp ROM for the SL-5500 syncs to work's Exchange servers just fine thanks, and still retains the Linux underpinnings to match my home network. This is no longer an either/or proposition.

Re:Why?

[djradon]

Actually, it is easy to sync Opie with Outlook, see the OpieSyncing wiki for details, but basically you just need Sharp's Intellisync, which works great for me.

And to answer "Why?" -- I can use unison to synch a mobile subset of my files with my handheld. I can run Samba on my ipaq to browse through its real filesystem. PocketPC's filesystem is essentially inaccessible without going through ActiveSync, which is horrible.

Re:Why?

[unixbob]

Yeah, I used both. Konqueror on the iPaq is massive. When I've only got 32M of RAM to use, which includes the RAM disk for all the OS binaries and Konqueror comes in @ ~ 6M then it's huge. Although I would concur that Konqueror for Qtopia is a much better browser than the horribly crippled PocketIE. Even dillo (the familiar browser) is more compatible. At the time Opie / Qtopia was the more mature environment, but my problem wasn't the quality of the email / contacts / calendar apps but their inability to sync with Outlook / Exchange which was the corporate groupware system imposed on me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down the efforts of the guys doing the work. It's superb. In the end though, I found that I could either have a good PDA, or a tiny portable UNIX server, but I couldn't have both. But that's only my experience. YMMV

Re:Why?

[EvilAlien]

You can sync all your PIM apps with Evolution thanks to Multisync . It works fairly well, and I was quite happy with my H3600, Familiar and Opie.. until today when I tried to upgrade to 0.7.2. Now my iPaq is dead and will probably need to be reflashed. Joy.

Re:Why?

[Sunda666]

amen to that.
Since I installed familiar/OPIE in my Ipaq I never looked back to PocketPC. I know, syncing is a bitch, but guess what, It never worked for me anyway since I run linux on all my computers and they would not sync to PocketPC eiter. OPIE is pretty nifty, has a theme that looks aqua-ish (liquid), and in my IPAQ all the hardware works perfectly (38xx series). But the biggest advantage linux has over pocketpc is the way they manage the storage. PocketPC stores all data and extra programs in RAM, so if you let the battery
discharge, you are fscked. Linux stores all data and programs in the Ipaq's flash memory or SD/MMC memory cards, so, when the battery
discharges, the only thing I lose is the clock, that needs to be readjusted. Pretty good if you ask me.

cheers.

Re:Why?

[Locutus]

Tell that to Microsoft and they'll say they want the server too. A pretty desktop is the easy part, it's doing on a secure and reliable platform that's the real "catch". So why not have your cake and eat it too by having a robust OS on the handheld?

BTW, just what do you think is running behind the scenes of your MS LookOut client? Most likely it's a Microsoft Exchange SERVER and it's NOT running on "stable stuff". But that's how MS wants it. They want it all. You do realize that if the PocketPC/WinCE business was on it's own, it would have died years ago. It's been losing money for MS for going on 7 years. And that's gotta tell you something about the product. IMHO.

Personally, I want a computing system that works and is cheap to deploy/use. THAT counts Microsoft out and GNU/Linux is what's in.

LoB

Wasting commute time

[claes]

Spending commute time playing tetris would be a waste for sure. But I prefer reading to "hacking". Programming is what I do when I get to work. I don't need to to it on my way to it and from it.

Re:Wasting commute time

[Abcd1234]

Well, that's great for you, but there are some people (myself included) who code at work, and then choose to work on personal projects in their spare time. These would, of course, be the same people who develop most of the open source software you've come to know and love. Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to hack on the occasional Python project while I commute... after all, it's difficult enough trying to find the free time to work on my own stuff...

Question

[justsomebody]

Does anybody know or has experience with iPAQ and Linux, I'm thinking about buying one, but I don't know one thing.

Does iPAQ with Linux supports GSM phone card (read as accesory drivers), so I could be able to access my servers trough ssh from anywhere?
If yes, then which model and which accesory.

