Diebold To Drop Suit Against Whistleblowers

segment writes "Fox News reports that 'Diebold said it would not sue dozens of students, computer scientists and Internet service providers who had received cease-and-desist letters from the company from August to October,' which is great for academia land, but one should still ponder using Diebold on any level: 'an executive scolded programmers for leaving software files on an Internet site without password protection.' Kind of a scary thought with all the United States went through during the Bush/Gore election, imagine the theories should a Diebold product be used in a situation like that. " Reader doormat points out, however, that "the EFF is still going after Diebold over the C&D letters." Several readers also submitted links to Paul Krugman's New York Times column about Diebold's approach to public trust and accountability.

Comments

EFF *still* suing?

[I confirm I'm not a]

IANAL, so would anyone care to explain the logic of continuing to sue Diebold over the C&D letters, when Diebold have stopped persuing the C&Ds? (Not flaming the EFF, just curious why they aren't going after other Diebold challenges to freedom)

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[SimianOverlord]

The logic is to punish the company for using C&D letters as a means to intimidate and harass. After all, they seem to now be admitting the C&D letters were baseless.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[Liselle]

IANAL either, but it seems to me that at the very least it sends a message that you can't abuse the DMCA without paying the fiddler. If companies like Diebold thought they could get away with sending worthless C&D letters to scare people, and then retracting it at the last minute before the case fell through, that's bad news. If the EFF's lawsuit puts some fear of god into at least one litigious corporate numbskull, then it's for the good of everyone, imo.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[Maresi]

They want a clear statement (from the court) that such c&d-letters are a clear misuse of the DMCA.

Read here for more infos

BTW (from the link above): Its not the EFF directly that is suing, they just help the nonprofit "ISP Online Policy Group" (OPG) and two Swarthmore College students .



--

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[AndroidCat]

Large organizations can fire a DMCA attack by just sending a letter claiming a DMCA violation. This frequently results in ISPs taking down sites or releasing names without any struggle at all. The target of one of these can try a counter-claim, but if the target is an individual, fighting back can be difficult even if the claim is completely bogus like a $cientology avagram.

Since those claims are sent on penalty of perjury it would be nice to see someone lose a metaphorical hand for frivolous use of them.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[agentZ]

The part about "on penalty of perjury" refers to claim that the person sending the letter, usually a lawyer, represents the injured party. It has nothing to do with the contents of the letter. Check out 17 USC 1202 for the details.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[AndroidCat]

So long as someone really does represent someone else, they can make any sort of fraudulent DMCA claims?

My country and laws vary, so I didn't study it closely -- but I make darned sure that I don't use an American company for any web hosting. (Maybe if it was a page no one and no kook could possibly ever take offence at.)

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[Ayaress]

In effect, yes.

The lawyer sends the C&D letter on penalty of purjury. However, if his boss (Diebold in this case) represented to him that these letters were, in fact, justified, he isn't at fault, as he believed he was acting within the extent of the DMCA (Or at least there's not way to prove otherwise in court).

And to make things worse, when Diebold told the lawyer(s) that they were justified in sending the C&D letters, THAT statement was not made under pentalty of purjury. It's one of those loopholes in the law that really should be pulled shut.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

The EFF could be trying to pursue them under charges of Barratry.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[zerocool^]

As someone who works at an ISP (webhost (netmar.com)) and who has been threatened with DMCA violations, here's the proceedure:

Upon notification, we must verify that:
1.) we received written notification
2.) the party claims, under penalty of perjury, that they are or represent the accusing party
3.) They specify contact info
4.) They detail what and where something is infringing
5.) They must make a claim, under penalty of perjury, that the claims of infringement, to the best of their knowledge, are accurate.

Then, we are not liable for damages, so long as:
1.) we didn't notice or had no reason to believe that the material being served was copyrighted
2.) Move quickly to remove it
3.) Do not stand to benifit from the infringement

Additionally, we are only indemnified assuming we:
1.) Have an agent contact at the copyright office
2.) Make the contact info for said agent available on our public website

So, there is a legal process for this, but, in order for us to not invite legal action, we have legal obligations, just as the accusers do. If the accusers make no statement, under penalty of perjury, that they directly represent the copyright holder and that the material on our system is theirs, then we are not obligated to remove it.
If they don't make the direct statement about their notice being accurate, then they have not upheld their end of the legal process.

Note to other webhosts/ISP's: You have to apply for this. You have to have your agent at the copyright office. As long as you are registered for DMCA protection, and you follow the legal process you're ok, but if you have no registered agent contact at the copyright office, then none of this applies, and no one has to make any legal statments in order to compell you to take somethign down by law.

~Wx

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[Anonymous Coward]

"So long as someone really does represent someone else, they can make any sort of fraudulent DMCA claims?"

Yes, but as soon as these claims become evidence, all parties had better have their story straight. You can say whatever you'd like until the part where you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. At that point you'd best be telling the truth. If your story does change significantly from what you said prior to the hearing or deposition, that might be a problem but it's not necessarily a crime. All that really matters is what's said under oath. Basically, documents don't exist until a judge says they do. And nobody ever said anything until they said it under oath.

I wish people would stop backing down at the first threat of a lawsuit. I think the reason is more probably because most people being sued are not quite as innocent as they would like to believe, not because a court hearing is automatically going to bankrupt them (this is commonly believed).

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[red floyd]

Any of the recipients in California? They could probably sue Diebold under CA's anti-SLAPP laws.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[AndroidCat]

as soon as these claims become evidence

But that only happens if someone files a counter-claim and it goes to court. Which, as you say, doesn't happen as often as it should.

Whether a copyright case will bankrupt you depends on who you're fighting. If you're dealing with an insane cult that doesn't sue to win but to ruin opponents utterly, spending millions to win pennies, it's a vaid fear.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[MrResistor]

IANAL, so would anyone care to explain the logic of continuing to sue Diebold over the C&D letters, when Diebold have stopped persuing the C&Ds?

Just off the top of my head, but this might be why:

The North Canton, Ohio-based Diebold ... said it will continue to monitor the online proliferation of the leaked documents, and may sue others who publish the data.

In other words, they admit that they're only backing off because of the bad press, and not because they've had an epifany that what they're doing is fundamentally wrong.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[gcaseye6677]

I think this was their plan all along. They certainly realized that taking these people to court would be a big mistake. Not only would they likely lose, but the bad publicity would cause people to assume the worst about them and governments would be pressured to not use their voting machines. The legal letters were simply an attempt to silence easily intimidated people.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[AndroidCat]

2.) Move quickly to remove it

In all that, I didn't notice any step where you notify the person that put up the claimed infringing material. $cientology frequently claims to own material that is in fact owned by the person that put it up.

Have to run.

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[AndroidCat]

...continued... I thought there was a provision where the person who put up the claimed infringing material could counter-challenge, and if they do, it lets the ISP off the legal hook?

So shouldn't there be a step where you inform the owner of the site that you're bringing it down? (I think the law allows a few days to respond. As I said, not my law.)

Re:EFF *still* suing?

[rifter]

The part about "on penalty of perjury" refers to claim that the person sending the letter, usually a lawyer, represents the injured party. It has nothing to do with the contents of the letter. Check out 17 USC 1202 for the details.

This is frequently claimed on slashdot, and it is dead wrong. By claiming under penalty of perjury to represent the copyright holder of the work in question, they certainly are claiming that the offending item is a) under copyright and b) either their work or the work of their client. If these things are not true then they should be prosecuted for perjury. Lack of due diligence should not be explained away in a puff of logic.

They should drop something else first:

[jkrise]

Their product, I mean - until it's passed a fitness certificate by a reliable agency. Dropping lawsuits is only a partial respite. The problem lies elsewhere.

Re:They should drop something else first:

[cgenman]

Their staff.

'an executive scolded programmers for leaving software files on an Internet site without password protection.'

No, an executive should have fired programmers for leaving software files on an Internet connected site without password protection. That executive then should have been fired for having such lax security practices at one of the most important NGO's in the USA today. Diebold should then be given 1 year to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's systems are secure. That year should culminate in 100 of Diebold's boxes being dropped into the yearly 2600 meeting in New York City, with any successful hack recieving 10,000 dollars and the honor of ripping up all of Diebold's contracts and co-signing the order banning the sale of Diebold election machines in the US for 20 years.

They should then go to Diebold's headquarters and salt the campus.

