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Around the World in a Solar Plane
Coati writes "Bertrand Piccard, the guy that flew around the world in a balloon, wants to do it again, this time in a solar plane."
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Guess he won't be flying at night.....
The opinions expressed here are not mine, but those of these dang voices in my head.
Hope he stays above the clouds :-)
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
he'd better not fly over the UK then.. no sun here ;)
Yeah, but does it run Linux?
helo wat is ur asl ?
Of Jean-Luc Picard? :-)
how high would you need to fly at what lattitude and at what time of year to get out of earth shadow?
Is there any scientific value to going around the world in a balloon, solar plane, or whatever? Or are these just things that wealthy people do to keep themselves occupied?
So after a few years of r&D half a dozen custom built protoypes (to be discarded as non-biodegradable junk) and other discarded parts they can have something that probably took more energy to make than a small town uses in a year, but then fly it around the world using only energy from the sun...I suppose it will be a cool engineering achievement.
.Sig. temporarily unavailable due to terminal lack of inventivness
So, assuming he has clear skies for most of that trip, no problem. However, if he hits "inclement weather," how much energy does that plane store up before it runs out of juice? Or can it be assumed he will be above the cloud cover for the whole trip? And, is it assumed the trip is continuous or will he be able to stop at "jump points" (this makes more sense for obvious reasons). If he can stop even briefly, this idea becomes a lot more feasible.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
All he needs is a really big bungee cord...
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
a link without the stupid animation here
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Is there any scientific value to going around the world in a balloon
Is there any scientific value to space exploration?
I'm guessing that circumnavigation of Earth in a particular class of vehicle acts as a sort of proof of concept to the vehicle's operation. Engineers at transportation industry companies usually want to work with ideas that somebody else has tested in the field, and this is where the wealthy people's pastimes come in.
Obliugatory Piccard joke.....
Piccard: To boldy go, where no ma- (turbulence) Number 1, why are we rapidly descending?
Riker: It seems to be a solar eclipse sir
Piccard: All hands embrace for impact!
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
People can stay in the air for several days in a glider. They use upward currents to gain height. You know, fly over a desert in the day, and over a forest at night.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
I work for Merck, and we value life and saving the lives of those who cannot help themselves.
Tell Khaled i said hi, and thanks for ruining irc.
He wants, by 2006, to have a through-the-night solar flight (36h). If he could do the circumnavigation in 24h, though, he could just avoid the night, and travel around the world at the same speed a day travels across the earth. Seems risky, if you suddenly hit problems over the pacific.
It's a long way to glide.
Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
We need the wood.
Spare me the "any mention of ecology gets a lukewarm response from the public because their comfortable existence is threatened".
The problem with many so-called 'ecologists' is that they frame everything in terms of 'saving the Planet'. Here's a clue - the Planet will survive long after we're all dead. The Earth will be there when the sun becomes a red giant and eats it. We shouldn't save the Planet, we should save ourselves. Does the Earth 'care' if biodiversity diminishes due to pollution? Does the Earth 'care' if the light pollution causes algae disruptions in the Great Lakes? No. but we should.
This project is great at raising visibility and research focus in the fields of energy capture, storage and motor design, but these folks aren't the Messaihs.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
If you had clicked the article link, you'd see a picture of it flying at dusk, right on the front page!.
Also from the press release
The Solar Impulse aircraft will have an extremely long wingspan, advanced aerodynamics, and a revolutionary structure in order to capture and store sufficient solar energy during the day and to be able to maintain itself in flight during the night.
and you run and you run to catch up with the sun but its sinking, only to come up behind you again...
only on /. you see someone called penis fish modded up...
he's a troll and it's offtopic anyway
I would assume that the pilot would fly a zigziag course. During the day, they would fly westward to stay in the sun as long as possible. During the night, they would fly eastward to meet the dawn as soon as possible.
I also wonder if they might choose a route that flies over the upwelling of air at the equatorial convergence zone. It might be rough, but those air currents could help them stay aloft during the night.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
The best name for this project would be Icarus. The Icarus name has been used by many projects before, which might make it undesireable. But, the Icarus name fits this project to a T.
They should go around the world in a solar-powered submarine.
Perhaps we have a right to wipe humanity of the face of the planet, perhaps we don't. But I don't see how we have a right to wipe out all the countless other species and to poison the earth, sky and the seas.
To use a famous quote, this is a beautiful planet, it's a miracle and we're destroying it.
(Cue a dozen posts from people who think environmental awareness is for only for hippies high as a kite.)