Yes, I know that Windows do support that on iPAQ, but I really hate Windows too much, it's not an option, I'm not in suicidal mode.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I know that Windows do support that on iPAQ, but I really hate Windows too much, it's not an option, I'm not in suicidal mode

Interesting - while I don't really like desktop Windows, I find they've done a better job with PocketPCs. A lot of the issues with Windows tended to be with its underlying x86 DOS legacy stuff. That's not there with PocketPC, it just looks a bit like Windows and has the Windows brand, but it certainly isn't Windows under the bonnet. To be honest, it doesn't handle much like Windows, more like my old Palm but a heck of a lot faster.

So, yes, I don't like Windows much at all but I'm forced to use it and yes I really like my PocketPC and wouldn't give it up for any other device right now. I'm pretty baffled why anyone would want to remove a decent pen-optimised GUI that they've paid for and replace it with... a decent pen-optimised GUI with questions about support. If you're hating Windows as a religion then fine, but sometimes tarring everything with the same brush because of its name and source has its disadvantages, especially when you're looking for a solution to a problem...

Re:Question

[justsomebody]

I already given up on one, mostly because WIndows were slow as hell and mainly unusable for my needs. So far my notebook serves me just OK.

If I would really need that badly I would probably buy my self palm or visor, both have decent support for what I asked, but I fancy Linux and Linux it will be.

Reason: Thing that I would need beside decent ssh terminal access would be some monitoring deamons of mine which could be easily ported on any Linux environment, so I guess this takes PocketLinux in account too.

For me not having this option is not a bug, but having would be a feature

p.s. I don't mind spending up to 600$ if the thing is working as I need and as I want, so... I don't want Windows. I'm already forced to use them for some other jobs, which I haven't yet succed to move to Linux. And the fact that I still depend on my two G4s (for now, but number goes down with every year, and if Codewavers Office will prove it self as decent replacement there they go both of them, with one way ticket to trash) is bugging me too

Re:Question

[Sunda666]

If you want a *working* linux PDA get a 3870 off ebay, must be pretty cheap these days. All the hardware works out of the box (on the ipaq, dunno about PCMCIA/CF jacket stuff).
I use GSM/GPRS over IrDA to ssh to my servers on emergencies, but, to be frank, I'd rather use the notebook to do that. Typing on the on-screen keyboard is much slower than a real keyboard.

cheers.

still paying the m$ tax

[clarkie.mg]

Five years ago, I decided that I wont'ever pay for a m$ product. No ipaq for me as hp ships them with m$ operating system. I'll stick with sony clie.

Re:still paying the m$ tax

[Squidgee]

! But now, if you buy a Clie, you're paying the Palm O$ tax! ! What can you do?!

Re:still paying the m$ tax

[Type-R]

buy a Sharp Zaurus

Re:still paying the m$ tax

[Russ Nelson]

It's more expensive for HP to create another product with Linux pre-installed than to pay the M$ tax. Yes, I know that you'd be willing to pay that extra money -- you and twenty of your best friends. That doesn't make a market.

When it makes economic sense for HP to create a Linux handhelds product, they will. Boycotting the current product DOES NOT HELP.
-russ

Re:still paying the m$ tax

[chocotof]

If only they installed a better bootloader and not the one hard linked to pocket, then they would not need to preinstall and leave the choice to the user. W

Why Tetris and not Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Why waste that commute time playing Tetris when you could be hacking on Python code?

Because I'm not a nerd.

Familiar distribution?

[Sunlighter]

Did anyone else think this story was going to say something like "the distribution of iPAQ handhelds follows Zipf's law" or something?

I wonder what it would prove if the distribution did follow Zipf's law.

Re:Offtopic sort of, NX

[Anonymous Coward]

Implements image streaming algorythms to reduce the perceived latency


Tell me more about these "algorythms"

Good to do while commuting

[whiteranger99x]

Why waste that commute time playing Tetris when you could be hacking on Python code?"

Actually I'm doing that as I type...

goddamnit! fucking car tried to cut me off!! ...so anyway, I'm playing around with this thing, trying to.....shiiiiiiiiit!!!!

**CRASH!!**

Man, and I thought cell phones were dangerous to use while driving.

Ipaqs are good gadgets

[DrSkwid]

The linux loader also supports plan9 and Inferno

So why watse your life with Linux when you can use professional software.

oh, and inferno comes with tetris too

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[argent]

What does one do with Plan 9 on an iPaq?

