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New 'Mystery Meson' Sub-Atomic Particle Discovered

securitas writes "The BBC reports that scientists in Japan have discovered a new sub-atomic particle that defies current theories of matter and energy. The 'mystery meson' X(3872) was revealed while studying beauty quarks at the KEK High Energy Accelerator Research Organization Tsukuba meson factory. 'It weighs about the same as a single atom of helium and exists for only about one billionth of a trillionth of a second before it decays into other longer-lived, more familiar particles.' Scientists say the lifespan 'is nearly an eternity for a sub-atomic particle this heavy' and may require a change in current theory. Possible explanations for this include the particle being comprised of two quarks and two antiquarks, instead of the usual one-one pairing. More explanation and illustrations at KEK."

25 of 462 comments (clear)

  1. The Standard Model by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do we know whether this particle violates the Standard Model? Because if it does, that could mean a real revolution in Physics.

    1. Re:The Standard Model by Popadopolis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe that the article said that it might violate the standard model. If it does, than the discovery will be bigger than quarks (no joke!)!

    2. Re:The Standard Model by EricWright · · Score: 2, Insightful
      From the press release:

      However, as its name implies, the X(3872) particle is peculiar in that it does not easily fit into any known particle scheme and, as a result, has attracted a considerable amount of attention from the world's physics community.

      I'd say the Standard Model would fall under "any known particle scheme"... so yes, if their results are real and reproducable, this particle would violate the Standard Model.

  2. This is why I love physics by Popadopolis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is always changing and bringing new and exciting information.

    1. Re:This is why I love physics by Popadopolis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Heh, you couldn't make up half of that stuff, it is just too strange.

    2. Re:This is why I love physics by Noren · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you're referring to that particular group of researchers, if you RTFA you can see that
      Its discovery was recently confirmed by researchers at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois, US
      That's the beauty of actual science, other people can duplicate your results.

      If you were suggesting a vast, global conspiracy of physicists has organized itself to fraudulently claim the existance of a particle which is of interest mostly only to them- then I think you need to adjust your tinfoil hat.

  3. US Research by tintruder · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Astounding findings such as this and their long-term implications for theory and eventual application certainly prove the worth of physics research programs.

    Too bad the US cancelled the Superconducting Supercollider some years back.

    Why? It cost too much.

    And how much are we spending in Iraq for benefits denied to our own citizens?

    Priorities?

    1. Re:US Research by pmz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've always been amazed at how Big Science constantly rakes in billions and billions of dollars without any real applications on the horizon.

      Actually, those applications are simply beyond your horizon.

    2. Re:US Research by Xzzy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even better, funding interest in FNAL is waning year by year, even though it is at the moment the largest accelerator on the planet (CERN will take that role whenever it's completed).

      The inability for the common grunt to see any value in this research is putting some real strain in the system; people want results and stuff they can buy at wal-mart. Banging subatomic particles together, to date, isn't accomplishing that.

      But this stuff is critically important for humanity to figure out, because the way I see it before we can become a spacefaring race, we need to know how the universe works, from the ground up.

    3. Re:US Research by Malor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Overall, money invested in science has historically paid off at better than 10-1. You see a lot of projects that dead-end or don't produce all that much of value, but every once in awhile you get a major, bonanza strike. Problem is, you can't tell which projects will be the big hits until afterward, so it looks like a big waste of money.

      It isn't. We're still benefiting (enormously!) from the basic research done in the 1950s; they had ideas back then we still haven't fully tapped. Every time someone looks back at one of those obscure reports and says "hey, wait a minute!".... it's a payoff. We have long, long since paid off the money we invested in the 1950s, and made a handsome profit to boot. Everything after that is gravy.

      Research... the gift that keeps on giving. :-)

    4. Re:US Research by goodviking · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And further, why does every dollar spent have to have a concrete application as it's ultimate goal. What's wrong exactly with the expansion of collective human knowledge as a goal in and of itself. If we base all of our policy decisions on whether we can use it to shoot someone or make toast, then we'll wind up with a lot of dead bodies and a lot of fancy toasters. I'm personally happy that we provide money for topologists and don't ask them to work on an assembly line.

    5. Re:US Research by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I'm not saying that we should scrap all basic research.