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Auguste Piccard was a Swiss while J-L Picard is a Scot actor playing a French dude. I am certain the Star Trek NG writers had in the back of their mind that A. Piccard was a famous explorer, and they wanted their J-L Picard to be more the Swiss Explorer than the Captain Cook-like J.T. Kirk. If they knew about A. Piccard, they may have changed the name and nationality to make it simpler for TV viewers.
Cook definitely was the inspiration for Kirk, both as an explorer and as a shoot-from-the-hip military man, while I think that J-L Picard was meant to be more science and less militarism. Remember, STNG was kind of like a Total Quality Management, Fan Focus Group, New and Improved Star Trek, and one of the criticisms of Star Trek was putting the captain in harms way all the time. Captain Cook put himself in harms way and was killed in a skirmish in Hawaii, but some dweeb critics thought the captain of the Enterprise was too important to get into hand-to-hand combat with aliens every other episode, so Picard was supposed to be kept safe by Worf, and Riker was supposed to tangle with the aliens and get beat up. But as episodes went on, we learned from Q that Picard had an artificial heart because he was more hot-headed than he let on, and by the time he has turned into Locutus, he was fighting aliens and proved to be a scrappier fighter than Kirk (or the time he single-handedly thwarted a hijacking of the Enterprise by terrorists when the crew was gone on leave in a thin ripoff of Stephen Segal's "Under Siege" -- while Navy Seal Segal was "only a cook" because he was busted in rank, Captain Picard was "only the barber" because I suppose with his shaved head that was real funny).
Its called tax,
it allready happens.
Also, spending monney is good,
leting it sit in your matress at
home is bad.
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But I don't see how we have a right to wipe out all the countless other species and to poison the earth, sky and the seas.
Because God said: Eat up!
How do you like your whale prepared?
well ive already mentioned the factors involved in earth shadow. now we must consider the energy requirements and aerodynamics.
solar energy 1.4KW m^2 outside earth atmosphere.
atmospheric radiation dissipation due to various phenomena in clear sky conditions below tropopause 0.11KW/KM
so we should have 03KWm^2 of top surface area.
we can throw in some basic guestimates that the wing area will be ~= 20m^2. a moderate flying speed of around 200knots. and NACA aerofoil efficiency of around 0.83.
now taking the STP at flight level 50 of 700hectopascals and an average rho value into rayleighs formula average viscosity constants,
a drag of 420N/m^2
to achieve 200knots a thrust force of around 840Kg/s would be required.
it can be seen that it is fairly easy to achieve solar powered flight.
although i have no idea how efficient modern galium arsenide solar cells are?
NASA's little darling solar plane flew at about 90,000 feet, well above any potential cloud cover. You can assume that these guys are planning on the same strategy. But if you plan to send a manned flight up to 90k feet, doesn't that raise a whole slew of logistics questions? i.e., the amount of oxygen needed, the weight ratios to follow, etc...
Who is Jean-Luc Piccard anyway?
Bertrand is the son of Jacques and the grand-son of Auguste. See his biography.
"His grandfather, Auguste (1884-1962), [...invented] the principle of the pressurised cockpit and the stratospheric balloon. In making the first exploration of the stratosphere [...] in 1931, he [...] became the first man to see the curvature of the earth's surface with his own eyes."
"His father, Jacques, continued the work of Auguste [...] the world's deepest dive (-10916 metres in the Marianas Trench, the greatest known ocean depth)."
The point of this kind of research is to improve technology. The result is more efficient solar cells and batteries, the kind of tech which will improve thousands of things.
Its not just some guy with loads of money who thinks it would be cool to fly around the world, it is serious research into several important fields. The kind of research that without rich enthusiasts wouldn't get done.
I agree that people should be more willing to spread the wealth, which is why I applaud the "give so much a month" approach charities use, and wish more people would do it. Who would notice 10 pounds a month missing from their salary of thousands? If everyone gave an amount they could afford without even noticing then a hell of a lot of people could be helped.
Saving is also good.
spent money == income for firm
saved money (in bank) == invetment money for firm
Which is better?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
soundtrack: "don't let the sun go down on me" by Elton John
If everyone gave an amount they could afford without even noticing
It's called 'withheld income tax'.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Now I am not trying to troll here as some of you may point to evidence for cold fusion. But Fleischmann and Pons certainly didn't help their cause by being sloppy with experimental control and calorimetry, so the way it played out it is fair to lable what happened as junk science.
