NWN - Hordes of the Underdark in Stores

Playing it now! by katpurz · 2003-12-04 16:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

More camera control...finally Small level compared to previous expansion or original module, but still fun... Mostly a developers/builders set of tiles/creatures.. One of the funnest games (NWN) I've played in years...

Note to Linux users! by Cyph · 2003-12-04 16:00 · Score: 5, Informative

The expansion CD does not have a native Linux installer yet, and the binaries necessary to play this game on Linux haven't been released yet. Their ETA is "early next week", when they release the 1.60 patch for Windows users to get the games in sync. So if you're going to rush out and buy this expansion, don't expect to be able to play it immediately, as it will not work just yet.

Re:Note to Linux users! by afidel · 2003-12-04 19:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well they had that spat with RAD where RAD had claimed that they would have Bink support ready for Linux and then wanted to charge Bioware a SIX figure sum for the pleasure. Then they had Borland release a version of Kylix so anemic that the toolset couldn't be ported. Then they had WotC make them jump through all sorts of hoops to get clearance for the 'new' platform. Trust me it would have been MUCH easier for Bioware to just give up and drop Linux support since it brought in so little additional revenue and cost them tons of time for lawyers, management, and developers. Not only that but they got HUGE negative vibe and communications from a vocal minority of the Linux user base. Overall I think they showed some real tenacity in eventually getting the port out.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:Note to Linux users! by Jeff_at_RAD · 2003-12-05 00:57 · Score: 5, Informative

What spat with RAD? This is completely untrue.

I love the Bioware guys - they are one of the best developers we get to work with.

They have never evaluated Bink for Linux and we have never quoted them a price, so there hasn't been anything to disagree about, even if we wanted to.

And in any case, one Bink license fee (which is way less than six figures), is nothing compared to the amount of money Bioware spends to create the Linux version of their game in the first place (it's pretty cool that they spend all this time and money actually, since the Linux gamer user base is so tiny - even compared to Mac).

They just put this expansion pack together very very quickly (for all three platforms at once even!), so they didn't have time to integrate any major new stuff yet.

->Jeff
RAD Game Tools

Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-04 16:03 · Score: 5, Funny

I for one welcome our new Hordes of Underlords

Mac? by Nermal6693 · 2003-12-04 16:04 · Score: 5, Informative

There's no official Mac version of SoU, but it's possible to install the latest update for original NWN, then copy the SoU data files into it. I wonder whether this will also work for Underdark?

Great by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-04 16:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

Personally, I thought NWN was a great game, and Hordes of the Underdark looks like a worthy expansion. I'll certainly be getting it - I loved the original, and it is one of the only recent games to provide a native Linux version (I run Gentoo, so it's either Winex or native Linux for me) I'm happy and proud to support Bioware provided they keep producing Linux versions of their games. I know they were a little late with NWN, but at least they were true to their word, and if we show them there is a demand for Linux games they will surely take notice and improve their linux support even further.

I know this is offtopic but, by Tibor+the+Hun · 2003-12-04 16:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

where does bioware get their quality from? their KOTOR is just amazing. (although i can't compare it to any other RPG, since it's the first one i've ever played)
it just goes to show that quality can still be found in new games, as opposed to crap we find in sw:galaxies, enter the matrix, or deus ex 2.
my hat's off to bioware...

--
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.

Re:I know this is offtopic but, by Daemongar · 2003-12-04 16:35 · Score: 5, Informative

Their quality is from, I think, the timing of their first game. The first quality game from Bioware was BG1 - which had the good fortune of being released when there was backlash against poor quality/rushed cRPG's (Daggerfall, Descent to Undermountain, etc.) The attention to quality/immersiveness set them apart from other standard cRPG fare and gave them a market edge.

The company, Bioware, was actually comprized of doctors in Canada who really enjoyed gaming. I know this because I used to be a regular poster to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg and when Bioware was in it's infancy Dr. Ray Mazurka (one of the founders) used to post all the time with updates to BG and whatnot. Fun guy ;)

He doesn't post there much now, but Bioware has already established itself. BTW: I just started NWN a week ago and love the damn thing...

Anyone disappointed at NWN by Brian_Ellenberger · 2003-12-04 16:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

Was anyone else disappointed at NWN? I haven't played any of the expansions, but I found the original game lacking in many ways to BG and Torment. You can definitely tell that Black Isle's story telling abilities are sorely missed. It never seemed to draw you in or give you any "cool" story experiences.

Secondly, the henchmen were utterly lacking. Part of the fun of the Infinite Engine games were the companions. I loved the companion interactions and definitely made the store much more enjoyable and meaningful. It wasn't just that you beat some badguy, but you had a journey. NWN henchmen seemed like a hack. Something bolted on as to not make it Diablo

Third, the tile engine was way too obvious. In many ways the Infinity Engines looked better. How many random identical looking caves can someone go through?