Seriously, giving a candidate a minus 16022? Faking demos? 25% failure rates? Intentionally making audits impossible? One of these things happening at a company selling toasters would be surprising. Three would be scandalous. But a history of gross mismanagement and neglect at a company that is the first and last word in American democracy is the highest form of the word "inexcusable." If they had done many of the things that they did intentionally, they would be arrested for treason.

There is nothing in the US constitution that says grossly incompetent companies in highly trusted positions have a right to continue to exist.

Re:They should drop something else first:

[SpaceLifeForm]

I agree with most of your points. However, firing the programmers is like killing the messenger. I've a hunch the programmers 'accidently' left the files on an Internet accessible site.

Seriously, if those files had not been left there (to be discovered), then we wouldn't know about this mess, now would we?

Re:They should drop something else first:

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, toasters rating cantidates would be quite odd, indeed. :)

Re:They should drop something else first:

[cpeterso]

I believe within the next 100 years, there will be a second Civil War. The growth of political, socio-economic, and technological divide in the US is accelerating. How long can the religious fundamentalist Big Brothers in power keep the masses fat and happy? The Medicare and Social Security pyramid schemes won't last forever. The backs of the younger generations will eventually break.

In other News:

[cablepokerface]

Kevin Mittnick very strong in the polls for the next presidential election, critics are surprised given the fact that he hasn't shown himself for some time now ...

Mittnick responded: "Erm ... it's all about getting New Hampshire I guess" as reported by out correspondend who spoke to him on IRC.

It's a harassment policy

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

Companies like Diebold and its cousin, the RIAA, know that they couldn't win an actual court case against groups like BlackBoxVoting and a bunch of college students that get in the way of their draconian agendas, but what they can do is win a warrant to send their corporate servants, the fascist pig cops to trash the place, arrest the owners, take down their websites, and confiscate all their property, most of which is never returned.

After the harassment, they then drop the suits or whatever so they don't have to lose in court, and move on to other targets. The students still haven't won anything, but as long as Diebold machines live, democracy loses. The only way around it is for everyone to cast an absentee ballot, which HAVE to be hand-counted -- but it's not like voting makes a difference in corporate America, anyways. :(

Re:It's a harassment policy

[October_30th]

Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?

I think there is way too much hysteria around electronic voting.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[maximilln]

If one considers the millions of dollars that are poured into developing electronic voting systems, and the millions of dollars spent on half-baked propaganda attempting to convince an ignorant public that such things are inherently secure, and the millions of dollars that are spent covering up for any flaws found in the system...

Well, all those millions sound pretty draconian to me. Additionally, if it takes that much money to convince someone of something then it can't be a pure honest fact.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[October_30th]

If one considers the millions of dollars that are poured into developing electronic voting systems

R&D.

and the millions of dollars spent on half-baked propaganda attempting to convince an ignorant public that such things are inherently secure

Marketing.

and the millions of dollars that are spent covering up for any flaws found in the system

Company PR.

Quite frankly, most corporations do R&D, have marketing people dreaming up ads to convince ignorant public to buy their products and try to spin bad PR into good ("It's not a bug, it's a feature").

How's Diebold any different? Sounds like circular reasoning to me. "Diebold is evil and therefore their R&D/Marketing/PR is suspicious. Because their R&D/Marketing/PR looks suspicious they must be evil."

In the end, nobody's forcing the states to buy Diebold's machines.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[plumby]

In the end, nobody's forcing the states to buy Diebold's machines.

But no one's giving the state's voters a choice of whether they should trust their votes to it or not.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Afty0r]

Being fair, if Diebold is using lobbying, PACs, and other forms of legalised bribery at the state or federal level, they are putting a gun to the voters head by proxy...the government rules by force. If the government or state, or county mandates that voters must use Diebold machines, they get no choice. They cannot turn up at the polling station and ask to have their vote registered by hand, can they?

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Anonymous Coward]

> but what they can do is win a warrant to send their
> corporate servants, the fascist pig cops to trash the place,
> arrest the owners, take down their websites, and
> confiscate all their property, most of which is never
> returned.

Tell me about it. A good friend of mine had his rig confiscated after his college reported him for illegal access to their admin system. He logged in after noticing a username and password stuck to the side of a monitor in plain view, at the counter dealing with hundreds of students a day. After emailing a quick message to admin to tell them how open their system was, 2 days later his house was raided. He was thrown out of school, lost his gear and in the end it was admitted there was a mistake and no charges would be laid.

2 PCs, 2 monitors, a cable modem, computer speakers, CDs, backups, EVERYTHING gone (including a motherboard belonging to me). Neither the university or the police know where the gear got to, both blame the other for it.

It's no democracy.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Afty0r]

Diebold isn't putting a gun to anyone's head forcing them to use Diebold machinery.

Being fair, if Diebold is using lobbying, PACs, and other forms of legalised bribery at the state or federal level, they are putting a gun to the voters head by proxy...the government rules by force. If the government or state, or county mandates that voters must use Diebold machines, they get no choice. They cannot turn up at the polling station and ask to have their vote registered by hand, can they?

Re:It's a harassment policy

[maximilln]

-----
I'm sure you would take the necessary measures to counter this.
-----
Don't be naive. You're not living in an ideal world. While everyone would like to take the necessary measures to protect their intellectual property they are, in reality, no match for large corporate entities with massive legal budgets.

-----
Oh please, you sound like a wannabe revolutionist who is blinded by your own agenda
-----
Ummm, no. The author is quite correct. In the 80s peoples' entire houses were confiscated with nothing more than an FCC suspicion that they might have a copied disk of "Space Invaders" or some other Activision game lying around. In the 90s entire dorm rooms were carted away because some student linked his page to an Eaglesoft, Inc. site. In the 2000s we're now watching computers get carted off because Britney_Spears_Another_Corporate_Tune.mp3 was made available.

-----
I would think the people would be losers if they chose to use Diebold machines knowing about the flaw. Diebold isn't putting a gun to anyone's head forcing them to use Diebold machinery
-----
Again, naive and idealistic. The people never know. The decisions are made by executives and politicians who are more interested in the skim percentage that they'll receive from signing the deal. The "people" never even see the paperwork.

-----
Voting does make a difference
-----
You're on crack. There was no real difference between Bush and Gore. It's a dog (elephant) and pony (donkey) show. In any election less than presidential the average voting percentage drops off to less than 20%. With 90% of monetary resources controlled by 10% of the people, this gives the rich (who have all the time in the world to hang out at voting booths) an easy advantage.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Motherfucking Shit]

Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?

Do you mean, like this?

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?

Well, their president promised his home state to the Republicans. How's that? Combine that with the fact that these machines are closed and, so far as we can tell, no real effort has been put into securing them or ensuring their correctness.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[HomerJayS]

They cannot turn up at the polling station and ask to have their vote registered by hand, can they?

Uhhh, yes they can. Simply request a write-in ballot.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[HMA2000]

Thank you so much for saying this. It is good to know I am not the only one that feels this way. People are so very quick to put on blinders and assume that Diebold's CEO and friends are sitting in a darkened room planning on how best to trample the rights of US citizens. The reality of the situation is probably that Diebold is trying its best to score this contract and are making some mistakes along the way. I doubt that the CEO of diebold is aware of the ire he has raised in this (slashdot) particular community and instead is listening to his legal council; who are very predictable in these areas. Has diebold made some big mistakes? Yes, no doubt about it. Is it a conscious effort on Diebold's part to look like total asses? I doubt it. But hey, its a draconian agenda right? What does that even mean?

Re:It's a harassment policy

[arkanes]

Of course nobody is "forcing" the states to buy Diebolds machine - as in all to many cases in IT, the decision to do is being made by people unaware of the problems (and it's not like Diebold reps are going to volunteer them), and who're unfamiliar with the technology, and are otherwise not really qualified to make those kind of decisions. Thats not really related to Diebolds evilness (or lack thereof).

Certainly Diebold (as a company) is incompotent and of shady ethics. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and say thats as far as it goes, and that they aren't trying to get rigged systems into place - but just barely. So many of the "features" of Diebold systems have no use I can think of except to rig sytems - in any case, intentional rigging aside, the security and integrity of the voting process was clearly not a priority at Diebold. Further, Diebold employees and reps are aware of that (they can hardly fail to be), but are willing to lie in order to thier paycheck. Depending on your viewpoint, that may or may not qualify as evil.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[gormanly]

Not sure you can automatically disqualify the guy's company for his political views or activism - but such a fundamental shift in the mechanism for expressing the will of the people shouldn't be introduced without a proper understanding of the issues involved.

Problem is, neither those running the states' electoral systems nor the electorate have a proper grasp of just how hard it is to do this properly - but then it seems Diebold don't either:

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Catbeller]

No, but do this instead: send in an absentee ballot. They have to manually count it.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[pla]

Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?

