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Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
But an obvious solution, I guess, is simply to not recommend Dell to your friends and family. Not that I ever did in the first place.
If you buy a Dell, they support the hardware and software they sold you. They don't support random crap you decided to download from the Internet, nor will they be able to answer your cooking questions. Why does this surprise people?
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Spyware is a pain in the neck to remove (regedit anyone?), and tech support for removing it probably costs them a fortune.
This just sounds like a semi-good excuse to me.
Why don't they just refuse to put these software titles on their computers. I feel if a company thinks it can steal your data, it shouldn't be forced upon users and potential new users.
After a quick RTFA, I see:
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
Emphasis mine.
So there's no spyware known to be shipped on Dells. That's good at least. On to the memo.
NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.
What?? They won't support third party utilities that muck around in your registry and delete files in your system directory? Those bastards!
Seriously, nothing to see here folks. It's common sense.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Now, of course, you can violate the EULA and get yourself some spyware removing tools and be ride of it.
Its a whole other story though, if Dell starts advising people to break these agreements. Granted, they are legally gray, but thats the point entirely of not wanting to get into the fray and being a potential party to breaking a contractual agreement.
A lawsuit avoided entirely is better than a lawsuit won.
-
not only that, you could you argue that it was an endorsement from dell. if you end up frying your system from using some software the dell tech told you to use, dell might be found liable
Winter 2010: With Glowing Hearts
All Dell is saying that they can't endorse any spyware removal software. They are not endorsing any spyware. Most likely this is only to save Dell from any legal entanglements. Legally they might be liable to spyware companies if they intervene on user's behalf. If you read the last line, they are telling their reps that they can give personal testimonials but cannot do so for the company. While this is not an ideal solution, we do live in a litigious society.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Well, I was starting to type a message about how disappointed I was with Dell, given all the money I've thrown them. Then, I RTFA for a change and this may not be as bad as it seems.
Dell may just be concerned about legal issues with helping Joe User de-install some software where the EULA requires the Spyware to be running -- Dell would be the ones with the deep pockets after all. And, some spyware removal that involves registry changes might destablize things in some way (I don't know). Probably more corporate lawyer nonsense than a misguided attempt to support spyware in its various forms.
Some program installs come with spyware, and the license agreement does require leaving it alone (since that's the compensation they get for the free software). So, Dell may just not want to step into the middle of this.
Maybe the finger should stay focused on the spyware creaters and bundlers for the time being...
Sleep is for the Weak
This is what I always end up doing for family and friends. In the future I will end up working on their computer anyway they go (most of you probally have the same experience). When I work on it I would like to have the most knowledge of the software/hardware configuration.
It sucks that they have to do this, but I can't say I'm surprised. Having worked in tech support for years, there are always crazy rules about things you "can't do" -- and every good tech I've ever worked with breaks them on a routine basis, when they think it will make the customer happy.
These days we buy the hardware and, sure the preloaded software probably sucks, so you reconfigure what you want or possibly even reinstall your OS. No problem!
But what happens when the hardware is in cahoots with the operating system, as will be the case with trusted computing? Well it may be a lot more difficult to get your computer to do what you want, because certain software components carrying the right keys will easily slide into operating system hooks, while un-"trusted" software (the stuff you want to run) is more difficult to install and run freely.
I can imagine what a spyware-sporting vendor can accomplish with a trusted computing system. Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control. 3rd party efforts to keep this unwanted software out of the system will fail, because that 3rd party software (no matter what you want) is untrusted... hell, the BIOS itself will help police usage of the system. You're in luck, your hardware is going to protect you ;)
OK, this spyware thing is just one example. The fact is that Dell has just lost touch with their home user customer base. One thing I've learned from working with Dell for the past few years is that they don't give a flip about the home users... But then again, why should they? They make money off corporate/government contracts, not supporting grannies who don't know where the any key is.
After having such good experiences with Dell in the Office, we started recommending people buy Dell for their home, too. Oh boy BIG mistake. The hardware is substandard, just about every default installation is munged somehow or another, and the things generally stop working within a year. *NO ONE* I know has gotten a good Dell home PC recently. Meanwhile we noticed a definite decrease in quality of customer support in the past year...
Me: Here's an article from Adobe that says there's a known issue between this motherboard and Adobe Acrobate 5.5, what's the solution?
Faceless E-mail Tech: Here's an article on how to troubleshoot Windows 2000 startup problems.