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[DrSkwid]

read your email
vnc to a web browser :)
edit files

same as plan9 on a terminal

mouse chording is tricky with the stylus

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[argent]

*cough*

I mean, what's the point of using Plan 9 on a device that's disconnected most of the time so you don't get any of the advantages of Plan 9's distributed architecture?

I mean, I can read my email, vnc to a web browser, and edit files on just about any OS. What's Plan 9 get me that's particularly addtractive in this form factor?

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[DrSkwid]

oic, nothing, pretty useless in fact

that's why I use a 802.11b pcmcia card with it

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[F2F]

> What's Plan 9 get me that's particularly
> addtractive in this form factor?

the ability to share _exactly_the_same_ environment you have at home, at work and wherever else you may think of.

it's what grid computing dreams of, and Plan 9 delivers :) I've seen people use IPAQs to stream mp3's from a centralized Plan 9 server all over the university campus and even in town.

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[argent]

So basically if you're already using Plan 9 extensively, it's an extension of that environment. Fair enough.

How about Inferno? What can I do with Inferno that I can't do with WinCE or Linux? Wouldn't it make as much sense to run Inferno as a hosted OS under one or the other, to maximise your flexibility?

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[F2F]

Hosted Inferno is great for rapid prototyping of distributed cross-platform applications and the creation of grid-like environments on demand.

This sounds like too much buzzwordism, I know, but take a look at http://www.vitanuova.com/grid/ and, if you have IE, play around with their grid demos. From your web browser!

Now imagine doing the same thing to a cluster of thousands of Inferno CPU machines clustered together, effectively serving as an addition to your environment. And you don't even need to change your OS.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm preaching here, but this stuff just gets me excited, while being low-key enough that it never gets mentioned on slashdot, so we have only the cool guys interested in it :)

Re:Ipaqs are good gadgets

[argent]

Hosted Inferno, yes, but that's not what I was asking about.

What's the point of booting to *native* Inferno on an iPaq, when hosted Inferno does what you need?

Java on iPAQ

[BeerMilkshake]

We are doing a project in Java and the target is the iPAQ with Windoze. We found a commercial JVM that supports javacomm and Swing, though we are experiencing flaky behaviour.

I am not sure if it is the O/S or the JVM, but our code seems to work fine on Win2K.

Has anyone out there had good results getting the full JVM (1.4) working under Linux on this device? Should we switch?

Re:Java on iPAQ

[BeerMilkshake]

Thanks for the tip.

We looked at Savaje, but it only supports J2ME. We want full Java capability.

Update

[m00nun1t]

Not covered in the FAQ (that I saw...)

I thought to get OS upgrades to the IPAQ you needed to have it flashed by a dealer (funny flashing comments to follow no doubt) - it's not just a simple "run a program" arrangement. So how do you update to Familiar? Or am I talking rubbish here and it is simply a software update?

Re:Update

[robjs]

Updating to Familiar is a fairly simple process, if you visit the Faniliar Install Guide page at handhelds.org you can see that it's all very well documentated.

The installation takes the form of installing a bootstrap program from WinCE, this is documented as something really scary, but it isn't. You just need to read the instructions and follow them carefully. It's true that it could break your handheld, but there are a lot of safety nets built in. As for getting the actual distro on there, you place your iPaq in its cradle, select the install from serial link on the bootloader, you can then connect using minicom, or Hyperterminal if you're a Windows user. You send the required files through the serial link using ymodem (it takes about 20 minutes), the iPaq reboots, you calibrate the touchscreen and you're done. It's really very impressive!

I've got an iPaq 3630 with Buffalo Compact Flash Wireless card, I love it (although I've not used it for a while). The flexibility of having Linux on your handheld means that you can have something that already has the functionality of a laptop, just in smaller means, it's also really useful for wireless testing.

Re:Update

[DeepBlueDiver]

I thought to get OS upgrades to the IPAQ you needed to have it flashed by a dealer [...] Or am I talking rubbish here and it is simply a software update?

You don't need a dealer even for Windows ROM updates, since iPAQ ROM is flashable. It's like when you flash a new ROM version to your motherboard.

Instalation of diferent flavors of Familiar Linux is well covered in detailed instructions in many HowTo's and FAQs.