I was suprised to see Biosphere 2 labled as junk science. Now there were junk science aspects to it in that the leader was said to be a kind of cult leader type, and if the goal was to have a self-sustained ecosystem, they should have worked their way using pilot models where they through animals in with some plants. They just threw the thing together, sealed themselves in, and when it didn't work, they didn't call the experiment off right away to retune, recalibrate, and try again.
But I am not sure if I would call building a Biosphere 2 and attempting to live in it junk science on the face of it -- the junk science dude thought it a development project at best and not real science. The junk science dude admitted that there was a scientific question regarding what it took to have a self-sustaining biosphere, and so far a self-sustaining biosphere has never been set up in a lab while such a think occurs on the surface of our planet. It is an important question: what kind of anthropomorphic or natural stresses on Earth's biosphere could wreck it, could you build a microcosm biosphere for long duration space travel, could you build one on a space colony, could you terraform Mars or Venus? How big does a biosphere have to be to work?
I guess the criticism was that it was junk science to just stick a bunch of plants, people, animals, and soils in a sealed greenhouse and hope for the best. I don't think it was junk science to build a Biosphere 2 as a proof of concept if you knew what you were doing.
So a solar round-the world plane may be just development engineering, but it may lead to solar aerial platforms, but MacReady is already doing robotic long-duration solar plains. Maybe a human payload is proof of concept of large payload capability, or maybe the Piccard guy needs something to do.
What is he going to do if the sun go out?
Boy he'll look dumb then.
too much saving = ressesion and loss of jobs
.AU that is.
spending = money gose around and around and creates jobs.
mind you that might just be me and my growing up in the 80's and the "ression we had to have", thats in
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Those interested in efficient flight should read about Paul MacCready (and many others) who have been involved in the American human/solar powered flight movement: More with Less: Paul MacCready and the Dream of Efficient Flight.
First entomology, then virology, and finally bioinformatics systems. Bugs follow me wherever I go.
The EPFL explains much more about the technological aspects. It's in French of course: here.
:-), they also have nice pictures
But for those who cannot read
One technological aspect is that by flying very high, they can take advantage of the cold (-55C), which can improve efficiency of electro-magnetic motors.
There are other interesting bits. I guess the page will be translated in English in a few days. (Forget computer translations, unless you want a cheap laugh)
true, but
too much spending == too little saving == only firms with income can invest
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
When Roddenberry was pitching the show to the networks, he said it was a "Horatio Hornblower in Space" type of show.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
Save the planet means .. keep it all the same ...
You lose. Nothing stays the same.
So help save the planet and be a hero!
You first. You could start by not reproducing, and killing yourself, because you're using stuff up. The basic problem here is that there are TOO DAMN MANY PEOPLE. Stop sweating the small stuff and address the underlying problem.
Not saving the planet is letting lots of species die out - faster than evolution can replace them.
"Lots" is kind of vague, but I don't have a knee jerk reaction to "letting" species die out. I don't think we're better off with tsetse flies than without them. I don't think the cities and suburbs are better off allowing coyotes to repopulate and kill off all the domestic cats. Do you think it's a good idea having venomous snakes in those woods you want your grandkids to enjoy walking through? Do you have a problem with dinosaurs being gone?
The Helios Solar Airplane probably could have flown around the world. But with a cruising speed of only about 40 km/hr it would have taken 1000 hours (41 days). Such a long duration flight is fine for an unmanned aircraft, but poses severe challenges for manned flight. Carrying weeks worth of food, water, and oxygen represents additional payload that such a vehicle can ill afford. Onboard recycling/extraction systems could reduce the need for consumables, but they add weight also.
..... SIGH!
But without a person in the cockpit, the venture won't get much media attention. And without media attention, the project won't attract much sponsorship.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Right now, using solar power sounds like a good idea. It's a renewable and non polluting source of energy.
But if we have learned anything about excessive energy use from the past, we should proceed with caution. What will happen when the whole world is powered by solar power? Think of it, all this energy from the sun that would normally heat the earth would now go towards generating electricity. This would probably lead to a global chilling which is not a good thing.
I think we should either stay dependant on fossil fuels for now, or even increase our consumption of them to counter the effects of global chilling in the future with more global warming now.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
December 1986 this was done with fuel
Why can't this now be done with solar cells and high-density batteries?
I would have more faith in this project if it was being done by somebody else.
Stay aloft for weeks at a time? sure why not. Just expand on this idea
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
Remember the other famous balloon guy: Steve Fossett (millionaire with to much spare time, first solo balloon flight around the world). He is also playing with gliders these days. A year ago he tried to achieve a new height by soaring a mountain wave (but didn't succeed?). Right now he seems be persuing some other gliding records and building some big boats.