Me: Argh!
Ad infinitum.
On that note, is there any big name manufacturer that still makes/supports good home machines? People always ask me recommendations but I'm out of them, other than "Just buy a Mac".
dozens upon dozens of help forums talk about it. Whole articles are dedicated the fighting spyware. If a customer is looking for an answer there is no possible way that he could miss many of these articles.
1) How many average Joe Sixpack computer users are aware of the existance of forums or discussion groups.
2) A number of said spyware programs hijack search pages. Running a search through what appears to be Google may result in viagra ads and links to more spyware.
3) Some spyware physically interrupts the internet connection. How would average user find the online articles with no internet connection or a computer too slow to do anything with?
I work for a small computer repair shop, and 95% of the calls/service requests we get are directly related to spyware/junkware. I can't complain, because Dell refusing support would only increase our business. However, I can't help but feel a bit ashamed that the largest OEM in the industry shifted all consumer phone support overseas, and now refuses to support one of the biggest problems facing home users to date. Why aren't spyware apps considered viruses? Certainly the behavior of some programs borders on virus-like. Does Dell even support virus removal?
I think it's good to be a little bit skeptical first before telling everyone not to buy a Dell. That being said, I have some issues:
1. The validity of supposed 'email' that Dell sent out. According to this site, this refers to Dell's own preloaded applications. OK, but since when would Dell EVER refer to their own applications as "spyware" as they have done in this email. Spyware is now quite a volatile topic, and I would imagine that if Dell did infact have some sort of spyware preloaded on their machines, they'd at least be good enough to lie to us (via their techs) about what it is.
2.3rd Party Applications - As mentioned in (1), I don't think Dell would refer to their own applications as spyware, and if for arguments sake believe the email is geniune, then it refers only to 3rd party applications. So then we have a policy that is in line with Dell's general policy of not supporting 3rd party apps.
Most of us work in an environment where we have to deal with Dell's. I personally think the machines are pretty good and the service isn't bad. I've even gotten the techs help find a conflict with a 3rd party app before on a couple of occasions, but I recognize this is above and beyond the call of duty. Does Dell owe us a duty if we install 3rd party spyware to tell us to use a 3rd party spyware removal tool? What if that spyware removal tool removes an important dll and hoses the system? Then the tech support lines become even more efficient.
I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. I have no idea if that email is real or not, but I think we shouldn't immediately jump all over Dell until we can find out the truth. As it stands now, someone has posted a few sentences on a website somewhere - hardly damning evidence.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Even though it's not very nice to hear that from a computer manufacturer, it is no surprise that Dell won't give out advise on how to break somebody's EULA, even if it protects something as nasty as spyware. Endless lawsuits would loom in Dell's horizons if they chose to do so. The thing I'm a bit more concerned is the timing: if they were so concerned, why not to issue this statement before?
Anyway, my 0.02
R.As Microsoft is quick to tell us: the OS and the browser are the same. They're integrated.
Dell supports Microsoft's OS and thus its browser. All these spyware apps attach to IE and cause huge problems. I had one person hand me a laptop chock full of spyware constantly changing the homepage (one program would change it and another would change it again) while in the background there were more than a few processes trying to download more spyware and another installing more.
Needless to say IE didnt work at all, it was just stuck on some orbitz page and the thing was more or less locked-up, but I did manage to get ad-aware to run.
Most of my friend's PCs problems can be traced to spyware they dont even know about because of how official ActiveX boxes look and the tons of legalese involved.
Dell would rather recommend a full-reinstall than ask the person "This may remove software you've installed" and be off the hook, legally. Instead Joe and Jane Dell owner will lose their baby photos and everything else they didn't backup after being told to reinstall from the rescue CD.
I think Dell has the obligation to be honest with their customers. If the tech believes its spyware he should tell them what it is and how to remove it - if they want.
More generically we need some kind of media campaign or some way to inform people about spyware, perhaps every company giving away free software without spyware should have an obligatory like to Ad Aware or Spybot during the install process.
Check out some of the support forums in the PC world. A significant number of serious problems are fixed simply with Ad Aware or Spybot.
Oh well, Dell gets a negative mark for not being honest with their customers. Tell the family to buy a Mac this year.