Lastly, the fights sucked. Mostly slashing weak monsters and an occasional boss. Of course, with only two companions there is only so much you can do.

I do think Bioware redeemed themselves with Knights of the Old Republic. While still a bit contrived, they have improved in their story telling and the combat and companion systems are greatly improved.

Brian Ellenberger

Re:Anyone disappointed at NWN by arth1 · 2003-12-05 02:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

Was anyone else disappointed at NWN? I haven't played any of the expansions, but I found the original game lacking in many ways to BG and Torment. You can definitely tell that Black Isle's story telling abilities are sorely missed. It never seemed to draw you in or give you any "cool" story experiences.

I agree. One thing that's sorely missing is to be immersed in dialogs. Sure, there's dialogs, of sorts, but it's a "click all choices in turn" interface, and not something where every choice limits what choices you get later on.
Something that drew you even more into BG (and to smaller extent, BGII) was the audible speech that often occurred. All the way from the first "Hi, I'm Imoen!" and "Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!" to how people in your party would randomly talk to each other -- bantering, trading insults, or even flirting.
It all lent credibility to the NPCs and the overall athmosphere. BGII didn't do as well as the original, but was still WAY better than NWN.

Third, the tile engine was way too obvious. In many ways the Infinity Engines looked better. How many random identical looking caves can someone go through?

It also suffers from the Quake frame rate improvisation syndrome -- darkness. By turning everything darker, you have to render less, and can make the game halfway playable with a mere $500 CPU and $300 graphics card upgrade. Then skew the midtones in the final result towards blindingly white and yellow, to give the impression that it's not really that dark.
Well, it is. This is one game that doesn't look a bit better in 32-bit than 16-bit colour, due to the lack of tones and high and harsh contrast.

Temple of Elemental Evil is something in-between, where the developers at least have TRIED getting some of the athmosphere from Baldur's Gate in, while still allowing much of the 3D and advanced features of Neverwinter Nights. Unfortunately, it's just as buggy as their other D&D flop -- Pools of Radiance. Even patched. To the point that it crashes instantly every time I try to have my party cast more than two spells at a time.

It's back to nethack and moria for me, unless I give BGII SoA a second try. It was quite frankly boring compared to the original BG, but compared to the latest offerings, at least it has *some* depth to it.

Regards,
--
*Art

Re:yes! by smeat · 2003-12-04 16:17 · Score: 5, Informative

There is a camera hack for NWN, but it has not been updated to the latest versions.

Nwvault camera hack page.

smeat!

--
"Let's not bicker about who killed who." Monty Python

Other Horde Reviews by syr · 2003-12-04 16:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

Although the number of reviews for Underdark is still quite small the initial reactions of critics seem to be positive. Underdark really lets you experience some Drow action and it seems as if its a great match with the NWN engine.

The last expansion pack for NWN was a bit of a let-down (it averaged a 79%) but this pack seems to have much better chances.

Does anyone have any statistics on how the intitial release and first expansion pack fared at retail? I am looking forward to a full-blown sequel, but the publisher seems here more willing to issue a "Gold Edition" than to invest in a new full game.

Does anyone else find these games a bit linear? by God+Hates+Liberals · 2003-12-04 16:34 · Score: 5, Interesting

I really enjoyed Neverwinter's game engine, and found it expounded upon all others, but storyline still hasn't evolved beyond 'pick the response which you think will lead to another exchange between this character'

They throw Alignment in there, and then give you 'good' and 'evil' roles to play, which consist basically of:

Good? Offer to do everything for free, see most of the game.

Evil? Push for a bit of profit in every encounter, get shut out about a third of the time. Miss that much of the game.

You'll find me buying the expansion pack where player's choices are the axial decision in gameplay, not the plot-designer's.

Re:Does anyone else find these games a bit linear? by dubiousdave · 2003-12-04 17:00 · Score: 4, Informative

Look through some of the user-written modules in the Hall of Fame or in the Top-Rated section of the Vault. Some of them are written specifically for evil characters. Some give you options that are more interesting than the good/evil options you described. In some you get experience for accomplishing goals, rather than for killing monsters. In some you have completely customized systems of magic. It really depends on the creativity of the module designers. The engine is amazingly flexible.
If you want an experience more like pen and paper D&D, play multiplayer with a Dungeon Master. The DM has a great deal of control over what happens in the game, and can directly control NPCs to help eliminate the bad Turing Test feel of some dialog scripts.