How about their CEO publically stating he would do everything he can to secure a republican victory in 2004? Sound enough like an "agenda" qualify?

You can read more about it here.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, their president promised his home state to the Republicans. How's that?

You are wrong, he didn't.

Perhaps you should become familiar with the concept of friendly joking.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Chris Burke]

The reality of the situation is probably that Diebold is trying its best to score this contract and are making some mistakes along the way.

No, the reality of the situation is (note deliberate lack of qualifying "probably") that we don't know.

What we do know is that their machines are insanely insecure, have already failed in real elections, they know about it, they have tried to cover it up instead of fixing it, and have threatened to sue those who did expose these facts.

"Benefit of the doubt" is just that. You doubt the accusations, particularly because they are unproven. However, given the evidence that does exist, I don't know how you can say that they probably aren't true.

Which isn't to say I'm not largely agreeing with you. I'm just saying don't let your skepticism of critics of Diebold turn into a lack of skepticism of Diebold. They could very well be the schemers they are accused of being, no matter how sure you are that they'd never do that.

A draconian agenda would presumeably be an agenda to get draconian laws passed. Thanks to my history schooling and fantasy-novel reading, I still reflexively think of "draconian" as "like evil lizard men" instead of "like the harsh laws passed by Draco of Athens". Funny.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[km790816]

And they gave not a small amount of money to the Republican party the last two campain cycles.

OpenSecrets.org

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Guido von Guido]

You may be right. Unfortunately, the other explanation for the mistakes they've made is that they're just plain incompetent. Their voting machines have numerous known flaws, and they've added uncertified code to them without telling anyone.

This does not make me feel any better about them. If they are incompetent, why, then some other party could tamper with an election.

I want the elections in my country to be above reproach, damn it!

Re:It's a harassment policy

[jafuser]

Perhaps professionals who hold important positions in serious matters easily prone to corruption should not joke about their potential to perform such illegal activities.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there is way too much hysteria around electronic voting.

I think there is not nearly enough.

Imagine a country where...
- People were physically prevented from voting.
- Ballot boxes were removed and replaced during the course of the election.
- All the completed boxes were trucked off to a secret location where a businessman with strong ties to the president did the counting in secret then burned the ballots before anouncing the results.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[yourmom16]

Saying you support the president is one thing, promising him Ohio's vote is much worse.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[nyseal]

Now THAT'S how it should be done....ScanTron voting! (see my sig, it was around the same time!)

Re:It's a harassment policy

[rifter]

Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?

I think there is way too much hysteria around electronic voting.

Oh, I don't know, I mean I try not to be paranoid or anything, but:

Diebold's CEO is a staunch ardent Republican (as are the rest of the management, at least teh officers) and by all accounts the company tries only to hire Republicans.

Diebold's CEO not only donates huge amounts of money to the Republican party, but has publicly promised that the machines will be key in delivering 100% of the vote to the Republican party.

The above has of course resulted in Republican politicians favouring Diebold machines over competition which is more secure and less scandalous at the moment.

Recent scandals with diebold machines have included election results in which Democratic candidates who were not even running received a very large negative number of votes.

The system is known to be easily hackable, insecure, and best of all untraceable when there are a plethora of secure traceable implementation options available. Computer voting is not a new concept for real computer scientists. Yet Diebold insists on going their way. This represents at the very least bad faith on their part but honestly it does look bad when they are deliberatley pushing a system that can be easily manipulated when they have a stated agenda and are using a certain party which they overtly support to shove their solution down the citizens' throats. Then there is the matter of the lack of reporting on these stories by media who are beholden to the same corporate interests as said party.

Call me crazy, but it smells pretty fishy in Diebold-land.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[rifter]

In the end, nobody's forcing the states to buy Diebold's machines.

Actually, they are. The purchase and use of these machines is being mandated by law. To be fair, in every election the equipment to be used is specified explicitly and in detail. Of course the applicable election laws have been in many cases broken by Diebold when they modified the machines after they had been tested and certified for use but before the election, meaning that in effect uncertified eq was being used.

So, yes, *someone* is forcing the use of these machines. Those someones are Republican politicians who therefore have direct financial ties to the company (by dint of their being Republican and the company's contributions to that party). And as someone else pointed out the voters are not being consulted or even informed on the issue. Heck, unless you read slashdot or, I dunno, indymedia or something you probably have no idea of the depth of this scandal if you even know about it at all. CNN has focused on scandals with butterfly ballots and punchcard machines, as well as the erroneous idea that butterfly ballots are inherently evil (they are not, though the one for FL2000 was poorly designed).

To be fair, it is probably difficult to understand how bad this is without at least some understanding of the technical issues involved. Especially since what seems to fly over everyone's head is that there have been freely available secure iimplementations of this application for many many decades, and the field is well defined within the body of academic research. This is not something new that diebold invented. They have, however, invented new and interesting ways to fuck it up royally through severe incompetence.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[rifter]

Perhaps professionals who hold important positions in serious matters easily prone to corruption should not joke about their potential to perform such illegal activities.

Especially when they produce a product which produces erroneous election results in which democratic candidates receive a negative number of votes and the total number of votes for Republican candidates is far larger than the number of voters. OOPS.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[rifter]

No, but do this instead: send in an absentee ballot. They have to manually count it.

Don't count on it. In the 2000 election it was revealed that in many elections officials do not even bother to count absentee ballots unless they think they will influence the election results. IN Florida, they were not counted at all until after the fact even though there were 20,000 of them and the election would have been won or lost by at most a couple hundred votes. If diebold delivers the kind of landslide they have been "joking" about it will be unlikely that absentee ballots would be counted.

Re:It's a harassment policy

[CentrX]

Even if I could ask to have my vote registered by hand, it doesn't change the fact that others will still vote using the machinery, forcing the election to use Diebold machinery, and forcing me to deal with a government by such means.

Well, it's official

[mattjb0010]

Now it's been on the Faux News / Fox Opinion channel. It must be true! As if reading about it on /. wasn't enough.

Re:Well, it's official

[squiggleslash]

There's a subtle difference. The previous Slashdot article was about Diebold not continuing to use DMCA take-down notices. There was no word at that point on whether Diebold would actually sue people who'd put up copies of its memos.

Re:Well, it's official

[mattjb0010]

The previous Slashdot article was about Diebold not continuing to use DMCA take-down notices. There was no word at that point on whether Diebold would actually sue people who'd put up copies of its memos.

No, the first page of the first linked article says "We also advise the Court that Diebold, having issued notifications in good faith compliance with the DMCA, has decided not to take the additional step of suing for copyright infringement of the materials at issue".

Re:Well, it's official

[Anonymous Coward]

Now it's been on the Faux News / Fox Opinion channel. It must be true! As if reading about it on /. wasn't enough.

Why do you call it Faux News instead of Fox News? Isn't that as lame as people calling CNN the Clinton News Network? Pick whatever news channel fits your ideology and just shutup already. Nobody cares about your witty little name calling. CNN==liberal, FoxNews==conservative. I don't see the issue. Fox News is also the highest rated news channel, so maybe there's a little concern that there are more silent conservatives out there than you think?

Re:Well, it's official

[squiggleslash]

Parent is correct and I was wrong. I was fooled by the emphasis of the two submissions. Mod me down and mattjb0010 up!

Re:Well, it's official

[fenix down]

CNN is indeed about as liberal as Bill Clinton. Which is to say, conservative. The problem is that Fox is the hulkish, raving kind of conservative, and CNN is the polite, calm kind of conservative. And then there's MSNBC, the drunken-high-school-girl-passed-out-by-the-pool kind of conservative, the kind that pays way too much attention to any story involving a black guy's penis. Indeed, there are staggering numbers of not-particularly-silent conservatives, and in fact, the country is almost universally moving to the right, evidenced by the fact that Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman are considered liberals as well as the size of Fox's audience.

Even if this is an artifact of Fox's target democraphic, and even if it's devotees are so numerous that resistance is futile, the point still remains that watching Fox appears to create a more erroneous view of the world than other sources of news. I maintain that this supports bringing up the subject of Fox's problematic accuracy whenever possible.

The EFF

[Space cowboy]

I think it's excellent that the EFF is still going after Diebold. I think it's about time that corporate-types realised that actions have consequences, and that using the law as a big stick isn't a good idea. If you have a valid argument, fine; if you're using bully-boy tactics, I think the "throw away the key" attitude approaches mine pretty closely :-)

Simon

Re:The EFF

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, those damned corporate-types. That'll teach them for employing people like you.