Having done some gliding myself (~50 solo flights, never got my licence though) i think this is really cool.
karma police: arrest this man, he talks in maths; he buzzes like a fridge, he's like a detuned radio. [radiohead]
It's called 'withheld income tax'.
I would challenge you to find anyone who doesn't notice the amount of income tax they pay.
It's more noticeable if you have to pay it youself, then if your employer kindly pays it for you. I suppose most people would notice it, though.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Just repeat after me:
"It's all about money."
"It's all about money."
I have a 2kw solar system on my roof so I'm certainly not anti-renewable energy. I just think people should realize that the problem has nothing to do with technology or people's desire maintain their lifestyle because it's not even allowed to come down to that. It's about greed and established infrastructure. I don't think it's any coincidence that the major solar panel manufacturers are all owned by oil companies. I can't prove it but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that they are controlling the price of solar panels to keep the usage at a level that is comfortable to them.
We have reached the level of corporate control in this world that is reminicent of the movie Rollerball (for those of you old enough to remember it). The U.S. courts and the EU and make a good show of protecting their citizens but corporations don't need to do anything illegal to get what they want. With enough money and lawyers you can blunt any reform that comes down the pike. Movies have to be more dramatic but the truth is much more banal.
I'm glad Mr. Piccard has the ability to put together these inspiring projects. I wish he'd invite me to be on his team. I just don't think for a minute that it's going to address the real problem.
"I tried solar power but it just made my skin peel. I'll stick with food, thank you."
"Meaningless!, Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless!"
Do you think Piccard does all this stuff cause it's eco friendly? Nah, I don't think so. I know such guys. They do things only because nobody earlier did. They don't care about values. They don't care about publicity. They dont care if their project will consume all their money. Hell, they don't even care if they die adventuring.
I admire such people. Their achievements are great and spectacular. But they're risk addict - please God let me avoid one of these persons in my family. Waiting when and if one's husband/wife/whatever returns can be damn hard.
I woder if the plane has solar cells on the ground facing part of the wing. Extra sunlight reflected from clouds is always a bonus.
after reading the website, it's clear to me that if Piccard were to make an ego powered craft he could probably land on the Moon.
__ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
I, the original poster was referring to this project in terms of flight, sun, crash and burn. Hence Icarus.
Am I the only one who interpreted "solar plane" as the plane in which the sun appears to travel as seen from earth? Man, I need to get out more.
is because they know the oil is running out and they want to be online with a new type of energy to sell you. It truly is all about the benjamins, but they make so much now from oil that its not profitable for them to sell solar, when it gets too expensive to sell oil they'll push solar.
But without a person in the cockpit, the venture won't get much media attention. And without media attention, the project won't attract much sponsorship. ..... SIGH!
:-)
Exactly.
And being the "person in the cockpit", and attracting sponsorship is what the latest Piccard seems to be good at.
And he is nicely grateful to his sponsors too. On the contacts page of the site, the link to his own site (www.bertrandpiccard.com) actually points to his sponsors (www.breitling.com)! Whether it is accidental, intentional, or a nice meaning-ladden lapsus is open to speculations
In different times, the scientist could end up getting the media's attention, but now the work has been "Taylorized": one does the acting, and others do the real (ineteresting but not so media-flashy) work. In this case, it's the Lausanne university. In his previous achievement, it was mainly meteorologists sitting in front of boring computer screens.
Nevertheless, the project sounds exciting.
I would have more faith in this project if it was being done by somebody else.
Don't worry, it's not done by him at all. He's only the man in the cockpit
The real team doing it is on this picture.
You fool, were already in the matrix. Unfortunately it was coded by Microsoft. ;)
Batteries! Li-Ion batteries, charged by day and discharged at night. Paul McCready built and flew a solar powered drone that could fly through the night (a previous slashdot highlight). As for clouds and weather, the cure is altitude (lots of it). Unlike combustion engine planes, the solar-electric has no loss of engine performance in thinner air. It even gains a bit as you climb above the haze and pollution. Just provide an O2 bottle for the pilot to breathe from, and climb above the weather.
It is his money, he is choosing to spend it on something which is of interest to him. So he is directing money into that field.
If he left the money in banks then other people are deciding where to invest the money.
I work for Merck, and we value life and saving the lives of those who cannot help themselves.
Dude, I thought you worked for SGI...
Why'd you move to Merck? High school getting too boring for you?