--
Thank you. Drive through.

www.nordock.net by XorNand · 2003-12-04 16:39 · Score: 4, Informative

NWN by itself is an average game. What extends it as one of the most amazing games of all time is it's unprecedented "hackability". Nordock.net is an excellent example. It started as a small module written for the friends of the creater, Marc. It's since grown into a three server, persistant world with a user base of several thousand. There are typically 10-20 people in-game at any given time. This makes the game much more friendly, IMHO, than commerical MMORGs; there are much less powergamers and more role-playing. Plus they have about a dozen DMs, most of which are really cool and regulary run spontanious quests.

If you want to give it a shot, here are the server addresses:

nordock1.nordock.net:5121
nordock1.nordock.net:5122
nordock1.nordock.net:5124

They all share the same character vault, so you can play on any of them.

--
Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"

Re:first post by Cordath · 2003-12-04 16:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

That is a debatable point since the ammount of actual role playing going on in MMORPG's like Everquest is actually quite minimal. In truth, the whole MMORPG paradigm is just not suited to telling an involving story. It is especially unsuited to telling a story where the player gets to play someone particularily interesting as opposed to yet another "adventurer" out to whack a few snakes and move on to higher levels and bigger snakes.

MMORPG's are certainly highly addictive, but so far, have not really progressed much beyond being a skinner's box wraped up in some fantasy and garnished with ample opportunity for socialization. (not entirely a bad thing) Single player RPG's, on the other hand, are a lot like interactive novels. Games like NWN that provide robust development tools to end-users are essentially interactive novels which encourage fan-fiction.

MMORPG's and games like NWN both have their distinctive niches and, while they may be based around the same sort of fantasy universes, are completely different animals which are both unlikely to go extinct anytime soon.

bioware + linux by sdibb · 2003-12-04 17:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

I gotta say kudos to Bioware for actually going out on a limb and making an official Linux version of their game. That just rocks.

Not only that, but I believe the company has totally raised the bar for computer game standards. An auto-updater is included, support for Mac and Linux, standalone servers, tons of downloads on their server (they even host a fan-made movie), etc, etc.

I hope they come out with more mods, or at the very least keep improving on a really fun game.

Re:Too busy! by ctrl-alt-elite · 2003-12-04 17:11 · Score: 3, Funny

I hear that. Both games are chomping at the bit to make me fail my finals...

Re:yes! by Maul · 2003-12-04 17:12 · Score: 3, Informative

IIRC, there is finally full control over the camera AND fog distance in HOTU and the upcoming patch for non-HOTU installs.

--

"You spoony bard!" -Tellah

Module creation by MilenCent · 2003-12-04 18:12 · Score: 4, Informative

I wasn't too thrilled with the "official campaign," (but I'm something of a game snob), but the module creation ability *really* mades this game. I even made a Roguelike module for the thing (though it required a lot of working around of Roguelike-unfriendly design assumptions, and I haven't had time to work on it much lately).

Also, I hear that the Hordes of the Underdark finally lets your characters advance to epic (over 20) levels. *That* is cool.

Is it just me .... by ProfMoriarty · 2003-12-04 18:20 · Score: 3, Funny

or does BioWare need to lay off of the insults ...

I mean really ... we already know that anyone who plays it gets a "monitor tan" ... but to call them "Underdark" is just too much

... and the hordes will leave once they pass through the checkouts ...

--
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.

I have commented on NWN earlier... by Jugalator · 2003-12-04 21:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

... and that was some negative remarks that quickly became considered as flames by NWN zealots. :-)

So I'd just like to say that HotU seems to be great! In the end, after these two (?) years, BioWare has produced a VERY feature rich system for creating campaigns. I haven't played it for long, but already noticed lots of new major features in the Toolset:

- Skies depending on tileset
- Robes realistically flowing as the character wearing them walks around
- Beholders, mindflayers, dracoliches, even OOZE :-D (with a beautiful model with skeleton parts floating inside its body)
- Weapon and armor crafting, potion brewing, oh my...
- Support for epic levels, with epic feats and all
- Lots of new prestige classes
- Attachable demon/angel/dragon/butterfly/bird wings to characters, attachable tails of several variations as well. Making cool celestial, demonic and draconic humanoids just became so much easier.

--
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!

Camera can be unlocked already! by WWWWolf · 2003-12-04 22:37 · Score: 3, Informative

The camera can be unlocked already in all modern versions, they just made it unlocked by default in HotU.

To unlock, go to console (tilde) and type "unlockcamera 1", or go to the talk bar and say "##unlockcamera 1".

To make it permanent, edit nwnplayer.ini - add "UnlockCamera=1" to [Control Options] section

Official Campaign not multiplayer by The_great_orgazmo · 2003-12-05 01:31 · Score: 4, Informative

Beware though, unlike the other two releases, the official Hordes Campaign cannot be played in multiplayer mode, so as far as i'm concerned the coolest part of these type of games, Roleplaying, isnt possible in this release (not in the official campaign anyway) If you check the bioware forums you'll notice alot of pissed off people posting.

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