Commie.

Go EFF!

[Genghis9]

Nail their sorry butts to the wall
Take a chain with a ball
And bash them on the head
Till their madness is dead

(Next poster please continue)

Re:Go EFF!

[Genghis9]

Well, *ahem* I guess I'll have a go myself...

Diebold's in bed with Bush
Please kick him on the tush
When election time comes round
Crush the neocons to the ground

Re:Go EFF!

[Anonymous Coward]

Genghis9 made a silly rhyme
I don't think it's worth my time
to reply to this crap
lets go punch some democrats.

Re:Go EFF!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother me, I'm watching football.

Re:Go EFF!

[Newspimp]

Dr. Seuss is rolling in his grave right now because of that...

I'll say it for the millionth time

[Slur]

Using non-open-source software for voting machines is just plain irresponsible. Hard to believe a continent entirely peopled by convicts is so far ahead of our blind and backward political culture.

Hey, I'm a fan of the capitalist ethos as much as the next guy, but when it comes to the interests of the populous it's clearly more responsible to choose open source and open standards. Should we really trust Our Data to invisible source code written by anonymous programmers ensconced in a proprietary bubble?

I guess we shouldn't be so surprised that the elite don't have the interests of the populous at heart. Hmm, maybe there's a worm in the Capitalist apple.... It's time the Open Source Community made it clear that we are an essential element of the free market ecosystem and not some fringe element to be vilified and marginalized.

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[mattjb0010]

Using non-open-source software for voting machines is just plain irresponsible. Hard to believe a continent entirely peopled by convicts [theregister.co.uk] is so far ahead of our blind and backward political culture.

Firstly, referring to Australia as a "continent entirely people by convicts" only shows your ignorance about the history of both Australia and America. Secondly, the electronic voting only took place in the ACT, not Australia, where voting is done via pencil and paper, not electronically for the following reasons:

There is no appropriate software technology for use in full preferential voting system.
Many voters, especially the elderly and those with poor literacy and numeracy skills may have difficulty with using the internet.
There is a risk of fraud and errors occurring in software without the safeguard of paper ballots to recount.
Start up costs would be significant
The AEC would need to continue to provide traditional voting facilities for those with no internet access

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[Slur]

Oops, here's a more poignant link to those convicts I mentioned.

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[Anonymous Coward]

Many voters, especially the elderly and those with poor literacy and numeracy skills may have difficulty with using the internet.

For the elderlies, you're right. But for people with poor literacy or numeracy skills, what makes you think they can elect representative on the same footing as someone who can read?

In short, why go out of our way to make sure people who can't read can vote? I certainly don't want to be governed by someone who's been elected on the voices of people lazy enough not to learn how to read.

And no, in case you wondered, I'm not for univeral democracy : some groups of people deserve to vote less than others. People who can't read or count, apart when it's for a valid reason, such as a medical condition, are one such group. People who can't be bothered to learn how to read shouldn't have much right to express themselves, that's called meritocracy.

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[91degrees]

Not to detract from your point (I'm sure you had one in there somewhere), but you do realise that the vast majority of (non-Aboriginal) Australians are descended from the guards and other staff, not the convicts,

Really? I would have thought most of them were descended from immigrants. I also wouldn't have thought that that many convicts died. If they survived the journey they were probably strong enough to survive their sentence.

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[nomadic]

Firstly, referring to Australia as a "continent entirely people by convicts" only shows your ignorance about the history of both Australia and America

That sounds like something a CONVICT would say...

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[jefeweiss]

Yeah! And blind people too! No way no lazy blind person should be able too ... Oh, it's not their fault they're blind. Well, how do you know, maybe they were being lazy and then they poked their eye out with something. Yeah, that's it. Down with lazy people! In fact I think the constitution stricly forbids lazy and blind people from voting. And maybe Jews too, I'll have to get back to you on that. Oh wait, thats Nazi Germany, my bad.

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[Ayaress]

I don't even think it has to go so far as being entirely open-source, but it can't be closed and locked up like it is. Multiple independent firms (a mix of competitors of Diebold and companies that aren't competing with Diebold), government agencies, and (especially) the UN's election monitoring committee (I forgot the proper name for it, the one we got kicked off of after the 2000 election), and any agencies or companies they want to assess the software.

This way, plenty of people who either have no stake in the system, or have a stake in its failure, will all run the system through the wringer. If they can find any shortcomming, and then prove it in tests, then Diebold goes back to the drawing board. If Diebold can't fix it, then what they've accomplished, along with their nice fat government contract, gets passed off to another electronic voting company.

I also like a post I saw above: Placing 100 of Diebold's machines "out in the open," as a hack target with a $10,000 reward for anybody who manages to hack one in such a way that would threaten an election (Crashing it, changing counts, revealing counts before the polls close, whatever).

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[kilfarsnar]

"some groups of people deserve to vote less than others."

Is this post serious? I'm sure you're always going to be in the group that gets to vote, right? And you'll also always get to be the one who decides who is in which group. Oh, wait, no you won't, because you're an idiot. Why don't you teach people to read before you start taking away their rights?

"I certainly don't want to be governed by someone who's been elected on the voices of people lazy enough not to learn how to read."

And I certainly don't want to be governed by someone who's been elected on the voices of people lazy enough not to learn how to form a considered and informed opinion. So what's your point?

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[Slur]

Firstly, referring to Australia as a "continent entirely people by convicts" only shows your ignorance

I'll grant you that, if you'll grant me your ignorance of oblique Princess Bride references.

Re:I'll say it for the millionth time

[mattjb0010]

I'll grant you that, if you'll grant me your ignorance of oblique Princess Bride references.

Princess Bride?? Oh, right ;)

Score one for the good guys

[rm007]

Amid all the talk of corporate bully tactics that will continue until the lesson is learned, it is worth pausing to consider the potential step forward in bringing more accountability to American society. The ability of groups like the EFF and the various university groups to spread information about something that a large company wants to keep hidden (and use the full force of the legal system to do so) and keep going despite all the pressure against them is certainly a "good thing".

Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Alphanos]

Quote from story: Kind of a scary thought with all the United States went through during the Bush/Gore election, imagine the theories should a Diebold product be used in a situation like that. Either the article submittor or I has totally misunderstood something: I thought that the Diebold machines WERE used in the Bush/Gore election, and that was the source of many of the theories! Doesn't everyone else remember hearing of the memory card that gave Gore approximately -17k votes when added to the tally?

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[revscat]

Diebold machines were used widely in the 2000 election, the 2002 congressional elections, and will be similarly used in 2004. Georgia, for example, exclusively uses Diebold for their polling machines, and other states are similarly locked in (although the list escapes me at this early hour.)

The use of black-box voting systems is a threat to democracy. I believe that opposing it with violence is not only necessary but ethically justified.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[dentar]

"I believe that opposing it with violence is not only necessary but ethically justified."

Using violence does not take power away from the govenment, it gives the government MORE power.

It NEVER works. The only way for average joes to work the system is to pressure their elected things into doing so, without violence, and probably WITH the proper palm greasing.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[revscat]

Using violence does not take power away from the govenment, it gives the government MORE power.

You are right, of course. I should have been more clear: I support destroying Diebold voting machines at the polling locations. Nothing more.

My apologies. It was early.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[gormanly]

Yep.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[dentar]

That still does not accomplish anything.

The best thing anyone can do is create public outcry, and pressure the press into reporting on this sort of thing. Unfortunately, even though NPR has done a halfway decent job reporting on DIEBOLD, as compared with the other bread and circus news outlets (e.g. FAUX news) people still prefer to stick their head in the sand. Destroying a machine at a polling place will not cure apathy.

In fact, destroying their equipment will get them SYMPATHY that the sycophantic republican press is dying to give them anyway.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[shrubya]

Using violence does not take power away from the govenment, it gives the government MORE power. It NEVER works.

False. Populist uprising worked quite effectively in 1776, as well as 1215, 1789, 1917, 1953, 1989, etc.

True, right now the US Govt is way too strong (and not too hated) to be overthrown, but it's not an immutable rule.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Phattypants]

While I cannot speak for other districts, it might be interesting to note that Diebold voting systems are not used by their home state of Ohio. Here in southwest Ohio we still use the punch card/booklet voting medium.

Wouldn't it make sense to use Ohio as a testbed for such a system until it has earned certification and a thorough security audit for the underlying technology?

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Anonymous Coward]

It NEVER works.

