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Congress Expands FBI Powers
Dave writes "Well, since the Patriot Act II never got off the ground, looks like Congress has done the Justice Department a favor, according to Wired News, and added in some of the most controversial provisions into a non-descript intelligence spending bill. Now the FBI can subpoena information about you from practically any business or organization - without approval or permission from a judge, and with a gag order on the targeted organization. These spending bills are generally considered confidential and usually are not subject to public debate, so despite the far-reaching implications of these new powers, it's not being publicized like the Patriot Act was. Time to get out my patriotic hat and pin before it's too late."
When is somebody going to stand up and say enough is enough? A better question is, who CAN stand up to this? I don't know enough about how laws like this get passed without consent from the citizens of this country, so I would simply like to know who I can write and bitch to so this doesn't happen.
I guess the administration couldn't get their way by "taking it to the people" so they just said "fuck the people" and did it anyway.
I am saddened and ashamed of our government. While I don't expect to like everything the government does, I do expect to have a government that operates in the open. Otherwise we're no better than the corrupt regimes that we criticise.
M
We (meaning people who are afraid of what the gov't is doing and are at least a little politically minded, not just /. readers) need to figure out how to get more people to care about their civil liberties and realize that the current government is taking them away. Until enough people are upset about this, it will not stop untill it is too late. Unfortunately, I don't believe Joe Sixpack will care about this until it starts affecting his fast food and TV viewing habits, and even then I think he'll be pretty accepting of it. I saw a bumper sticker recently, though obviously meant to be sarcastic, seemed to sum up the feelings that most people have on this topic: "That's OK, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway."
How can we help put the implications of things like this in face of more people and move them to action? It seems like an impossible task...
If you assume that there was ever any substance to the 'smaller government' rhetoric, then this administration has been a great betrayal of Republican ideals.
If, however, you view the singular goal of the Republican party as the expropriation of taxpayer wealth for the enrichment of the entrenched industrial elite, and all of the cultural conservatism and libertarian rhetoric as tactics to achieve this goal, then this has been the most successful Republican administration ever.
- - - Patent applied for and deliver us from evil
The link to that site has been posted quite a few times in /.'s discussions. He claimed that he was a Time Traveller from 2036. Among the "predictions" he made back in 2000, was the Black hole research at CERN, the Chinese Man mission, the Iraq war, the Columbia disaster, and most importantly the VAST increase in powers that the US Government gave itself to suppress citizens.
The last one supposedly leads to a US Civil war in 2004. I might have laughed at his posts in 2000, but with these more and more frightening developments, I can't help but wonder.
An interesting read nevertheless.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
But, hey, if you don't have anything to hide, what are you worried about?
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
don't trust me. trust the sf chroncial
fbi scrutinizing anti-war protestors
choice quote:
Particularly chilling, he said, was the use of the phrase "training camps'' to describe instruction on nonviolence given to demonstrators. That phrase is often used to describe terrorist training sites.
i predict with these new powers the fbi will be surveilling all suspiscious "training camp" attendees such as major league baseball players.
2 1337 4 u!
For example, time-limited disclosure. If the FBI think that I'm channeling funds to a terrorist organisation and want to get hold of my paypal records to check on that then fair enough. And if they don't want me to know that they've tried to do it, then fair enough too. Until they establish that I'm not a terrorist. At which point, I want to know what's been happening. So have time-limited secrecy. By default, any use of these powers could be disclosed 3 months (say) after it occurred, unless the investigators have appealled to a higher authority to keep it secret.
Frivolous abuse of power is then discouraged (because every investigation that fails to find anything interesting is published) and systematic abuse of power is at least partly discouraged (because if you want to cover up what's happening, you're going to have to get a judge to agree to it after 3 months).
1) FBI can subpoena information about you from practically any business or organization
2) without approval or permission from a judge
3) a gag order on the targeted organization
4) spending bills are generally considered confidential and usually are not subject to public debate
5) not being publicized
Goddammit, why is it that so much of the science fiction I read is coming true? Just recently, I decided to read Starship Troopers, where the whole damn book is about how the 20th century democracies failed leading to a system that voluntary military service had to be completed before a person became a citizen.
I won't even mention 1984 (oops) or Farenheight 451 (oops again!).
This shit has been predicted for over 50 years, now! The visionaries spoke and were ignored.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Not intending this to be a troll, but something about Bush's speeches always grated on me. I finally figured out why: his prolific use of words like "freedom" and "democracy". Not so much that he said them but the sheer frequency of its usage.
What bugged me was that he feels he needs to keep saying it. Ever notice that China is officially the "People's Republic of China" despite very little representation for or by the people? Then there's the "Democratic Republic of Congo", which isn't democratic. And let's not forget the "Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea"--a 2-for-1 deal there.
My 2 cents: the more someone feels the need to use rhetoric to hammer a point, the less that point happens to be true.
yes, the government is playing 'big brother,' seeing what books you read in the library. that's why they said in septermber they've NEVER used this power of the patriot act.
i'll admit the possibilities are scary, but you've gotta have some faith in your government. especially with a matter that is temporary (remember, pat act has an expiration date).