      Apparently that is what you are saying.
      If you need to do basic research to attack an actual problem in the industry or another branch of science, it's perfectly fine. Researching something just for the sake of research, on the other hand, is nothing but gambling on the tax-payers money. I personally see it as immoral.


      Do I need to explain the difference between science and technology to you?
      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    6. Re:US Research by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Insightful
      > Yeah, right. I've always been amazed at how Big Science constantly rakes in billions and billions of dollars without any real applications on the horizon. It's like the collider-boys sitting in their comfy chairs have a such an big and expensive machine that there's no way their research will ever be closed down. It would be too embarrasing to the ones who started funding them in the first place...
      >
      > Spend the money on Earth sciences or, heck, build a dozen stations on the moon and start beaming energy down here. That would benefit the whole world and it can be done NOW.

      ~ wavy lines as the Time machine takes us back to 1908, where the poster's great-grandfather is ranting at "Printdot" ~

      Right on! Natural Philosophy constantly rakes in the Nobel Prizes without any real applications on the horizon. It's like that damned fool Rutherford sitting in his comfy chair watching his stupid contraption that throws helium ions into gold foil! Who cares if the atom is like a plum pudding or if it has a nucleus or not? There'll never be any practical application, why, Helium isn't even reactive!

      Spend the money on Whaling science, or, heck, just chop down the trees, burn them all, use the heat to boil water, and spin a turbine connected to a bunch of big thick wires, and start sending the energy over here. That would benefit the whole world and it can be done NOW.

      ~ Thus endeth the flashback ~

    7. Re:US Research by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now that, my friend, is what basic research is (or should be) about. Not a gamble where you roll the dice and hope to produce something useful, but a coherrent endeavour which will definitely help with problems in the applied research, and consequently industry, but which may also contribute to the humankind's fundamental understanding of the nature.

      So... you're saying scientific research that contributes to humankind's fundamental understanding of nature is OK if it is guaranteed a predetermined desirable outcome resulting in cool new products for consumers and industry.

      Man... what a bad, bad scientist you would be. I suggest you go for the MBA instead.

    8. Re:US Research by Rasta+Prefect · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Yeah, right. I've always been amazed at how Big Science constantly rakes in billions and billions of dollars without any real applications on the horizon.

      It always amazes me how amazingly shortsighted people can be about these sorts of things. At the turn of the century Rutherford's experiments, or special/general relativity had no real applications on the horizon. Look how totally worthless _that_ turned out to be. We only ended up with semi-conductors and synchrotrons that we could use to determine the molecular structure of compounds, giving us say, most of modern technology. So I can see how any additional basic research into the fundamental structure of matter could be viewed as just throwing good money after bad. Totally worthless!

      --
      Why?
    9. Re:US Research by Rasta+Prefect · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Standard Model? How many applications has it produced?

      Semi-conductors. Synchrotron Radiation and X-Ray Crystallography. Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

      --
      Why?
    10. Re:US Research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      > No self-respecting scientist thinks otherwise.

      Actually, some of us self-respecting scientists don't have massive egos and ideological blinders. :)

      If you decide to fund only applied research, and no basic research at all (which is what you suggest), you constrain the way in which knowledge can expand to only what you can envision, not to what all scientists can envision.

      Would you have funded number theory? Probably not - scratch cryptography.

      Would you have funded finding DNA? Probably not - scratch genetics.

      Would you have funded [basic research]? Probably not - scratch [fundamental technology].

      I'm working on a very applied problem, and someone's just suggested I go check out Lie Brackets - 100% abstract, non-applied group theory, not researched for any application...until suddenly it became important for concrete applications in physics, math, computer science, and in my research.

      I humbly submit that you have a very constrained view of how science should advance. And I humbly submit that we're all better off that you are unable to enforce that view.

    11. Re:US Research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Semi-Conductors
      invented Bell labs 1947.

      Synchrotron Radiation
      hard to say when it was discovered, but was fully understood in 1956 when Tomboulian and Hartman ran the 320-MeV electron synchrotron at Cornell. used long before that of course. Dates back to the 1920s at least.

      X-Ray Crystallography
      again, hard to say when it was invented. Lets just say it was fully operational and useful when Watson and Crick used it to determine DNA structure in 1953. again, it had a history far predating that use. the maths was hard (still is!)

      Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging
      the first NMR image was made in 1946.

      so, these used the standard model did they?

      weird that, since the electroweak theory was developed in 1967, and it wasn't until 1973 that the standard model was formulated.

      but hey, never let the facts get in the way of a mod point.