You, like many of our politicians, seem to have forgotten how the USA got started. Don't worry, this country doesn't raise sheep. We will soon remind all of you!

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Ayaress]

I think a quote would be better than anything I can say here:

"Nobody learns anything if you punch their lights out anymore. Hell, somebody does something sick and twisted to me, and If I kill him, I'M the one who goes to jail! The only way to get anything done anymore is to sue the hell out of people.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Anonymous Coward]

The necessary ingredient for a successful rebellion hasn't been thrown into the mix yet.

What would be required is an issue so divisive as to cause division not only among civilians, but also among military men and politicians. Without such a stimumlus, there can be no hope for a successful populist campaign.

Remember that the White and Red armies both trained under the Czar...

The US is not so strong that it could stand up to half its own military force. I

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that opposing it with violence is not only necessary but ethically justified.

Mmm.... treasonlicious!

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Anonymous Coward]

I will report this post and you to the Federal Election Commission and the FBI. You will not tamper with Americans' right to vote on Election Day.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[chihowa]

I will report this post and you to the...FBI.

The scary thing is that I'm not sure anymore whether this is a joke or not. It's weird when saying anything even remotely critical of the government or policy (or the prez) gets people looking at you with that "you're a terrorist" look in their eyes.

Admittedly, the parent of the parent was talking about commiting an illegal act that would really only deprive the people of a county (or part thereof) the place to express their vote. This is arguable, but not the point of my post.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Chester K]

Using violence does not take power away from the govenment, it gives the government MORE power. It NEVER works.

Except when it does.

For further reading, look up the history of any country on Earth.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[kilfarsnar]

"You, like many of our politicians, seem to have forgotten how the USA got started."

Oh, right! Genocide! Now there's a tactic we should bring back. It is certainly effective.

"...this country doesn't raise sheep."

Well then they must have come from somewhere else, because I'm surrounded by them.

Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's weird when saying anything even remotely critical of the government or policy (or the prez) gets people looking at you with that "you're a terrorist" look in their eyes.

You somehow missed the fact that he didn't say anything critical of governemnt or policy. Nice try spinning it that way, though.

He advocated the use of violence to disrupt the rights of other Americans to vote on Election Day.

That is illegal, and he has, in fact, been reported to the FEC and the FBI.

Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright law

[Genghis9]

Has anybody done this? Really, a great way to reclaim the system from corporate buyout is to buy it back. Think about it, if 10 million geeks contribute a buck each that could be some serious cash to sway the average money-chasing pol. With the internet it would be really easy to get the word out: Slashdot, BoingBoing etc the birth of the group vigorously and overnight a powerful group could be born. There are plenty of geeks who could contribute to running a site and then it would be a matter of hiring experienced Washington operators to do the slimy work.

It would be like a Howard Dean phenomena, except aiming to restore sanity to digital and non-digital intellectual property laws. First task: repeal the DMCA. Then, get rid of the hideous Sonny Bono legislation. Public opinion would overwhelmingly be behind the efforts too.

What do Slashdotters think. Time to start a revolution right here, right now?

Treating the symptom, not the problem

[iamdrscience]

They scolded their programmers for leaving software files available without a password? Sure, they probably shouldn't be doing that, but really isn't the problem that their software was riddled with design and security problems? If Diebold can't even protect files and memos they don't want to get out then how can they be trusted to build a system that protects our votes!?

Re:Treating the symptom, not the problem

[gormanly]

that, but really isn't the problem that their software was riddled with design and security problems?

That's a pretty common problem with Diebold systems though - they give a very good impression of having no understanding at all of any computer security concepts... pop quiz, would you rather trust them with your votes or your money?

Fuckwits can't even make their ATMs safe from Windoze RPC DCOM worms after M$ put out the patch. Though what we're doing allowing cash machines to run M$OS (with RPC turned on!) is beyond me.

There's no "should" about it

[smchris]

"Kind of a scary thought with all the United States went through during the Bush/Gore election, imagine the theories should a Diebold product be used in a situation like that. "

You obviously haven't seen the documents. The most famous is:

I need some answers! Our department is being audited by the County. I have been waiting for someone to give me an explanation as to why Precinct 216 gave Al Gore a minus 16022 when it was uploaded. Will someone please explain this so that I have the information to give the auditor instead of standing here "looking dumb".

Lana Hires - Volusia County Florida - January 17, 2001 8:07 AM

The very point of releasing the documents is that a Diebold product helped _create_ a situation like that.

Devil's Advocate

[segment]

Firstly here is linke to the registration free NYTimes article (so sue me). While I too think it's great that the EFF fights for genuine causes, again, why is it that when a company fights for something they believe is fair (protection of property, reputation, etal) a bad thing?. I am not protecting Diebold, but it's a farce to believe that one is advocating freedom of whatever, while bashing a company who just might truly believe they have substance.

Now realistically, Diebold's issues were exposed, so no matter what, this will affect them. After the issues surrounding Gore/Bush, if something did happen again, I wouldn't blame Diebold, I would blame those who went ahead and used the machines Diebold supplied. You remember that bringing the horse to the water story don't you? I could never explain it better. People have a short attention span, and the people would literally be the ones to blame for using Diebold's equipment from the point of the problems first being announced.

Now when you state something like a throw away the key approach, you're one of those same jurors those evil, condescending, malicious, gestapoish corporations look for to sit on a panel and make rash judgments.

Suppose Diebold first thought their intellectual property was at stake, or the livelihood of their business was at stake; is it wrong for them to fight for what they believe in. Maybe they saw he truth after being blinded and retracted the lawsuit, ever think about this for a minute? It's called being fair and analysing the situation.

Re:Devil's Advocate

[Space cowboy]

[grin] I'll give you a fair and balanced viewpoint when you promise me "the system" will give me the same ...

Simon.

Re:Devil's Advocate

[segment]

When the system is broken what do you do upgrade?, don't you. [smirk] (I would hope so) If you chose to use crap who would be the moron you or the vendor

</twocoppercoins>

Re:Devil's Advocate

[arkanes]

Sa I truly, honestly, believe that black people are inferior to whites and therefore I, in my official capacity as a government employee, do my best to ensure that benefits and such go to white people and not black people. Should I be punished for what I believe in?

It doesn't matter if Diebold (insofar as there is a "Diebold" and not just a grouping of people) truly believes that it's DMCA takedown notices are a legitimate, honest use of the law, although I find it difficult to believe that - it's far more likely that they don't give two shits about the legitimacy of it, and instead are trying to supress information that makes them look bad in an utterly predictable corporate behavior. Thier ACTIONS are reprehensible, at least to me. Thier motives aren't really relevent.

Re:Devil's Advocate

[Sylver Dragon]

While its fair that a company (Diebold in this case) should be allowed to believe that they are being wronged. If they act on that belief (sending DMCA takedown notices) and are found to be wrong, they should be held responsible. In this case, it would appear to me, that the EFF is trying to ensure that Diebold is held responsible for misusing DMCA takedown notices. Despite all of its flaws there are provisions for companies who misuse the DMCA takedown notices, and that is what the EFF (by proxy) is pursuing them about. Its not about sticking it to some mythincal "man", its about proper punishment for misuse of the legal system. If anything, this is a good thing, a big company is (hopefully) about to get smacked down for abusing the system.

Re:Devil's Advocate

[Maxwell'sSilverLART]

So I truly, honestly, believe that black people are inferior to whites and therefore I, in my official capacity as a government employee, do my best to ensure that benefits and such go to white people and not black people. Should I be punished for what I believe in?

No.

You should, however, be punished for what you do. There's a world of difference there; one is thoughtcrime, the other is an action. Or, to borrow a phrase, "Thier ACTIONS are reprehensible, at least to me. Thier motives aren't really relevent."

Get the memos here!

[skyfaller]

You can get the memos at the Swarthmore Coalition for the Digital Commons website... this is the campus group that was started by the two students who are suing Diebold.

Re:Get the memos here!

[Anonymous Coward]

started by the two students who are suing Diebold.

Shouldn't that be "In Soviet Swarthmore Students sue Diebold!"?

It appears to me

[Karl Cocknozzle]

That Diebold is now realizing the folly of opening themselves to discovery that filing a suit against the sites hosting the data would open them to. After all, if I go to court and claim I'm running an investigative report, the truthfulness of my report becomes a legitimate issue in court. If you're Diebold, do you really want it to be a matter of public record that your equipment is insecure, poorly designed, and easily manipulated?

And more mirrors

[skyfaller]

And if you kill the SCDC website, you can get a complete list of mirrors at papertrailpatriots.org and Why-War.