The "hype" that you so casually brush to the side is the fact that the government is simply making itself less and less accountable for its actions. Do you have the slightest clue as to why the Constitution was drafted the way it was? The limiting power it (supposedly) has? It's to keep government from growing out of control. Unfortunately things like the 4th Amendment are considered relics these days, where fear and the wreckless pursuit of "security" are at the forefront.
Regardless if anyone has been "harrassed" or not (and they have already, and don't get me started on civil asset forfeiture laws) the government will continue down this path, and I don't see the voting population of this country seeing too much of a problem with it. By the time they will it will be too late.
I was in the London protests against Bush last week, and it's stuff like this that makes me glad I picked the 'Shamed by your stance on civil liberties' poster.
Here is an article I wrote about the experience for those interested.
Yes, Virginia, you do have a choice! No, voting third party is NOT wasting a vote and if you can educate your friends on this point then you and I and the other people who think outside the FBI directed box can make a difference. With enough third party candidates in office, the scales can tip. Look into libertarian, green, and other party systems. Vote independant. Write in. Unless the state you live in has some inane requirements for putting a third party on the ballot to be voted on (in which case lobby - yeah, I hate to use that word in a way - to get the law changed to make it easier for third party candidates to be put on the ballots) then you DO have a choice. Exercise. Send a message to the "good-old-boy two part system" by putting someone else in office. Hell, that is just what the current American government system needs is a nice wake-up call that the current two party system is fscked and new blood is needed.
Whew, sorry about the mini-rant there.
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
I would like to encourage you to watch this great lecture streamed through the internet. Prof. David D. Cole of Georgetown University Law Center explores the parallels between the first Red Scare, the era of McCarthyism and todays equivalent... terrorism. If you have a good internet connection with Real player and an hour of your time, I would recommend catching this enlightening lecture. To learn how denying the civil liberties of others may later trample on your very on liberties and rights in the future. Parts of the original Patroit Act are in this lecture as well.
"Freedom and Terror: September 11th and the 21st Century Challenge Freedom"
by Professor David D. Cole, Georgetown University Law Center
Real Player stream
The lecture is available by webstream on demand:
http://www.umich.edu/~sacua/webstream.htm
For more information on the Academic Freedom Lecture
Series please see:
http://www.umich.edu/~sacua/AFL/afllecture.html
----
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't trade unionists.
THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
THEN THEY CAME for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Martin Niemoeller, Lutheran Pastor.
Quote from the Wired article:
[quote]Justice Department officials tried earlier this year to write a bill to expand the Patriot Act. A draft -- dubbed Patriot II -- was leaked and caused such an uproar that Justice officials backed down. The new provision inserts one of the most controversial aspects of Patriot II into the spending bill.[/quote]
Why is this process allowed? Why can an article that is completely unrelated to the bill be tacked on, and passed as a whole? "A spoon-ful of sugar helps the medicine go down", I suppose.
Methinks tactics like this should be outlawed, as it can create a conflict of interest: "I don't really like section Z of this bill, but if I don't pass the rest of this bill my constituents will be livid and throw me out of office..."
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
Try Canada. Sure, they tax the hell out of us, but other than that, we're pretty much left alone. That being said, it scares the crap out of me to watch the US continue to pass laws that kill off the notions of freedom as laid out in your Constitution. I'm just waiting for the day that Manifest Destiny creeps back into mainstream consciousness.
Those who would impede freedom, impede life.
So when news gets out that the government let knowledge of the 9/11 attacks sit around untouched, the public is outraged and demands a change. THEN the government changes things to allow the FBI to act quicker when presented with evidence of terrorist plans.
Did you see how close the FBI was to finding the hijackers using the means availible to them at the time? They only failed because their REQUESTS for permission to investigate (permission from their higher-ups, not the courts) were turned down. The subjects were Saudis and therefore untouchable. No, none of the changes made by the PATRIOT act or dept of homeland security address what the failing was.
Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
Bring the tech companies over here instead! I could use the work :)
:P
:)
Seriously, though, I can't believe what you guys call "freedom". We don't technically have "freedom of speech" over here, so it's not legal to insult people all over the place, but I haven't had a problem with that yet. And you can always call your politicians a bunch of bastards over here and everyone will laugh and agree with you. Besides, voting is compulsory. You think that's a bad thing? It's against the law to not be allowed out of work to vote. Everyone gets their say, because they have to. You might not like that, I think it's fantastic.
Of course, Australia's been grovelling to the US a lot lately. Bunch of Tall Poppies, the lot of you!
Don't mod me down, making fun of people is the Australian way! It's fun!
Does anyone care to guess how many violations or abuses that have been uncovered where a private citizens rights have been violated?
Did anyone guess Zero? Because thats exactly how many violations there have been.