Re:Update

[Sterling_Aug]

I downloaded and installed the 0.7.2 release of GPE this morning. So far, so good.

I have a Compaq iPaq 3650 upgraded to 64MB RAM and a PCMCIA sleeve with a Linksys wireless NIC and an IBM 340MB microdrive used for file storage and flashing the updates. You simply copy the zip file to the microdrive (I also have an Ipaq 3970 still with WinCE 2002 on it) and then using the bootloader installed using hyperterminal (as mentioned before) you execute a flash loader that reads right from the microdrive (or CF memory card). The entire process now takes only a few minutes but the first time it is slow using hyperterminal to load the files. What is really nice is that you can reflash back to Windows CE if you ever want to. There are many copies of the ROM image available and lots of extra support in case of problems. The Wiki documentation does seem to be scattered and slightly unorganized (which makes sense since it is being written by lots of different people) but it did answer my questions so far.

Python has been there for nearly three years!

[Palin]

Python has been available in Familiar, and before that in the Compaq Linux for the iPAQ since I packaged it up nearly 3 years ago.

Mailing List Archive Link

Re:Python has been there for nearly three years!

[Russ Nelson]

Sure, and thanks! But in the meantime, all the nice X goodies have grown to the point where Python didn't fit. Plus we've standardized on gtk 2.0, and the older packages only supported gtk 1.2. Time marches on ....
-russ

Great but Pricee

[Martigan80]

This is great news for the linux front, but sad since most Ipaq's go for around $300-$600-the price of a decent Linux box. I don't think many /.'ers can/will offord one. Besides I see this more of a "geek" project. Sure it is a working PDA with linux but it it takes a bit of know how and tweakin along with dedication to get it to work. Bravo guys on increasing the Linux foot print and you have my $$$ to help along the way.

Does it have MMC/SD support?

[Cloud K]

Last time I checked, it basically wasn't possible due to the closed design of them. But love Linux as much as I do, I still pick the most suitable hardware for my needs. An iPAQ answered that, with Windows CE.

I tried Familiar (heart beating FAST as it messed around with areas that can easily turn the iPAQ into a brick) and one of the main things that put me off was a lack of support for the MMC slot. Sure, I could bloat the size of it even further with a CF jacket, but... meh :( My camera (which I like!) is MMC.

The other thing that bugged me was Bluetooth. If you think it's behind the times in Windows, IMHO it's 5x worse in Linux. I've faffed with it for a week on a desktop machine, don't fancy the same on a handheld TYVM :)

Not being a troll, just submitting my perspective on things as an honest fan of Linux.

Re:Does it have MMC/SD support?

[Sunda666]

MMC and SD work on the 38xx (sa-based) out of the box.
Support for the newer models (pxa-based) is on the way I think.

cheers.

Re:Does it have MMC/SD support?

[hypnotik]

SD is not supported. MMC is, though I've found support flakey (at least with my 3870... it's flakey within WinCE as well)

Re:Does it have MMC/SD support?

[mvcee]

SD is now supported in MMC compatible mode. I have had it running on my 3870 since installing kernel version 2.4.19-rmk6-pxa1-hh18b (a.k.a -hh18b) and later. From the release notes http://familiar.handhelds.org/familiar/releases/v0 .7.2/install/release-notes.html "SD/MMC is only supported in 0.7.2 on the h3800."

Dell Axim X5?

[OutRigged]

How about a port? In my opinion, the Axim would be a great PPC to port Linux to. It's loaded with features, it's dirt cheap, and I'm sick of WM2003. :)

Seriously though, does anyone know the status of a port to the Axim?

Linux tax

[Ilan Volow]

As the owner of a Zaurus, I've paid an enormous tax through hardware that is seriously lacking in ergonomics (putting the power button on the outside of the machine. Damn thing turns on in my pocket) and with software that has bad interface design (the datebook requires twice as many taps as the Palm's to put in a date).

Moral of the story: any technology can have a tax. In Zaurus vs. Palm, the question is whether you pay the tax in money (PalmOS) or in Time/Aggrivation/Lost data (Zaurus). For mobile computing, the latter tax is usually several orders of magnitude more expensive.

Re:Slashdot Suckage

[Russ Nelson]

http://www.clueless.com/jargon3.0.0/recursion.html