Are they open source now?

[cluge]

an executive scolded programmers for leaving software files on an Internet site without password protection.

I think we can call this "Open source by accident", or perhaps "Almost Open Source", then again "Effectively Open Source" sounds good as well. I for one would like to thank Diebold for leaving the source code were we can all look at it.

On to a more serious matter - the code SHOULD be open to scrutiny, especially by third party, independant coders. Then again, running on top of a MS OS, that may have a virus or back door scare me. What about a voteing machine that runs from a bootabel CD-Rom? The results are all kept in memory with a line printer and some smart cryptography as a backup/confirmation? It shouldn't be hard, the CD's could be inspected post election to make sure that the voting program code wasn't tampered with (unlike hard drives where I could tamper with the code and no one owuld know it). Seems to me the open source community could do a lot better in short order. PS the username and password for the open source code would be anonymous and myvotcounts@fukudiebold.com

Re:Are they open source now?

[DataCannibal]

Why is it that everytime a story about some problem with voting machines comes up yet another Slashdotter (yawn) comes up with yet another idea (yawn)for building a system that anyone could pick holes in in less than five minutes when the answer is that voting machines are not needed for elections?

The way to design any system is to start off by defining what it is that a system is supposed to achieve. The only answer that you can then come up with is a secret ballot on paper voting slips.

How hard is it to understand people? Names and boxes on paper, a pencil and ballot boxes and a counting that is open to verification are all the are needed.

Re:Are they open source now?

[some guy I know]

Names and boxes on paper, a pencil and ballot boxes and a counting that is open to verification are all the [sic] are needed.

Ever heard of erasers?
Perhaps you meant "pens".
Also, individual voting slips can be "misplaced".
At any rate, your (non-machine) method would require hand-counting by humans, and studies have shown that the more humans are placed into the mix, the more inaccurate are the results.
What is needed is a way to remove humans from the voting process entirely.

Re:Are they open source now?

[chihowa]

What is needed is a way to remove humans from the voting process entirely.

Because this is impossible (humans will need to instruct the machine that will replace them), the system needs to be completely transparent to all (or a large number of) humans. Lessening the number of humans involved will just increase the probability of fraud. Hundreds of thousands of people with different goals (even if they are all bent on rigging the election) will have less of a total impact than one programmer (even among a small team) who writes software for a machine than counts all of the votes in the country.

What you are asking for is impossible (to remove ALL humans from the counting process), so your argument is wrong. Inaccurate results are not as much a danger as accurate-then-altered results.

Draconian evidence..

[Channard]

Well, I did notice their lawyer seemed to be a bit scaly. And I'm sure I saw wisps of smoke coming from their nostrils. Oh, wait, not *that* kind of draconian evidence..

Gentoo voting machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

1 standalone CD, all source-code wipes the system clean, builds and installs the system storing votes on secure media, CD's available on-request to those who want them, the one used on the day taken randomly from the box of a few hundred which are given out to the voters.

I can examine the ballet paper, I can watch the ballet box take my slip of paper and see it opened at the counting station, not having some level of proof that it's actually doing what it's supposed to do is a rather poor system.

Re:Gentoo voting machines?

[snol]

You could still install a different Gentoo on the harddrive. Rig it to say "Boot from CD..." at bootup, set the BIOS to boot from the harddrive first, and rig the voting program to favor your party. Though if they printed out ballots as well you'd have a pretty hard time pulling it off.

Hey, SexyKelly, do you remember this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I posted this more than a year ago, (click Parent a few times), just wondering if you remember our little tete-a-tete. And I'm thinking, like, holy shit. We've both been cruising Slashdot for more than a year...

Re:Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright

[HomerJayS]

Think about it, if 10 million geeks contribute a buck each that could be some serious cash to sway the average money-chasing pol.

Great idea. All /.ers please send me your $ and I'll ensure that it gets put to good use lobbying your Congresscritters on a nice warm beach somehwere.

How much can it cost to build?

[bearclaw]

Does anyone have any idea how much a secure and reliable alternative to the Diebold voting machines would cost to produce?

I mean, we plan on spending almost $3 billion in farm aid for 2004 - why can't we just set aside $100MM for a secure, reliable, verifiable voting platform? Would that be enough money?

??

Re:How much can it cost to build?

[Anonymous Coward]

Farm aid is important. Dumping cash into an alternative to something that already works, however, is not important.

Besides, what business does the Federal Government have in developing touch-screen voting systems?

Let the free market deliver the product at a fraction of the cost if it's even needed.

Re:How much can it cost to build?

[bearclaw]

How can you support the free market and support farm aid? Most farming is done by corporations now, not families. I think the only good thing about farm aid is it helps to lower prices of the product, but that isn't even good some times.

The point I'm trying to make is why not spend some public money on the issue. IF we are already having some private firm develop the means, why not spend a decent amount of money and deliver a great product?

And as for the federal gov't having the right to develop touch-screen voting, well, I'm pretty sure they are charged with deciding how elections are run (via the constitution) - though some state powers may overlap.

I agree with you - paper and pencil works fine. But we are moving into a touch-screen voting system. No amount of "but pencil works fine!" arguing is going to change that. So that being said, the gov't need to step in and do the right thing.

Re:How much can it cost to build?

[rakerman]

A secure and reliable alternative to the Diebold voting machines would be a pen and a piece of paper. How much would that cost?

Re:How much can it cost to build?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Asutralian electronic voting system (Linux-based, Open-Source) cost $125,000 Australian dollars (about US $80,000) and took three months to implement a trial system that was used in elections and verified to be completely accurate. This figure includes independent auditing of the code.

All you need is decent companies who care about democracy, not profits. We have tons of such companies in Australia, I dunno about the US. Maybe you should outsource your democracy to Australia We can do it cheaper and better, it seems.

Just make it simple, and it will be cheap. You don't need many "features" apart from basic security and usability. In fact, the fewer features, the better.

Re:Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright

[herrvinny]

Yeah, sure, $10 million against the multibillion dollar RIAA. $10 million is chump change to them.

hey maybe, voting really can change something now

[i621148]

because they need to further expose the fact that these machines are insecure puppets for nixonlike manipulation also if this can happen to one of their products: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns999 94425 Cash dispensing ATMs belonging to two US financial institutions were shut down when the computer worm Welchia invaded their embedded Windows XP operating systems in August. Diebold, the Ohio-based company that makes the machines, revealed the security breach on Tuesday. why not all of their products...

The AP version made me cringe

[ianscot]

Electronic voting firm drops legal case

By RACHEL KONRAD
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- In a major victory for free speech enthusiasts on the Internet, Diebold Inc. has agreed not to sue voting rights advocates who publish leaked documents about the alleged security breaches of electronic voting...

"Enthusiasts"? Sort of makes it sound like the Bill of Rights is a remote-controlled airplane, doesn't it? (Hey, what's your hobby? Mine is living in a free society... That and Pinochle.)

Odd word choice in an odd story altogether. (Diebold, a banking company that makes ATMs, bought out this voting machine company. Amazing how their expertise in the one area seemingly doesn't translate. I mean, this story starts when someone cracks into their e-mail system using an employee's ID. Bad start to a story about the lack of security, yes? The e-mails show a geuinely cavalier attitude about the perception of their clients -- bizarre in a banker, you'd think. Then they bluster around sending their C&D letters, the effect only being to make their problems more conspicuous. Does this make sense in a company that makes banking equipment? You'd think they'd have their PR act together. Bankers do not project this sort of cavalier bluster.)

Re:The AP version made me cringe

[bhima]

The thing that amazes me is that most news outlets are treating this as if it were about as important as a model airplane meet (or a pinochle tourny)

Re:The AP version made me cringe

[dido]

Apparently, Diebold's ATM machines aren't worth squat either. Some of them actually got hit by the Nachi worm. So there you folks in the United States are, forced to entrust your votes and your money to a company that doesn't seem to know the first thing about security, and has made its partisan bias clearly known. :(

Re:The AP version made me cringe

[Anonymous Coward]

Freedom is always at risk so long as the major media is dominated by leftists and liberals. Get out there and support independent media! That's the only way around this.

Re:The AP version made me cringe

[kilfarsnar]

"Freedom is always at risk so long as the major media is dominated by leftists and liberals."

That's debatable, but I think it should have read, "Freedom is always at risk so long as the major media is dominated by huge monolithic corporations with their own agenda." It just flows off the tongue, don't you think?

Re:The AP version made me cringe

[Le Marteau]

Amazing how their expertise in the one area seemingly doesn't translate.