That's all well and good, but at least Dell offers warranties on their systems. I build my own systems, but I recommend Dell systems for people who don't have the need or technical knowhow to build their own. I personally don't see a problem with Dell's policy on this... I think it's their right to avoid potential conflicts from software that did not come preinstalled on the user's system, and they're not obligated to offer support for that.
What spyware in XP, are you talking about automated error reporting? Or perhaps automatic windows updates. Both of those warn the user before they are used, msft is deplorable for many of their actions, but automated windows update is good for the grannies and youngsters on the internet, and if centralized automated error reporting is "spyware", then mozilla and NS7 need to be called out for having similar functionality.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Flame me if you like, but I have had pretty good experiences with Dell's tech support on the few occasions I have needed it. Mind you, I only go to them for hardware issues. I don't see that they have any obligation to provide support for stupid things that I might do with my own software.
They aren't scared, this is a corporation - its a question of risk evaluation. There is less risk and lower probable cost in not breaking EULAs, and not advising people to use software that Dell cannot promise won't trash your machine (e.g. Adaware vs. New.net), and which Dell don't even offer support for, than the other option.
fortune -o
* Car manufacturers won't give people instructions on how to fit after market exhausts.
* Mobile phone makers won't guide people through how to fit after market flashing antenna attachments to their phones.
* Apple won't support customers who want to install linux over the top of OSX...
Really... this is predominantely a guy bitching about how Dell won't send people to his website to buy his product (he is, check the article)...
They have no reason to provide support such as this, it's time the consultants should be using to support the Dell Hardware and Dell Software. Let LavaSoft et al handle their own darn support.
I also stopped recommending Dell about a year ago. I had a Dell that stopped working, so I swapped out the perfectly-normal-looking ATX power supply. When I turn on the computer - poof! sparks and smoke. It's not documented _anywhere_ on the Dell website (I checked), but many systems use a nonstandard pinout on a standard ATX connector. Using a normal power supply will burn out the power supply and possibly the motherboard, too. Dell tech support basically told me, "we don't care" when I complained about this. This isn't just ideological - I'd like a computer where fixing it doesn't cause more problems than I started with.
I've had a mixed record with laptops from Dell. One laptop's screen failed last year after about three months of use (and they did replace it). But try getting a wireless minipci card if you didn't get it with a new system. They shuffled me between three departments on the phone, taking about two hours to decide that they finally found the right part number, but it's out of stock. So...helpful. Yeah....
So if you want a company that'll sell you maliciously nonstandard hardware, and keeps a model in stock for about 15 minutes, then Dell's for you...
OK. I was just thinking that since there seems to be little functional difference between a click-through agreement and something just attached to a piece of code that there might be a problem. Plus the word "License" in both the names "End-User License Agreement" and "General Public License" seems it would put them into the same category. But, now that I think about it, copyright should protect it.
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
I have a dell running Linux... I've never had a spyware problem...
Oh, wait. You mean it's the OPERATING SYSTEM that is at fault here, and not the machine?
Oh, wait. You mean that everyone here is flipping out cause Dell won't support users making bad decisions due to an insecure OS?
How is this Dell's fault again? Seriously...
Sig.i>
Such is the dry smugness of a Mac user.
Really, this is a big problem, though. Companies seem to be taking more and more liberties with users' computers. I, for one, am disturbed by the recent push towards cataloging each of us in massive databases so they can understand our buying patterns and market goods directly to us. I consider such invasive advertising to be boarding on threatening; it gets my blood up.
Perhaps I'm overreacting, but our capitalist system seems to be changing from one of the free market towards one you might call the "compulsory market." We are being coerced into buying things we don't need to "improve the economy." Screw that, I never see any of those fat corporate profits from the recent productivity increases. It's not just about money, it's about realizing that there are more important things than money and market share and commerce in general. When will advertisers realize that methods like telemarketing and spyware are going too far and pissing off more potential customrers than can be made up by the suckers who pad their bottom line by biting at the hook? We have to protest not only spyware, spam and telemarketing but also firms that associate with known offenders, which Dell is trending perilously close to doing.
Electric Monkey Pants
This should have never been moderated up in the first place. Removing spyware is not in violation of the warranty. Everything that's been posted about this (that has been rational and based on facts) has indicated that the removal of spyware may violate the licence agreements of other software that was installed with those programs. Read some of the EULAs every once in awhile and you will quickly find that partial removal of the software that's being installed (meaning: you keep the app but remove the spyware) is expressly forbidden.