  4. Abstraction by pubjames · · Score: 3, Insightful


    One thing I'm not clear about when we're talking about sub-atomic particles - how do we know we've got it right? I mean, the idea that these are particles - discrete physical entities if you like - comes from observations of effect and are, as far as I can tell, purely abstractions of what is actually going on. Sometimes abstractions - which of course helps the human mind get understand complex things - can actually mislead. How do we know we've got our thinking right about how sub-atomic particles work?

    1. Re:Abstraction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The whole point of the scientific method is that you get a model that works; then, somewhere down the road, you find something new and your model doesn't work anymore, so you change the model.

      Our thinking about how subatomic particles work - even to the most basic level that we have "particles" (well, wave packets, but..) that we envision as skittering around interacting and such - is only valid because it works.

      The question "Well, then, what is actually going on?" is meaningless. You don't actually know, and so you make better and better models to find out. In the end, you may have a model based on thinking of atoms as little cats; that may not be "what's actually going on", but if it fits experiment then what's the real difference?

    2. Re:Abstraction by f97tosc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One thing I'm not clear about when we're talking about sub-atomic particles - how do we know we've got it right?

      As far as scientists are concerned, they got it right when they make predictions that are verified by experiments. Period. Whether it is "true" or a "misleading abstraction" is for the philosophers and the priests to sort out.

      In this case, they did not get it right because the new particle was not predicted. This has lead to new hypothesis such as a 4-quark particle. If such an hypothesis acurately predicts the outcome of additional experiements, then it is right enough for the scientists. Some philosophers and the priests may disagree but at least they have to concede that the scientific hypothesis was useful - it predicted a novel phenomenon.

      Tor

  5. Re:Another nail in the Standard Model's coffin by jpflip · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Another Contradiction" is much too strong a statement. The Standard Model has two problems (1) it doesn't play well with gravity, so it can't be the "final answer", and (2) it is so ridiculously successful that no one knows quite where to go next in theoretical particle physics. The SM is more or less able to give the right answer to any question we're able to ask it, right up to the edges of black holes or the first tiny fraction of a second after the birth of the universe. There are some problems too complex for our calculational techniques and approximations (i.e. we can't calculate the physics of many bound states precisely or derive human behavior), but there aren't really any contradictions. The recently reported new particle is more likely to lead us to tell us our calculational approximations aren't very good, rather than that something fundamentally new (though one can always hope!) Particle physicists are always hoping to find something fundamentally wrong with the standard model - it's just an extremely good approximation to the right answer, and until the approximation breaks down you don't know how to improve it.

  6. Re:Waste of money by Brahmastra · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No it's not. Physics research has a lot of benefits. X-Rays, MRI, etc are all consequences of trying to study the atom.

  7. Re:Aggregation creates stabilization? by ameoba · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, what you're saying is "If you stick a bunch of subatomic particles together, they become more stable". Umm... if you stick enough sub-atomic particles together, won't you eventually get something that's kinda like a nice stable atom?

    --
    my sig's at the bottom of the page.
  8. The SSC was much cheaper than the ISN or moonbase by cquark · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The price for building the SSC was a small fraction of the cost for even the limited International Space Station we actually built, much less the original planned ISN they kept in the budget the year Congress axed the SSC. Spending a few billion on the SSC, which was guaranteed to either give us the Higgs boson or prove the Standard Model wrong (the exciting if unlikely option) and thus provide some new basic science strikes me as a much better investment than tens of billions on the politically motivated ISN. I'm willing to invest money on real space science (Hubble, Galileo, many others), but too much money that supposedly for science goes to political stunts like the Moon landing instead of projects of actual scientific value. I'm not sure how practical generating power on the moon is and beaming power down has obvious security implications.

    For the poster who asked about how old the Standard Model is and why we haven't seen applications, the Standard Model was created in the 1970's so it's very young by physics standards. We're just beginning to deal with the implications of quantum mechanics for silicon chips and the basics of that area of physics were established in the 1920's. Technology lags physics by a substantial amount of time. However, the physics of particle accelerators themselves has led to enormous advances in medicine and manufacturing as such techniques are used to look inside the human body for disease as well as inside microprocessors for defects, so it's been far from useless even from a shortsighted perspective.