Expertise? Not in my experience. I had one of their machines cancel a transaction on me, spit out my card but no money, but my account was still debited. My bank found and manually fixed the error a couple of days later.

Support HR 2239

[mdwebster]

HR 2239 is a bill in a House committee right now that Slashdotters should get behind. Also known as the "Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2003," this bill introduces, among others, two major provisions worthy of support.

The first is that every electronic voting machine shall leave behind a verified-by-the-voter paper receipt for recount purposes. This, of course, gives the voters an understandable avenue of recourse in the case of a suspect election.

The second is that all source code for running the machine shall be made available to the public. Not quite open-source, but, shall we say, viewable-source. This would allow security experts to check the code behind the voting-machine companies to make sure that it is secure.

Please check this website to see if your congresscritter is part of the Committee on House Administration and urge them to vote this bill out of committee. Even if they're not, showing support to your congressperson could lead to increased pressure on those in the committee to vote the bill out.

Re:Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright

[jefeweiss]

I'm not so sure this parent is insightful. The billions of dollars is gross income made by media corporations. The RIAA is not selling music to anyone. The RIAA is just a PR organization that large music corporations give money to. I'd be willing to bet that the total budget of the RIAA is closer to 10 million dollars then 100 million dollars. I seriously doubt that major music corporations would be willing to donate much more of their operating income then that. Unless, of course, they get some kind of tax deduction for funding a "non-profit" trade promoting group.

diebold has only one option...

[Lumpy]

They wat to gain trust? Open Source ALL code in relation to the voting machines.

Until they do that I do not trust, and will not trust any voting machine products they sell, and will advise others to also not trust them.

Re:Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright

[lakema]

I think this is a great idea. In fact it is one that has been put into practice by several blogs. Both Atrios and Daily Kos have taken up collections which have gotten them meetings with the head of the Democratic National Committee. Slashdot could easily raise enough money to get Cowboy Neal an audience with Committee Chairmen or even Dick Cheney in his undisclosed location.

Write in your vote

[popo]

Send your vote by mail.

Pick up the phone

[Walkingshark]

Pick up the phone and call your local county voting authority, and ask them if they use diebold machines. If so, bring a hammer on voting day. You know what to do.

-Mike

Re:Pick up the phone

[Anonymous Coward]

What, use it to deny your fellow Americans their right to vote? Real classy, there.

Jerkoff.

Meet the guy who designed the code

[p.zed]

http://www.guylancaster.com_________ Software Engineer, contract 1991 - 2001 Global Election Systems Inc. (now Diebold Election Systems), Vancouver, BC, Canada Development and support of embedded systems firmware and host communications software. Developed a TCP/IP/PPP protocol stack to run under the uC/OS real-time operating system. The stack was based mostly on BSD sources and has been re-released as the uC/IP project on SourceForge (http://ucip.sourceforge.net). The stack is used in the current central count product and has been ported by others into several other commercial embedded systems. Developed secure Internet based protocols for transmitting election information and results. Designed and developed a compiler and interpreter for an embedded report generator system known as AccuBasic. Designed and developed a central count election system in which ballot scanners pass raw images directly to the central server running Progress 4GL. This required a bi-directional variation of the proprietary communications protocol used at the time. System administration, Web development, and technical writing. Developed an intranet Web site which has significantly improved internal communications. Maintained the Linux based email, FTP, and intranet servers for the Vancouver office. Wrote developer documentation and drafted materials for inclusion in user guides.

Re:EFF suing because of 17 USC 512(f)

[sunbird]

The key here is 17 U.S.C. 512(f) which holds copyright owners such as Diebold responsible for abusing the provisions of the DMCA. Also check out section 4 of EFF's application for a temporary restraining order (PDF is here) which outlines the claims against Diebold under the DMCA.

Although Diebold has agreed not to take any further action in these cases, that doesn't make up for the fact that they have blatantly abused the DMCA provisions in the past. It's kind of like being run over by a car, and then having the driver say, "well, I won't drive anymore." It doesn't exactly make you whole.

Also, OPG has asserted an interference with contractual relations claim-- essentially saying that Diebold is interfering with the contract between Hurricane Electric (the ISP) and its client, OPG. See section 3 of the application for a temporary restraining order.

Re:hey maybe, voting really can change something n

[jacem]

It seems very very odd to me that a company that make ATMs should have such profound security issues in one of their products. ATMs leave a great deal of a paper trail. (I assume never having gotten inside one.) So why did they design the voting machine without a paper trail. JACEM

US Rep Kucinich caused this by linking to memos

[Cryofan]

I cannot believe no one has mentioned that Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich almost certainly caused this to happen by linking to the diebold memos on his US Congressional website, and by calling for a congressional investigation of Diebold's legal actions.

Kucinich appears to be one of the few politicians who will stand up for the citizen againt the corporations. He is certainly the only presidential candidate to do so....

Re:US Rep Kucinich caused this by linking to memos

[Anonymous Coward]

Kucinich appears to be one of the few politicians who will stand up for the citizen againt the corporations. He is certainly the only presidential candidate to do so....

And now you know why he'll lose. Seriously, does anybody give a shit about Kucinich, of all people? Bush will win in 2004.

Re:US Rep Kucinich caused this by linking to memos

[kilfarsnar]

I give a shit about Dennis Kucinich. But I agree that he has a snowball's chance in hell. It is important though to have our elected representatives standing up to corporations. Corporations don't give a shit about you or me except as a source of revenue. When they start calling the shots in Washington, as they have begun to, it is not in the public's interest; it is in their own. And those interests are often incongruent with the public's. According to the Constitution our country belongs to it's citizens, not corporations. That's worth standing up for.

Re:US Rep Kucinich caused this by linking to memos

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush will win in 2004.

Really? I'm no democrat, but the way things are going, a rotten grapefruit would probably beat Bush in the next election.

Assuming that they're fair, of course.

Re:US Rep Kucinich caused this by linking to memos

[Anonymous Coward]

Economy's great and he has two successful military campaigns under his belt. Unless he pisses off the conservative base any more in the next 11 months, it's George until 2008.

Presidential candidate Kucinich is co-sponsor

[Cryofan]

US Rep and presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich is the co-sponsor of this bill, shown on his website.

If you slashdotters want someone who will back you and fight for you on Internet and software issues, Dennis Kucinich is the man. Diebold would probably still be going on with the lawsuits if Dennis had not defied Diebold by publishing links to the memos on his website.

Re:Presidential candidate Kucinich is co-sponsor

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you want someone who will cave on the War on Terrorism, undermine America at home and abroad, and basically hand the United States over to the corrupt UN, Kucinich is the man.

"Kucinich for President: Because America was never really that great to begin with."

Re:Presidential candidate Kucinich is co-sponsor

[Matthew Austern]

HR2239 and evoting machines shouldn't be a partisan issue. Yes, Kucinich seems to be a decent man if you happen to share his political views. But everyone, no matter what their political views are, should care about honest and accurate elections.

Re:Presidential candidate Kucinich is co-sponsor

[Anonymous Coward]

"...Because America was never really that great to begin with."

Wow! A sense of perspective from an American "patriot." That's not something you see evey day.

Re:Presidential candidate Kucinich is co-sponsor

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes me wonder why Kucinich thinks that way.

New York Times Detected

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh oh, someone linked to the New York Times. Better double-check the facts to make sure they're not lying again.

HA HA HA

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I get it! You called it FAUX NEWS! HA HA! You're so hip! And keen! Man, you are possibly the FUNNIEST PERSON EVER for calling Fox News FAUX NEWS! Give yourself a PAT ON THE BACK for calling Fox News FAUX NEWS! Sir, YOU SHOULD DO STAND-UP!

Prick.

Re:HA HA HA

[Anonymous Coward]

Get used to it, kid. Liberals are BACK!!!

Kucinich wants investigation of Diebold DMCA abuse

[Cryofan]

At this end of this article , Congressman and Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich calls for the U.S. House Judiciary Committee to investigate Diebold's DMCA takedown notices and their abuse of the DMCA. He also wants to stop other corporate abuse of the DMCA.

Kucinich: Out of touch with America and Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

A vote for Kucinich is a vote for a Socialist

Court Suit Still Pending.

[Irvu]

While Diebold has backed down it is still not clear that their actions were "wrong" (in the legal sense). According to the EFF the case is still pending. The battle isn't over completely. Lest we forget the machines are still in use.