Of course, if you as an individual want to risk being sued by these nasty companies (which isn't likely to happen since they can't possibly sue you for much) for violation of a EULA, go right ahead. Dell can't risk that kind of nonsense because there are evil lawyers out there who would sue Dell over it, given the chance.
Remember, this is the new economy, where if you can't come up with good idea and working business model, you can still make a profit by coming up with a half-assed idea and finding people to sue for damages.
The real problem is when we do clear out all spyware, pop-ups, and other crap that drains preformance, we quickly disable it. We either use tools, reg hacks, or msconfig. and it is gone.
Now when we do that to a users computer, especialy a home user. apps no longer work, their taskbar nolonger tells the tempature, gator no longer saves passwords, that talking monkey or pariot is gone, that flag is gone, and the wallpaper dont change anymore. To them, we broke it. It dont work now and it did before.
The real problem is that it takes so much work to educate those users.
My solution, reformat and reinstall. (use any os except the system restore)
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
all the spyware shit on it.
Dell is obviously getting paid for all this crap they are installing on your computers.
Until people speak up and then take their business elsewhere they will continue to abuse your ass.
3) factory installed spyware.
Ummm.... where in the article, the letter, ANYWHERE did it say this?
Just because Dell techs aren't allowed to help callers remove spyware (probably to keep Gator and its ilk from suing the pants off of them), doesn't mean that Dell has installed spyware itself. That's a very big and reckless jump you made.
The
I'm an on-site computer technician. Probably 25-33% of my business is fixing spyware/adware-related issues. Out of my four jobs today, running Ad-Aware fully fixed three of them. The fourth also had a virus. (Yet spyware was causing more problems than the virus.)
I say more power to them. Heck, I love Microsoft. Without all the security holes in Windows XP, I wouldn't have much business. (I even got to be on the local TV news as an expert on computers when blaster hit. My recommendation, on the air, was to buy a Mac, or run Linux.)
No, this post is not a troll. MS' bad security is good for me. Dell's new decision is good for me. Heck, anything that is bad for the user is good for me. (Although my PowerBook, which I carry with me to appointments, and tend to pull out at least once per appointment to make notes, or look things up, is probably bad for me. People see that I use a Mac, ask me which is better, and I flat out tell them. I wonder how many ex-clients are using a Mac now, and haven't called me because of it?)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
It's called "IT'S A THIRD PARTY APPLICATION". Dell doesn't provide Tech support on your Microsoft app so why should they help you with spyware removal and/or installation. 9 times out of 10 they installed a piece of software that came with it.
I hate Dell with a passion but this is just like refusing to help them because Office 2k screwed up their system. Restore cd or call Microsoft. End of line.
Some spyware programs have the capacity to prevent my idiot (only in regards to tech) father from using Internet Explorer? The same reason he ends up getting all those virii and spyware anyway?
Well, hell, I'll take three of those! 99% of his computer problems could be fixed if he just switched to Mozilla, ran his antivirus software (switching to OpenOffice instead of MSOffice might help) and stopped accepting click-throughs that pop up on webpages.
100% of his computer problems could be fixed by switching to Linux, but he'd come up with 10% new ones.
-- Funksaw
Of course, the correct solution for Dell would be to tell vendors that they will not ship computers with software that has EULAs that enforce such a blatant screwing of Dell's customers.
I believe the hypothetical EULAs that kid-noodle is referring to are not EULAs for software pre-installed on the computer, but rather for software that the user installs himself.
For example: Imagine somebody purchases a Dell, then hooks it up to the Internet and downloads Software A, which includes - and by its EULA can only legally be run with - Spyware B. Now imagine that the user, irritated that B is having its way with his computer, calls Dell tech support for help. If Dell instructs the user to download an Ad-Aware workalike that delete B but leaves A still installed on the system, then Dell has put the user in violation of an EULA.
Now telling a friend to violate an EULA in such a manner would hardly place any of us in a moral dilemma; however, it does present a potential legal issue, and one that cannot safely be disregarded by a company with as many clients as Dell. I, for one, see how this could be a necessary move on Dell's part.
Think of it this way: When you buy a new car you are given a warranty on what the manufacturer has sold to you, but you cannot rightfully expect the manufacturer to warranty the new ignition control chip you put in. This is no different.