I don't think very highly of the ill-informed knee-jerk reactionaries and scaremongers that tend to populate every YRO story here, but I don't find this rebuttal to their rhetoric any more convincing.
We can't know whether the Patriot Act powers have ever been abused or not. All we can know is that zero abuses of the Patriot Act HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED.
No matter how many eyes it has on it, Open source software can still contain bugs. Open government is no different.
I still think they're both generally better than the alternatives.
second, missles turn guns into blobs of steel, so what use is a gun if your facing the turret of a tank coming up your front lawn?
So, you do the same thing the VC did. Hide, wait for the tank crew to get out of the tank, and then kill them. Quite simple, and effective. Really, if there was a popular revolt in the US (and I mean more than some whack job malitia), it would be a meat grinder for both sides. Remeber, how do you tell a good loyal american from one who is pretending to be loyal, until he shoots you? You can't. If there is an armed revolt in America, it will be fought in a very similar manner as the Vietnam conflict. You will have a populous that doesn't really like the military that is trying to control it, who can hide in plain sight, and the more damage the military does to the enemy, and to infrasructure, the more people it turns against itself, and the more damage it does to its own infrastructure.
This is why the government having files on everyone is so dangerous. If open, armed, revolt ever becomes necessary, and the government has files that give it a pretty good clue about who the dissidents are going to be, the people lose the advantage of being able to hide in a crowd. The war would be over before it ever got started. Also, it will be advantagous for the revolutionaries, if there are plenty of weapons just lying about, and they don't have to storm a government base for them.
Sure, if it comes down to it, a revolt is going to kill lots of people; but let's not give up their greatest advantage before the war even starts.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
A big problem is that a large part of the American population has a black and white view. It is either white or black, it is either good or evil. In reality things happend in large number of grays. The catch is this is too subtle for people who are used to a binary approach. We need to encourage people to look amongst the grays and feel comfortable choosing from them. This is where many countries in Europe differ from the USA, since they have a large number of parties and people vote across the board, unless there is one thorny issue that really gets people's back against the wall.
There almost needs to a website put together that people can access that lists the stand points of the various political parties. That way people can have an unbiast view as to what each party is striving for. The site should also include the policatical history of laws that were brought in and what the voting position of each party was.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Just remember, if you stop spending money like sheep, the terrorists win, but if you give up your freedoms in exchange for "security" they dont.
If you are in a public place, you can be videotaped by anyone, as you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. If someone wants to videotape police actions but are worried about a tape being confiscated, they should have the VCR seperate from the camera, connected wirelessly. Then they would still have the tape, showing the camera being smashed. News reporters would eat that up.
This was sent to my various representatives.... Write physical letters and let them know this is not acceptable. I'm about as fed up with this crap as I can be.
Hon. Jim Talent:
I was outraged today to read reports stating that several of the most controversial provisions of the Patriot II bill had been passed despite the negative public debate surrounding the original bill. These provisions include: Expanding the definition of financial institutions to include a wide range of commercial and retail transactions. Another item is the elimination of Congressional reporting on intelligence and antidrug effectiveness. A third measure being the elimination of Congressional reporting of how often National Security Letters (NSLs) are used. By quietly passing these provisions within a spending bill for the Justice Department, It seems to have been moved through Congress in a manor that attempts to minimize public exposure and debate.
I cannot express the level of disappointment that I feel in this matter. The cunning manor these provisions were passed in chills my faith in this governments ability to reflect the will of its sovereign, the people. I am tired of reading the news and finding yet another public figure claiming that more of my rights must be set aside to fight terrorism. What returns have we seen from all that has been "given" so far? Yet we are asked, nay told, to give up more. We are given only empty assurances that these provisions will only be used on those who are evil; the innocent have nothing to fear from warrantless searches. So little have we to fear in fact that congress will not even require them to report on how often they use these powers.
There seems to be a fundamental shift in the way our government operates today -- the notion that the government "grants" us rights that can be suspended when it so desires seems to be prevalent. This is However, a careful study of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution reveals the intent of our founders that rights are granted by virtue of being human and can only be denied under very limited circumstances. I believe that with erosions such as these Patriot provisions those circumstances are no longer limited, and the line that divided us from the nations that we feared and ridiculed for their lack of human rights only decades ago is vanishing.
The current administration and much of my party (Republicans) seem to be unable to represent my interests any longer. In this case they can't even seem to bow to the collective will of this country. The message being sent to the public is clear: If the public dissent grows too loud, then table controversial legislation and pass it's provisions later in secret. This behavior does not inspire confidence in the political process. This President and his administration have lost my vote, and It can not be brought back. I cannot support an administration that treats our rights as an impediment to be overcome. Additionally, any of my representatives who supported this method of passing these provisions have lost my vote as well. I will be working to educate all that I know that this was done and who was responsible.
I hope this nation's leadership can turn this ship around. When I look at this country today and consider all the freedoms that have vanished since I was young; it does not make me proud. In fact, it saddens and angers me greatly. I would hope it does you as well.