Have you told congress to Verify The Vote?
Sign the petition here

No choice anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

If electors continue to use Diebold machines, supporters of the various political candidates will have no choice but to employ hackers in an attempt to win the vote. Certainly they can take the "high road" and not hack these machines, but how long can these parties continue when it is impossible to actually defeat your opponent by purely ethical means? Perhaps another (less undemocratic) solution would be to hack these machines and render them useless, thereby forcing the elections authorities to deal with the issue.

Re:No choice anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you think that there aren't already competing entities trying to hack the machines?

You need to re-read those diebold memos. Notice the engineers saying "Gee, we can't figure out what sort of hardware failure could cause this problem! It's completely irreproducible in the lab!"

I mean, DUH.

Diebold still suing

[fiannaFailMan]

Just on the subject of still suing, from the article:

The North Canton, Ohio-based Diebold .... said it will continue to monitor the online proliferation of the leaked documents, and may sue others who publish the data

They haven't gone away you know! We'd better keep an eye on this.

Amen, brother

[Rick Zeman]

Representative Rush Holt of New Jersey, who has introduced a bill requiring that digital voting machines leave a paper trail and that their software be available for public inspection, is occasionally told that systems lacking these safeguards haven't caused problems. "How do you know?" he asks.

Indeed! It's what we don't know about that we have to be worried about.

Open Source alternative?

[Gorimek]

Everybody is calling for an Open Source alternative to Diebold and their brethren, but is anyone bothering to actually write it?

If there actually was an alternative system, it would probably be more likely to outcompete Diebold than mere talk and complaining. Especially if it were written by unpaid volonteers and sold at a much lower price by a non profit foundation.

As many have said, it doesn't seem a terribly difficult task to count a few thousand events over a day in a secure and verifiable manner. Looks like a perfect Open Source project to me.

Re:Open Source alternative?

[HomerJayS]

Everybody is calling for an Open Source alternative to Diebold and their brethren, but is anyone bothering to actually write it?

Everyone is waiting for someone else to write it, so they can get the OS code 'for free' and market their own voting machines.

This illustrates one problem with the OS movement in general. It is slowwwww to react to the market. Diebold saw a market opportunity and jumped at it. Capitalism 101

Re:Open Source alternative?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh. Please do your research, or at least read the threads before posting. Australia developed an Open Source, Linux-based accountable voting system 2 years ago for AU$125,000 that has been declared accurate in election use.

Re:MOD STORY DOWN !

[RudyValencia]

Don't forget goatse!

Absentee ballots

[Mycroft_514]

Bzzz, wrong answer.

In many states (like mine) if you file an absentee ballot, you still fill out a standard optical form (or whatever form is being used by your county) and it is entered into the voting machine by person(s) in the elections staff.

So, using absentee ballots DOES NOT equate to voting by hand.

Further, I second the opinion of many that the elections staff may not know how to even properly operate their equipment. During the 2000 elections I saw an example on TV. The Supervisor of Elections for Orange County FL should have been arrested for VOTE FRAUD!

He was on tv congratulating his people on the fine job they had done during the recounts, then described the method they used. Orange County used Optical mark sense pages (you know, blacken the ovals or whatever). Their "solution" was to examine the sheets and manually determine which ones were not read and then count those "votes" over again.

Excuse me? How can a human determine which votes were not readable? They should have set up the machine to stop on non-countable votes, and then count those pages. Any other method was just vote manufacturing (oh, and in that county, manufacturing for Gore, BTW).

my .02$

Re:Absentee ballots

[HomerJayS]

I did not say absentee ballot. I said write-in ballot.

All polling places MUST provide a means to vote for a candidate that is not on the ballot. This is done by physically writing the candidate's name and office on a form provided by the polling place.

There is no reason why you can't "write in" a name that is already on the official ballot. All write in votes are tabulated manually. Just make sure you spell their name correctly (lest Howerd Deen get just one vote in your precinct).

Re:hey maybe, voting really can change something n

[fenix down]

One counts votes, the other counts money. Of course we know which of those is imortant enough to allow for recounts and which isn't.

Re:Kucinich: Out of touch with America and America

[kilfarsnar]

Right, cuz socialism is always bad and capitalism is always good. I mean, what kind of pinko would support things like unemployment insurance and social security and other socialist programs that honest hard-working people shouldn't have to contribute to? Hell, when have we in the tech industry ever needed unemployment? If you have little money and lose your job and your child gets sick, tough. I guess you should have been rich.

Lobby for an OSS grant

[alexborges]

Dear US Gov,

Offer 1Million dollars for an Open Source embeded project that can go into the cheapest, bsd or linux supported open architecture box of your choice.
Make a panel of experts to evaluate the projects and choose the best one.

Then make a licitation to building and servicing the boxes with the resulting software on it.

The total cost of your eVoting process will be kept, for all of the United States, depending on the box you choose, between 10 and 50 million dollars without any need for extra investment for the next 5 to 10 years. Plus the code will be openly inspectionable and the people that made it will be identified and held responsible for mantaining the code.

Now, how is that dificult or how does Diebold give you a better value-proposition?

Think gaddamit think!

Agendas

[Anonymous Coward]

"Draconian" is probably a poor choice of words. "Unconsitutional", "reprehensible", and "illegal" would have been better adjectives:

- President of company promises to deliver a state. He may have intended this is in the sense of "I will try" but he has no way to guarantee the outcome without resorting to the illegal means he has at his disposal.

- In at least one election, the company knowingly modified their software after the verification was complete and subsequently lied in an effort to conceal the fact.

- Numerous emails discuss the user's ability to modify the election results as a desired feature.

- The software itself appears to be specifically written in a way that makes it very easy to guarantee a specific outcome and impossible to trace changes. In particular, automatic numbering of log entries was explictly disabled. Automatic numbering makes it very difficult to conceal the removal or addition of log entries. In addition, several copies of the voter records are maintained and different record sets are used to provide verification and actual tallies. In an uncooked election, these data sets would always be identical which raises the question of why they went to the additional effort of generating extra copies of the data. The software suite also includes a utility to change the modification timestamp on any file. Such a utility would normally in a circumstance where one wanted to conceal the fact that a file was modified after a certain time or date. In this case, it may have been a kuldge to fix a problem. The emails provide evidence that a date/time dependency built into the software was not functioning correctly during at least one election. Of course, if that is the case, one has to wonder what behaviours were time dependant.

Why does ANYONE want these machines?

[Le Marteau]

I don't understand how ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about computers can go for these computer based voting machines. Even the knuckleheads in government who recommended moving over to these machines have GOT to have used a computer at some time in their parasitic existance... and probably Windows at that. Have they never had to re-boot, and lost their work? Have they not experienced for themselves the unreliablity of most computer systems?

Another thing... why are people so hard for getting the results of an election the very same frickin' night? What's the damn rush? Just use paper ballots, hire some old ladies to count 'em up over the span of a week, and relax, knowing that there's a paper trail.

Sigh

[some guy I know]

The last line was a joke.
Of course humans can't be removed from the voting process; they're the ones who vote!

However, I stand by the rest of my statement: studies have shown that the more humans are placed into the mix, the more inaccurate are the results.
If you want to argue with the studies, fine.

I totally agree with you that the system (the whole system) needs to be completely transparent to anybody and everybody who wants to look at it, except for those parts that would reveal the way that a particular voter voted.

Whoosh

[chihowa]

Seriously, though, I agree with the studies, but I feel that loss of accuracy (recorded votes corresponding to actual votes) isn't terribly detrimental except in very close races. As long as there isn't some vast conspiracy working very efficiently, the results will be inaccurate but not consistantly skewed in any one direction.

I feel that inaccuracies such as these will overall be less harmful than computer counted extremely accurate systems that are in the control of only a few hands.

It seems that we're both in favor of a transparent system, I'm just thinking that a vast slow dinosaur of a system (hand counting), as inaccurate as it may be, is not as easily hijacted as the proposed (and probably inevitably accepted) computer voting machines.

In their current form, computer voting systems can never be transparent. The process of making them transparent would cause them to lose all of the benefits that they are sought after for. Cheers

Re:Whoosh

[chihowa]

Hmmm, it seems that slashcode takes anything in slanty brackets as a markup tag...

Whoosh is the sound of jokes flying over my head after too little sleep.

In Maryland we're fighting Diebold tooth and nail!

[redaphid]

We are a recently formed group of concerned citizens who are pressuring the state to adopt a voter verified paper audit trail as a first step toward some form of accountability. A big argument has been the cost of adding printers, but apparently Diebold has started giving them away. "Diebold has agreed to modify the county's machines for free by the 2006 deadline so voters can review a printout of their ballots before casting them." Campaign for Verified Voting in Maryland