The article says:
Since when does copyright protect the "right" to restrict people from removing information? I would think ripping an unwanted page out of a book and throwing it away would be unquestionably fair use.What are we going to have next? Is McDonald's tell us not to remove the pickles on their hamburgers because they have an agreement with some unknown pickle vendor?
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
I have but three questions.
At what point does "cost cutting" (sometimes aka "corporate greed") go from being "bad" to "acceptable" or even "good?"
Second question: As Microsoft Windows OSs are literally 3rd party software, does this memo (if authentic) indicate that Dell will stop supporting Windows or any other Microsoft OS?
Third and final question: Would or does this memo prevent a tech from telling a customer something along the lines of "I'm sorry [sir/ma'am], but it's company policy that we are not to recommend spyware removal tools, such as AdAware. Even if I wanted to, I could not tell you to visit lavasoftusa.com or advise you to install and run that program. I am sorry again, but it's company policy that we are not allowed to inform or advise you of such things."
~U.P.
Eat the Path.
Then explain why it happens with Active Desktop turned off or even completely removed?
Transmissions taking place without the operators knowledge or consent are unacceptable, 'harmless' or not.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
... that just tells me that they recognize you as a sad geek with no self-respect. Not necessarily saying you are, just saying that's what they think of you. "Bah, he doesn't have anything better to do with his time, anyway."
Let me put this in perspective:
- if a car engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to fix their car for free? Nope.
- if an electronics engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to repair their TV for free? Nope.
- if a plumber lived next door, would they call him every month to unclog their toilet for free? Nope.
- if a skilled carpenter lived next door, would they call him every month to fix some piece of furniture for free? Nope.
Why? Basically because they have more respect for that plumber than for you. They can understand that:
1. Plumbing is real work, and it deserves compensation. On the other hand they likely see you not as an "expert", but rather as "bah, even kids know this stuff. If we only had a 10 year old, we'd ask him instead."
2. They can understand that the plumber has better stuff to do with his time. Like, dunno, grab a can of beer and watch the football game. Whereas what they think of you is more likely the exact opposite "some sad geek who surely has nothing to do with his time anyway."
3. Also because that plumber has enough self-respect to say "no". Whereas you seems to measure your worth by how much other people abused your time. Well, keep flattering yourself, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you. Because that's all it is: taking advantage of someone who can't say no.
So, dunno, personally I'd rather be know as the "bad" guy who will _not_ fix your computer. (Well, not unless you're willing to pay my consultant fee.)
I don't give a flying ____ (sexual intercourse) if some random neighbour considers me an expert or not. What really matter is if my boss considers me an expert.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Definitely seconded. Most people who don't or haven't worked in tech support don't get this. I've actually had only mild aquaintances actually ring up for computer help - the moment I got in from work. I've even had one person ring up with a problem with getting pictures from a mobile phone they bought that day. Hello? Try calling the people you bought it from, dammit!
Would you ring up a solicitor out of the blue, only knowing someone who knows them, expecting free legal advice? I think not. And don't even get me started on people not even reading what's on the damn screen on front of them. Once word gets out that you know about PCs, people will start ringing, or trying to collar you to talk about PCs etc. People may label you mean for putting your foot down, but it's your free time they're wasting. (rant mode off).
Unless Dell is the one who runs Ad-Aware on the user's machine, how can Dell possibly be held accountable over the terms of a EULA which they've never heard of, never seen, and certainly never agreed to?
What Dell is saying is the equivalent of a Best Buy employee telling you "I can't tell you where we keep the CD-Rs, because you might use them to commit a crime and then I'd be liable."
No, something more sinister is going on here...
We have a neighbor who is a vet, and when she comes over, she gives the kitties a free fifteen-second checkover while scritching their heads. There have been times when the older kitty has not looked well, and, after much deliberation, we've asked her for a second opinion.
When Blaster came out, it hit their computer, and I offered to get rid of it, as well as patch up their machine to the latest Service Pack, et al. It was our way of thanks for some much-welcomed advice about the cats. To their credit, they haven't asked for any further help, but it's available, but it needed, I will avail myself again.
There are some professions where you are the "walking free advice", and you get to respect that when you meet a professional 'cousin'. It's also a hallmark of good friends to ask for that help sparingly.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
...I'd treat them the same as the ones I build: step one is to repartition and install the OS the way I want it. Spyware? what spyware?
Depends. Does RealOne Player count as spyware?
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
= 9J =